thoughts on a hcg derived cycle?

[AtrophicPyra]

goal is skeletal male dimorphism


hcg 1,500 iu to 2,000 iu
finasteride
low dose ai


skeletal male dimorphism pleatues after 1,000 blood test so i dont see why this wouldnt work

 

[ICL]

goal is skeletal male dimorphism


hcg 1,500 iu to 2,000 iu
finasteride
low dose ai


skeletal male dimorphism pleatues after 1,000 blood test so i dont see why this wouldnt work

Finasteride?
You know, most of the dimorphic facial changes come from DHT. Even testosterone's only goal there is to turn into 5ar and into DHT before they even bind to androgen receptors


Basically, all you did is spike testosterone, block dht, making it useless, and an ai since you will aromatize so much from hcg. But low dose wouldn't be enough.

 

[AtrophicPyra]

Finasteride?
You know, most of the dimorphic facial changes come from DHT. Even testosterone's only goal there is to turn into 5ar and into DHT before they even bind to androgen receptors


Basically, all you did is spike testosterone, block dht, making it useless, and an ai since you will aromatize so much from hcg. But low dose wouldn't be enough.

hm no, so bassically testosteorne itself is an androgen and binds to both cortical bone and trabecular bone strongly whilst dht only binds to corticol bone strongly.

i wouldnt block dht if only it didnt enlarge the prostate.

if u give me a drug that inhibits prostate hypertrohy ill happily take out the finasteride

But low dose wouldn't be enough.

im doing low dose for a week to play it safe and increase the aromasin dose by a bit more, each weak

 

[ICL]

estosteorne itself is an androgen and binds to both cortical bone and trabecular bone strongly whilst dht only binds to corticol bone strongly.

DHT isnt only limited to cortical bone, I don't know where you got this from. In fact it binds to androgen receptors x3 times as strong as testosterone. Additionally it is 2-3 times more potent than testosterone. So now that dht is x9 times effective in AR receptors than testosterone.

i wouldnt block dht if only it didnt enlarge the prostate.

if u give me a drug that inhibits prostate hypertrohy ill happily take out the finasteride

Using DHT isnt immediately gonna give you BPH
It takes people 50-60 years old to actually start to see symptoms of BPH
So you aren't even going to get close to prostate hypertrophy
It's as if claiming you should take finasteride to avoid going bald, at like 16, when the average person STARTS balding at 30.

Just because you use AAS doesn't mean you get these effects instantly!

 

[ICL]

im doing low dose for a week to play it safe and increase the aromasin dose by a bit more, each weak

Use bloodwork


Ur using HCG, 2kiu/week is gonna increase e2 by a ton. People doing that went from 20pg/ml [lowest precentile of healthy e2 levels, you most likely have a bit or so higher] to 40-45pg/ml


This is clearly not going to be fixed with low dose ai. Especially aromasin, since aromasin dosing isnt linear, its curved, so for instance, using 50mg instead of 25mg won't give you x2 less aromatization, even though you x2'd the dose.

This image illustrates what happens with the E2.

 

[AtrophicPyra]

DHT isnt only limited to cortical bone, I don't know where you got this from. In fact it binds to androgen receptors x3 times as strong as testosterone. Additionally it is 2-3 times more potent than testosterone. So now that dht is x9 times effective in AR receptors than testosterone.

Using DHT isnt immediately gonna give you BPH
It takes people 50-60 years old to actually start to see symptoms of BPH
So you aren't even going to get close to prostate hypertrophy
It's as if claiming you should take finasteride to avoid going bald, at like 16, when the average person STARTS balding at 30.

Just because you use AAS doesn't mean you get these effects instantly!

dht is super insfignificant in trabecular bone, prostate enlargement from exogenous dht happens after 3-6 months which isnt even a long period of time.

where did u get its 9x more effective in ar receptors than testosterone? if that were true then fuck my prostate lmao i would take dht.

 

[AtrophicPyra]

Use bloodwork


Ur using HCG, 2kiu/week is gonna increase e2 by a ton. People doing that went from 20pg/ml [lowest precentile of healthy e2 levels, you most likely have a bit or so higher] to 40-45pg/ml


This is clearly not going to be fixed with low dose ai. Especially aromasin, since aromasin dosing isnt linear, its curved, so for instance, using 50mg instead of 25mg won't give you x2 less aromatization, even though you x2'd the dose.
View attachment 4734540
This image illustrates what happens with the E2.

2k iu of hcg would at most raise blood test by 1,000mg from baseline which is identical to taking 200mg of test

you dont lose anything from playing it safe with the e2 from starting small then building up till u feel like shit, also the lower percentile of healthy e2 levels is 10ml-15ml not 20.

btw i cant get bloodwork shit is expensive

 

[ICL]

where did u get its 9x more effective in ar receptors than testosterone? if that were true then fuck my prostate lmao i would take dht.

Can be up to 30, but we're gonna ignore that, we will js say 3

Bro shit happens 10 in potency shit. fold andits 5 fold slower to "detatch" so its there for x5 time for it do to its shit

Additionally the binding to the ar is x3 times stronger than


So now I think its 45x

dht is super insfignificant in trabecular bone,

you gave no source whatsoever. Trabecular bone is affected by DHT!

 

[ICL]

2k iu of hcg would at most raise blood test by 1,000mg from baseline which is identical to taking 200mg of test

you dont lose anything from playing it safe with the e2 from starting small then building up till u feel like shit, also the lower percentile of healthy e2 levels is 10ml-15ml not 20.

btw i cant get bloodwork shit is expensive

the average person has 15-40ml
10ml is getting to a point where they get some bone issues. Closer to healthy than aromatase deficient people, sure, but not exactly healthy range

HCG even stimulates the aromatase enzyme. You would get more aromatization regardless of the increase

 

[ICL]

goal is skeletal male dimorphism


hcg 1,500 iu to 2,000 iu
finasteride
low dose ai


skeletal male dimorphism pleatues after 1,000 blood test so i dont see why this wouldnt work

now rep these posts boiiiiii

 

[AtrophicPyra]

View attachment 4734550
Can be up to 30, but we're gonna ignore that, we will js say 3

View attachment 4734553
Bro shit happens 10 in potency shit. fold andits 5 fold slower to "detatch" so its there for x5 time for it do to its shit

Additionally the binding to the ar is x3 times stronger than


So now I think its 45x

you gave no source whatsoever. Trabecular bone is affected by DHT!
View attachment 4734560

tabecular osteoblasts are more sensitive to estrogen than dht and it NEEDS estrogen for ar activation/growth. im taking ai so its not gonna do shit to my tabecular bones.

ok you have covinced me kind of to not take finasteride but can u please link some studies showing your claims abt how dht is aparently 45x more potent as an androgen than test is? and possibly one that states low risk with prostate?

 

[AtrophicPyra]

now rep these posts boiiiiii

wait no u calculated wrong, its 2-3x more bone anabolic, still good though

 

[birthdefect]

goal is skeletal male dimorphism


hcg 1,500 iu to 2,000 iu
finasteride
low dose ai


skeletal male dimorphism pleatues after 1,000 blood test so i dont see why this wouldnt work

if you're fine with pinning why not just skip to test with hcg as purely testicular maintenance

 

[ICL]

tabecular osteoblasts are more sensitive to estrogen than dht and it NEEDS estrogen for ar activation/growth. im taking ai so its not gonna do shit to my tabecular bones.

ok you have covinced me kind of to not take finasteride but can u please link some studies showing your claims abt how dht is aparently 45x more potent as an androgen than test is? and possibly one that states low risk with prostate?

you won't get BPH from a TRT setting

This isnt a cycle, its TRT, so we can assume TRT Is what we are doing
It takes 2.5 years to get a 33% chance
It's also usually when ur older, there isnt a study on teens roiding afaik, other than hypogonadismcels, which, they don't elevate testosterone they just get it back to baseline


The 45x potency was somewhat confusing but here's my logic
3x more potent than testosterone [fact]
3x more binding Affinity to the AR than testosterone [fact, and also, its not because of potency, its a separate measurement]
and it stays in the AR x5 times longer, so, we can assume,
that DHT does x45 times more work that testosterone [3x3x5]

 

[birthdefect]

dht is super insfignificant in trabecular bone, prostate enlargement from exogenous dht happens after 3-6 months which isnt even a long period of time.

where did u get its 9x more effective in ar receptors than testosterone? if that were true then fuck my prostate lmao i would take dht.

dht when given exogenously is actually relatively prostate sparing compared to testosterone since it doesnt undergo anymore paracrine amplification
if you wanted cortical thickness (which i doubt is likely to occur tbh) something like tren would be better
maybe even combine with a sclerostin inhibitor, dkk1 inhibitor, gsk3b inhibitor, pth analogues, really whatever else is anabolic to bone
or just use filler if its about face

 

[AtrophicPyra]

if you're fine with pinning why not just skip to test with hcg as purely testicular maintenance

because hcg is subq, u dont need pct, and fertility always 100% comes back. also lower dose e2 compared to traditional test cycle


besides i just want 1,000 blood test so then that way when i take a chrondrocyte promoter it promotes male dimorphism more strongly

studies show that male dimorphism pleatues from 1,000 blood test so

 

[AtrophicPyra]

View attachment 4734575
you won't get BPH from a TRT setting

This isnt a cycle, its TRT, so we can assume TRT Is what we are doing
It takes 2.5 years to get a 33% chance
It's also usually when ur older, there isnt a study on teens roiding afaik, other than hypogonadismcels, which, they don't elevate testosterone they just get it back to baseline


The 45x potency was somewhat confusing but here's my logic
3x more potent than testosterone [fact]
3x more binding Affinity to the AR than testosterone [fact, and also, its not because of potency, its a separate measurement]
and it stays in the AR x5 times longer, so, we can assume,
that DHT does x45 times more work that testosterone [3x3x5]

the potency and binding are the same thing, how long it stays is seperate.

i think that image is talking abt normal medical dose trt not superphysiological doses

 

[birthdefect]

because hcg is subq, u dont need pct, and fertility always 100% comes back. also lower dose e2 compared to traditional test cycle


besides i just want 1,000 blood test so then that way when i take a chrondrocyte promoter it promotes male dimorphism more strongly

studies show that male dimorphism pleatues from 1,000 blood test so

test can be subq if you want, and when combined with hcg fertility also comes back at a 100% rate
hcg alone is still suppressive and would likely lower test for a little bit if you dont titrate off, perhaps even if you do titrate off tbh
drop the studies btw id love to read those, and elaborate on chondrocyte promoter
wouldnt that help with longitudinal growth rather than periosteal apposition?

 

[AtrophicPyra]

dht when given exogenously is actually relatively prostate sparing compared to testosterone since it doesnt undergo anymore paracrine amplification
if you wanted cortical thickness (which i doubt is likely to occur tbh) something like tren would be better
maybe even combine with a sclerostin inhibitor, dkk1 inhibitor, gsk3b inhibitor, pth analogues, really whatever else is anabolic to bone
or just use filler if its about face

i feel like the potency of the dht itself would enlarge the prostate not the conversion.

sclerostin inhibitor, dkk1 inhibitor, gsk3b inhibitor, pth analogues

all these arnt sold anywhere but would theoretically work except romoszumab which could decrease ur final predicted height, and pth analogous could give me kidney stones, although i dont rlly know how common they are all ik is it makes ur blood calcium skyrocket.

in my opinion if u want bone growth and longitudal growth vosoritide is the only way with barely any risk although its hard as shit to get a source.

 

[AtrophicPyra]

test can be subq if you want, and when combined with hcg fertility also comes back at a 100% rate
hcg alone is still suppressive and would likely lower test for a little bit if you dont titrate off, perhaps even if you do titrate off tbh
drop the studies btw id love to read those, and elaborate on chondrocyte promoter
wouldnt that help with longitudinal growth rather than periosteal apposition?

so chondrocyte promoters promote edochondral ossifaction which yes makes ur longitudal height taller and also develop ur facial bones and clavs since they have cartilage (your not old and they havent ossified yet.) also what studies r u talking abt

test can be subq?? explain wtf?

 

[birthdefect]

i feel like the potency of the dht itself would enlarge the prostate not the conversion.




all these arnt sold anywhere but would theoretically work except romoszumab which could decrease ur final predicted height, and pth analogous could give me kidney stones, although i dont rlly know how common they are all ik is it makes ur blood calcium skyrocket.

in my opinion if u want bone growth and longitudal growth vosoritide is the only way with barely any risk although its hard as shit to get a source.

paracrine conversion makes hormones significantly more powerful(because of dosing) than endocrine exposure

sclerostin inhibition is only expressed in hypertrophic chondrocytes and bone, and treatment doesnt seem to stunt FAH in rodents
people who have it since birth are taller on average but using it peri pubertally will likely not do anything positive or negative to FAH
calcium side effects are fairly rare with pth/pthrp analogues, and are fairly easy to manage as well
although these are niche compounds, if you know where to search you can find them pretty easily
vosoritide has like little to no effect on bone growth, for longitudinal growth tho its really good and can be combined with gh
infact this combination is currently being trialled for idiopathic short stature

 

[birthdefect]

so chondrocyte promoters promote edochondral ossifaction which yes makes ur longitudal height taller and also develop ur facial bones and clavs since they have cartilage (your not old and they havent ossified yet.) also what studies r u talking abt

test can be subq?? explain wtf?

yea you can take test subq
you can take it with an insulin needle and do shallow im as well if you want
and i know what you mean by chondrocyte promoter i just mean which one specifically
the viscerocranium grows through intramembranous ossification, which has no chondrocytes
i think the ramus might have chondrocytes but i dont remember rn

studies show that male dimorphism pleatues from 1,000 blood test so

was talking about these studies
link some

 

[AtrophicPyra]

paracrine conversion makes hormones significantly more powerful(because of dosing) than endocrine exposure

sclerostin inhibition is only expressed in hypertrophic chondrocytes and bone, and treatment doesnt seem to stunt FAH in rodents
people who have it since birth are taller on average but using it peri pubertally will likely not do anything positive or negative to FAH
calcium side effects are fairly rare with pth/pthrp analogues, and are fairly easy to manage as well
although these are niche compounds, if you know where to search you can find them pretty easily
vosoritide has like little to no effect on bone growth, for longitudinal growth tho its really good and can be combined with gh
infact this combination is currently being trialled for idiopathic short stature

teriparatide is sold like everywhere in indiamart maybe imma think twice abt it bec vosoritide is so hard to find.

i just need smth to stimualte osteoblasts whilst on androgens

 

[AtrophicPyra]

yea you can take test subq
you can take it with an insulin needle and do shallow im as well if you want
and i know what you mean by chondrocyte promoter i just mean which one specifically
the viscerocranium grows through intramembranous ossification, which has no chondrocytes
i think the ramus might have chondrocytes but i dont remember rn

was talking about these studies
link some

it was one shitty study i found showing that males with a natural blood test of 1,000 had idental male dimorphism to males with 800 blood testosterone so i just assumed its the pleatu at 1,000 since u can only have so much androgen receptors pick up on a shit ton of androgens, at that point the androgen sensitivity would matter more.

ye its mostly ur ramus, but i think ur clavs too.

 

[birthdefect]

teriparatide is sold like everywhere in indiamart maybe imma think twice abt it bec vosoritide is so hard to find.

i just need smth to stimualte osteoblasts whilst on androgens

androgens themselves stimulate osteoblasts
mechanical stress as well
and yea pth analogues

 

[birthdefect]

it was one shitty study i found showing that males with a natural blood test of 1,000 had idental male dimorphism to males with 800 blood testosterone so i just assumed its the pleatu at 1,000 since u can only have so much androgen receptors pick up on a shit ton of androgens, at that point the androgen sensitivity would matter more.

ye its mostly ur ramus, but i think ur clavs too.

when androgen receptors are insensitive the main treatment is supraphysiological androgens
you can go past 1000 and get benefits
theres a reason why supraphysiological testosterone would promote dimorphic features like muscle hardness and fat redistribution as well alongside increased anabolism

 

[AtrophicPyra]

androgens themselves stimulate osteoblasts
mechanical stress as well
and yea pth analogues

yeah, but pth analogues boost androgens pathway to male dimorphism right?

also isnt the main way pth analogs work is by increasing ur total blood calcium, so how is the risk of kidney stones non existent?

 

[AtrophicPyra]

when androgen receptors are insensitive the main treatment is supraphysiological androgens
you can go past 1000 and get benefits
theres a reason why supraphysiological testosterone would promote dimorphic features like muscle hardness and fat redistribution as well alongside increased anabolism

ya that makes more sense otherwise ppl wouldnt be taking more than 200mg of test and wouldnt be glorifying taking a gram of test.

 

[combatingNorwooding]

goal is skeletal male dimorphism


hcg 1,500 iu to 2,000 iu
finasteride
low dose ai


skeletal male dimorphism pleatues after 1,000 blood test so i dont see why this wouldnt work

 

[AtrophicPyra]

View attachment 4734782

explain bigot

 

[India lover 52]

yeah bro just desensetize your leydig cells for +300 ng/dl test

 

[ICL]

the potency and binding are the same thing, how long it stays is seperate.

i think that image is talking abt normal medical dose trt not superphysiological doses

1k testosterone is most trt settings
which is your "plateu" goal

 

[AtrophicPyra]

yeah bro just desensetize your leydig cells for +300 ng/dl test

they go back to normal when u get off

 

[AtrophicPyra]

1k testosterone is most trt settings
which is your "plateu" goal

pleatuing at around 1k ig

 

[ICL]

pleatuing at around 1k ig

right

 

[India lover 52]

they go back to normal when u get off

but your still gonna have crashed test for a bit and normal pct drugs won't help at all, all this for natty test levels btw