Soft tissue changes with RME (including eyes)

[optimisticzoomer]

This study was using RME as opposed to MSE. However, if we look at this image, it appears that RME produces more stress around the eye area than MSE:

(a = RME, b = MSE)
Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6168444/

So whether that means RME produces more changes in eye area, I dont know.


In the study on soft tissue changes from RME, these were the results (in mm):

As you can see, the total mean increase in intercanthal distance was 2.52mm, and the outer canthal distance increase was 1.98mm. This means the soft tissues of the eye moved out, which would suggest the bone did too. So there should be a minor increase in IPD.

The average expansion in this study was 5.2mm, so with a 10mm+ expansion, it suggests you could maybe get at least a 3mm increase in intercanthal distance, so maybe an increase in IPD. As I mentioned before though, RME seems to produce more stress on the eye area, so with MSE you might get less change.

Here is the study: https://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S2176-94512012000500022

 

[spark]

impossible

 

[optimisticzoomer]

impossible

What is?

 

[spark]

What is?

I don't believe a tooth bone expander would affect the eye area more than a bone borne one. Were the people of the same age?

 

[optimisticzoomer]

I don't believe a tooth bone expander would affect the eye area more than a bone borne one. Were the people of the same age?

All it says was it was a "dried human skull". So they weren't living

 

[optimisticzoomer]

I don't believe a tooth bone expander would affect the eye area more than a bone borne one. Were the people of the same age?

Either way, those results beneath the stress study show eye changes from RME. So if MSE affected it more, then that's even more eye changes. But the stress model doesn't appear to show that

 

[Deleted member 685]

@betamanlet @retard thoughts?

 

[antiantifa]

Legit, slow expansion causes increase in eye distance, eventually a tilt develops as well. But you need monstrous IMW for that.

 

[optimisticzoomer]

Legit, slow expansion causes increase in eye distance, eventually a tilt develops as well. But you need monstrous IMW for that.

My imw is like 42mm but that's cos of tipping. Without tipping it's like 38mm. so I could do an 11mm expansion and then get my teeth tipping fixed orthodontically. Bite relationship with lower jaw would probably be fucked tho

 

[RecessedPrettyboy]

Just a reminder that if you have a normal IMW and get a 10mm or even a 5mm expansion rip to any chance of getting hollow cheeks

 

[optimisticzoomer]

Just a reminder that if you have a normal IMW and get a 10mm or even a 5mm expansion rip to any chance of getting hollow cheeks

My ipd is a lot more of an issue

 

[antiantifa]

My imw is like 42mm but that's cos of tipping. Without tipping it's like 38mm. so I could do an 11mm expansion and then get my teeth tipping fixed orthodontically. Bite relationship with lower jaw would probably be fucked tho

Unlikely that you will ever get to 49mm IMW, even prehistoric man didn't have IMW that wide.
Also your bite relationship will stay fine.

Just a reminder that if you have a normal IMW and get a 10mm or even a 5mm expansion rip to any chance of getting hollow cheeks

Yes, if you only expand the palate, but if you do it slowly the zygo's expand as well, it won't work like that.
Also expansion isn't permanent, you need to tongue to support the structure.

I'd rather look like this than have Auschwitz face with hollow cheeks.

 

[MSEFM]

I wouldn't be surprised if this level of small change on the order of fractions of a millimeter up to a couple millimeters might have occurred at some facial landmarks with my MSE treatment. It's really challenging to align before and after photos to make this kind of comparison. The only obvious change is an improvement in my forward head posture, but this could just be incidental. I think my eyes look a little more hooded with more positive canthal tilt, but that's just from the orientation of my head. The IPD isn't noticeably wider. I wish the bridge of my nose would expand, but I can't say that it has in the pictures.

 

[optimisticzoomer]

I wouldn't be surprised if this level of small change on the order of fractions of a millimeter up to a couple millimeters might have occurred at some facial landmarks with my MSE treatment. It's really challenging to align before and after photos to make this kind of comparison. The only obvious change is an improvement in my forward head posture, but this could just be incidental. I think my eyes look a little more hooded with more positive canthal tilt, but that's just from the orientation of my head. The IPD isn't noticeably wider. I wish the bridge of my nose would expand, but I can't say that it has in the pictures.

How many mm did u expand?

 

[MSEFM]

How many mm did u expand?

maxed out my 10mm MSE

 

[optimisticzoomer]

maxed out my 10mm MSE

What is ur imw now or before

 

[MSEFM]

What is ur imw now or before

Went from around 36 to around 46 millimeters between the lingual edges of the first molars.

 

[JawGuyFatFaceGuy]

This study was using RME as opposed to MSE. However, if we look at this image, it appears that RME produces more stress around the eye area than MSE:
View attachment 931686
(a = RME, b = MSE)
Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6168444/

So whether that means RME produces more changes in eye area, I dont know.


In the study on soft tissue changes from RME, these were the results (in mm):
View attachment 931689View attachment 931691

As you can see, the total mean increase in intercanthal distance was 2.52mm, and the outer canthal distance increase was 1.98mm. This means the soft tissues of the eye moved out, which would suggest the bone did too. So there should be a minor increase in IPD.

View attachment 931696

The average expansion in this study was 5.2mm, so with a 10mm+ expansion, it suggests you could maybe get at least a 3mm increase in intercanthal distance, so maybe an increase in IPD. As I mentioned before though, RME seems to produce more stress on the eye area, so with MSE you might get less change.

Here is the study: https://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S2176-94512012000500022

Wtf is RME? MRE?

 

[optimisticzoomer]

Wtf is RME? MRE?

Rapid maxillary expansion

 

[JawGuyFatFaceGuy]

Rapid maxillary expansion

And how does it occur?

 

[sandcelmuttcel]

3mm? lmao give up

 

[optimisticzoomer]

3mm? lmao give up

2.5mm of intercanthal distance in the study. And almost 2mm for outer corners of eyes. Therefore 2-2.5mm ipd For a 5mm expansion - in the scientific study

 

[sandcelmuttcel]

2.5mm of intercanthal distance in the study. And almost 2mm for outer corners of eyes. Therefore 2-2.5mm ipd For a 5mm expansion - in the scientific study

that's barely noticable someone better do 10mm expansion then and idk if that's possible for the average person.

 

[optimisticzoomer]

And how does it occur?

Not exactly sure of the different between it and normal palate expander. I dont think it uses micro implants, unlike mse

 

[optimisticzoomer]

that's barely noticable someone better do 10mm expansion then and idk if that's possible for the average person.

But the question was whether it is possible. and this study seems to suggest it is. Even 2mm of ipd would be good for my 58-59mm ipd lmao

 

[MSEFM]

In the study on soft tissue changes from MSE, the statistically significant changes centered around the paranasal area and were often asymmetrical:

https://62222079-9554-470a-8702-b9943649d392.filesusr.com/ugd/87f545_241a81b90ee449009084ba3c321e9234.pdf

 

[sandcelmuttcel]

In the study on soft tissue changes from MSE, the statistically significant changes centered around the paranasal area and were often asymmetrical:

https://62222079-9554-470a-8702-b9943649d392.filesusr.com/ugd/87f545_241a81b90ee449009084ba3c321e9234.pdf

does mse help paranasal hollowing??

 

[optimisticzoomer]

In the study on soft tissue changes from MSE, the statistically significant changes centered around the paranasal area and were often asymmetrical:

https://62222079-9554-470a-8702-b9943649d392.filesusr.com/ugd/87f545_241a81b90ee449009084ba3c321e9234.pdf

Yeah cos that's around the area where the actual appliance is

 

[MSEFM]

does mse help paranasal hollowing??

I guess that study suggests it could. Looking in the mirror, I think my midface looks a little fuller, but it's hard to pinpoint on before and after pictures.

 

[optimisticzoomer]

I guess that study suggests it could. Looking in the mirror, I think my midface looks a little fuller, but it's hard to pinpoint on before and after pictures.

How much wider does ur nose look?

 

[MSEFM]

How much wider does ur nose look?

The bridge of my nose deviates to the left. I had hoped that I might see some widening on the right side. Since my forward head posture is better in the after picture, the tilt of my head tilts makes my nose appear longer with less visibility of the nostrils. So it is hard to compare how the shape of my nose has changed. There might be some very subtle widening of the ala, columella, and sidewalls of the nose, but not to the extent that people would notice. Looking in the mirror, my right nostril started narrower than the left and I think this might be a little more symmetrical now, but it's still narrower.

 

[LebenistneHure]

2.5mm of intercanthal distance in the study. And almost 2mm for outer corners of eyes. Therefore 2-2.5mm ipd For a 5mm expansion - in the scientific study

Uhm, are you sure soft tissue movement translates to bone movement, or eye movement itself? Cuz if so this would be pretty significant. I'd kill a newborn for 3 mms of ipd tbh, I'm that fucked harmonywise

 

[optimisticzoomer]

Uhm, are you sure soft tissue movement translates to bone movement, or eye movement itself? Cuz if so this would be pretty significant. I'd kill a newborn for 3 mms of ipd tbh, I'm that fucked harmonywise

Well otherwise what would happen to your eyes? Your pupil wouldn't be centred. also seeing as mse is primarily moving the bone, and there are more bone than soft tissue changes around the nose and mouth, you'd presume this would be the case with the eyes too

 

[LebenistneHure]

Well otherwise what would happen to your eyes? Your pupil wouldn't be centred. also seeing as mse is primarily moving the bone, and there are more bone than soft tissue changes around the nose and mouth, you'd presume this would be the case with the eyes too

You mean RME? Also, one problem with this study is it was done on 12 year olds, so this the likelihood of this working on any of us goes down as we age... I've seen this study before, but dismissed it because it wasn't done on an adult.

 

[optimisticzoomer]

You mean RME? Also, one problem with this study is it was done on 12 year olds, so this the likelihood of this working on any of us goes down as we age... I've seen this study before, but dismissed it because it wasn't done on an adult.

No I mean mse. I'm presuming mse should have similar effects, even though it shows less stress around the eyes than RME, which is surprising

 

[LebenistneHure]

No I mean mse. I'm presuming mse should have similar effects, even though it shows less stress around the eyes than RME, which is surprising

Yeah it's counterintuitive, but still, not sure the outcome would be the same in someone 20+ as opposed to 12 yr olds this study was conducted on. Well we can keep on searching for the holy grail of IPD increase I suppose.

 

[optimisticzoomer]

Yeah it's counterintuitive, but still, not sure the outcome would be the same in someone 20+ as opposed to 12 yr olds this study was conducted on. Well we can keep on searching for the holy grail of IPD increase I suppose.

There's no reason to give up on this atm. So for now, this still could be the holy grail

 

[optimisticzoomer]

Yeah it's counterintuitive, but still, not sure the outcome would be the same in someone 20+ as opposed to 12 yr olds this study was conducted on. Well we can keep on searching for the holy grail of IPD increase I suppose.

Well if the maxilla is split by the same amount, then surely it shouldn't make much difference

 

[LebenistneHure]

Well if the maxilla is split by the same amount, then surely it shouldn't make much difference

Yeah, it would make sense in that case. But that's the part we don't know, if splitting to that degree could occur in an adult. I guess you could expand your palate, but how much of that is teeth tipping and how much actual skeletal expansion I can't tell. I haven't researched any of this so I'd appreciate someone chiming in.

 

[optimisticzoomer]

Yeah, it would make sense in that case. But that's the part we don't know, if splitting to that degree could occur in an adult. I guess you could expand your palate, but how much of that is teeth tipping and how much actual skeletal expansion I can't tell. I haven't researched any of this so I'd appreciate someone chiming in.

Ronald ead got a 10mm expansion from mse, which I think is almost all skeletal

 

[LebenistneHure]

Bump, any news on this? I still need those IPD points to achieve harmony…

 

[Aladin]

This study was using RME as opposed to MSE. However, if we look at this image, it appears that RME produces more stress around the eye area than MSE:
View attachment 931686
(a = RME, b = MSE)
Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6168444/

So whether that means RME produces more changes in eye area, I dont know.


In the study on soft tissue changes from RME, these were the results (in mm):
View attachment 931689View attachment 931691

As you can see, the total mean increase in intercanthal distance was 2.52mm, and the outer canthal distance increase was 1.98mm. This means the soft tissues of the eye moved out, which would suggest the bone did too. So there should be a minor increase in IPD.

View attachment 931696

The average expansion in this study was 5.2mm, so with a 10mm+ expansion, it suggests you could maybe get at least a 3mm increase in intercanthal distance, so maybe an increase in IPD. As I mentioned before though, RME seems to produce more stress on the eye area, so with MSE you might get less change.

Here is the study: https://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S2176-94512012000500022

avg dentist is a war criminal for not doing this shit instead of brace fucking teens into a life time of suffering

 

[optimisticzoomer]

Bump, any news on this? I still need those IPD points to achieve harmony…

No, this is pretty much it. The only way to know would be through doing it I think unfortunately

 

[mvp2v1]

No, this is pretty much it. The only way to know would be through doing it I think unfortunately

Why would the tooth born expander achieve greater IPD change? Where does teh IPD change come from? Is it from growth at suture sites? Is it from brown remodeling? Where is it comming form?

 

[letsdoit]

I don't believe a tooth bone expander would affect the eye area more than a bone borne one. Were the people of the same age?

An RME isn’t a tooth borne expander?
Right?
I had one growing up and it ascended me

 

[letsdoit]

No, this is pretty much it. The only way to know would be through doing it I think unfortunately

Isn’t an RME only for kids, or can a 20 yr old get one again?
I had one at 12 but need it again

 

[spark]

An RME isn’t a tooth borne expander?
Right?
I had one growing up and it ascended me

It is but a child has a very soft suture so it will split even with a tooth borne expander. It doesn't work at all in adults.

 

[letsdoit]

It is but a child has a very soft suture so it will split even with a tooth borne expander. It doesn't work at all in adults.

I had one as a child, but it isn’t a “tooth borne expander” like alf etc. It produced insane aesthetic results for me as a kid.
It’s impossible for me to get one again as a 20 yr old?
I’m fine with an MSE but pretty sure this produced way better aesthetic results.

 

[spark]

I had one as a child, but it isn’t a “tooth borne expander” like alf etc. It produced insane aesthetic results for me as a kid.
It’s impossible for me to get one again as a 20 yr old?
I’m fine with an MSE but pretty sure this produced way better aesthetic results.

Alf only pushes the arches slightly, RME is a tooth borne expander but it splits the suture and expands the midface as a whole because in children it's enough force to split the suture. It also pushes onto the teeth so even in kids it's gonna be inferior to MSE but since both work and MSE is more invasive why not use RME. RME doesn't work at all in adults the force is too low to split the midpalatal suture but high enough to fck up your teeth.

 

[letsdoit]

Alf only pushes the arches slightly, RME is a tooth borne expander but it splits the suture and expands the midface as a whole because in children it's enough force to split the suture. It also pushes onto the teeth so even in kids it's gonna be inferior to MSE but since both work and MSE is more invasive why not use RME. RME doesn't work at all in adults the force is too low to split the midpalatal suture but high enough to fck up your teeth.

Have you done any expansion yourself? What’d you use?
That’s probably why when I got RME as a kid I looked way better and my mandible grew along with it.
I’m currently at a 31 IMW extremely narrow, and getting fitted for ALF upper and lower to even have enough room to do an MSE or maybe 2.
Mind if I get your thoughts on my case in pms?