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Pam Grossman is a writer, curator, practicing witch, and teacher of magical practice and history. Her new book, “Waking the Witch: Reflections on Women, Magic, and Power,” is an exploration into the historical and cultural impact of witches, as well as a discussion of how feminism ties into the witch archetype and practices. Beyond that, “Waking the Witch” is partially a memoir of Grossman’s own personal path to witchcraft and her journey to “embracing the witch.”
From her days as a young girl, Grossman was interested in magic and mythology.
She was coming of age in the 1990s, as the third wave of feminism was hitting its stride. This was the age of Anita Hill, when people started talking openly about sexual harassment and the autonomy of women. On the airwaves, artists such as Tori Amos, PJ Harvey and Bjork were combining mystical and feminist personas, and the dialogue opened up, Grossman said. As a teenager in this environment, she came to the conclusion that magic was something that could be done and not just read about.
Street Roots talked with Grossman in advance of her Sept. 24 appearance at Powell’s City of Books, where she’ll be reading from her new book.
Casey Miller: So what does contemporary witchcraft look like?
Pam Grossman: I identify as a practicing pagan. I am someone who has an altar that I work with. I celebrate the pagan holy wheel of the year and celebrate certain holidays based on the cycle of the seasons and the cycles of the moon. I’m a member of a coven; I do spells and rituals. In that way, I’m doing the kind of witchcraft that people have been doing since the mid-20th century when the witchcraft revival happened. It can also be argued that a lot of those practices are based on older pagan traditions, though there’s a lot of debate about that.
At the same time, I believe that my witchcraft needs to be intersectional and it needs to be mindful about things like cultural appropriation and capitalism. I’m very conscious about the fact that my activism and my magic are interrelated. I am of the belief that if you’re only doing magic for yourself or manifest things that you want in your own life, that’s fine, but you’re sort of missing the point, which is that you’re strengthening yourself so that you can be of service to something greater than you.
I think it’s really important that my magic makes me a more compassionate and empathetic person. And you know, not everybody agrees with that. You’ll find a lot of people who talk about magic-making as an act of self-care. And that’s lovely. I think there’s nothing wrong with that. That’s very, very important. But for me, I want the magic that I make to help better the world at large whenever possible.
Miller: How do you go about doing that?
Grossman: Well, it starts with the kind of people that you’re practicing with. Putting together my coven, it was very important to me that people of all different backgrounds, expressions of female and femme and gender identity, and sexuality were part of the equation. I wanted to make sure it wasn’t just the perspective of the white lady just being reflected back to me. So that has been a really key component.
I’m very blessed in that I live in New York City. I happen to have a lot of friends from a lot of backgrounds. I know not everybody is in that same situation.
Even in my solitary magic making, when I’m doing rituals or spells, I’m often thinking about how I can be of service to something greater than myself, and even in my phrasing, I’m not just asking for things for me. If I’m asking for something for myself, it’s so that I can then better be of use to the most vulnerable people and to this planet. That’s something that has evolved over time. Certainly, when I was a teenager, I was doing spells about love and “I hope I do well on this test” and things that were pretty self-serving.
There are certainly plenty of spells I do for myself or for other people regarding, say, hooking a creative project or helping my friends find jobs or homes. But even with them, I am often phrasing it to help them get these things which can awaken and lift up other people.
Adventures of Sabrina,” in part due to the feminist angle the show has. What do you think of how pop culture and social media seem to come into play in the rise of popularity with witches and so-called “witch culture”?
Grossman: There’s so much good to it, but of course, social media always has its shadow side and its light side. I think social media has been wonderful for amplifying conversation around feminism and intersectionality overall. I do see the popularity of witches and witchcraft as being an important part of that conversation because people tend to be attracted to the archetype of the witch, whether in their spiritual lives or just as an identity for political reasons or cultural reasons. Because the witch is a symbol for rebellion, for subverting the patriarchy and for the “other” narratives, whether that’s women or queer people or trans people or people of color. The witch really represents anybody who’s not in the dominant, oppressive, patriarchal role in society.
FURTHER READING: No wonder modern feminism claimed witches as its martyrs
I don’t really mind when people talk about witches because they just think it’s really cool and trendy and then they move on from it. That’s fine. Maybe it’s not meant to last for everybody. I do mind when people, under the name of witchcraft, become exploitative of vulnerable people. You’ll find a lot of people now who are calling themselves witches so they can sell certain goods or services to people that are not necessarily for the benefit of those people. I do want to make sure that anybody who’s selling witchcraft goods or services has put in the time and thought into what it is they’re selling instead of just capitalizing on a trend.
Cultural appropriation is also a rooted problem in the popularization of witchcraft right now because you have a lot of people, especially white folks, whether they realize it or not, drawing from practices of Indigenous people or Latinx people or people from the African diaspora. And that is hugely offensive. So, those are some of the things that I ask people to be mindful of when they’re calling themselves a witch or buying witchy products or services.
Miller: In your book, you discuss the idea of the femme fatale in league with the devil in early modern Europe and Salem, Mass. How do you feel about this “femme fatale” image of witches – morally ambiguous yet incredibly cunning and possibly even feminist?
Grossman: I think it depends on the context, because I still get a kick out of the witch as a villain or the witch as a femme fatale. That can be hugely entertaining and can also illuminate the areas in which we still have ambivalent feelings about female power in society or in our psyches.
I’m not one of those people who gets offended by those depictions in entertainment. I do get offended when people use calling someone a witch as a way to shame them or shut them up, especially if they’re a woman. You see that a lot in politics, people on either side of the aisle calling female politicians “witches” as a way of discrediting them or shaming them or silencing them. That I have a huge problem with. Then, of course, anytime anyone is accusing someone of being a witch as a means for enacting any kind of harm or violence on them is deplorable.
Miller: You’ve spoken of the power of the internet these days and how social media is a place where women have equal weight and witches can express themselves without apology. Yet social media has also been a place where women who do speak out are often subjected to violent verbal abuse and threats. It’s not necessarily a safe place. How does witchcraft address that, or what do you say to women who’ve experienced the trolling abuse online?
Grossman: Just being a woman in public with an opinion is a dangerous thing to be. And we see this, right? We see that across industry. We could spend the next week just listing all of the women who have been trolled and abused online. In that way, I actually see the witch as a potential fortifying agent because you cannot decouple the archetype of the witch from its history of being a primarily misogynistic archetype. At least since the 14th or 15th century is when it really exploded in earnest. Trying to take back that word has been in progress for the last 150 years or so. Signifying it as a positive, strong, resilient woman or femme is something that I hope a lot of people can draw strength from.
Miller: That kind of berating and shaming women today seems reminiscent of how witches have been treated throughout history. Do you see them as the same thread?
Grossman: That’s exactly what I’m saying. People of all genders were accused as witches during the height of the witch hunts in the 16th and 17th centuries in Europe and in the New England colonies. But it was estimated between 75% to 85% of those people were women. I don’t want to say it’s only women that were accused that lost their lives, but it was mostly women. As you look at the women who were accused, they were what I would call “inconvenient women.” They didn’t have children or enough children. They owned the land that other people wanted to own. They were just a little bit annoying or outspoken.
In the ways that we as a society shame women or point to women who aren’t “womanly enough,” we punish them. Honestly. It’s really often for the same reasons that one might’ve been accused of being a witch back during the witch hunts of Europe and the New England colonies. I think there’s a direct parallel.
Miller: In your Time magazine piece, you wrote, “More than anything … the witch is a shining and shadowy symbol of female power and a force for subverting the status quo” and that the witch is the ultimate feminist icon because “she is a fully rounded symbol of female oppression and liberation.” How do you aim to express this symbolism in your everyday life as a witch and when you’re teaching others about the lifestyle?
Grossman: I would say that when one practices with witchcraft, one is automatically subverting the patriarchy because so much of religious life is still governed by men. By having stories that center male characters, like the religious texts and beliefs of the world’s leading religions, religion is still extremely male centric, despite some nice progress that has happened due to the feminist movement. And I don’t want to underplay that. It’s amazing that religion has evolved a bit, but let’s be honest: The stories that are told and the people who are still telling those stories and leading those rituals are almost always male.
So, I think taking the spiritual practice that centers the “feminine experience,” in which we prioritize nature and the body and honor femininity, is an act of liberalization and an act of future-forward feminism.
Miller: Finally, what do you think men can learn from your book?
Grossman: Anyone can be a witch, and that includes cisgender men and straight men and white men. Certainly, it was important that I say that in the book, and I did. But I would love for them to understand that the feminine experience is important for them to embody, too. That if they learn about the witch or embody the witch, they are engaging in a transformative act of empathy. They can learn about not only the women and femmes in their lives, but also the history of the oppression of those people. The archetype of the witch is inherently linked to that history. So I think there’s a lot of value for someone of any gender to find in my book. I certainly hope so.
From her days as a young girl, Grossman was interested in magic and mythology.
She was coming of age in the 1990s, as the third wave of feminism was hitting its stride. This was the age of Anita Hill, when people started talking openly about sexual harassment and the autonomy of women. On the airwaves, artists such as Tori Amos, PJ Harvey and Bjork were combining mystical and feminist personas, and the dialogue opened up, Grossman said. As a teenager in this environment, she came to the conclusion that magic was something that could be done and not just read about.
Street Roots talked with Grossman in advance of her Sept. 24 appearance at Powell’s City of Books, where she’ll be reading from her new book.
Casey Miller: So what does contemporary witchcraft look like?
Pam Grossman: I identify as a practicing pagan. I am someone who has an altar that I work with. I celebrate the pagan holy wheel of the year and celebrate certain holidays based on the cycle of the seasons and the cycles of the moon. I’m a member of a coven; I do spells and rituals. In that way, I’m doing the kind of witchcraft that people have been doing since the mid-20th century when the witchcraft revival happened. It can also be argued that a lot of those practices are based on older pagan traditions, though there’s a lot of debate about that.
At the same time, I believe that my witchcraft needs to be intersectional and it needs to be mindful about things like cultural appropriation and capitalism. I’m very conscious about the fact that my activism and my magic are interrelated. I am of the belief that if you’re only doing magic for yourself or manifest things that you want in your own life, that’s fine, but you’re sort of missing the point, which is that you’re strengthening yourself so that you can be of service to something greater than you.
I think it’s really important that my magic makes me a more compassionate and empathetic person. And you know, not everybody agrees with that. You’ll find a lot of people who talk about magic-making as an act of self-care. And that’s lovely. I think there’s nothing wrong with that. That’s very, very important. But for me, I want the magic that I make to help better the world at large whenever possible.
Miller: How do you go about doing that?
Grossman: Well, it starts with the kind of people that you’re practicing with. Putting together my coven, it was very important to me that people of all different backgrounds, expressions of female and femme and gender identity, and sexuality were part of the equation. I wanted to make sure it wasn’t just the perspective of the white lady just being reflected back to me. So that has been a really key component.
I’m very blessed in that I live in New York City. I happen to have a lot of friends from a lot of backgrounds. I know not everybody is in that same situation.
Even in my solitary magic making, when I’m doing rituals or spells, I’m often thinking about how I can be of service to something greater than myself, and even in my phrasing, I’m not just asking for things for me. If I’m asking for something for myself, it’s so that I can then better be of use to the most vulnerable people and to this planet. That’s something that has evolved over time. Certainly, when I was a teenager, I was doing spells about love and “I hope I do well on this test” and things that were pretty self-serving.
There are certainly plenty of spells I do for myself or for other people regarding, say, hooking a creative project or helping my friends find jobs or homes. But even with them, I am often phrasing it to help them get these things which can awaken and lift up other people.
Adventures of Sabrina,” in part due to the feminist angle the show has. What do you think of how pop culture and social media seem to come into play in the rise of popularity with witches and so-called “witch culture”?
Grossman: There’s so much good to it, but of course, social media always has its shadow side and its light side. I think social media has been wonderful for amplifying conversation around feminism and intersectionality overall. I do see the popularity of witches and witchcraft as being an important part of that conversation because people tend to be attracted to the archetype of the witch, whether in their spiritual lives or just as an identity for political reasons or cultural reasons. Because the witch is a symbol for rebellion, for subverting the patriarchy and for the “other” narratives, whether that’s women or queer people or trans people or people of color. The witch really represents anybody who’s not in the dominant, oppressive, patriarchal role in society.
FURTHER READING: No wonder modern feminism claimed witches as its martyrs
I don’t really mind when people talk about witches because they just think it’s really cool and trendy and then they move on from it. That’s fine. Maybe it’s not meant to last for everybody. I do mind when people, under the name of witchcraft, become exploitative of vulnerable people. You’ll find a lot of people now who are calling themselves witches so they can sell certain goods or services to people that are not necessarily for the benefit of those people. I do want to make sure that anybody who’s selling witchcraft goods or services has put in the time and thought into what it is they’re selling instead of just capitalizing on a trend.
Cultural appropriation is also a rooted problem in the popularization of witchcraft right now because you have a lot of people, especially white folks, whether they realize it or not, drawing from practices of Indigenous people or Latinx people or people from the African diaspora. And that is hugely offensive. So, those are some of the things that I ask people to be mindful of when they’re calling themselves a witch or buying witchy products or services.
Miller: In your book, you discuss the idea of the femme fatale in league with the devil in early modern Europe and Salem, Mass. How do you feel about this “femme fatale” image of witches – morally ambiguous yet incredibly cunning and possibly even feminist?
Grossman: I think it depends on the context, because I still get a kick out of the witch as a villain or the witch as a femme fatale. That can be hugely entertaining and can also illuminate the areas in which we still have ambivalent feelings about female power in society or in our psyches.
I’m not one of those people who gets offended by those depictions in entertainment. I do get offended when people use calling someone a witch as a way to shame them or shut them up, especially if they’re a woman. You see that a lot in politics, people on either side of the aisle calling female politicians “witches” as a way of discrediting them or shaming them or silencing them. That I have a huge problem with. Then, of course, anytime anyone is accusing someone of being a witch as a means for enacting any kind of harm or violence on them is deplorable.
Miller: You’ve spoken of the power of the internet these days and how social media is a place where women have equal weight and witches can express themselves without apology. Yet social media has also been a place where women who do speak out are often subjected to violent verbal abuse and threats. It’s not necessarily a safe place. How does witchcraft address that, or what do you say to women who’ve experienced the trolling abuse online?
Grossman: Just being a woman in public with an opinion is a dangerous thing to be. And we see this, right? We see that across industry. We could spend the next week just listing all of the women who have been trolled and abused online. In that way, I actually see the witch as a potential fortifying agent because you cannot decouple the archetype of the witch from its history of being a primarily misogynistic archetype. At least since the 14th or 15th century is when it really exploded in earnest. Trying to take back that word has been in progress for the last 150 years or so. Signifying it as a positive, strong, resilient woman or femme is something that I hope a lot of people can draw strength from.
Miller: That kind of berating and shaming women today seems reminiscent of how witches have been treated throughout history. Do you see them as the same thread?
Grossman: That’s exactly what I’m saying. People of all genders were accused as witches during the height of the witch hunts in the 16th and 17th centuries in Europe and in the New England colonies. But it was estimated between 75% to 85% of those people were women. I don’t want to say it’s only women that were accused that lost their lives, but it was mostly women. As you look at the women who were accused, they were what I would call “inconvenient women.” They didn’t have children or enough children. They owned the land that other people wanted to own. They were just a little bit annoying or outspoken.
In the ways that we as a society shame women or point to women who aren’t “womanly enough,” we punish them. Honestly. It’s really often for the same reasons that one might’ve been accused of being a witch back during the witch hunts of Europe and the New England colonies. I think there’s a direct parallel.
Miller: In your Time magazine piece, you wrote, “More than anything … the witch is a shining and shadowy symbol of female power and a force for subverting the status quo” and that the witch is the ultimate feminist icon because “she is a fully rounded symbol of female oppression and liberation.” How do you aim to express this symbolism in your everyday life as a witch and when you’re teaching others about the lifestyle?
Grossman: I would say that when one practices with witchcraft, one is automatically subverting the patriarchy because so much of religious life is still governed by men. By having stories that center male characters, like the religious texts and beliefs of the world’s leading religions, religion is still extremely male centric, despite some nice progress that has happened due to the feminist movement. And I don’t want to underplay that. It’s amazing that religion has evolved a bit, but let’s be honest: The stories that are told and the people who are still telling those stories and leading those rituals are almost always male.
So, I think taking the spiritual practice that centers the “feminine experience,” in which we prioritize nature and the body and honor femininity, is an act of liberalization and an act of future-forward feminism.
Miller: Finally, what do you think men can learn from your book?
Grossman: Anyone can be a witch, and that includes cisgender men and straight men and white men. Certainly, it was important that I say that in the book, and I did. But I would love for them to understand that the feminine experience is important for them to embody, too. That if they learn about the witch or embody the witch, they are engaging in a transformative act of empathy. They can learn about not only the women and femmes in their lives, but also the history of the oppression of those people. The archetype of the witch is inherently linked to that history. So I think there’s a lot of value for someone of any gender to find in my book. I certainly hope so.
