Tretinoin debunked #4

[Crusile]

So over for tret users
@EverythingMattersCel @ngsk8



redditor debunks tretinoin hard

Spoiler

There is no study on humans that will straight up confirm that topical ATRA will alter facial fat - only evidence suggesting that it can happen, gathered by other people who have suffered this adverse event + some careful "suggestions" from dissenting doctors/researchers, such as the ones from barefacedtruth. It is broadly known that vitamin A and its derivatives are anti-adipogenic. Those who deny that topical tret can damage your face will say that this can only happen with oral isotretinoin in mice or human cell cultures, despite the fact that no human trial of tret has included the state of subcutaneous fat as a data point in the first place - they look at wrinkle depth and superficial UV damage. To tretheads it's as good as "it can't possibly do anything to your fat".

As you know from SCA adjacent circles, people in general have no clue what creates the impression of an "aged" face. Reddit thinks it's "loss of collagen" and "wrinkles", but it really is not. Dermatologists only see reduction in wrinkles as a measure of success, which retinol does accomplish in old people by thickening the dermis at the expense of everything else. Your derm won't even see structural damage to fat pads as a problem in the first place - that's firmly in the realm of reconstructive surgery. It's generally also hard to describe loss of subcutaneous fat in objective terms if no wrinkling and sagging is present - it's just an overall "impression" of haggardness and "difference" that's undeniably there, but isn't something you can easily convert into an objective parameter for a good adverse event report. As far as everyone is concerned, if tret has reversed your wrinkles, it did its job. Most people with tret damage struggle to describe what happened to them for this very reason, so creating a space would be challenging. You'll see that if you look up something like "tret hollow eyes" instead of "tret destroyed my fat" - people don't even know it's fat that made their eyes look full and youthful, they think it's collagen or (my favorite) "hydration". For example, I've recently found someone who has tried making a subreddit, but, she doesn't seem to pin it on fat at all:

https://www.reddit.com/r/RetinA_Ruined_my_skin/

It can all be pieced together once you learn what role facial fat plays in aging, and there is plenty of research that explains what happens to your fat exactly. For example:

https://sci-hubtw.hkvisa.net/10.2147/CIA.S151599

The presence of white adipose tissue is what defines a more youthful skin phenotype, which in turn is defined by more conversion of dermal fibroblasts into adipocytes and adipocyte progenitors + less scarring during damage repair:

https://www.cell.com/immunity/fulltext/S1074-7613(18)30484-9?_returnURL=https://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S1074761318304849?showall=true

ATRA browns your fat and depletes the white adipose tissue levels by "metabolizing" them away, while also preventing new fat from growing back - the article above explains how white adipose tissue is linked to a more "youthful" mode of healing. The subtle onset of "haggardness" that most people report, along with novel inability to heal scarlessly, I'm 99% sure is related to that.

 

[User49]

ye that’s why tret never made sense when it fucks fat pads

fat pads and bone support is arguably more important for aging

 

[Crusile]

@KingKthe9

read 2nd paragraph they debunk collagen theory, hard. OVER for tret users/collagen idiots

 

[MoggerGaston]

tretinoin is crap and destroys your skin. Don't ever use it, it is POISON. As men we have thick skin. All we need is a bit of sunscreen in the summer. Nothing else!

 

[Crusile]

ye that’s why tret never made sense when it fucks fat pads

fat pads and bone support is arguably more important for aging

and high collagen looks bad IRL.
IRL humans (who have brains) like @Crisck @averagejoe go outside to suntan for lower collagen + improved skintone

 

[Tallooksmaxxer]

All we need is a bit of sunscreen in the summer

tbh but standing on the safe side by putting it everyday would be better.

i will get ablative lasers too.

 

[Jigen]

So if Tretinoin is bad? What do you suggest men like me with subhuman tier skin should do?

 

[Crusile]

So if Tretinoin is bad? What do you suggest men like me with subhuman tier skin should do?

adapalene or retinol and exfoliating acids

 

[malicieusss]

Didn't read. All about dosage.
I now put small amounts of tret every 3 days and it improved my skin.

 

[ngsk8]

So over for tret users
@EverythingMattersCel @ngsk8



redditor debunks tretinoin hard

There are no scientific studies confirming this, there are only purely anedoctical user reports which mean shit in the grand scheme of things. Tret has been used for more than 30 years and peoole are happy with the results, its not a couple of people online claiming it made them lose facial fat that should discourage you from using it. Those very same users could be experiencing facial fat loss due to a multitude of reasons, such as losing weight/simply getting old and others.

 

[Jigen]

adapalene or retinol and exfoliating acids

idk those are kind of cope tier supplements especially if you have sun damaged skin or scarring. I’ll stick it out with my two tubes if 0.025 tret. And then I’ll keep a lookout for any bad changes. It’s probably best if you just avoid putting tret where you don’t want any fat loss. Like the eye area. But losing stubborn fat in the nose tip and zygomatic region probably isn’t a bad thing jfl.

 

[malicieusss]

Also, while using tret, stay shy away from your eyes. That means, nobody should apply tret close to their under-eye area.

 

[Jigen]

idk those are kind of cope tier supplements especially if you have sun damaged skin or scarring. I’ll stick it out with my two tubes if 0.025 tret. And then I’ll keep a lookout for any bad changes. It’s probably best if you just avoid putting tret where you don’t want any fat loss. Like the eye area. But losing stubborn fat in the nose tip and zygomatic region probably isn’t a bad thing jfl.

Lmfao I just realized I said fat ass instead of fat loss. Had to edit

 

[forevermirin]

Also, while using tret, stay shy away from your eyes. That means, nobody should apply tret close to their under-eye area.

why?

 

[malicieusss]

why?

It can damage epithelial cells in the meibomian glands and cause significant dry eye symptoms.

Also, the thinner the skin, the less tret you want to apply as these are more sensitive areas (under-eye is one such example).

 

[Deleted member 26657]

 

[forevermirin]

It can damage epithelial cells in the meibomian glands and cause significant dry eye symptoms.

Also, the thinner the skin, the less tret you want to apply as these are more sensitive areas (under-eye is one such example).

holy shit ive been fucking up my eyes this past week man thank god i saw this. my eyes feel dry all the time rn.

 

[Crusile]

There are no scientific studies confirming this, there are only purely anedoctical user reports which mean shit in the grand scheme of things. Tret has been used for more than 30 years and peoole are happy with the results, its not a couple of people online claiming it made them lose facial fat that should discourage you from using it. Those very same users could be experiencing facial fat loss due to a multitude of reasons, such as losing weight/simply getting old and others.

No its legit, Ill make a final debunk by finding unnoticed fatloss in before/after reddit tret users

 

[malicieusss]

holy shit ive been fucking up my eyes this past week man thank god i saw this. my eyes feel dry all the time rn.

you'll be fine, only one week

 

[ngsk8]

No its legit, Ill make a final debunk by finding unnoticed fatloss in before/after reddit tret users

Ok, make sure to include a substancial sample and provide before and after dexa scans for all of them

 

[yellow67]

So if Tretinoin is bad? What do you suggest men like me with subhuman tier skin should do?

sleep nutrition exercise. Seriously stop coping with fucking tret and get those things in check first.

 

[Deleted member 25438]

@KingKthe9

read 2nd paragraph they debunk collagen theory, hard. OVER for tret users/collagen idiots

Yup. Even if you don’t believe that there is good evidence for harmful exogenous collagen reconfiguration (ie increased photoaging), you have to think critically about risk.

https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/label/2014/021108s015lbl.pdf

76% saw worsening, no change, or mild improvement (vs 88% in the control)

They didn’t calculate cohen’s d so I had to do it manually (sample renormed to 100)

Cohen's d = (2.9307 - 2.51) ⁄ 0.911517 = 0.461538

This is what d = .47 looks visually

Only a 13 percent greater chance than random (50%) that someone picked from the treatment group will be better than the control. 82% overlap.

These are the benefits. The primary risk is looking like you are 50 when you are 30. So much to lose and so little to gain. I will be caging all the way to heaven when all you mfs are gonna look like meth addicts in the 2040 irl looksmax.org meetup. Do not hop on tret!

 

[ngsk8]

Yup. Even if you don’t believe that there is good evidence for harmful exogenous collagen reconfiguration (ie increased photoaging), you have to think critically about risk.

https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/label/2014/021108s015lbl.pdf

76% saw worsening, no change, or mild improvement (vs 88% in the control)

They didn’t calculate cohen’s d so I had to do it manually (sample renormed to 100)

Cohen's d = (2.9307 - 2.51) ⁄ 0.911517 = 0.461538

View attachment 2103915

This is what d = .47 looks visually

Only a 13 percent greater chance than random (50%) that someone picked from the treatment group will be better than the control. 82% overlap.

These are the benefits. The primary risk is looking like you are 50 when you are 30. So much to lose and so little to gain. I will be caging all the way to heaven when all you mfs are gonna look like meth addicts in the 2040 irl looksmax.org meetup. Do not hop on tret!

What the fuck are you even talking about, that's in no way how you should measure those stats lmfao.

This is what actually happened during the 24 weeks the study went on (note that 24 weeks in NOT enough for the majority of people to notice big changes on skin, it takes as long as 1 year or more):

Compared to baseline, people taking tret improved 60% on fine wrinkles vs 39% on control group, which is a subtantial difference.

Tret group would have MUCH better results if the study was run for a year or more.

But yeah, muh tret this muh tret that, keep coping while people running tret on their skin care regimen will look young at 50.

 

[Deleted member 25438]

What the fuck are you even talking about, that's in no way how you should measure those stats lmfao.

This is what actually happened during the 24 weeks the study went on (note that 24 weeks in NOT enough for the majority of people to notice big changes on skin, it takes as long as 1 year or more):

60% improved fine lines compared to baseline vs 39% on control group, which is a subtantial difference.

Tret group would have MUCH better results if the study was run for a year or more.

But yeah, muh tret this muh tret that, keep coping while people running tret on their skin care regimen will look young at 50.

Improvement is self assessed. There’s no way to get rid of the inherent biases that comes with that, esp since to my knowledge this study was not double blinded.

 

[Deleted member 25438]

Because of this, you have to take self assessed “mild improvement” with a grain of salt. For all you know it could mean someone saw no visible difference but were convinced via placebo. Regardless, I provided an unweighted cohen’s d so this is really just a non issue imo.

 

[ngsk8]

Improvement is self assessed. There’s no way to get rid of the inherent biases that comes with that, esp since to my knowledge this study was not double blinded.

Works both ways. People on the control group might be biased too.
This qas the fda study afaik, only to get it aproved in the market for wrinkles treatment.

There are much better and longer studies than this one done.

 

[Deleted member 25438]

Works both ways. People on the control group might be biased too.
This qas the fda study afaik, only to get it aproved in the market for wrinkles treatment.

There are much better and longer studies than this one done.

Tret probably works better than nothing to a small degree (at least when controlled for compliancy), but imo the potential long term risks (which have not been completely studied yet) make it dangerous to apply. In the end it comes down to a utility calculus and would depend on someone’s personal situation, but I wouldn’t touch it unless i had major acne

 

[dough]

i used tret and did experience fat pad loss but it was a good thing in my case since my face was chipmunk tier bloated

 

[ngsk8]

Tret probably works better than nothing to a small degree (at least when controlled for compliancy), but imo the potential long term risks (which have not been completely studied yet) make it dangerous to apply. In the end it comes down to a utility calculus and would depend on someone’s personal situation, but I wouldn’t touch it unless i had major acne

It has been used for over 30 years without any major side effects. That speaks for itself.
Why are people afraid to use tretinoin on a looksmax forum its behond me. But you do you

 

[longjohnmong]

sleep nutrition exercise

reddit foid tier advice. surprised you didn't also mention hydration

 

[Deleted member 23218]

No its legit, Ill make a final debunk by finding unnoticed fatloss in before/after reddit tret users

I wanna lose fat tho I want buffalo fat to go away

 

[Deleted member 23218]

@forevermirin where you puttin it on your under eyes!! No Bhai my deems told me not to go there r or near nose folds

 

[Deleted member 16357]

So over for tret users
@EverythingMattersCel @ngsk8



redditor debunks tretinoin hard

Just lol at the picture, its just different lighting. Of course your eyebags and nasolaibial folds will be more visible with side lighting.

 

[j05]

So over for tret users
@EverythingMattersCel @ngsk8



redditor debunks tretinoin hard

fuck sake i just spent £30 on one tube of tret from some pharmacy online now im not gonna use it

 

[IAMNOTANINCEL]

So if Tretinoin is bad? What do you suggest men like me with subhuman tier skin should do?

Eating raw meat

 

[okwiwhd]

So over for tret users
@EverythingMattersCel @ngsk8



redditor debunks tretinoin hard

I was gonna type a paragraph to say how dumb this post is but I don’t even want to bother.

 

[bradpittshairline]

So if Tretinoin is bad? What do you suggest men like me with subhuman tier skin should do?

Use retinol

That woman’s fat pads didn’t melt Jfl it’s just that tret dried her skin.

Eye area skin is already drier than other parts of face so tret raped it

 

[bradpittshairline]

fuck sake i just spent £30 on one tube of tret from some pharmacy online now im not gonna use it

Don’t use it on eyes and use moisturizer nigga

You niggas have no IQ

 

[j05]

Don’t use it on eyes and use moisturizer nigga

You niggas have no IQ

it will migrate to the eye area when sleeping and someone said it eroded their bone and made their eyes pop out of skull

 

[bradpittshairline]

it will migrate to the eye area when sleeping and someone said it eroded their bone and made their eyes pop out of skull

I experienced this on accutane but after I started applying moisturizer and sunscreen on my under eyes this reversed

It’s just from skin being dehyrated and your barrier being raped

 

[j05]

I experienced this on accutane but after I started applying moisturizer and sunscreen on my under eyes this reversed

It’s just from skin being dehyrated and your barrier being raped

i might use it. Just really scared that tret will destroy my under eye support even more and i’ll descend to truecel tier

 

[bradpittshairline]

i might use it. Just really scared that tret will destroy my under eye support even more and i’ll descend to truecel tier

Just keep distance u will be good