Technological progress has multiplied both comfort and depression in seemingly equal measure. Which metric should a polity thus optimise for?

[imontheloose]

Seems to be between serotonin levels and GDP. So serotonin or GDP, which one marks real progress?

Any ideas @Jason Voorhees, @wishIwasSalludon, @DR. NICKGA, @psychomandible, @Whatever?

 

[1966Ford]

Leave humanity behind, and let technology progress!!!

 

[Punjabi Waffen]

Leave humanity behind, and let technology progress!!!

 

[heightmaxxing]

Average income
The individual should optimise Serotonin

 

[imontheloose]

Average income.
The individual should optimise Serotonin

Why?

 

[Greylarp]

TND

 

[psychomandible]

Government interference stops the incentive to work hard as people can always lay back on welfare and such. Technology can be advanced while also stopping bad factors.

You also say gdp but gdp is not a accurate marker of tech advancement.

 

[imontheloose]

Government interference stops the incentive to work hard as people can always lay back on welfare and such. Technology can be advanced while also stopping bad factors.

You also say gdp but gdp is not a accurate marker of tech advancement.

Fair enough.

But, if welfare blunts effort, what prevents plutocracy from corroding effort at the top when wealth lets elites coast on rents? You say we can filter these bad factors whilst advancing tech, but who decides which factors are bad and by what ethic?

Also, if GDP mismeasures progress, what alternative yardstick, patents, energy ROI, median life-satisfaction, etc., captures technological vitality without skew? Finally, how do you sustain long-horizon innovation once immediate market incentives run dry? Is there any role for collective underwriting, or must every breakthrough justify itself quarterly?

 

[1966Ford]

Fair enough.

But, if welfare blunts effort, what prevents plutocracy from corroding effort at the top when wealth lets elites coast on rents? You say we can filter these bad factors whilst advancing tech, but who decides which factors are bad and by what ethic?

Also, if GDP mismeasures progress, what alternative yardstick, patents, energy ROI, median life-satisfaction, etc., captures technological vitality without skew? Finally, how do you sustain long-horizon innovation once immediate market incentives run dry? Is there any role for collective underwriting, or must every breakthrough justify itself quarterly?

The concerns about welfare and plutocracy are valid. While welfare can blunt effort, wealth and power can also lead to complacency among the elite. We need a balanced approach that addresses distortions at both ends of the socio-economic spectrum.

To measure progress, we should consider a range of indicators beyond GDP, including life-satisfaction, sustainability, and social cohesion. We also need to sustain long-horizon innovation through collective underwriting, patient capital, or social impact investing, decoupling innovation from short-term profit expectations. This holistic approach can create a more stable ecosystem for breakthroughs to emerge.

 

[Gonthar]

 

[Deleted member 51358]

The economy is fake


The whole idea that we have to make “muh gdp line go up!”

In order to live a good quality life is a manufactured psyop to get slaves to print more money for certain people

A lot of jobs are simply artificial and there so that people can be employed and thus be able to buy things

And thus “look line goes up”

Maybe to illustrate how “fake” our economy is right now I’ll give an example

Take the term “unemployment crisis” just think about how insane that idea is

All that means is we don’t need as many people to work to keep society running

But because of the nature economy we put much of these excess people into fake jobs that are to put it bluntly worthless

Another example maybe

Imagine there’s a village it’s small say 50 people

Everyone is a farmer and to till the land they use hoes you know old school style

Then someone comes along and invents the animal drawn plow

So now the work which took 5 people only takes one horse or bull

Now how should the villagers feel about this? They should be ecstatic

But imagine now the villagers complain to the man and say “look at what you have done? Do you know how much unemployment will increase because of your invention how will we be able to work”

That’s our society right now

Anyways if you read all this congratulations

 

[imontheloose]

The economy is fake


The whole idea that we have to make “muh gdp line go up!”

In order to live a good quality life is a manufactured psyop to get slaves to print more money for certain people

A lot of jobs are simply artificial and there so that people can be employed and thus be able to buy things

And thus “look line goes up”

Maybe to illustrate how “fake” our economy is right now I’ll give an example

Take the term “unemployment crisis” just think about how insane that idea is

All that means is we don’t need as many people to work to keep society running

But because of the nature economy we put much of these excess people into fake jobs that are to put it bluntly worthless

Another example maybe

Imagine there’s a village it’s small say 50 people

Everyone is a farmer and to till the land they use hoes you know old school style

Then someone comes along and invents the animal drawn plow

So now the work which took 5 people only takes one horse or bull

Now how should the villagers feel about this? They should be ecstatic

But imagine now the villagers complain to the man and say “look at what you have done? Do you know how much unemployment will increase because of your invention how will we be able to work”

That’s our society right now

Anyways if you read all this congratulations

 

[Deleted member 51358]

View attachment 3793008

I don’t think that the depression we see in the west is some Jew manufactured plot

I say this because essentially what we’re seeing in the exact same thing happening in developed East Asian countries like Japan or Korea

What we’re seeing seems to be a symptom of development more than anything else

I’m going to talk more about it later but I’m gaming rn

 

[imontheloose]

I don’t think that the depression we see in the west is some Jew manufactured plot

I say this because essentially what we’re seeing in the exact same thing happening in developed East Asian countries like Japan or Korea

What we’re seeing seems to be a symptom of development more than anything else

I do think it's fair that depression is a by-product of development, but a few puzzles arise from it. There's this temporal puzzle of, why did the first wave of industrial nations (eg. pre-1914 Germany, early-20th century US) show soaring birth rates and civic optimism, whilst today's high-tech societies trend towards suicidality and demographic collapse? What changed in the texture of this development?

Also a cultural puzzle of Japan and Korea still retaining extraordinary social cohesion and low crime, yet they still battle loneliness and hikikomori. Does that imply material affluence isn't the lone culprit to you? Plus, if rising comfort correlates with falling meaning, should a rational society thus cap comfort to preserve drive, or redesign its institutions to transmute ease into a sort of higher aspiration, so to say?

Lastly, assuming this malaise is structural, who is responsible for counter-weights? Market actors, or a state that curates collective purpose?

 

[Deleted member 51358]

View attachment 3793008

There are 3 principle reasons I think why we’re seeing the depression in developed countries

1. The death of God and the rise of nihilism

A lot of atheists view the decline of relying as something to celebrate but it’s always been something of concern to me

We’ve talked about this before so I don’t want to touch on it much, but one thing I do agree with you is that a sort of “spiritual” death and lack of hope is one of the most dangerous things

Personally I favor the existentialist approach “life must be understood backwards but lived forwards”

“that is to find a truth; a truth true to me”

My two favorite quotes from Soren Kierkegaard

 

[imontheloose]

I don’t think that the depression we see in the west is some Jew manufactured plot

I say this because essentially what we’re seeing in the exact same thing happening in developed East Asian countries like Japan or Korea

What we’re seeing seems to be a symptom of development more than anything else

Maybe I should also add. I do think Japan and Korea prove it isn't simply ethnicity, though homogeneity helps buffer social trust. Even they're cracking under post-industrial ennui. So the enemy here isn't one cabal really; it's a civilisation that forgot how to tell its people why they work, marry, and raise kids. That missing "why" is what I would ideally supply in my state.

 

[imontheloose]

I’m going to talk more about it later but I’m gaming rn

Pat. What games you playing, son?

 

[Deleted member 51358]

Pat. What games you playing, son?

For honor

 

[wollet2]

science is so weak

 

[Deleted member 51358]

why did the first wave of industrial nations

Maybe I should also add. I do think Japan and Korea prove it isn't simply ethnicity, though homogeneity helps buffer social trust. Even they're cracking under post-industrial ennui. So the enemy here isn't one cabal really; it's a civilisation that forgot how to tell its people why they work, marry, and raise kids. That missing "why" is what I would ideally supply in my state.

The reason is there are two other reasons for this depression that I haven’t mentioned yet

But will soon since I’m done gaming now

 

[Deleted member 51358]

Plus, if rising comfort correlates with falling meaning, should a rational society thus cap comfort to preserve drive

No because the relationship between development and depression is manufactured it’s not suppose to be like this I’ll touch more on it later

 

[imontheloose]

There are 3 principle reasons I think why we’re seeing the depression in developed countries

1. The death of God and the rise of nihilism

A lot of atheists view the decline of relying as something to celebrate but it’s always been something of concern to me

We’ve talked about this before so I don’t want to touch on it much, but one thing I do agree with you is that a sort of “spiritual” death and lack of hope is one of the most dangerous things

Personally I favor the existentialist approach “life must be understood backwards but lived forwards”

“that is to find a truth; a truth true to me”

My two favorite quotes from Soren Kierkegaard

Yeah, Kierkegaard is a sharper companion than most moderns keep, true. His truth for me and life lived forwards catch that ache you're describing.

I mean, existentialism can steady one soul at a time, yet the malaise we're discussing is demographic-scale. Essentially, do a million private epiphanies add up to a survivable civilisation?

An interesting question arises from the fact that once transcendence collapses, something is bound to replace it, as we agree. Usually consumption or ideology. But why not consciously crown a unifying myth instead of letting TikTok or Wall Street do it by default?

My main question back is, can existentialism scale into a common story strong enough to bind millions, or is it greater that we forge a public faith (whether that be political, cultural, or even sacred), to shoulder what private truths can't?

 

[imontheloose]

science is so weak

Why?

 

[wollet2]

Why?

useless to help me with what matters to me, makes my life even worse with these stupid reels

 

[imontheloose]

useless to help me with what matters to me, makes my life even worse with these stupid reels

No Latina porn for you if it didn't exist though, son.

 

[wollet2]

No Latina porn for you if it didn't exist though, son.

all the porn i needed was outside science is so weak

 

[Deleted member 51358]

2. Loneliness

Humans are social creatures, we aren’t meant to be alone

Loneliness is as bad for you as smoking a pack of cigarettes a day

Not so sure why this is happening theoretically it’s never been easier to meet people

And yet

 

[Deleted member 51358]

3. The fakeness of the economy

There seems to be a tendency that the more “fake” the economy becomes the worse things get for the spirits of people

You mention why early industrial countries like or 1914 Germany and 20th century america

The reason is multifaceted but largely because there wasn’t a full collapse of belief in god like how we see now

And community was still a thing, people weren’t nearly as lonely

These jobs also had way more purchasing power, a single factory worker could afford to feed his wife and kids and have a decent home

But why does fakeness lead to depression

It’s because the natural order is as technology improves people should be able to work less and there should be less people who need to work at all

People would spend the new time on endeavors which they actually want to pursue

Instead we see the opposite fake jobs are being injected to make line go up hours people are working aren’t decreasing

 

[Deleted member 51358]

3,

 

[imontheloose]

3. The fakeness of the economy

There seems to be a tendency that the more “fake” the economy becomes the worse things get for the spirits of people

You mention why early industrial countries like or 1914 Germany and 20th century america

The reason is multifaceted but largely because there wasn’t a full collapse of belief in god like how we see now

And community was still a thing, people weren’t nearly as lonely

These jobs also had way more purchasing power, a single factory worker could afford to feed his wife and kids and have a decent home

But why does fakeness lead to depression

It’s because the natural order is as technology improves people should be able to work less and there should be less people who need to work at all

People would spend the new time on endeavors which they actually want to pursue

Instead we see the opposite fake jobs are being injected to make line go up hours people are working aren’t decreasing

Will respond later. Thanks for the elab.

 

[Deleted member 51358]

3. The solution to the fake economy

What we need is a universal basic income, otherwise as technology improves then people who are put out of the job market won’t be able to live

What happens is technology improves then fake jobs are made to keep people working and thus injecting money into the economy it shouldn’t be this way

We also need to slash the times people work, a lot of the work we do is simply unnecessary

Technology could easily slash the amount of time people need to spend doing things and since production would actually increase that would mean wages would be able to increase to compensate for the slashed time

This never happens because in our current system it’s sold you about maximizing profits, making lines go up etc

Maybe make a law that says a certain percent of profits must be payed to employees

That way if production increases with technology so will wages

Corporations won’t be able to artificially lower wages

 

[Deleted member 100722]

3. The solution to the fake economy

What we need is a universal basic income, otherwise as technology improves then people who are put out of the job market won’t be able to live

We also need to slash the times people work, a lot of the work we do is simply unnecessary

Technology could easily slash the amount of time people need to spend doing things and since production would actually increase that would mean wages would be able to increase to compensate for the slashed time

This never happens because in our current system it’s sold you about maximizing profits, making lines go up etc

Maybe make a law that says a certain percent of profits must be payed to employees

That way if production increases with technology so will wages

Corporations won’t be able to artificially lower wages

Yeah these are good ideas, but jews don't like them so they will not see implementation.

 

[Deleted member 51358]

Yeah these are good ideas, but jews don't like them so they will not see implementation.

It’s simple less people working = less money injected into the economy by people consoooooming useless shit which then means less profits

So they just create fake jobs so you consooom

The alternative would be implementing the policies I talked about but that would eat into the share of the elites and allow normal people to live happier more luxurious lives

So it will never happen

 

[Deleted member 155121]

lets go back

 

[imontheloose]

lets go back

To?

 

[Deleted member 155121]

To?

goo goo ga ga

 

[Deleted member 51358]

goo goo ga ga

Baby maxxing

 

[psychomandible]

Fair enough.

But, if welfare blunts effort, what prevents plutocracy from corroding effort at the top when wealth lets elites coast on rents? You say we can filter these bad factors whilst advancing tech, but who decides which factors are bad and by what ethic?

well all governments become plutocracies weather you like it or not, nazi Germany became one, the soviet union as well, the USA now. wealthy people should only be wealthy due to either them or their ancestor being a intelligent person and innovating in some way, but while you have government you give the ability of being able to be wealthy off either lobbying or being a parasite (government worker).

Also, if GDP mismeasures progress, what alternative yardstick, patents, energy ROI, median life-satisfaction, etc., captures technological vitality without skew?

I do not have a answer for this but every single yardstick you mentioned can not be accurate either.

F Finally, how do you sustain long-horizon innovation once immediate market incentives run dry? Is there any role for collective underwriting, or must every breakthrough justify itself quarterly?

if there is no demand for innovation in a field then why would you innovate in that field ? market profit is literally just the market demand in a free market economy.

 

[imontheloose]

well all governments become plutocracies weather you like it or not, nazi Germany became one, the soviet union as well, the USA now. wealthy people should only be wealthy due to either them or their ancestor being a intelligent person and innovating in some way, but while you have government you give the ability of being able to be wealthy off either lobbying or being a parasite (government worker).

I do not have a answer for this but every single yardstick you mentioned can not be accurate either.

if there is no demand for innovation in a field then why would you innovate in that field ? market profit is literally just the market demand in a free market economy.

Fair enough.

 

[Deleted member 100722]

I don’t think that the depression we see in the west is some Jew manufactured plot

I say this because essentially what we’re seeing in the exact same thing happening in developed East Asian countries like Japan or Korea

What we’re seeing seems to be a symptom of development more than anything else

I’m going to talk more about it later but I’m gaming rn

There is one thing Westoid countries have in common with Japan/SK, which is low birth rates. That itself is a direct consequence of giving freedom to females. Females enjoying freedom will study until they are 25, work a few years, travel the world, and slowly begin thinking about having baby at age 30.

BY THAT TIME THE AVERAGE AFGHAN WOMAN ALREADY HAD THEIR 5TH BABY.

Lack of babies makes social security pyramid schemes collapse, and Jews+boomers don't want this, so they import infinity browns which lowers wages, societal trust, education levels, general public safety etc. etc.

We are seeing the same happening in Japan.

The solution is, as always: LOCK WOMEN IN CAGES AND BREED THEM.