Tall midface can be a racial trait and not related to recession at all

[Deleted member 2157]

This is misunderstood so much tbh

The long midface that north/east asians, some arabs and native americans have is a racial trait, it's not related to recession in any way

All white ethnicities and most african ones are midface-height mogged by north/east asians and native americans naturally. Europeans and most africans are directly known for their short midfaces in anthropological sites.

All of the people in these pictures are averages of phenotypes/races and have no recession in any way. The pictures are from humanphenotypes.net.

North Chinese

Type common in Korea/Manchuria

Native american phenotype from the plains. Notice how his midface is extremely tall (more than the asians) despite having a lot of bone growth

Type common on shores on nordic countries. Notice how his midface is drastically shorter.

Most common phenotype in west africa. Despite him having extremely wide cheekbones his midface is much more compact and short than the native americans/east asians

Tldr; long midfaces in native americans/east asians is a genetic racial trait, not recession, long midfaces can appear without any recession

 

[Deleted member 9699]

dn rd
white > all other races

 

[Deleted member 2157]

dn rd
white > all other races

 

[Deleted member 2157]

Another image to demonstrate.
This is a thing where europeans are actually MORE neotenous than east asians are

 

[Deleted member 2157]

Bumo

 

[AutisticBeaner]

every asian is brutally recessed, did you really not know this?

 

[Deleted member 2157]

every asian is brutally recessed, did you really not know this?

They aren't recessed, it's a racial thing. If they were recessed they'd all have breathing problems

 

[AutisticBeaner]

They aren't recessed, it's a racial thing. If they were recessed they'd all have breathing problems

they all have breathing problems

 

[Deleted member 2157]

they all have breathing problems

they do?

 

[BradAniston]

they do?

they do

 

[Deleted member 2157]

they do

native americans and neanderthals didn't and theirs were/are even longer tbh

 

[Deleted member 9919]

They aren't recessed, it's a racial thing. If they were recessed they'd all have breathing problems

I'm East Asian, I have breathing problems. Pretty much all East Asians I know have breathing problems. We just don't talk about it since we think it's normal. We have super soft foods. Just think - we're raised on soy which means lots of tofu & related. Rice -> soft. And all our meats are boiled/steamed till they fall off the bone. Everything is soft foods, easy to chew - all from a young age. Plus, in more developed areas, mothers don't like nursing, they prefer to use bottles and formula. It's seen as more "sophisticated," less of a "commoner" behaviour.

 

[Deleted member 2157]

I'm East Asian, I have breathing problems. Pretty much all East Asians I know have breathing problems. We just don't talk about it since we think it's normal. We have super soft foods. Just think - we're raised on soy which means lots of tofu & related. Rice -> soft. And all our meats are boiled/steamed till they fall off the bone. Everything is soft foods, easy to chew - all from a young age. Plus, in more developed areas, mothers don't like nursing, they prefer to use bottles and formula. It's seen as more "sophisticated," less of a "commoner" behaviour.

Well, even inuits and siberians related to you guys have very long natural midfaces.

Inuit

Siberian type

It's genetic overall, south east asians have much shorter ones too tbh. I don't think it's a failo like this.

 

[Deleted member 9919]

I think at some level, yes there is some genetic predisposition. But I think environmental issues (such as food, nursing, etc.) affect this a lot more. Pick out some good looking East Asian men for your examples - I have a feeling that those people tend to come from poorer families. There's a huge cultural influence and it needs to be factored in before considering genetics. I mean, you don't want to pull out the average and call it "genetics" when the average has extremely poor oral posture. I think your examples would work better if you selected better looking faces.

 

[Deleted member 9344]

I'm East Asian, I have breathing problems. Pretty much all East Asians I know have breathing problems. We just don't talk about it since we think it's normal. We have super soft foods. Just think - we're raised on soy which means lots of tofu & related. Rice -> soft. And all our meats are boiled/steamed till they fall off the bone. Everything is soft foods, easy to chew - all from a young age. Plus, in more developed areas, mothers don't like nursing, they prefer to use bottles and formula. It's seen as more "sophisticated," less of a "commoner" behaviour.

Brutal.

 

[Deleted member 2157]

I think at some level, yes there is some genetic predisposition. But I think environmental issues (such as food, nursing, etc.) affect this a lot more. Pick out some good looking East Asian men for your examples - I have a feeling that those people tend to come from poorer families. There's a huge cultural influence and it needs to be factored in before considering genetics. I mean, you don't want to pull out the average and call it "genetics" when the average has extremely poor oral posture. I think your examples would work better if you selected better looking faces.

It's true that east asian cultures don't provide good environments at all for growth, but east asian athletes/models have large tall midfaces too compared to other ethnicities. Imo it's not a failo because it harmonizes

 

[Deleted member 9919]

It's true that east asian cultures don't provide good environments at all for growth, but east asian athletes/models have large tall midfaces too compared to other ethnicities. Imo it's not a failo because it harmonizes
View attachment 711386

That guy is a much better example, but you still need the side shot to show his mandible and maxillary recession (if any). Frontal photos are still hard to judge by. That is why we take photos from several angles. For all we know, his maxilla could have a very steep angle with a short gonial. And knowing his history is also important. Was he raised in a poorer environment and had more opportunities to chew hard foods? Was he nursed as a baby? The orthotropist I visited asked me all these questions and more. There's just too much that needs to be considered. That is why research is hard and expensive.

Here's a sufficiently handsome man of (probably) Korean descent. But his mandible angle is too steep. So now we need to figure out if he grew up with soft foods, nursing, etc. If he did, then genetics saved him (assuming no plastic surgery), but he could've been much better looking if he had proper oral posture.

Here's one with a shorter midface, looks Chinese with a mix of something else:

Here's another guy. He's "ok" but you can tell already that his jaw has a steep angle. So is that genetics or environmental?

This guy has a much better angle for his jaw. But without the side photo, is his maxilla a bit sunken or is it genetics?

Another one, shorter mid face, good mandible angle:

Lewis Tan is mixed: Chinese and White. Lots of side shots available of him since he's been in movies and TV/Neflix shows. His jaw angle is steep, but he has a shorter mid face but a longish looking skull. Nice gonial. Genetics saved him?

 

[Deleted member 2157]

That guy is a much better example, but you still need the side shot to show his mandible and maxillary recession (if any). Frontal photos are still hard to judge by. That is why we take photos from several angles. For all we know, his maxilla could have a very steep angle with a short gonial. And knowing his history is also important. Was he raised in a poorer environment and had more opportunities to chew hard foods? Was he nursed as a baby? The orthotropist I visited asked me all these questions and more. There's just too much that needs to be considered. That is why research is hard and expensive.

Here's a sufficiently handsome man of (probably) Korean descent. But his mandible angle is too steep. So now we need to figure out if he grew up with soft foods, nursing, etc. If he did, then genetics saved him (assuming no plastic surgery), but he could've been much better looking if he had proper oral posture.

Here's one with a shorter midface, looks Chinese with a mix of something else:

Here's another guy. He's "ok" but you can tell already that his jaw has a steep angle. So is that genetics or environmental?

This guy has a much better angle for his jaw. But without the side photo, is his maxilla a bit sunken or is it genetics?

Another one, shorter mid face, good mandible angle:

Lewis Tan is mixed: Chinese and White. Lots of side shots available of him since he's been in movies and TV/Neflix shows. His jaw angle is steep, but he has a shorter mid face but a longish looking skull. Nice gonial. Genetics saved him?

No recession visible tbh.

The non mixed guys you posted still have the long north/east asian midface tbh, southern chinese (sudsinids) people do have a lot of south east asian ancestry. their midfaces are much shorter naturally, so that plays a part too. South east asians are much more neotenous than east asians in nearly all dimensions


Ancient neolithic chinese seem to have had even larger midfaces, just a lot more bone growth too

Compare the ancient chinese to a polynesian tbh

 

[Deleted member 9919]

View attachment 711437
No recession visible tbh.

The recession is slight, but still looks pretty obvious to me...

Re: your other comments - ancient where? And what social status? Ancient Egyptian pharaohs' mummy skulls look super recessed. Soft foods. Rich/comfortable lifestyles. It's like I said - it's not enough to just know how the face or skull looks like. You need more info on the lives of the people. The Mews used many skulls - not just a couple examples. They needed an ancient average versus the modern day average in order to determine literally one thing only: Something went wrong after the Industrial Revolution. From there, they were able to come up with generalisations. The whole mewing thing is based on basically one premise: On average, we look ugly and have a host of health problems today because we eat soft foods and have poor oral posture. And if we fix these underlying issues, we can look our genetic max potential. Once all those things have been fixed/addressed, if East Asians still appear with longer mid faces on average, then we can say it's genetic. The problem is we don't have enough examples of people with good oral posture, etc. with good photos and accurate measurements. You need a much larger population sample size of the best specimens to perform a proper study and come up with solid conclusions. Add to that, they're fighting a battle on another front against orthodontists and other medical professionals.

 

[reptiles]

View attachment 711437
No recession visible tbh.

The non mixed guys you posted still have the long north/east asian midface tbh, southern chinese (sudsinids) people do have a lot of south east asian ancestry. their midfaces are much shorter naturally, so that plays a part too. South east asians are much more neotenous than east asians in nearly all dimensions


Ancient neolithic chinese seem to have had even larger midfaces, just a lot more bone growth too
View attachment 711446
Compare the ancient chinese to a polynesian tbh
View attachment 711448

Do you have a late pleistocine reconstruction of the ancient chinese

 

[Deleted member 2157]

The recession is slight, but still looks pretty obvious to me...

Re: your other comments - ancient where? And what social status? Ancient Egyptian pharaohs' mummy skulls look super recessed. Soft foods. Rich/comfortable lifestyles. It's like I said - it's not enough to just know how the face or skull looks like. You need more info on the lives of the people. The Mews used many skulls - not just a couple examples. They needed an ancient average versus the modern day average in order to determine literally one thing only: Something went wrong after the Industrial Revolution. From there, they were able to come up with generalisations. The whole mewing thing is based on basically one premise: On average, we look ugly and have a host of health problems today because we eat soft foods and have poor oral posture. And if we fix these underlying issues, we can look our genetic max potential. Once all those things have been fixed/addressed, if East Asians still appear with longer mid faces on average, then we can say it's genetic. The problem is we don't have enough examples of people with good oral posture, etc. with good photos and accurate measurements. You need a much larger population sample size of the best specimens to perform a proper study and come up with solid conclusions. Add to that, they're fighting a battle on another front against orthodontists and other medical professionals.

Well, maybe viewing in the frame of a european skull.

The skulls are from ancient early neolithic central china. They were probably mostly hunters. East asians have always had taller midfaces, it's visible when you look at eskimos or mongolians who eat a very hard diet and are closely related. A truly recessed east asian would look really different

Do you have a late pleistocine reconstruction of the ancient chinese

They didn't really look like east asians back then tbh

 

[reptiles]

Well, maybe viewing in the frame of a european skull.

The skulls are from ancient early neolithic central china. They were probably mostly hunters. East asians have always had taller midfaces, it's visible when you look at eskimos or mongolians who eat a very hard diet and are closely related. A truly recessed east asian would look really different

They didn't really look like east asians back then tbh

Would the jomon be a good proxy?

 

[Deleted member 2157]

Would the jomon be a good proxy?

I think jomon with longer more native american midfaces could be

 

[reptiles]

I think jomon with longer more native american midfaces could be

Wtf how did they descend this hard to the flat face look wtf

 

[AutisticBeaner]

native americans and neanderthals didn't and theirs were/are even longer tbh

neanderthals are a different species. the only reason the midfaces of native americans may seem longer to you is because their bones were bigger and more forward grown. same reason why tall people seem to have longer midfaces (at least for the "bigger bones" part. if you were to actually look at the deviation of the rotation of the maxilla from horizontal to the ground, you'd see that the maxilla of asians is much mor downward grown.

 

[AutisticBeaner]

they do?

it really depends on your defintion of "breathing problem" they all have (or had) the potential to breathe much better.

 

[Deleted member 2157]

neanderthals are a different species. the only reason the midfaces of native americans may seem longer to you is because their bones were bigger and more forward grown. same reason why tall people seem to have longer midfaces (at least for the "bigger bones" part. if you were to actually look at the deviation of the rotation of the maxilla from horizontal to the ground, you'd see that the maxilla of asians is much mor downward grown.

Native american midfaces were very long and tall., but it's true all of their bones are very grown. Taller people have longer midfaces, yeah

Their downward growth is just a racial trait and not the same thing that causes european people to suffocate in their sleep, its their natural state

 

[AutisticBeaner]

Native american midfaces were very long and tall., but it's true all of their bones are very grown. Taller people have longer midfaces, yeah
View attachment 711559
Their downward growth is just a racial trait and not the same thing that causes european people to suffocate in their sleep, its their natural state

no, their downward growth is not a racial trait. it's just that the natives we have pictures of were already influenced by poorer habits and less chewing so that their faces grew downward. it's not hard to tell that the guy you posted hasn't maximized his potential. in order to have perfect facial development you need to lead a legit caveman lifestyle, even for people like native americans you'd have to go centuries into the past to find "perfect" specimens for the most part.

 

[reptiles]

Native american midfaces were very long and tall., but it's true all of their bones are very grown. Taller people have longer midfaces, yeah
View attachment 711559
Their downward growth is just a racial trait and not the same thing that causes european people to suffocate in their sleep, its their natural state

A longer midface doesn't have to be connected with downwards growth though i generally think it's wrong to say 90 percent of asians are down wards grown

 

[Deleted member 9919]

Well, maybe viewing in the frame of a european skull.

The skulls are from ancient early neolithic central china. They were probably mostly hunters. East asians have always had taller midfaces, it's visible when you look at eskimos or mongolians who eat a very hard diet and are closely related. A truly recessed east asian would look really different

They didn't really look like east asians back then tbh

Ok, early neolithic China is around 6000-2000 BCE? (I'm pulling this with random Google searching.) I don't have a better example, but if we place the authorship of Abraham from the Bible into a range, he was probably from around 6th c. BCE and back then, they were already stewing their meats (with the understanding that his family was considered extremely wealthy). Different region and developments, of course and I recognise this, but not out of the realm of possibility that that the early Chinese knew how to stew meats, too. Maybe it is something that the more wealthy families did. If so, that skull might not be enough. And if you're poor back then, you might not even have enough food never mind about chewing properly. You probably wouldn't have the necessary nutrients to grow to max genetic potential. Or, you die at a young enough age, or maybe before you finish growing, or before gravity has done its damage on the skull.

 

[Phillybeard1996]

I have a long midface and foward growth and my parents are from south china

 

[Deleted member 2157]

no, their downward growth is not a racial trait. it's just that the natives we have pictures of were already influenced by poorer habits and less chewing so that their faces grew downward. it's not hard to tell that the guy you posted hasn't maximized his potential. in order to have perfect facial development you need to lead a legit caveman lifestyle, even for people like native americans you'd have to go centuries into the past to find "perfect" specimens for the most part.

I shouldn't of used the word downward growth tbh, but natives having tall midfaces is absolutely a genetic trait since all ancient and modern (nearly pure) ones having them. It's not a recession of anything. Kennewick man reconstruction from thousands of years ago

A longer midface doesn't have to be connected with downwards growth though i generally think it's wrong to say 90 percent of asians are down wards grown

This is true

 

[AutisticBeaner]

A longer midface doesn't have to be connected with downwards growth

that's what i said earlier. more forward growth or bigger bones may make your midface appear longer, it's like a factor multiplying the downward growth of the maxilla. in the case of asians, however, it's simple downward growth of the maxilla for the most part.

 

[Deleted member 2157]

more forward growth or bigger bones may make your midface appear longer,

not always tbh, see the african example for it. He has pretty grown bone structure yet a much shorter midface proportionally than native americans

 

[AutisticBeaner]

I shouldn't of used the word downward growth tbh, but natives having tall midfaces is absolutely a genetic trait since all ancient and modern (nearly pure) ones having them. It's not a recession of anything. Kennewick man reconstruction from thousands of years ago
View attachment 711583

This is true

are there any reconstructions of people the lived 10'000 years ago? i just wanna be careful on this. also, one thing that should be mentioned is age. i can imagine that no matter how good your tongue posture is, once you get into older age you might get a bit lazier with it.

 

[reptiles]

I shouldn't of used the word downward growth tbh, but natives having tall midfaces is absolutely a genetic trait since all ancient and modern (nearly pure) ones having them. It's not a recession of anything. Kennewick man reconstruction from thousands of years ago
View attachment 711583

This is true

WTF is kennewick man an Asian no fucking way looks like a full on European could pass as white easily

 

[AutisticBeaner]

not always tbh, see the african example for it. He has pretty grown bone structure yet a much shorter midface proportionally than native americans

do you mean the guy in my signature? either way, yes, that's because he has little downward growth.

 

[Deleted member 2157]

do you mean the guy in my signature? either way, yes, that's because he has little downward growth.

the phenotype I posted, I mean

 

[AutisticBeaner]

the phenotype I posted, I mean
View attachment 711603

oh. but yea, same goes for him

 

[reptiles]

are there any reconstructions of people the lived 10'000 years ago? i just wanna be careful on this. also, one thing that should be mentioned is age. i can imagine that no matter how good your tongue posture is, once you get into older age you might get a bit lazier with it.

Climate also plays a part as well NGL though no race is naturally down wards grown certain ''quirks'' are region specific

 

[Deleted member 2157]

WTF is kennewick man an Asian no fucking way looks like a full on European could pass as white easily

He was actually very native american tbh
But northern europeans and native americans share DNA anyways
They are related genetically

 

[reptiles]

He was actually very native american tbh
But northern europeans and native americans share DNA anyways
They are related genetically

ANE connection right ? but yeah I do see a lot of resemblance. I don't classify them as a part of the asioid race they share no modern day connection to east Asians or south east asian's

 

[Deleted member 2157]

oh. but yea, same goes for him

It definitely doesn't appear in africans like it does in native americans. It's not unhealthy downward growth, just how their facial thirds form

Both of the old inuit women have much larger, taller midfaces than the white guy

 

[Deleted member 2157]

ANE connection right ? but yeah I do see a lot of resemblance. I don't classify them as a part of the asioid race they share no modern day connection to east Asians or south east asian's

yeah, through the ANE. They look like very matured versions of east asians

 

[Deleted member 2968]

Well if you have long midface including shit maxilla and downward growth=some birth defect for sure
But if you have long midface with maxillary projection and no hardcore recession= you don't need to overthink about your development,its most likely phenotype or far grandfather/mother's skull type.
Also Siberian people used to have very long midfaces just like Native American people.In most cases its just long philtrum/rarely long noses.

 

[CasualFapper]

A lot of asians have a “weak” lower third - perhaps due to downward growth causing midface to break facial thirds?

 

[Deleted member 2157]

are there any reconstructions of people the lived 10'000 years ago? i just wanna be careful on this. also, one thing that should be mentioned is age. i can imagine that no matter how good your tongue posture is, once you get into older age you might get a bit lazier with it.

yeah Kennewick man was from around then

Kennewick Man - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[reptiles]

yeah, through the ANE. They look like very matured versions of east asians

I'm having a confusion this FST puts them at opposite sides of the map

https://jaymans.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/global-genetic-distances-map.jpg

 

[Deleted member 2157]

A lot of asians have a “weak” lower third - perhaps due to downward growth causing midface to break facial thirds?

East asians actually tend to have more mass in the mandible than caucasians, it's their lack of gonial tubercles + lack of chin and lack of jaw length that makes theirs look small

 

[AutisticBeaner]

It definitely doesn't appear in africans like it does in native americans. It's not unhealthy downward growth, just how their facial thirds form

View attachment 711606
Both of the old inuit women have much larger, taller midfaces than the white guy

yea that's why i mentioned that larger bones, forward growth (to a smaller extent) and downward growth all work together to create long midfaces. these two inuit women have rather small downward growth i'd say, but that downward growth is multplied by their much larger bones. if you put 2 maxillas that are downward grown to the same degree next to each other and one of them is of larger (thus also longer) then that larger maxilla will create a longer midface than the other. the distance from the mouth to the eyes is longer in the face of the person with the larger maxilla if both maxillas are downward grown to the same degree.