Starting to believe in God again

[bolvfr]

If God allowed the scenario you originally proposed to happen, He did so because it would ultimately create the most favorable outcome. I know that sounds absolutely absurd and unacceptable for me to say, but that’s because we can’t actually judge what’s right and wrong. Our knowledge is finite and limited so any judgment that isn’t from God is flawed. The premises will never add up if it comes from our hands. Maybe tragedies happen exactly the way they do because of how it shapes our experiences / reactions / memories / narratives

But to truly explain why is impossible, because we don’t know enough for a completely sound argument

I get your point, it was good talking to you, take care

 

[Prøphet]

I get your point, it was good talking to you, take care

You too bhai

 

[IAMNOTANINCEL]

Because it’s just a test and the real life is what comes after, only in His afterlife can true equality, Justice, and love exist, free from our human nature

God created you perfectly, but also completely wrong because all of your desires that you heavily want to act upon, that make you feel good are sinful and will condemn you to hellfire

What you ACTUALLY need to do is wait for a man made language to be invented, learn it, then wait for a man made book to be written, read it and understand that you should reject all of them, suffer and never allow yourself to be happy, because since god loves you, he wants you to torture yourself for him

You can believe in god but this is just utter retardation

 

[Prøphet]

God created you perfectly, but also completely wrong because all of your desires that you heavily want to act upon, that make you feel good are sinful and will condemn you to hellfire

What you ACTUALLY need to do is wait for a man made language to be invented, learn it, then wait for a man made book to be written, read it and understand that you should reject all of them, suffer and never allow yourself to be happy, because since god loves you, he wants you to torture yourself for him

You can believe in god but this is just utter retardation

1. God didn’t create us to be perfect, he created us to be imperfect. His act of creating us was perfect, but us as the subjects aren’t perfect. I don’t see the contradiction there. Also these sinful desires don’t maximize happiness when you look at time as a whole, they are fleeting and will consume you.

2. The book was written after language was invented on purpose. We cannot understand or comprehend why things went like that, because God exists outside of time, human knowledge, and the laws of the universe.

3. Following Christ is not torture, that’s just a laughable claim, He is perfect and His rules are the closest we can come to perfection, to follow anybody else other than him means to follow imperfection.

 

[LateAscension]

Religion is massive cope. Specifically, Christianity is the biggest cope of them all.

 

[BigJimsWornOutTires]

The more I think about human nature and suffering and history and even the metaphysics of reality itself the more I’m becoming convinced the Bible really is the word of Christ and He is real

Begin here: Infancy Gospel of Thomas

Then here: Geneva Bible

 

[IAMNOTANINCEL]

1. God didn’t create us to be perfect, he created us to be imperfect. His act of creating us was perfect, but us as the subjects aren’t perfect. I don’t see the contradiction there.

Fair enough

Also these sinful desires don’t maximize happiness when you look at time as a whole, they are fleeting and consume you.

let's actually analyze some sins...

pride: completely natural to be proud of your superiority, whether it's physical, in accomplishments... etc... stroking your ego feels good, there is nothing negative that can come out of it

greed: also completely natural, if there are resources available you will do everything to take the maximum amount for you and the people you care about and leave nothing for the others because there is no reason to, once again, nothing negative can come from it

lust: the most primitive and mundane one, you are just high t and want to fuck and reproduce asap, nothing negative can come from it if you pick the right person and do it in the proper environment (the children will suffer more than you then anyway)
nofap is one of the most torturous things in existence, not acting upon lust is extremely retarded, not reproducing and actually having sex with a woman is bad enough but not fapping is insane

envy: it's just your body telling you that you're missing something, then you just go ahead and get it by force or in this shit system by working towards it, once again nothing negative comes from it. even if you cause harm to people who have better things than you then you will just feel good.

/////
gluttony: not even really possible if you eat natural food, you will just want to eat until satiation. even if you overeat for some reason on natural food nothing will happen, you will just gain mass, muscle or fat depending on what it is (on a WAY slower rate than if you binge on goyslop, and it will actually make you feel better lol), nothing negative can come from it

wrath: there is not much that can make a healthy human wrathful, even if it happened, you get angry, you get the energy to do something about it, you solve the problem, then it's gone, you feel good, nothing negative came from it

(these are together because both don't really even exist naturally)
////

sloth: no human wants to work, working (exerting yourself to do something you don't want to do) is not natural, we want to conserve as much energy as possible and relax, nothing bad comes from it, you will live way longer if you focus on maximizing relaxation, this is literally just brainwashing you to see being a good slave as a goal lmao

all of it is human nature and you only get rewarded in the short and long term if you act on them

2. The book was written after language was invented on purpose. We cannot understand or comprehend why things went like that, because God exists outside of time, human knowledge, and the laws of the universe.

Cant explain something: uhhh god is le complex dont question it
lol

so all natural humans before went to hell?

3. Following Christ is not torture, that’s just a laughable claim, He is perfect and His rules are the closest we can come to perfection, to follow anybody else other than him means to follow imperfection.

cool personal opinion

 

[satangoy]

Because it’s just a test and the real life is what comes after, only in His afterlife can true equality, Justice, and love exist, free from our human nature

there’s no test, there’s no afterlife, you live on this earth like every other creature you’re born, you struggle, you die, that’s it

everyone gets dealt different circumstances from the start, so explain this, how can someone who’s been drowning in poverty, trauma, illness, or abuse, who loses faith because life has crushed them be sent to hell for not believing? while someone born rich, genetically gifted, neurotypical, socially loved, and genuinely happy, who thanks God for the life he was handed gets heaven?

that’s not a test, a test would mean everyone faces similar conditions, but life doesn’t work like that, the brutal truth is some people suffer way more than others for no reason at all.

calling life’s struggles a 'test from God' or believing in a 'promised afterlife' is just cope, it’s a way to tell yourself the pain will be worth it in the end, but it won’t., there’s no cosmic scorekeeper balancing the books.

if God exists, he’s not loving or just, he’s a selfish demon worse than Satan, he creates beautiful people with great lives who naturally worship him, then creates souls he knows will rot in hell because they couldn’t endure the pain of being alive, that’s not justice, that’s sadism.

so none of it makes sense, there is no God, life isn’t fair and it was never supposed to be, pain doesn’t build your afterlife it builds you, here and now, your life is right now, so stop waiting for a reward that’s never coming and take control and live the best way you can, with what you have, while you’re still here

 

[satangoy]

there’s no test, there’s no afterlife, you live on this earth like every other creature you’re born, you struggle, you die, that’s it

everyone gets dealt different circumstances from the start, so explain this, how can someone who’s been drowning in poverty, trauma, illness, or abuse, who loses faith because life has crushed them be sent to hell for not believing? while someone born rich, genetically gifted, neurotypical, socially loved, and genuinely happy, who thanks God for the life he was handed gets heaven?

that’s not a test, a test would mean everyone faces similar conditions, but life doesn’t work like that, the brutal truth is some people suffer way more than others for no reason at all.

calling life’s struggles a 'test from God' or believing in a 'promised afterlife' is just cope, it’s a way to tell yourself the pain will be worth it in the end, but it won’t., there’s no cosmic scorekeeper balancing the books.

if God exists, he’s not loving or just, he’s a selfish demon worse than Satan, he creates beautiful people with great lives who naturally worship him, then creates souls he knows will rot in hell because they couldn’t endure the pain of being alive, that’s not justice, that’s sadism.

so none of it makes sense, there is no God, life isn’t fair and it was never supposed to be, pain doesn’t build your afterlife it builds you, here and now, your life is right now, so stop waiting for a reward that’s never coming and take control and live the best way you can, with what you have, while you’re still here

by the way I'm not saying this in a manner that you should stop believing in God, you have your own opinion and experiences and if you feel like faith is the right move then good for you but this is just what i personally think don't get me wrong this isn't an attack on your statement it's just the way I personally see it.

 

[satangoy]

there’s no test, there’s no afterlife, you live on this earth like every other creature you’re born, you struggle, you die, that’s it

everyone gets dealt different circumstances from the start, so explain this, how can someone who’s been drowning in poverty, trauma, illness, or abuse, who loses faith because life has crushed them be sent to hell for not believing? while someone born rich, genetically gifted, neurotypical, socially loved, and genuinely happy, who thanks God for the life he was handed gets heaven?

that’s not a test, a test would mean everyone faces similar conditions, but life doesn’t work like that, the brutal truth is some people suffer way more than others for no reason at all.

calling life’s struggles a 'test from God' or believing in a 'promised afterlife' is just cope, it’s a way to tell yourself the pain will be worth it in the end, but it won’t., there’s no cosmic scorekeeper balancing the books.

if God exists, he’s not loving or just, he’s a selfish demon worse than Satan, he creates beautiful people with great lives who naturally worship him, then creates souls he knows will rot in hell because they couldn’t endure the pain of being alive, that’s not justice, that’s sadism.

so none of it makes sense, there is no God, life isn’t fair and it was never supposed to be, pain doesn’t build your afterlife it builds you, here and now, your life is right now, so stop waiting for a reward that’s never coming and take control and live the best way you can, with what you have, while you’re still here

look at this image does it look fair? can you genuinely look at the poor child on the right and say he's going through a "test" from God? of course not it's just nature being harsh and brutal.

if God exists, he isn't loving he's cruel, if that child grows up and doesn't believe in God, can you blame him? he was given the harshest conditions from the start, where's the all loving God who loves all his children equally? newsflash he's not there.

now let me be clear I do believe in higher powers just not the christian trinity, not any religion the concept of God is too complicated for the human mind It's impossible for any human to write a book in a man made language that truly captures God or tells you exactly how to believe that's arrogance.

higher powers exist, but it's not jesus who loves everyone equally, it's not allah, not vishnu, not any of the thousands of gods people swear is the only truth we live on a planet where God whatever that is doesn't interfere, nature runs its course, some people are born perfect attractive, mentally healthy, lucky, ohers are born neurodivergent, struggling, unattractive, or worst of all disabled or diseased.

so here's the truth every religion humans have created is a cope a way to handle the randomness and pain of life higher powers probably exist, but they aren't locked inside any holy book you've ever read we're too small to understand them, let alone speak for them.

 

[marzyyyy]

delayed gratification

suffer now, be true Adam in heaven with uncountable amounts of women and anything you desire later

not a bad deal no?

Holy fucking cope yeah buddy keep believing those man made stories copied from Zoroastrianism, Sumerian tablets, and other stories from the Levant/Mesopotamia region. You’ll be True Adam next life, don’t worry buddy, keep praising me

 

[Divineincel]

The history of the Old Testament is weird which undermines my faith in Christ

The New Testament isn’t a sequel to the Old testament

 

[causeimight]

Holy fucking cope yeah buddy keep believing those man made stories copied from Zoroastrianism, Sumerian tablets, and other stories from the Levant/Mesopotamia region. You’ll be True Adam next life, don’t worry buddy, keep praising me

it's either that what I believe in is true or not

if it isn't and there is no god then I didn't really lose anything

the world just "ends" like atheists believe

I'd rather take the chance and believe in one than not to. It's the logical solution.

 

[Throw_Away]

it's either that what I believe in is true or not

if it isn't and there is no god then I didn't really lose anything

the world just "ends" like atheists believe

I'd rather take the chance and believe in one than not to. It's the logical solution.

Pascal's wager is for sub50 iq retards.

 

[Meteor21]

The more I think about human nature and suffering and history and even the metaphysics of reality itself the more I’m becoming convinced the Bible really is the word of Christ and He is real

Chicken and the egg situation

 

[causeimight]

Pascal's wager is for sub50 iq retards.

in this context, no

there are two scenarios that this thread holds. A: God exists, B: God does not exist

You're only saying this because it doesn't agree with your view of the world

It's easier as a human to stick to your own beliefs. You suffer from confirmation bias.

 

[iblamexyz]

The more I think about human nature and suffering and history and even the metaphysics of reality itself the more I’m becoming convinced the Bible really is the word of Christ and He is real

Amen brother

everything of this world is meaningless and only True meaning can be found in God Amen

I'll praying for you brocel

 

[asdvek]

how can someone who’s been drowning in poverty, trauma, illness, or abuse, who loses faith because life has crushed them be sent to hell for not believing? while someone born rich, genetically gifted, neurotypical, socially loved, and genuinely happy, who thanks God for the life he was handed gets heaven?

 

[Throw_Away]

in this context, no

there are two scenarios that this thread holds. A: God exists, B: God does not exist

You're only saying this because it doesn't agree with your view of the world

It's easier as a human to stick to your own beliefs. You suffer from confirmation bias.

Yeah in this isolated scenario where you say "It's either christianity or not christianity", religion is cope and i cba to explain to you how retarded pascal's wager is, after all its been explained better countless times by other people. honestly I'm bored as shit now so might as well bother
1) There's many religions, you can only take Pascal's wager for one, effectively making it meaningless
2) You can't force belief based on "This would be better for me", you can't believe something just cuz you want to unless ur schizo as shit
3) Even if the choice was between a single god and non-belief, Pascal's wager still doesn't take into account the facts, its just blindly wanting to believe something out of fear. it's like going to a casino because you can at most lose everything you have, but gain infinite, whereas if you don't go to a casino, you keep what you have, but lose the theoretical infinite gains
the logic is retarded in even more ways than this but i cba to type out any more to a random whos probably retarded

 

[causeimight]

Yeah in this isolated scenario where you say "It's either christianity or not christianity", religion is cope and i cba to explain to you how retarded pascal's wager is, after all its been explained better countless times by other people. honestly I'm bored as shit now so might as well bother
1) There's many religions, you can only take Pascal's wager for one, effectively making it meaningless
2) You can't force belief based on "This would be better for me", you can't believe something just cuz you want to unless ur schizo as shit
3) Even if the choice was between a single god and non-belief, Pascal's wager still doesn't take into account the facts, its just blindly wanting to believe something out of fear. it's like going to a casino because you can at most lose everything you have, but gain infinite, whereas if you don't go to a casino, you keep what you have, but lose the theoretical infinite gains
the logic is retarded in even more ways than this but i cba to type out any more to a random whos probably retarded

Never named christianity.

Look, Pascal’s Wager isn’t about blindly believing rather it’s about rational action under uncertainty.

There are two possibilities: God exists or doesn’t. Some religions are more credible than others, so it’s rational to focus on the plausible ones rather than pick randomly.

You don’t magically force belief overnight, but you can commit to engaging with the worldview : study, practice, ethical living which often leads to genuine belief over time.

Even if God doesn’t exist, you don’t lose anything meaningful, you live a life guided by purpose, meaning, and ethics.

But if God does exist, the potential gains are infinite. Rational prudence says it’s better to take the chance than ignore it.

 

[Throw_Away]

Never named christianity.

when niggas say God, its usually about christianity.

so it’s rational to focus on the plausible ones rather than pick randomly.

It's rational to not focus on any of them because none of them have concrete proof backing them and are usually filled with contradictions that believers of said religion will cope about in one way or another, but even then there's a lot of options so that doesn't even address my point.

you don’t lose anything meaningful, you live a life guided by purpose, meaning, and ethics.

except you do lose a lot, you lose freedom and have to live a life dedicated to a certain religion. you can live a moral and good life even without that, and it won't compromise on your freedom and make you waste time by attending church and such lol

Rational prudence says it’s better to take the chance than ignore it.

still the same fear motivated cope belief as before. "It's rational bro", it's not rational because you're only believing without addressing the actual substance of religion. "Why not?" instead of "This is the truth" used as the starting point.

 

[causeimight]

when niggas say God, its usually about christianity.

It's rational to not focus on any of them because none of them have concrete proof backing them and are usually filled with contradictions that believers of said religion will cope about in one way or another, but even then there's a lot of options so that doesn't even address my point.

except you do lose a lot, you lose freedom and have to live a life dedicated to a certain religion. you can live a moral and good life even without that, and it won't compromise on your freedom and make you waste time by attending church and such lol

still the same fear motivated cope belief as before. "It's rational bro", it's not rational because you're only believing without addressing the actual substance of religion. "Why not?" instead of "This is the truth" used as the starting point.

yknow what, I could argue with you, but I really have more important things to do

the rational decision here is to let off and believe in what we desire to believe.

have a good rest of your day/night bhai

 

[Throw_Away]

yknow what, I could argue with you, but I really have more important things to do

the rational decision here is to let off and believe in what we desire to believe.

have a good rest of your day/night bhai

Same to you, honestly i wouldn't bother normally but im extra fucking bored and got jack shit to do rn. good luck man

 

[esotericcuck]

The New Testament isn’t a sequel to the Old testament

It’s supposedly the same god

 

[Divineincel]

It’s supposedly the same god

The New Testament replaces the teachings of Old Testament. Through Jesus blood you can repent your sins

 

[Prøphet]

Fair enough

let's actually analyze some sins...

pride: completely natural to be proud of your superiority, whether it's physical, in accomplishments... etc... stroking your ego feels good, there is nothing negative that can come out of it

greed: also completely natural, if there are resources available you will do everything to take the maximum amount for you and the people you care about and leave nothing for the others because there is no reason to, once again, nothing negative can come from it

lust: the most primitive and mundane one, you are just high t and want to fuck and reproduce asap, nothing negative can come from it if you pick the right person and do it in the proper environment (the children will suffer more than you then anyway)
nofap is one of the most torturous things in existence, not acting upon lust is extremely retarded, not reproducing and actually having sex with a woman is bad enough but not fapping is insane

envy: it's just your body telling you that you're missing something, then you just go ahead and get it by force or in this shit system by working towards it, once again nothing negative comes from it. even if you cause harm to people who have better things than you then you will just feel good.

/////
gluttony: not even really possible if you eat natural food, you will just want to eat until satiation. even if you overeat for some reason on natural food nothing will happen, you will just gain mass, muscle or fat depending on what it is (on a WAY slower rate than if you binge on goyslop, and it will actually make you feel better lol), nothing negative can come from it

wrath: there is not much that can make a healthy human wrathful, even if it happened, you get angry, you get the energy to do something about it, you solve the problem, then it's gone, you feel good, nothing negative came from it

(these are together because both don't really even exist naturally)
////

sloth: no human wants to work, working (exerting yourself to do something you don't want to do) is not natural, we want to conserve as much energy as possible and relax, nothing bad comes from it, you will live way longer if you focus on maximizing relaxation, this is literally just brainwashing you to see being a good slave as a goal lmao

all of it is human nature and you only get rewarded in the short and long term if you act on them

Cant explain something: uhhh god is le complex dont question it
lol

so all natural humans before went to hell?

cool personal opinion

I think a lot of this is appeal to nature

Pride: There’s a difference between confidence and actual pride, when people become prideful of themselves it changes how they value others and leads to injustice, selfishness and cruelty just to uphold their ego.

Greed: Relationships, tribes, and community are also literally human needs for survival, and if you’re greedy you won’t get those (unless you commit other sins to coerce people into tolerating you). On top of that, human greed is a never ending and relentless cycle, chasing it will never truly fulfill you, it will only make you more and more thirsty the more you indulge in it. Look at the hedonic treadmill.

Lust: This is the one I thought you would be able to see the most clearly, the same extreme hypergamy that you’re a victim of is only so prevalent because we abandoned monogamy. And why did we abandon monogamy? Because we abandoned religion. Lust without control leads to jealousy and inequality. Not to mention it’s a temporary and fleeting feeling that leads people to many bad decisions (ever felt post nut clarity?)

Envy: Harming others still harms you in the end, see greed for example.

Gluttony: Appeal to nature, if everyone ate primal maybe it wouldn’t be prevalent, but because high calorie foods, fast food, ultra processed foods, etc, exist, many people become obese by eating too much. Even in Jesus time they ate processed foods.

Wrath: Are you kidding? Many things make humans wrathful all the time. Just yesterday in my city a nigga shot someone just because he cut him off in traffic. If we all gave in to wrath there would be no order, no society, no laws, NO MERCY. And of course we both know it usually won’t leave you fulfilled to give in to wrath because of how irrational it is

Sloth: Appeal to nature. If nobody did work nobody would survive. Even fulfilling the basic needs of survival like eating sleeping having sex and shitting consumes energy. By your definition even hunting for meat should be avoided because it’s not something you have an instinct to do and it consumes energy.

God explicitly said in the Bible that people who haven’t heard his word cant go to hell

I don’t say God is complex as some cop out to avoid reasoning. What I mean is an infinite being could literally not be comprehended in his entirety by a finite being like you or me. Because we are stuck in this dimension with all its limitations, like linear time, probabilities, laws of the universe. It’s like asking a monkey to solve a calculus problem. He can’t even comprehend numbers!

 

[Prøphet]

there’s no test, there’s no afterlife, you live on this earth like every other creature you’re born, you struggle, you die, that’s it

everyone gets dealt different circumstances from the start, so explain this, how can someone who’s been drowning in poverty, trauma, illness, or abuse, who loses faith because life has crushed them be sent to hell for not believing? while someone born rich, genetically gifted, neurotypical, socially loved, and genuinely happy, who thanks God for the life he was handed gets heaven?

that’s not a test, a test would mean everyone faces similar conditions, but life doesn’t work like that, the brutal truth is some people suffer way more than others for no reason at all.

calling life’s struggles a 'test from God' or believing in a 'promised afterlife' is just cope, it’s a way to tell yourself the pain will be worth it in the end, but it won’t., there’s no cosmic scorekeeper balancing the books.

if God exists, he’s not loving or just, he’s a selfish demon worse than Satan, he creates beautiful people with great lives who naturally worship him, then creates souls he knows will rot in hell because they couldn’t endure the pain of being alive, that’s not justice, that’s sadism.

so none of it makes sense, there is no God, life isn’t fair and it was never supposed to be, pain doesn’t build your afterlife it builds you, here and now, your life is right now, so stop waiting for a reward that’s never coming and take control and live the best way you can, with what you have, while you’re still here

Believe me I understand what you’re saying more than most people. I got dealt a shit hand too. But God never said the test would be “fair”. Our concept of what’s good and what’s evil is limited because we are imperfect even in our reasoning and knowledge. You might see one action from God at one point of time as evil, but since God is the ultimate utilitarian, it will always end up causing the most good. Only He can know because He exists outside of time and can see reality in its entirety to actually know the consequences of his actions unlike us who can only predict the consequences based off induction. What you see as evil is simply deontological action, because that’s all we can reliably go off of as humans. But God is a consequentalist. Also we cant know who will go to heaven or hell, only God will make the judgment, and it cant be quantified what will send one person to heaven and someone else to hell.

By the way we don’t even know if hell will be eternal torture. There’s a good chance it’s just a fire that burns away and annihilates souls.

 

[Prøphet]

there’s no test, there’s no afterlife, you live on this earth like every other creature you’re born, you struggle, you die, that’s it

everyone gets dealt different circumstances from the start, so explain this, how can someone who’s been drowning in poverty, trauma, illness, or abuse, who loses faith because life has crushed them be sent to hell for not believing? while someone born rich, genetically gifted, neurotypical, socially loved, and genuinely happy, who thanks God for the life he was handed gets heaven?

that’s not a test, a test would mean everyone faces similar conditions, but life doesn’t work like that, the brutal truth is some people suffer way more than others for no reason at all.

calling life’s struggles a 'test from God' or believing in a 'promised afterlife' is just cope, it’s a way to tell yourself the pain will be worth it in the end, but it won’t., there’s no cosmic scorekeeper balancing the books.

if God exists, he’s not loving or just, he’s a selfish demon worse than Satan, he creates beautiful people with great lives who naturally worship him, then creates souls he knows will rot in hell because they couldn’t endure the pain of being alive, that’s not justice, that’s sadism.

so none of it makes sense, there is no God, life isn’t fair and it was never supposed to be, pain doesn’t build your afterlife it builds you, here and now, your life is right now, so stop waiting for a reward that’s never coming and take control and live the best way you can, with what you have, while you’re still here

Btw I don’t believe because I’m coping I would say the main reason I believe is because his existence literally cannot be disproven

 

[Swarthy Knight]

The more I think about human nature and suffering and history and even the metaphysics of reality itself the more I’m becoming convinced the Bible really is the word of Christ and He is real

Ngl from ur username I thought u were Muzzie

 

[ZenithZXV]

I believe in god, but not from the mainstream religion

 

[Prøphet]

Ngl from ur username I thought u were Muzzie

Who’s that

 

[ZenithZXV]

Btw I don’t believe because I’m coping I would say the main reason I believe is because his existence literally cannot be disproven

I dont believe in mainstream religion. i am more leaning into gnostic

 

[Swarthy Knight]

Who’s that

Muslim*

 

[Swarthy Knight]

I dont believe in mainstream religion. i am more leaning into gnostic

As a Buddhist I think that’s based

 

[satangoy]

Btw I don’t believe because I’m coping I would say the main reason I believe is because his existence literally cannot be disproven

are you talking generally about God as an existence of a higher power or Yahweh specifically?

 

[Acquiescence]

I believe in Jeremy Meeks

 

[satangoy]

Believe me I understand what you’re saying more than most people. I got dealt a shit hand too. But God never said the test would be “fair”. Our concept of what’s good and what’s evil is limited because we are imperfect even in our reasoning and knowledge. You might see one action from God at one point of time as evil, but since God is the ultimate utilitarian, it will always end up causing the most good. Only He can know because He exists outside of time and can see reality in its entirety to actually know the consequences of his actions unlike us who can only predict the consequences based off induction. What you see as evil is simply deontological action, because that’s all we can reliably go off of as humans. But God is a consequentalist. Also we cant know who will go to heaven or hell, only God will make the judgment, and it cant be quantified what will send one person to heaven and someone else to hell.

By the way we don’t even know if hell will be eternal torture. There’s a good chance it’s just a fire that burns away and annihilates souls.

btw no attack here at all I appreciate you explaining your view but i gotta ask are you basing this on your own personal take or on what the Bible actually says, because a lot of what you're saying contradicts scripture

the bible clearly states that believers go to heaven and non believers go to hell and it also describes hell as eternal torture not some annihilation fire, so when you say "we don't know if hell is eternal" or "we can't know who goes where" that's not the Bible talking that's you rewriting it to make it more palatable the Bible is very clear on these things

you also talk about God being a "consequentialist" who always causes the most good in the end but the Bible shows God playing favorites, punishing people harshly in this life, and judging based on actions and faith not some hidden plan we can't understand you're basically rewriting who God is to make the problem of suffering go away, that's fine if it's your personal belief, but it's not straight out of the Bible

you said God's existence can't be disproven and absolutely agreed but that's not a reason to believe, i can't disprove invisible flying chad angel jeets either but the real question is does the world we actually see look like it's run by a loving God running a fair test, nope it looks random, harsh, and unequal, a child born disabled and a child born perfect aren't being tested they're just dealt different hands that's nature, not a divine exam

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im not trying to be disrespectful ofc but i just think your vision of God is based off of what you created him as, not as what he actually is from the Bible

 

[Iblamejudes67]

can u make a thread

i lost my faith months ago but still claim im a christian for some reason

Maybe because youre just thinking rationally and doubting yourself and haven't trully lost faith

 

[satangoy]

btw no attack here at all I appreciate you explaining your view but I gotta ask are you basing this on your own personal take or on what the Bible actually says, because a lot of what you're saying contradicts scripture.

the bible clearly states that believers go to heaven and non believers go to hell and it also describes hell as eternal torture not some annihilation fire, so when you say "we don't know if hell is eternal" or "we can't know who goes where" that's not the Bible talking that's you rewriting it to make it more palatable the Bible is very clear on these things.

you also talk about God being a "consequentialist" who always causes the most good in the end but the Bible shows God playing favorites, punishing people harshly in this life, and judging based on actions and faith not some hidden plan we can't understand you're basically rewriting who God is to make the problem of suffering go away, that's fine if it's your personal belief, but it's not straight out of the Bible.

you said God's existence can't be disproven and absolutely agreed but that's not a reason to believe, i can't disprove invisible flying chad angel jeets either but the real question is does the world we actually see look like it's run by a loving God running a fair test, nope it looks random, harsh, and unequal, a child born disabled and a child born perfect aren't being tested they're just dealt different hands that's nature, not a divine exam.

im not trying to be disrespectful ofc but i just think your vision of God is based off of what you created him as, not as what he actually is from the Bible

also scientifically we know that where you're born and what you're taught predicts your religion with over 80% accuracy, a kid born in saudi arabia is almost certainly Muslim, a kid born in sweet home alabama is almost certainly christian, a kid born in ancient greece would believe in Zeus, so if God is running a test where belief determines your eternal fate, he's stacking the results before the test even starts based on geography and parents neither of which a child chooses, studies on twins also show that genetics and upbringing, not free will, are the strongest predictors of behavior, addiction, mental health, and even how religious you'll be as an adult, that doesn't look like a fair test it looks more like biology and environment

also i found what the bible has to say so basing this on the Bibl, here's what it actually says, john 3:18 says "Whoever does not believe stands condemned already." revelation 14:11 says the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever, matthew 25:46 says "These will go away into eternal punishment." that's not annihilation that's eternal torture plain as day. so when you say "we don't know if hell is eternal" or "we can't know who goes where" you're not quoting the Bible ur rewriting it because the original version is too brutal to defend i get it but let's be honest about that

 

[satangoy]

also scientifically we know that where you're born and what you're taught predicts your religion with over 80% accuracy, a kid born in saudi arabia is almost certainly Muslim, a kid born in sweet home alabama is almost certainly christian, a kid born in ancient greece would believe in Zeus, so if God is running a test where belief determines your eternal fate, he's stacking the results before the test even starts based on geography and parents neither of which a child chooses, studies on twins also show that genetics and upbringing, not free will, are the strongest predictors of behavior, addiction, mental health, and even how religious you'll be as an adult, that doesn't look like a fair test it looks more like biology and environment.

also i found what the bible has to say so basing this on the Bibl, here's what it actually says, john 3:18 says "Whoever does not believe stands condemned already." revelation 14:11 says the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever, matthew 25:46 says "These will go away into eternal punishment." that's not annihilation that's eternal torture plain as day. so when you say "we don't know if hell is eternal" or "we can't know who goes where" you're not quoting the Bible ur rewriting it because the original version is too brutal to defend i get it but let's be honest about that

holy yap lmaoo now i feel like two redditors arguing i gotta find a job asap

even though i don't necessarily agree with you thank you for the effort of responding and stuff love u brah

 

[Prøphet]

also scientifically we know that where you're born and what you're taught predicts your religion with over 80% accuracy, a kid born in saudi arabia is almost certainly Muslim, a kid born in sweet home alabama is almost certainly christian, a kid born in ancient greece would believe in Zeus, so if God is running a test where belief determines your eternal fate, he's stacking the results before the test even starts based on geography and parents neither of which a child chooses, studies on twins also show that genetics and upbringing, not free will, are the strongest predictors of behavior, addiction, mental health, and even how religious you'll be as an adult, that doesn't look like a fair test it looks more like biology and environment

also i found what the bible has to say so basing this on the Bibl, here's what it actually says, john 3:18 says "Whoever does not believe stands condemned already." revelation 14:11 says the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever, matthew 25:46 says "These will go away into eternal punishment." that's not annihilation that's eternal torture plain as day. so when you say "we don't know if hell is eternal" or "we can't know who goes where" you're not quoting the Bible ur rewriting it because the original version is too brutal to defend i get it but let's be honest about that

Well I agree with your first paragraph to some degree tbh, I don’t believe in free will so it confuses me that a perfect God allows deterministic external factors to play into his judgment of humans. For example someone mentally retarded with 50iq who can’t even grasp the concept of god would not be saved according to some passages. But then looking at other passages, God is portrayed as merciful and understanding and you would think punishing such a person is evil. But what is evil? We don’t know what’s good and what’s evil, we just based these words off what God said. What exactly is belief? Is it even a choice when it’s shaped by so many things you never chose?

What is probability? Is it a real thing, if there were 100 multiverses would the same thing happen in 80 of them, or what if probability doesnt even exist and things truly are randomized? What about the quantum system of probability? We can’t even comprehend such things because of how our universe behaves, and the observations we have made so far, which dictate what we can imagine and conceptualize.

Something Ive been thinking of is maybe the Bible was written not with truth or accuracy as the #1 priority, but something else. Maybe some doctrines are there to serve some higher purpose than truth. A higher meaning that we can’t grasp because of how limited we are by the mind and the universe. Maybe some things were said to incentivize the highest number of people possible to do a specific thing for example. Language imposes such a limit on the fluidity of consciousness, and I’m not sure if the truth can be encapsulated by our system of language. What if God just “met us in the middle” and molded a narrative that would fit into our language and science so we could understand it without having to write such long paragraphs like this? Btw it’s theorized by some that Jesus came at the time that he did because that was when the Greeks and Romans established things like logic and philosophy. I don’t know where aim going with this tbh because my brain is tired but I guess the main point is we cannot tell what is truly just or right because as agents of life, the underlying drive that controls our unconscious is selfish reproduction, avoiding starvation, all these things tied to the confines of “life” while God, creator of all of these things, has a clear mind to actually see objective truth without a cloudy lens.

 

[Prøphet]

also scientifically we know that where you're born and what you're taught predicts your religion with over 80% accuracy, a kid born in saudi arabia is almost certainly Muslim, a kid born in sweet home alabama is almost certainly christian, a kid born in ancient greece would believe in Zeus, so if God is running a test where belief determines your eternal fate, he's stacking the results before the test even starts based on geography and parents neither of which a child chooses, studies on twins also show that genetics and upbringing, not free will, are the strongest predictors of behavior, addiction, mental health, and even how religious you'll be as an adult, that doesn't look like a fair test it looks more like biology and environment

also i found what the bible has to say so basing this on the Bibl, here's what it actually says, john 3:18 says "Whoever does not believe stands condemned already." revelation 14:11 says the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever, matthew 25:46 says "These will go away into eternal punishment." that's not annihilation that's eternal torture plain as day. so when you say "we don't know if hell is eternal" or "we can't know who goes where" you're not quoting the Bible ur rewriting it because the original version is too brutal to defend i get it but let's be honest about that

I might be wrong but I believe revelations is referring to deity’s like the devil and antichrist, who are able to commit infinite sin, not humans

And for Matthew, it could mean the punishment of never ever existing again is eternal and thus irreversible, in other words it could mean the annihilation will last for eternity

Like a fire burning forever, but what you throw into that fire is annihilated within seconds even though it stays there forever technically

But again it ties into what I said about the limits of language and human reasoning, I know it’s a cop out a lot of people use but there genuinely are things the human mind cant grasp

Like how were discovering some atoms can exist in 2 places at once

Maybe there are other things, even immaterial things, such as ideas, with similar properties

I enjoyed debating this too btw all love

 

[IAMNOTANINCEL]

I think a lot of this is appeal to nature

Probably because nature is always right, doing what's natural will always make you feel good

Pride: There’s a difference between confidence and actual pride, when people become prideful of themselves it changes how they value others

And?

and leads to injustice

No such thing, but i know what you mean. That's just the natural order, so what? You want to be at the top.

selfishness and cruelty just to uphold their ego.

And? Cruelty is also your relative personal opinion

Greed: Relationships, tribes, and community are also literally human needs for survival

I literally said that

On top of that, human greed is a never ending and relentless cycle, chasing it will never truly fulfill you, it will only make you more and more thirsty the more you indulge in it. Look at the hedonic treadmill.

Meaningless yap.
Unless you're talking about money (which doesn't exist, that's why you'll always keep chasing it)

Lust: This is the one I thought you would be able to see the most clearly, the same extreme hypergamy that you’re a victim of is only so prevalent because we abandoned monogamy.

Because everyone wants an attractive partner, women are not forced to be with unattractive men anymore for survival, there are less attractive men because of shit food and environments, men don't get anything so they simp for subhuman women... barely anything to do with religion

And why did we abandon monogamy?

Because we abandoned nature. Not "god"

Because we abandoned religion.

Religion made women get forced to become with men they didn't find attractive for survival. 0 love involved.

Lust without control leads to jealousy

And?

inequality.

And?

Not to mention it’s a temporary and fleeting feeling that leads people to many bad decisions (ever felt post nut clarity?)

You can repress your lust forever, but it will always be there because you need sex and reproduction.

Envy: Harming others still harms you in the end, see greed for example.

How?

Gluttony: Appeal to nature, if everyone ate primal maybe it wouldn’t be prevalent, but because high calorie foods, fast food, ultra processed foods, etc, exist, many people become obese by eating too much. Even in Jesus time they ate processed foods

I don't care, i only care about how they apply to natural humans because that's who gets religion imposed on them

Just yesterday in my city a nigga shot someone just because he cut him off in traffic.

Natural. If there's a problem in nature you get rid of it. That can only harm you in the system.

If we all gave in to wrath there would be no order, no society, no laws, NO MERCY.

And?

And of course we both know it usually won’t leave you fulfilled to give in to wrath because of how irrational it is

It's not irrational. There are no irrational emotions/desires, they are all there for a reason.

Sloth: Appeal to nature. If nobody did work nobody would survive. Even fulfilling the basic needs of survival like eating sleeping having sex and shitting consumes energy. By your definition even hunting for meat should be avoided because it’s not something you have an instinct to do and it consumes energy.

God explicitly said in the Bible that people who haven’t heard his word cant go to hell

How convenient

I don’t say God is complex as some cop out to avoid reasoning.

You did though...

What I mean is an infinite being could literally not be comprehended in his entirety by a finite being like you or me.

aka... god is le complex, don't question it