dnrNOTE: EXTREMELY LONG THREAD. I don't take pride in writing threads this long. Just wanna get as much out of my system ASAP. This thread is basically a compilation of scrapped writings I deemed unsuitable as standalone threads, and instead combined them into a tier list. Read it if you have nothing better to do. Otherwise post "DNR" to bump my thread k thanks.
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This thread was originally going to be a response to copers who say that “sex is overrated” after paying an escort to lose their virginity. They be like “I paid an escort to lose my virginity!! I fucked her with a condom for 5 minutes!! Sex is overrated guys!! Let’s pack up and go home bois!!” Or they’re like “I'm a millionaire and betabuxxed a single mom. She screwed me over!! Sex is overrated guys!! There are more important things in life!! Focus on your legacy guys!!”. The level of cope and sour grapes from these guys is just stratospheric. Of course, even 5, 10, 20 years after I stop posting here, people will still continue to debate and cope by telling their friends that "sex is overrated". They don't understand that the context behind how you had sex matters more than the act itself. You can’t teach nuance.
Male and female
Take a look at the gender symbols for male and female. The Mars symbol is an arrow pointing upwards, like a symbol for perpetual change or constantly being on the offensive. Whereas the Venus symbol is like a church or a sanctuary. Gender roles exist for a reason. It’s less about shaming women's choices but recognizing that biology doesn’t care about egalitarian ideals. Women can absolutely exercise the same freedoms. But the consequences aren’t symmetrical. Feminism’s blind spot here is assuming equal behavior leads to equal outcomes.
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In a poetic and classical metaphysical sense, the earth is feminine since they represent what is inherent. Whereas man-made creations like fighter jets flying over the earth and amidst the sky are masculine since they represent the innovation of mankind, a phallic arrow of steel and fury, piercing the veil of the inherent with calculated precision. The feminine represents what already is, and the masculine is what could be. With women as the "inherent" gender, and men as the "exiled", to have sex with a woman is to return to nature itself. Hence, sexual intercourse is like a form of “homecoming” for a man. With the rise of AI, I see sexual intimacy with women as a way to reconnect with nature.
Men would often disparage women as being the "inferior sex", weaker, helpless, less capable of critical thought, childish, small, etc. Basically, they’re what you would consider relatively "subhuman". Yet their relative "subhumanity" is exactly why they're so compelling to men. It's quite ironic yet fascinating because no matter how much weight you lift, how competent or famous you become as a man, women don't need to compete with you in an absolute sense to have an effect on you. You can basically have the entire world in the palm of your hand. Yet all it takes is an 18-year-old babe with a nice hip-waist ratio, pretty face, hair, nails, and anything that screams femininity to make such a man's heart secretly skip a beat. Cuckeddits waste a lot of time and energy focusing on “muh shared hobbies and common interests”, not realizing it was never about being equals but appreciating that men and women are fundamentally different. The fact that she is not like me at all, and is relatively "subhuman" when measured up against cold rational metrics, is exactly what makes it hot.
In a vacuum, with no expectations of a woman being logical, intelligent or contributing to my peace of mind, I actually really like them in general. It seems that no matter how skeptical I am of women, the moment one of them laughs at one of my dumb jokes in a dorky, unapologetic manner, it never fails to warm my heart, even if I know they're an absolute whore. The "inferiority" of women is exactly what makes them "equal" to men, and the ultimate cosmic punchline and prank on us all.
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The importance of categorizing women
I don’t think there’s such a thing as a woman being “too much to handle” as long as one has clear expectations of what they’re getting out of them. Shitlib society expects us to date/fuck/marry a woman with whom we have things in common over anything else. Personally, I think this creates a lot of confusion and chaos since having things in common does not equate to peace of mind. I'm a pretty simple man. As long as they're female and give me peace of mind in a particular moment in time, they don't need to have anything in common with me.
Learning how to categorize women keeps me from wasting my energy hating them. That’s compartmentalization in a nutshell. Most men aren’t able to do this well, hence they end up mixing them all together and developing feelings for a woman too easily. As long as they’re providing what I expect out of them within the framework of their “archetype” or particular sexual relation, women can be absolutely amazing (not in a simpy way but as in describing a certain drug as “amazing”). It’s about finding ways to get a “high” from women, even from the smallest interactions.
Of course, if you're able to casually slay a hundred times over, this tier list wouldn't really apply. But this ranks them in a way that assumes you're an average guy (or worse) who is only able to experience each type of sexual relationship once. My worldview of relationships with women is kinda like a hybrid of pragmatic empiricism and utilitarian outcomes. In terms of moral alignment, it's as chaotic neutral as it gets. Without it actually being put into words, my mind basically asks, "Does this choice lead to more benefits while minimizing suffering proportionally? If not, adjust and so on". This is basically cost-benefit analysis/game theory in a nutshell. Sometimes knowing what not to do is more important than knowing exactly what to do.
Tier S (mythical)
LTR with virgin
Of course, this cannot be a Sloppyseconds thread without me bringing up virgin girls.
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Why do some guys shame you for wanting a virgin girl by saying "only incels that don't wanna be mogged by guys with bigger dicks want virgins!!"? Because running on the treadmill that makes them look productive to society (yet leads to nowhere) is the only thing they know about. Think about it logically. In a sporting competition, let's say boxing. Would you rather have your opponent fully energized or tired? Tired of course. If you want to win, why would you care for the best interests of your opponent? Same thing for virgin girls. You'd rather have your "competitors" constantly needing to prove themselves (often for rewards that don't really exist) than to watch everyone from the sidelines without stress. By getting the average man to stress over slaying, they're more likely to incur more opportunity costs.
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Subconsciously, the desire for a virgin wife might also stem from a truth-seeking drive. Just like how I think it’s one-on-one discussions that are most fruitful for truth-seeking, a person is only rewarded justly when there is no peer pressure for the other person to please everyone else. Similarly, it’s why choosing LTR women with previous sexual partners can be more problematic, because even though her past lovers might not be physically present anymore, they still reside within her sexual psyche (even if they had small dicks). That, of course, dilutes pair-bonding ability. There's a reason women with zero premarital partners generally have the lowest divorce risk. Hence, when you're making love to her, you’re not engaging in a one–on-one “dialogue” anymore, but also with her past lovers. It’s why I believe in JBF (Just Be First) because only then will a woman’s emotional reciprocation be at its strongest. In other words, they are able to love the most truthfully when no other man has savored them before. Otherwise, you’ll only be getting a distorted version of the love and affection they were originally capable of, and anything that comes out of their mouth might as well be lip service. Isolation from the herd and focusing on one-on-one dynamics are the closest thing to being able to reach the perfect form in a Platonic sense. This is a middle finger to this post-truth, izzat-driven world.
An insidious poison of this world (izzat = jeet brainrot):
The burning desire for something "real" in a performative world
I envy guys who lost their virginity with a virgin girl, just messy, explorative sex with one another. They managed to start off completely "straight" in this godforsaken world where indirectly rubbing with other dicks in the vaginal canal is the norm. Hence, most guys who had sex are “indirectly bisexual”, as I would put it. In practice, an LTR with a virgin woman that developed organically (think childhood/high school/college sweethearts) is something that will never be experienced by the vast majority of men. I'm not afraid to admit that I'm increasingly likely to join this "vast majority. Frustratingly enough, many women seemingly had their first time with some "loser" that they dated for a month when they were 16 or younger. Whenever I hear a girl reveal this, I often get a "so close, yet so far" feeling.
One issue I have is that I can be extremely possessive, even if I don't openly manifest it. Back then, when I was still talking to my virgin oneitis, sometimes I randomly decided to stop by and watch some 3D educational videos on the female reproductive system pushed by the algorithm on YouTube. I had this tendency to project her onto the vagina being depicted, and when I scrolled down into the comments section, I saw guys being smartasses and trying to be funny. It felt as if they're talking about my oneitis. Hence, it made me have the urge to quickly text her as if to "possess" her in that moment and not let other guys do so. I had this “You are every woman in the world to me” ahh worldview, and still do to some extent if there's a woman (who I suspect is a virgin) that lives in my mind rent-free. You might say, "fucking multiple virgin girls already attracted to you mogs". But I think that actually dilutes the intensity since your sexual desire will be so dispersed. The thrill of having a virgin oneitis/gf from childhood/high school/college comes from the fact that it cannot be replicated once she is lost forever. All sexual desire is focused on one woman, and when that "first time" actually happens, it's the highest peak you can get. Even if she eventually leaves, that "first time" is what makes everything worth it.
I imagine some users lurking here have a virgin oneitis/gf that they've known from childhood and feel cocky about it even though they haven't even fucked yet. They'll feel as if they have a "secret weapon" up their sleeve and are guaranteed to "ascend", unlike the other "loser incels" here. But reality check time:
JBF DEBUNKED [WARNING EXTREMELY BRUTAL THERMONUCLEAR BLACKPILL]
Found this extremely brutal post on Rareddit, easily the most brutal thing I’ve ever read since I’ve been in the blackpill jfc :feelsbadman:. Even if you JBFmaxx your gf will still get her back blown out by a Chad Well some other guy just took my [18 M] g/f (now ex I guess) [17 f] virginity...looksmax.org
I've already shared and mentioned this post in my past threads, but basically it's about a dude whose family and his girlfriend’s were close. They grew up together, and their mothers were even sorority sisters and best friends. The girlfriend agreed to no pre-marital sex with each other. But this promise was broken when she went to a leadership program for 2 weeks, and during that time, she cheated and lost her virginity to some rando that pumped n dumped her. With all those formative bonds contributing to the buildup, it could’ve been a one in a million fairy tale in a cold and merciless world. But she threw it all away for one night of rando cock that didn’t commit. And that's how the poor guy got cucked, thinking that his life was set. If you're feeling cocky about having a virgin oneitis/gf that you keep in contact with, you may potentially suffer the same fate. Until you've actually fucked her, she might as well be no different from any other whore. Just saying.
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Mindset when talking to a "virgin"
A depiction of my inner monologue when gradually learning about a "virgin" girl's past while keeping up a stoic fuckboi facade in front of her:
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Nowadays, I talk to women with the underlying assumption that they’ve taken at least one dick, or at best, texting another guy. Hence, I now try my best to avoid intellectual discussions with women and opt for talking about frivolous bullshit to avoid emotional attachment. One mental trick I have when talking to women that I assume is a virgin is trying to imagine them as milfs (40+), as I feel much more unrestrained when flirting with them. Under the Madonna Whore Complex, I see milfs as "whores" by default. For me personally, flirting is basically a catharsis of sexual energy, not necessarily because I want to increase the woman’s interest towards me.
I proceed with the assumption that any woman who has caught my eye will have had at least one other man who fantasized about her in the same way as I have, the same fetishes and everything. A girl could’ve been through stage 4 cancer, been kidnapped, lost their limbs, gone through multiple near-death experiences, had a close family member/friend pass away, all within 6 months. You would think she'd treat herself with respect and her body like a temple after allat. But I won’t be surprised anymore if they still managed to find the smallest time frame to slip some randos dick in without making anything official.
I've been told that seeking out raw desire from women is "cope" and "idealistic" and that I should be a dependable guy who is financially secure. But what is truly idealistic in this case is thinking that spending money on a woman would make her feel raw desire towards me. Contrary to what jeets think, I think the highest value man in a woman’s eyes is the one who manages to open her legs with the least amount of effort, time and energy spent on her. The moment you consider using money to impress her, you doom yourself to being the second-best at the very most. Hence, I no longer try to make myself seem like a dependable guy to the women I'm interested in anymore. If they need my help and it isn't urgent or life-threatening, I'd just delay it or troll them, being like "what's in it for me?". Basically, I treat it as an opportunity for me to flirt aggressively. Sure, my inner conscience would make me panic when she gets mad at me. But it's worse to not take her emotions on a rollercoaster than to make her angry. I'd rather find out she has no raw desire for me, but keep all my money than to have spend all my money on her to find the truth.
Since you want to keep the thrill high, it's not advised to ask about her virginity status since it'll make you look like a choirboy, and she'll most likely lie. You should only ever let your guard down a little once you've found out she's actually a virgin with your own eyes. If she says she wants to wait till marriage in today's age, be extremely cautious and have an exit plan in case of divorce rape.
TL;DR:
Pros:
- Exclusive first-time intensity that's irreplaceable
- Maximal pair-bonding & emotional truth
- Potential for lifelong peace of mind & possession thrill
- Spiritual "homecoming" to feminine nature
Cons:
- Massive emotional devastation if lost
- Potentially low sexual variety (will require you to be imaginative to keep things exciting)
Tier A (as good as it gets realistically)
LTR with virgin (with the help of money and status)
If anyone here ever bags a virgin woman in the 21st century, it'll most likely fall under this category. While you might still have some hope of developing an LTR with a virgin woman from raw passion during college, once you graduate, that's when things start getting ugly (*gulp*). This could differ between individuals, but once you reach a certain age milestone, whether it's 20, 25 or 30+, having to leverage money and status to bag a virgin woman might be your only option. Basically, the day when you start looking noticeably aged (post-prime or just being a clapped mf to begin with) is when you're hard-capped at this tier of sexual relationships. S-tier becomes forever out of your reach at that point.
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One unappreciated benefit of being low-key in both money and fame is that when people express their appreciation towards you, it's the closest thing to the true you being appreciated. There's no external halo distorting how you are perceived by other people. Once you acquire a money/status halo (especially status), it's a one-way trip for the better or worse.
While not always the case, acquiring a virgin wife with the help of money is often associated with geomaxxing. I imagine some geomaxxers pretend that they're Lawrence of Arabia and see themselves as an "exotic god" when they touch down in any third-world country. But I think many guys underestimate the spiritual toll of geomaxxing as they're basically throwing themselves in a country where they are merely a "stranger in a strange land". They're almost giving up everything they were emotionally attached to in hopes of getting something that makes up for all they've sacrificed. Very few geomaxxers are also genuinely excited about the new country/culture for its own sake. Moving abroad means losing your roots, friends, language comfort, and a place you can truly call "home". It's simply an astronomical opportunity cost.
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The paradox about the "trad wife" from a third-world country is that if the woman is truly traditional, they wouldn't give up all their values, traditions and morals just for some random outsider flashing some cash in front of them. In most cases, the geomaxxers that do manage to bag a "virgin" wife are bagging the most morally corrupt women of that respective country. Those are the complete opposite of trad and are most likely using the man for a better lifestyle. Once they get their green card and basic materialistic needs are met, they wouldn't hesitate to jump on some better cock once they've "settled down" with one another. The best-case scenario towards the end of such an ordeal is that the guy managed to take the "trad" woman's hymen and take pride in that for the rest of their life. But that's really about it after the guy had to uproot themselves and sacrifice their own spiritual security to do so. When you put it that way, a man's "prime" is just as short as a woman's.
Misconceptions about "trad" women in East Asian countries
Some asian user here spoke with me about a concept in China about single women who are 27 and over being called "leftover women". If this is anything like the West, I don't think it's their age that's their biggest concern for men, but their sexual history. I'd rather date a 27-year-old virgin woman than a 19-year-old who once got into a one-night stand. The former shows Olympian-level discipline, while the latter, while young, threw away something they cannot get back in a heartbeat.
I think women in China who demand all these materialistic things from a man, like having a car, house, etc, so that they both can have a "bright future" instead of "struggling together", are using it as an excuse to cover up something darker. If a woman is listing all these demands, she'd better be a virgin, nothing less. The only reason that they think spending time with a man who doesn't have those things is having to "struggle together" with them is that they are not their first pick. If a man truly made the woman feel wet without effort, it wouldn't be a "struggle", and they wouldn't make these demands in the first place. I think Confucianism could potentially be used as a cover-up for women's own degeneracy. In Japan, there's also a term called "hikikomori" (which isn't too different from NEET), and women are basically rotting at home as well from societal pressures. However, that doesn't eliminate the fact that they are one text/phone call away from getting dick. Don't let their minimalistic lifestyle fool you and give you false hope. They still have access to smartphones and social media like any other Western woman.
That's my heads up for any geomaxxers expecting things to be different in asian countries. When you look at their language, there's a reason that the Chinese characters/Kanji radicals for "woman" (女) form the kanji "姦" (basically forming a group of women) associated with negative meanings like "evil", "rape", "selfish", "obscenity, disloyal", etc. Men in Ancient China were based as fuck honestly. They saw those patterns early on and even immortalized them in their language. So it turns out, I'm not completely crazy for imagining women as demonic sex nymphs and the "OG perverts". Female nature is universal. It's as if they saw women as the progenitors of chaos and immorality. This isn't far-fetched at all, given that the moment women were "liberated" and embraced immorality, many men around the world felt it was pointless to white knight and just gave up. If a church were renovated into whorehouse, don't expect men to treat it as a place worthy of respect any longer.
TL;DR:
Pros:
- Still gets the virgin hymen + pair-bonding prize
- Possible in post-college age if you have resources
- Can feel like "winning" against hypergamy odds
Cons:
- Tainted halo effect (appreciation may not be for the "true you")
- Huge spiritual/opportunity cost (uprooting roots, becoming "stranger in strange land")
- High risk as her ending up with you indicates she's among the more morally flexible women in her society -> eventual branch-swinging
Tier B (peak in everyday life):
Hagmaxxing
LTR with virgin you met in a sus contextYou read it right. Yes I ranked hagmaxxing as the best type of sexual relationship you can have with a non-virgin woman (third overall) with all things considered. Is this satire? No, I'm dead serious. Inb4 "you're just coping with hags because you can't get prime fertile women!!". The things that put hagmaxxing so high up for me are firstly the tabooness. It's like trying to stick your dick in something you're not supposed to. But that's exactly why it's so thrilling in the first place. While prime women are also incredibly enticing, chances are they aren't virgins and that kinda ruins the thrill for me. The thrill of hagmaxxing also comes from not committing and its secrecy. Anyways, when I use the label "hag", I use it rather affectionately since they're much more tolerable (excluding Karens) than most young women in my experience.
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Sexual experience in an older woman is to be expected. Thus, there's nothing from that which would catch me off guard. In this case, unlike with a virgin woman, it actually makes sense to try to be the best guy the milf ever had and dethrone all her past lovers. There's a thrill from feeling like I'm "punching above my weight", having someone far "greater" than myself who is at least twice my age right at the palm of my hand, emotionally and spiritually. However, that's not the case for younger women, hence I feel visceral disgust if they have a past. It's like sexual experience in older women is a "feature", but a "bug" in younger women. Personally, this has nothing to do with "mommy issues" but might also be another manifestation of the Madonna-Whore Complex since there's nothing to really hold back on sexually in front of an older woman. Unlike with younger women who are often like "ew you're into feet?", there's a greater chance of being able to boldly express your sexual fetishes with less judgment from them. After all, they often like to claim "I've seen it all". Hence, you feel much more relaxed and willing to whip out your dick in front of her without much hesitation. It's like holding in your piss for an entire car trip and then finally being able to let it all out at the gas station toilets. Not only that, but compared to younger women, you could risk showing off your intellectual side and not be seen as an absolute autist. Instead, they might be like "you're sooo mature for your age!!" while pinching your cheek or giving you the affectionate "good boy" pat on the head. Obviously, you still shouldn't go on a blackpill rant in front of them like a retard.
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If you're very lucky, the milf might even financially support you and basically act as your sugar mommy. That's probably the best-case scenario in any sexual relationship with a non-virgin woman nowadays. As twisted as it sounds, with milfs you can be certain that another man invested more effort into her than you have. Hence, it often feels like there’s very little to lose compared to dealing with younger women. This all checks out when you think of it from a game theory/cost-benefit analysis perspective. Less exertion yet far more rewards. I don't think there's a commonly accepted minimum age for a woman to be considered a "milf". Generally, it seems to be 40, yet I've heard guys call women as young as 25 "milfs". Personally, the taboo thrill only kicks in when the milf is already in the menopausal age range or 45 at the bare minimum. IMO, that's when it truly becomes "sex for the sake of sex" itself. I hear guys call women in their 30s "milfs" all the time, but that's still a bit too "young" for me, as they can still bear children and give off "older sister with big age gap" vibes. One of the major downsides is that the appeal of milfs only applies when you’re still a relatively young man. I imagine once you reach their age range (40s or as early as 35), the taboo thrill is lost, and you’ll have to “upscale” to literal grannies JFL. If I wanted to seek a woman twice my age at 35, she'd probably look too old to trigger my kink at that point. Whereas at 25, a woman twice that age is perfect for it. If you're also an emotionally sensitive guy, self-sacrificial acts from the milfs with seemingly no benefit on her end may make you catch feelings for her. Not to mention her repeatedly calling you a "good boy" could soften you up a lot. This could sow the seeds of a tragedy, although this applies to women of any age.
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Fucking hags = Women going for sub-5 ethnics???
I think the logic as to why I'm into this is also reminiscent of when I wrote about why young white women sometimes go for sub-5 ethnic men. It's how young women go through "burned" and traumatized by chad pumping and dumping them that they resort to dating those men for security purposes. In addition, those women get a taboo thrill from the fact that there's something "wrong" with them, whether it's from their ugliness or ferality, as if they're a horde of goblins about to conquer them. In my case, there's also something "wrong" with milfs too. The thrill comes from the fact that it feels like I'm sticking my dick into the Elephant's Foot in Chernobyl. Both are patterns that seemingly emerge from extreme trauma, where chasing every taboo kink possible feels like the only way to numb the pain. Due to the combination of hormonal changes and natural aging of women, it produces a compound called 2-nonenal. This compound contributes to the musk (typically starting at the age of 40) that distinguishes them from younger women. In a way, enjoying milfs is like enjoying aged wine or cheese. Both the aging process of the women and food create new flavors and scents that are more earthy and smoky. This provides you with an outlet that even younger women can’t scratch.
Hell I'm even considering hagmaxxing full on if my dreams of getting into a desirable LTR don't come to fruition. Not that I would ever settle down with a milf, but rather seeing it as a gateway to an "exotic vacation", enjoying fine wine and blue cheese, figuratively speaking. I suppose it's a way of coping with being in a state of spiritual poverty by adding spice to it. In this timeline, I'd probably be almost like a gigolo, being a companion and crooning to older women at karaoke bars. If it isn't obvious enough, it's not ideal and is still a massive cope despite the rollercoaster of emotions it can potentially provide you. But what else can you do when the S-tier relationship is seemingly out of your grasp forever?
My even crazier take:
Call me crazy, but a friendship (that is truly platonic and intellectual) with an older woman is far more likely than with a younger one, even if it remains incredibly idealistic. This is something I tried developing with my virgin oneitis, which obviously ended up in flames. Even though it's far from being guaranteed, once the sexual stuff with the milf stops, the fact that she's an older woman means three things:
1) No expectation of commitment from you, like a younger woman tends to have. She should already be hyperaware of how male desire works at that age; hence she should know better than to play the blame game. You are male, she is female. It's that simple. Back in the caveman times, it's unlikely you would've complained if a milf/hag was your only option as a mate in your short lifespan back then.
2) She is likely to go into mentor/auntie mode naturally, as she'll then start seeing you as someone who reminds her of her nephew or the nephew she never had. There's something really heartwarming about an older figure looking out for you and giving you advice. Even if the advice is "water", it's the thought behind it that makes it heartwarming. But like I said earlier, self-sacrificial acts from them with seemingly no benefit on her end may make you catch feelings for her. That is something that requires caution.
3) There's more room for intellectual bonding, and ironically, the prior sexual history would actually amplify the depth of the friendship here. Every hug, every knowing glance, every cheek kiss carries a faint echo of what was. But you both consciously choose not to act on it. This underlying tension, without release, can potentially feel more electric than the sex itself ever did (although not exclusive to this age gap dynamic). The age gap also makes it very reminiscent of Plato’s ideal in some ways (originally it's supposed to be a homosexual sexual relationship between an older and younger male JFL). This is where the older partner (her) naturally takes on the role of guide/mentor, sharing wisdom and life experience. While the younger partner (you) brings vitality and a fresh perspective, while exercising restraint and learning to value non-physical beauty. The prior sexual history proves the attraction was real and grounded in the body. But the conscious choice to transcend sexual love makes it feel authentic. Of course, this is incredibly idealistic, but then so is any kind of friendship/relationship that reaches this point.
I could already anticipate someone asking, "What if the hag is still a virgin?" My first reaction would be me thinking that they watched too much Frieren. In all honesty, I would actually be weirded out and find it uncanny rather than sexy. Blood coming out of a wrinkly menopausal vagina is not a pretty image. A large part of hagmaxxing is to get that taboo thrill of an experienced sex demon and the challenge of trying to dethrone her past lovers. Not to mention that older women would have accumulated tons of baggage, whether emotionally or spiritually, so it won't be the same as a young virgin. At most, I might bump it into A tier, and it wouldn't really make a difference since it would still be third overall. Even then, this hypothetical is not exactly something I'm too enthusiastic about JFL. If I land one, hooray I guess.
TL;DR:
Pros:
- Strong taboo thrill (basically like sticking it in Chernobyl Elephant's Foot)
- Low emotional risk, easy fetish expression, no judgment
- Potential sugar mommy upside + mentor/auntie dynamic
- "Sex for sex's sake" purity; post-sex platonic friendship possible
Cons:
- Age taboo thrill fades as you get older
- Risk of catching real feelings from motherly nature (not always but common)
- Not a "virgin" experience (experienced sex demon)
- Still a cope/vacation from ideal
- Increased STD risk
Friends with benefits (FWB):As much as I yap about virgin girls, the evidence of their hymen alone is not enough for me to fall head over heels for them. While plenty of guys here cry about wanting a virgin girl, they never think of the context in which they're able to find them. At this point, you probably just want me to shut up about virgin women.
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For instance, my virgin oneitis back then revealed their virginity status in a group with other guys in it. She might've been seeking attention by revealing her virginity status, perhaps wanting guys to fight over her (or just being naive). It's like those "virgin" girls that go on Youtube shows like "Guess who's the virgin?". It makes me question their motives, as there's already the first layer of exclusivity lost (knowledge of her sexual experience being made public). The most organic LTRs with virgins should not start with the girl broadcasting it to everyone she meets. It should be something you find out when you're alone with her.
The "virgins" that you should be most careful of are the ones you find while clubbing, the place you're supposed to be slaying (or be slayed). In such a scenario, I would think, "What the fuck are you even doing here?", and simultaneously feel incredibly lucky yet unlucky. Many guys in this situation would have a savior complex and would want to provide her "shelter" from the "evil" of the world. But she already walked into a room of "evil" through her own volition. Hence, if you manage to vibe with her, the most optimal move you could make is to enjoy your "kill" nonetheless, because if you refused, she'd fall into the hands of another guy at the club anyway. She most likely already has the soul of a whore and is already beyond saving at that point. There's nothing more futile than trying to play white knight in a place where no one else follows those rules. Being a "gentleman" and a surrogate "father figure" would've been for nothing. I'd likely be seen as an "asshole", but a man needs to eat as well. There's no telling how many more months or years I need to wait for another "meal" like this. It's not my fault that a zebra decided to waltz into a savannah full of lions, wild dogs and hyenas. There are unspoken laws in the jungle, and so does a club.
At best, such a woman should be a glorified FWB or your favorite "concubine" in virtue of her virginity being taken by you. Nothing more, unless you're willing to play Russian roulette here. Even then, keeping her around for the long term is risky, given that she is even willing to waltz into a club full of horny men as a virgin unfazed, which suggests a very hostile upbringing. Obviously, this is hyperbolic, but I always think such a woman would be the daughter of a mafia family, and that tampering with her means putting a bounty on my head. Sure, you may be able to find your "happily ever after" in this context. But the chances are so microscopic that it's just not worth the gamble, and I'd rather wait many more years until I can find a virgin in a more organic context. I still put my peace of mind before anything else.
TL;DR:
Pros:
- Technically still a virgin hymen for you
- Can feel lucky to "claim" her before others + massive ego boost
Cons:
- Massive character red flags (why is she there?)
- High risk of future chaos/betrayal
- Better as glorified FWB/concubine than full LTR
Personally, I treat FWB as a result of a failed LTR because the woman is not a virgin. It’s like recording a music album where a particular song you wrote is unfortunately not a banger, but more of a “filler song”. But you gotta include it in your tracklist anyway to end up with a sufficiently lengthy record (30 mins+ for it to be considered an album). If they're going to sleep around with random dudes while single, then they should have no problem with your proposal for an FWB arrangement if the LTR does not work out. Otherwise, you're basically wasting your time and blueballing yourself. FWB is kinda like having a bro but with pussy and tits, smells better and is more of an eye candy, albeit usually with less intellectual bantering and more frivolous bullshit on your plate. It’s where you’ll usually have to force yourself to lower your sentience levels to make such an arrangement sustainable.
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You might literally get sloppy seconds from such a relationship since she might have sex with a lot of other men in a short time. But hey, you know how the tip of our penis is mushroom-shaped? It’s basically an evolutionary semen “shovel”. You might end up fulfilling its function for once by scooping out any potential semen from other guys left in her vagina (semen displacement hypothesis). Also, the idea that women who engage in this will eventually end up settling for some random guy who falls head over heels for her is incredibly brutal. Yet it's a relief since you won't be on the receiving end of having a cumrag thrown at you.
Women's inability to understand "you can't have your cake and eat it too"
The more I think about it, the existence of sidechicks/FWB hinges mostly on the fact that most women are quite insentient and are absolute sexual degenerates. They don’t really have the capacity to critically evaluate the character of an individual man, hence they rely on evolutionary shortcuts like pre-selection. Even a guy who looks quite clapped is suddenly haloed by the fact that he has a woman by his side. Hence, having even one FWB means potentially attracting even more FWBs, and you'll basically end up having a roster of concubines. Preselection is one of those bullshit things in nature that even a sub-5 (especially if low-inhib + zero morals) could take advantage of, resulting in a snowball effect. Due to the lack of actual emotional connection, this might be the best type of sexual relationship if you want to make a profit from OnlyFans (or whatever) with the chick. My default assumption is that if she's trashy enough to agree to a FWB, she's trashy enough to start an OnlyFans.
The idea of women even agreeing to FWBs seems rather sociopathic since they set boundaries that are incredibly vague to convince themselves that what they're doing is free of consequence. If they're in a situation where they have to argue over semantics that no one can truly agree on, it's bound to be a shitfest. They say stuff like "We had rules when hooking up, and since I am now in an LTR that is exclusive, if I found out my bf was cheating on me, we would break up immediately!!" Of course, good luck getting a woman trying to understand this, but from a game theory perspective, there's more harm than good from letting a guy use you as a cumrag without commitment. If it isn't obvious enough, unless it's your daughter, don't lecture a woman about this. Otherwise, you'll dry her pussy faster than the Sahara Desert could. A woman will generally have higher chances of being emotionally attached to the guy than vice versa due to higher release of oxytocin. While for you, it's basically “spiritual necrophilia”, or in other words, making love with nothing at all. Not to mention her being imprinted by multiple dudes through microchimerism. A woman just simply does not imprint on a guy in the same way. The perks of being a man really kick in situations like this.
There’s also this kind of propaganda circulating among women that if a guy kisses them on the forehead during sex, it means that they’re “genuine” and that the kiss was meant just for them JFL. As such, I developed this twisted fetish for women's foreheads, especially those on the larger side. It might as well be called the "kiss of doom". If women are that naive and so easily swayed by a singular physical act, then they can’t really blame anyone else if they get hurt.
FWB soap opera
FWBs do sound pretty ideal if you don't want to fuck hags or depend on a miracle for a virgin girl to finally fall into your arms. However, there's also the logistical downside once you get too greedy. In particular, your FWBs start becoming jealous over you seeing other women, like a feud between the emperor's concubines in a soap opera. Although some will see this as a massive ego boost. It really depends on whether you're the type of person who can handle a lot of drama without checking out. Since FWBs rely heavily on vibes rather than calculation, it's not too sustainable since there's no knowing when the girls will check out, especially once they start wanting exclusivity and commitment from you. In which case, if you reject them, they might end up spreading rumors about you online, which may potentially nuke your entire roster. For some reason, a lot of women really struggle to understand that "you can't have your cake and eat it too". The best-case scenario of how such an arrangement could end is that you split amicably and they end up in an LTR with another dude (RIP the poor cuck dating her lmao).
TL;DR:
Pros:
- Convenient dopamine hits & sexual variety
- Preselection snowball effect possible
- Low commitment
- Women as "bros with pussy and tits" when vibes are right
- Most suitable to make profit from OnlyFans by recording sex tapes
Cons:
- Spiritually hollow / "spiritual necrophilia"
- High drama risk (jealousy, rumors, sudden exclusivity demands)
- Sloppy seconds frequent (increased STD risk)
- Women often more attached (can be annoying) → messy endings
Tier C (mid)
Affairs
One-night stands (clubbing, dating apps, slaying)Perhaps the most taboo of all sexual relationships here, yet a frighteningly common occurrence for bluepillers and blackpillers alike. What I mean by affairs in this context is not you cheating on your gf/wife (although I imagine quite a number of you get a thrill from that), but a woman in a committed LTR cheating on their bf/husband for you as a single man. Just like hagmaxxing, the main selling point of affairs is the taboo thrill. It's from knowing that she's offering herself to you for free (for doing jack shit) while her bf/husband is showering her with money and gifts to keep her entertained. For many guys, it's an ego boost that comes once in a blue moon, or never.
Fate of most betabuxxers:
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Personally, I wouldn’t go around hitting on married women/women in LTRs, so that the onus will never be on me. But if one offered themselves to me, in a world where there is no guarantee that a man will even get a taste of pussy at all, I would be lying to say that I would refuse. The only way I would even end up fucking a woman already in an LTR is if they made the first move. I'm not pursuing, but I'm not refusing either. Think about it logically. If the woman hadn't gone around offering herself to other men, these affairs wouldn't have happened in the first place. This is basically Briffault's Law in 2025, where women have all the options/power and are the ones who determine whether a man gets to associate with them in the first place. I once crudely compared being a female to being a submarine in an ocean comprised of cum. As long as the hatch of the submarine remains closed, no cum is getting in. The only reason you're even fucking a woman (consensually) is that she willed it to in the first place. She chose to open the hatch in the submarine and let the cum drown every abroad. You may have seduced her with your "rizz" and "game" yada yada, but she had the final say. The only moral boundary I would create for myself is if it's the gf/wife of someone I'm close with. Even if they made a move first, I'd rather not get blood on my hands and let her choose to fall into the hands of another guy. Otherwise, I'm poisoning the well that I also drink from.
Even then, that's not to say there are no practical risks, even if it's with a random LTR/married woman with no overlapping social circles. She could very well confess the affair, and you would later become the villain in her narrative. The bf/husband will almost certainly want to take revenge on you in some way (I would have that temptation in their position too), even if you rationalized everything and managed to put most of the blame on the woman. In the end, it's really up to you to decide whether this risk is worth taking and whether you could handle all the potential consequences. For some men (and of course women), this risk makes them feel alive for once, as fucked up as it sounds. If I had to say whether cheating is worse for a male or a female, I'd say it's worse for a female because if a child were produced, you can always know who the mother is, but you don't know who the father is. And of course, generally greater oxytocin is released in women during sex, meaning they'll feel bonded to random men who were not supposed to be in the picture in the first place.
Dark-triad story
Anyways, anecdote time. This actually happened last year or so, but I couldn't really find the opportunity to bring this up in any of my threads this year until now. For the first time, I actually wouldn't blame anyone here who thinks this is a larp. But then again, Mother Nature is the true artist. I'm just the messenger. I heard from my family friend that their father (a guy in his 60s) apparently had an affair with their wife’s sister (the guy's sister-in-law) and their mother (the guy's mother-in-law, who is probably in her 80s if not nearly 90) JFL. This happened because the guy's wife was admitted to an ICU (I think from some terminal illness), and he probably assumed that she might not have much longer to live. They kept going on about how their father is a perverted asshole. But what bothered me the most was why the two women even accepted the guy's advances in the first place and allowed everything to happen. How can one not have trust issues with women after that? People here often like to paint women as eugenicists who select for the "best genes". But this? Those women were willing to let him sexually imprint them. They basically let him piss in the well everyone's drinking from. The guy's short, obese, balding, probably suffered multiple health scares and is still getting action with such huge stakes.
It could’ve been any woman that you’re close to, your mom, sister, cousin, gf, wife, etc, being in that position. I find it incredibly unhinged because he knew his sister-in-law and mother-in-law for decades already and still sees them regularly, all whilst knowing that they all indirectly touched each other's genitals. It makes those degen frat boys bragging about their ONS slay counts look like choirboys in comparison. Being dark-triad works wonders. They make integrity seem like a game that is for the weak. Sometimes I would hear something so degenerate that I feel cucked just by hearing about it. This is one of them. He is the embodiment of the vice of gluttony, while I would probably embody envy because I actually envy his "freedom" in the darkest possible way. Guys in their teens and 20s have more to lose since they have their lives ahead of them and have this underlying urge to prove themselves. But this old guy on the other hand? He's got nothing to lose, nothing to prove, since he knows he doesn't have too much time left on this planet. He sees a woman on the other side of the room? The woman will be lucky to wake up the next morning unfucked. Your oneitis in his line of sight? Just another cocksleeve for him.
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The salt in the wound is that at a friend's and family gathering, I heard him outright talk about how he dreams of having a harem of young women in his bed. He was standing up, waving his arms expressively like he was conducting an orchestra while continuing to chug down beers. Yet people around the table (including some women) still loudly bantered with him while being fully aware of what happened. It's like they wouldn't really mind trading positions with the women involved. I mean yeah, I heard them refer to the guy as being "psychopathic" behind his back. But that still doesn't ease the wound. He was basically like the T-1000 Terminator walking out of an explosion, completely unscathed. This terrifies me more than any 6'5+ chad on the planet. While I'm "ancient" by this site's standards, I was the youngest person at the table. Hence, I felt like I was "locked out" from a game that I was still not old enough to play. Sometimes, trying to be the “bigger man” in today’s climate is like trying to make a sapling bloom into a tree in the middle of a desert. It’s extremely agonizing and miraculous to even remain sane by the time it actually grows into a tree. This moral fatigue is something that very few people talk about and is often dismissed by telling me, “it’s better in the long run!!” Even though their immorality doesn't affect me directly, just being affiliated with them is enough to bring me suffering and loneliness. I was just left awkwardly sitting there, not having the strength to comment and was shaking, trying to hold back tears like a cuck. Are the true "winners" in life the ones who care the least? The ones who can pull the trigger on anyone, and all they feel is the recoil?
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TL;DR:
Pros:
- Massive ego/taboo boost ("free" while the bf/husband betabuxxes)
- Validation that you're higher value than her provider + huge ego boost
- Feels alive/risky in a numb world
Cons:
- Very high revenge/stakes risk (violence, social destruction)
- Moral stain (especially if close social circles)
- She still chooses when/who (ultimate Briffault's Law reminder)
- Can end with you as the villain in her story
- Increased STD risk
Sugar babyThe most performative of all types of sexual relations, yet arguably the most sought after on this site. They say that life is a costume party, and that you shouldn't attend with your "real face". That cannot be truer for slaying. This is where it gets very "Kafkaesque". You are soft-hearted, taught to "respect" women and want the best for them? Good luck slaying with that mindset unless you're chad, because you'll basically be Gregor Samsa, a grotesque cockroach in the eyes of the system. Even with my giga Madonna-Whore Complex, my instincts get me to default to being a difficult asshat in such settings. I don't think I even need to say this, but for average guys, being NT is the absolute bare minimum. No exceptions. When you feel the slightest dip in self-esteem at the club, it might as well already be over for you. The way I see it, the hook-up scene is metaphorically comparable to the "circle of life", in which women basically volunteer themselves to be "prey", while men are the "predators". Whether a girl in that scene is a virgin or not doesn't matter. She's basically willingly putting herself on the chopping block and can't blame anyone else for that. A man's gotta eat after all (deposit semen in a vagina), and morals (white knighting and chivalry) would just needlessly compromise your own "survival" for little to nothing in return. It's not far-fetched at all to assume that a guy who is an outright criminal mogs a normal dude to oblivion in such an environment (and many other social situations if I'm being completely honest). Slaying is like going through a bureaucratic nightmare, but without bureaucrats, and the trial is your night out at the club.
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When you think about it, the reason men even have a chance of getting laid at all casually is thanks to women’s general insentience and lack of self-respect. Although the same could be said for the same women being able to get married at all, thanks to men’s general insentience and lack of self-respect (willingness to betabuxx). If women had the sentience and self-discipline of “philosopher kings” as Plato coined it, thugmaxxed drug dealers would be incels, but that’s not the reality.
With slaying at clubs and especially slaying on dating apps, you gradually realize that the kinkiest part of it all is not the sex itself, but the build-up, the texting and fantasizing of all the things you would like to do to the chick. But in reality, the experience rarely aligns with what you envisioned the moment you first saw them. If you're a guy with tons of obscure sexual fetishes, be prepared to end each interaction unfulfilled. The woman here still dictates whether or not you'll even be able to live out those fantasies and have all your five senses engaged. You'd be lucky to even get the raw, messy no condom sex with an LTB where she gives you all the time in the world to explore your fetishes while she lies there like a canvas. This is where you really get to see the fickleness of female morality. You'd think that she'd see spitting, hair pulling and choking as going too far. But that's generally more vanilla than salivating over her toes, just because society tells her it is. What's not "creepy" depends mostly on whether she actually likes it or not (and what society tells her). The goalposts are never fixed in one place for women. So if you have this ultra-specific fantasy of, for example, wanting a woman to bend over so her tits hang for you to use your dick to hit them around like a speed bag for 30 minutes straight, slaying is probably not the most efficient way to accomplish that. 90% of the time, you'll be seen as a perverted creep, which is quite paradoxical since they're already open to being naked with many different strangers just after a few sentences.
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On an unrelated note, it reminds me of the time when I was 5 (when I still had "nigger tier" sentience), and I effortlessly hung out with four different girls in my class (all of different ethnicities, white, black, asian, etc) during lunch recess on multiple occasions. I was even low-inhib enough to ask what color of the underwear the blonde white girl was wearing. She got me to guess and actually showed me by spreading her legs apart in front of me. I was even excited to tell my parents about it when I went home. Of course, my father told me off, and I never did it again, becoming more high-inhib afterwards. I'd be scared shitless trying to replicate this today. In retrospect, this early childhood memory of mine really did prove that sentience was a curse for reproductive success, all things equal. When you look at this from a certain perspective, I basically spent nearly two decades trying to achieve that sentience level again, from simplicity to complexity and back to simplicity again. While I did make great progress, I'm not sure if it'll ever feel as effortless as when I was 5, living as blissfully as a butterfly. Yet, if I had the sentience of a 5-year-old right now, I probably wouldn't even be able to appreciate what I'm able to acquire. I'd be able to get more nectar, but I wouldn't know how to fully savor it, remember it, and immortalize it in my psyche. There's always a trade-off. But hey maybe I'm just coping, and that even the life of a butterfly mogs mine.
TL;DR:
Pros:
- Pure dopamine chase & conquest thrill
- No long-term strings
- Exposes female fickleness (easy to exploit if NT/low-inhib/no morals)
Cons:
- Kafkaesque performance hell for average guys and below
- Rarely fulfills niche fetishes
- Low spiritual/fulfillment value
- Built on women's general lack of self-respect
- High STD risk
Even though I didn't rank sugar babies as the lowest, it's probably the least interesting one for me since there's no particular extremity about it. The pair-bonding potential is pretty mid here because while you might get long-term companionship, it's greatly hampered by the inherent transactional nature of it all. Paternity certainty/sexual jealousy is pretty moderate here, because even though money will keep her around, it doesn't create any actual desire. Thus, she's more than likely to hop on different dicks while you're fueling her lifestyle. Sexual variety/frequency is also mid as fuck. If you're lucky, she might fulfil some of your obscure fetishes, but it still doesn't compare to the certainty of paying for an escort for it, since they're still a civilian woman after all. They still have their boundaries that money sometimes cannot budge. It doesn't even have much taboo thrill compared to, let's say, hooking up with a woman more than twice your age or just fucking a rando at a club. I'd go as far as saying paying an escort just to fuck her toes for an hour, then never seeing them again, has more taboo thrill than this entire relationship setup. It's "nasty", but that's the whole point. The familiarity aspect of being with a sugar baby eventually kills the thrill. Not great, not terrible. Not that wholesome, yet not dirty enough. Yet jeets love to go on and on about this type of relationship JFL. It's just the izzat morality system doing its thing and sapping all their creativity and imagination away. *yawn*. Next.
TL;DR:
Pros:
- Long-term companionship possible
- Some sexual variety/fetish fulfillment if you pay enough
- Moderate paternity/jealousy control via money
Cons:
- Transactional -> no genuine raw desire
- Mid thrill, mid bonding, mid everything (A bit too predictable for something that's supposed to be "taboo")
- She likely still jumps on better dick
- Aims for thrill but excitement is slowly killed through familiarity
Tier D (coping hard)
Escorts
As I implied at the beginning, this thread was heavily "inspired" by some guy here saying that sex was "just a wet hole" because they lost their virginity to some escort. They came to this revelation after experiencing something that would be listed as Tier D here (coping hard tier). Sure, I'd never mythologize sex with a whore. But it's not unreasonable whatsoever to mythologize sex with a woman who actually desires you, let alone a virgin woman that you grew up alongside. Anyone who calls that "overrated" is the epitome of sour grapes. Then again, no one has control over that.
Whenever I hear "money can buy everything", escorts are one of the greatest examples of this. It can buy you the female form in all its flesh for you to experience with all your five senses. But remember, that's really about it. It can't buy you the female form in all its flesh that never got enjoyed by another man truly desiring you with all her heart. It's completely hollow metaphysically. The thing is, most people don't have access to the metaphysical (in touch with nature but not spirit), hence they mistake having sex with escorts as the full story and tell everyone else that sex is no big deal.
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Although out of all sexual relationships listed in this thread, this has the highest chance of fulfilling your sexual fetishes with an actual human female (barring extreme fetishes such as scat, gore, etc) as long as you pay up. Even on a site like this, I noticed users can be really squeamish about sniffing a girl's asshole, armpits and feet. There’s nothing inherently wrong with sexual fetishes, and I actually see having a wide range in your “repertoire” as being beneficial. That means more opportunities to maximize pleasure even from seemingly “insignificant” sexual interactions that don't require full-on intercourse. One of the biggest ironies I remember is that the asian guy who cucked me said that "foot fetish is degenerate". It's an irony because he's dark triad enough to say he's going to cum in my oneitis's mom's mouth and openly express his sexual desire to her in a way I couldn't. But somehow liking female feet is off-limits for him, and that I would be the bigger "degenerate" than him in his eyes.
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From a purely fetishistic standpoint, hiring an escort potentially has the highest ROI of all sexual relationships listed here since you can tailor the experience to your specific needs. The more precise and niche the fetish execution, the harder it is to get in a non-transactional setup. It's a harsh reality for me since I have tons of hyper-specific fetishes that will likely never be fulfilled organically. But with an escort, you could literally get them to role-play hyper-specific scenarios that you always dreamt of but couldn't get in an organic sexual relationship. Society frowns upon seeing an escort to fulfill a specific fetish, but that's exactly what makes it hot. The harder society tries to push down on me, the kinkier it is. Society's disapproval becomes the spice in an already sex-driven world. It doesn't have to involve intercourse. It could just be getting her to squish your head with her thighs and stroking your hair while you play video games or watch TV to make it seem like you're getting the "GF experience". You could even hire a bunch of escorts and have them stack on each other to form a human pyramid and hold that position for hours for the shits and giggles. Why not get them to lie naked on the bed for you to drive Lightning McQueen toy cars on their tits and curves? Maybe even plate sushi on her naked body (nyotaimori) and drink wine poured down her feet? The only limit here is your imagination. An escort refuses? Just find another one and pay them enough for them to budge. Money can solve everything right? At the end of the day, it depends on what void you're trying to fill.
Of course, I don't recommend rushing to hire an escort, and I only see it as a last resort if you're struggling to elicit any female attention past a certain age. Context is also really important when it comes to you being a virgin still. Some people say it's over if you're still a virgin at 20. But assuming you're in the LTN-MTN range, it also depends on whether you were the type to actively chase girls like a frat boy would, or someone who wanted a fulfilling LTR above all else. If you're the former, then yeah that's pretty depressing. But if you're the latter, I don't blame you for worrying that you're late either, since there's no guarantee you'll be able to find someone in college worth marrying. Maybe it's just me, but I'd only touch escorts if you are already 25+ (for reference, 24 is the oldest you'd still be considered a "youth" under the United Nations and World Health Organization) and have no worthy LTR prospects in sight. I'm still quite surprised (and actually quite impressed) that some users here are still principled enough not to lose their virginity to an escort and would rather be an oldcel virgin into their 30s and beyond.
TL;DR:
Pros:
- Highest ROI for hyper-specific fetishes
- Zero drama/mood swings/boundaries (if you pay)
- Guaranteed access to the female form
- Taboo spice from societal disapproval
Cons
- Metaphysically hollow (no genuine desire)
- Can't buy untouched purity or real emotional reciprocation
- Could stain your reputation (generally more shameful than having an affair JFL)
- High STD risk
Tier E (you're fucked)
Sex doll
Yes, I know a sex doll isn't an actual female human. But I've included it to illustrate the fact that sometimes it's better than an actual sexual relationship with a woman that you're sick of. When you contemplate buying a sex doll at all, normies are gonna gaslight you by telling you into betabuxxing landwhale whores with “b-but a sex doll doesn’t give you feedback, it doesn’t have emotions”. But maybe that's the fucking point? A sex doll is always receptive, never challenges you, doesn't have demands or mood swings, and exists solely to fulfill your vision of femininity. It doesn’t matter if you’re a “busty big boobie bitch” or a “flat is justice” type of guy; customizable sex dolls have you all covered.
The customization of sex doll has gotten pretty insane. We're talking fully articulated skeletons, multiple face swaps, realistic TPE/silicone skin with veining and texture, customizable everything: height, body type, breast size/shape, labia design, pubic hair, eye color, nail polish, and even implanted hair. You can literally build your ideal female form down to the slightest details without ever having to negotiate with an actual woman's preferences or boundaries. Inb4 "that's unrealistic body standards reeeeeee". You don't need to deal with any of that bullshit. All those options allow you to create a woman with a body that fogs every stacy in the world.
I imagine some people who buy sex dolls do so because they want a "virgin" for once. But even then, that’s not a guarantee because you could’ve customized your sex doll to the point of being so much of a baddie that even the factory workers couldn’t resist “testing” it out when no one is around. Just to let you know, China produces 70% of the world's sex dolls. In China, men aren't doing so well since their women are also just as hypergamous and delusional as Western women nowadays. One of the factory workers is bound to let off some steam, and your sex doll is the one that gets pulled aside for "extended quality inspection." Eventually, you'll end up getting pre-cucked by the entire night shift in Shenzhen just because your sex doll was that much of a baddie compared to all the other ones in the assembly line. Meanwhile, the plain Jane average-looking dolls customized by guys with little to no understanding of feminine aesthetics? They're probably the ones who get shipped out virgins. That's the ultimate price of trying to make your sex doll the most beautiful woman in existence. Money bought perfection, but perfection itself guaranteed she’d be enjoyed first by the very guys who can least afford her in real life, for free.
So is it completely over? Unironically, having money here is not cope as you could buy the factory and take over their supply chain, assuming you're at least a multimillionaire that is. But that's overkill and a complete waste of time, even by my standards. The more realistic pivot (I personally wouldn't bother JFL) is arranging an exclusive visit to the factory to oversee your custom sex doll's manufacturing process in person every step of the way. People love to say that "money talks", so I assume you could brute force your way into the factory by flashing your money to the vendors.
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But in practice, I see all of this as a last resort (a step beyond escorts) and would rather stick to real women in the meantime, even with all their flaws. With enough money, you could probably satisfy your sights (stacy), hearing (moaning sound systems), and of course, touch (dem mommy milkers or flat like a chopping board just the way you like it) through sex dolls. However, it still cannot truly satisfy your olfaction (smell) and gustation (taste) senses. Sex dolls do not emit pheromones from their smelly vagina, armpits, hair and feet like real women, and for me personally, that's what makes the experience feel complete. Taking in their raw essence is basically taking in their biological "truth". Maybe I'm in the minority (or I've found a "hack"), but sniffing a woman's unfiltered scent that isn't masked by perfume seemingly triggers the release of oxytocin in me and lowers my cortisol. Knowing that she can also be stinky makes me feel more low-inhib and relaxed around her. Even when she isn't around, sniffing anything with her scent on it is like an instant time travel to a more comforting time. Sometimes, a whiff of some feminine stink is what it takes for me to want to live another day. Even if artificial sweat glands and microbes were eventually implemented in sex dolls, it would still require me to lie to myself that the scent is from a person of XX chromosomes, born from flesh and blood.
If you are a stone-cold truecel in every measurable metric and are really dying to experience the feminine form, obviously, you shouldn't still be living in your parents' house when you're about to buy a sex doll. Although your parents might miraculously allow you to buy one while still living under the same roof as them. They might even be like "about time!". Another potential issue is that if you care about your "legacy" and aren't estranged from your family and friends, you'd better not let them find out you own a sex doll. That's probably why some people sell their sex dolls (some people are fine with sloppy seconds sex doll JFL) or dispose of them completely.
TL;DR:
Pros:
- Zero drama, mood swings, demands. Always receptive, no negotiation
- Perfect physical customization (potentially mogs every stacy on the planet)
- Better than unwanted real non-virgin LTR (dignity preserved)
- Zero STD risk (unless...)
Cons
- Lacks real feminine pheromones/smell/taste
- No feedback/emotions
- Factory pre-cuck risk (factory worker fucks your sex doll because she was too much of a baddie)
- Huge hit to your "legacy" if discovered (more of a stain to your reputation than having affairs)
- Usually the final cope (not even human)
Tier F (Just... why?)
LTR with non-virgin (the average Western woman)
I think being in an LTR with a non-virgin woman (or any woman you don't really want to be with for that matter) is one of the worst fates the average man could endure, so much so that I ranked a sex doll above this. What I mean by "LTR with a non-virgin woman" is your standard "50:50" marriage in Western countries (and a lot of globalized eastern countries too nowadays). It would probably keep me up at night having to share the same bed with a woman who lost their virginity to another man (this is one of the few instances where I wish I had “nigger” tier sentience). It’s like having a wolf in my backyard. After all, it’s another man before you who has mapped out her entire body, potentially with all five senses, like how they mapped out Pluto at the highest resolution for the first time. Perhaps he might’ve even memorized her menstrual cycle to a tee.
In your instance, you might say to yourself, "She lost her virginity at 16 to some guy she only dated for a month!! She hates him anyway!!" But that's actually worse, as it doesn't sound much better than a glorified pump n dump. She's basically now using you as a band-aid to cover up her past mistakes. Personally, I don't want to be a band-aid for a woman's past heartbreaks. The savior complex is an insidious killer that many men have (I've learnt it the hard way). Even if her “first” might not be in her life anymore, he would still remember that your gf has a mole right outside her anus. He still might wake up, look at his phone, see the date and randomly think, “Hmm, Becky would be in her luteal phase today”. Even worse is that you don’t even know if the guy was a chad or some subhuman dalit that got lucky. Personally, I don’t want to associate myself with women who are affiliated with shady people.
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She could glaze the fuck outta me, tell me that I'm her "GOAT" or I'm her "idol" and I still wouldn't be convinced that she actually loves me. Those labels would just ricochet off me. If I'm her "GOAT" and "idol", what does that make the guy who took her virginity at 16? Even if her first was 4'6 subhuman, had a micropenis and is mentally retarded, it actually makes things worse since it showed that she would let anyone inside her. Who's to say it won't happen again? Besides, if I really wanted a challenge and sought to dethrone a woman's past lovers, I would just go fuck a hag.
If you're stuck in an LTR with a non-virgin (or any woman you don't want to be with for that matter) as an average man, your dignity is pretty much always going to be on the line. There's very little you could take pride in from the marriage. You can't say that you're her first love, and you most likely wouldn't even be able to have custody of your children (if they're even your biological children in the first place) if you divorced. The only things you could do to mitigate the potential damage that comes from a divorce are to get a prenup (or postnup if signed after the wedding). That is the first thing that comes to mind when protecting your assets, inheritances, business shares, etc. Even then, it doesn't cover child custody because courts decide that, and worst of all, courts tend to favor women JFL. Not to mention it generally doesn't waive alimony, which is pretty brutal. Beyond that, one should establish trusts to shield wealth from post-marriage division, maintain separate finances, document all assets/debts and plan any timing and exit strategy (whether logistically, emotionally or spiritually). So yeah, being a man in the west is genuinely giga cucked. Hence, I see marrying a virgin as pretty much the only type of LTR with women where you're able to have the last laugh in any shape or form. While geomaxxing is quite delulu in most cases (years of sacrifice for the average man), for the sake of being able to land a virgin woman and surviving a potential divorce, it actually makes sense.
TL;DR:
Pros:
- The most socially approved type of relationship here (Think about it; waiting till marriage to lose virginity gets side-eyed by most people nowadays JFL)
- Long-term companionship if you're able to ignore her past
Cons:
- Constant mental cuckoldry by past lovers
- Dignity destruction (You're the band-aid/savior)
- Divorce rape risk (You rarely get the last laugh)
Some math
For those who don't want to read essays, I went full on autism and did some crude math. I used basic math since the tier list doesn't require anything too complex. Yet at the same time, there are so many variables to deal with that you could go on forever. A reminder that this is something that I did for fun and is a rough sketch rather than something refined and final. So don't "AcTuKually" me. Formatting was such a pain in the ass that I spent longer on that than plugging in the values.
View attachment 4478704
What I've done is developed a simplified male utility function (U = utility) over a sexual/romantic strategy as:
U = w1 (Paternity certainty / Low sexual jealousy cost)
Positive variables from strongest to weakest: Paternal certainty/sexual jealousy cost -> Pair-bond strength -> Sexual variety/frequency -> Net resource transfer
- w2 (Pair-bond strength)
- w3 (Sexual variety/frequency)
- w4 (Net resource transfer to you) - w5 (Financial cost) - w6 (STD risk) - w7 (Time / emotional labor) - w8 (Risk of violence, reputation loss, or legal consequences)
Negative variables (equally weighted): Financial cost, STD risk, time/emotional labor, risk of violence/reputation loss, legal consequences.
NOTE: I kept the negative variables equally weighted as I treat them as universal penalties rather than the main differentiators.
I then assigned weights that I reckon most men would have (adding up to 1):
Multiply each variable with a rating (0–10 scale):
- w1: 0.30 (users here seem more pragmatic than idealistic, hence paternity certainty and low jealousy weigh the most)
- w2: 0.25 (pair-bonding and long-term happiness matter a lot, but not everything)
- w3: 0.15 (important but seems to appeal to a subset of hedonistically driven men rather than those looking for a peace of mind)
- w4: 0.10 (least important since most men would rather date a girl who works at Starbucks than a female CEO)
- w5 to w8 are negative weighted values, totalling 0.20 (potential negative consequences and tradeoffs)
The formula is:
U = (0.30 × Paternity/Jealousy) + (0.25 × Pair-bond strength) + (0.15 × Variety/Frequency) + (0.10 × Net Resources) - (0.05 × Financial Cost) - (0.05 × STD Risk) - (0.05 × Time/Labor) - (0.05 × Violence/Rep Risk)
For my calculation examples below, I didn't include the mid-tier relationships since they're the most subjective. Hence, I will only showcase what I ranked the highest (LTR with virgins) with escorts (which some used to come to the conclusion that "sex is just a wet hole").
Examples:
Tier S: LTR with virgin
w1 (Paternity certainty / Low sexual jealousy cost): 10/10; Absolute metaphysical cleanliness. No mental movies, no microchimerism, no indirect bisexuality. You are the only man who has ever mapped her body and psyche.
w2 (Pair-bond strength): 10/10; Highest possible oxytocin reciprocity and truthfulness. JBF at its purest; she loves you with undiluted capacity.
w3 (Sexual variety/frequency): 4/10; Monogamous by definition, frequency depends on her but usually decent in early years.
w4 (Net resource transfer to you): 4/10; Neutral to slightly negative; traditional setup means you provide more, but emotional ROI is immense.
Costs:
w5 (Financial cost): 3/10; Normal dating/marriage expenses, no extreme betabuxxing.
w6 (STD risk): 1/10; Essentially zero.
w7 (Time & emotional labor investment): 6/10; High investment in building and maintaining the relationship.
w8 (Risk of violence, reputation damage, or legal consequences): 1/10; Standard divorce risk exists, but lowest among realistic options.
Positive variables: (0.30 × 10) + (0.25 × 10) + (0.15 × 4) + (0.10 × 4) = 6.5
Negative variables: (0.05 × 3) + (0.05 × 1) + (0.05 × 6) + (0.05 × 1) = 0.55
U = 6.5 - 0.55 = 5.95Tier D: Escorts
w1 (Paternity certainty / Low sexual jealousy cost): 5/10; Perfect "paternity" in the sense of no emotional competition. Good luck trying to impregnate her and make her yours though lmao.
w2 (Pair-bond strength): 1/10; Zero genuine bonding; purely mechanical.
w3 (Sexual variety/frequency): 8/10; Great variety and frequency if you have budget, highly dependent on your wallet.
w4 (Net resource transfer to you): 1/10; Pure resource extraction (from you to her).
Costs:
w5 (Financial cost): 9/10; Direct and high.
w6 (STD risk): 5/10; Professionals usually test regularly, but still not bulletproof. Don't count on their "professionalism".
w7 (Time & emotional labor investment): 1/10; Book, show up, leave.
w8 (Risk of violence, reputation damage, or legal consequences): 5/10; Low if discreet. Otherwise, noticeable stigma.
Positive variables: (0.30 × 5) + (0.25 × 1) + (0.15 × 8) + (0.10 × 1) = 3.05
Negative variables: (0.05 × 9) + (0.05 × 5) + (0.05 × 1) + (0.05 × 5) = 1
U = 3.05 - 1 = 2.05
My personal ranking:
Organic LTR with virgin: U = 5.95
Virgin LTR via money and status: U = 5.50
Hagmaxxing: U = 4.80
Virgin LTR from sus context: U = 4.60
Friends with benefits: U = 3.55
Affairs: U = 3.50
One-night stands: U = 2.55
Sugar baby: U = 2.30
Escorts: U = 2.05
Sex doll: U = 1.70
LTR with non-virgin: U = 0.75
Even though the weights and scores here are inherently subjective and calibrated to my preferences and observed outcomes, sensitivity tests show LTR with virgins dominate regardless. While there is the most subjectivity in the mid-tiers (which are heavily interchangeable based on personal preferences and mood), assuming paternal certainty/low sexual jealousy and pair-bond strength remain the most important variables for most reasonable men, the gulf between LTRs with virgins and escorts remains as clear as day. No reasonable person is going to rate the pair-bonding strength of escorts a 10/10 and virgins a 1/10. That's the problem with most threads here. They subconsciously put all the weight into one variable and ignore everything else.
Ending remarks
Should you ever LTR a non-virgin?
"How to cope?"This is an incredibly subjective matter, but from everything I've explained and rationalized in this thread, there's only one scenario where I could consider it. And that is hagmaxxing with the sugar mommy element ramped up to the max, which is so improbable that you might as well just wish for a genuine LTR with a virgin woman. What this entails is finding an already established older woman (in my case 20+ years older than me to keep the kinky thrill maxed out) to financially support you, and the only thing you give back to her is your zest for life and passion for art and sex. This makes me think of past music artists like John Lennon or Kurt Cobain. They also both married established older women, but then again, they themselves were also accomplished artists (just be the most iconic music artist of your generation bro!!!). In my case, I'll just need to find my Yoko Ono/Courtney Love, but 20+ years older than me, while I accomplished absolutely nothing (basically delulumaxxing). So basically, to not be a complete leech, I have to be extremely passionate about art, sex and embrace life with all its pain and misery (older patron and tormented artist couple). I'll have to somehow embody the "eat, sleep, shit, fuck and strum the guitar to shit out some songs here and there" archetype.
Sometimes this idea of relentless sex for the sake of sex for hours on end is one of the only things that can keep my existential crisis in check, so this passion comes quite naturally to me. If you think this is over the top, that's the whole point. I'm just trying to prove my point of how much it will take to convince me to settle down in an LTR with a non-virgin woman. In reality, it's a logistical nightmare since there's going to be a massive power imbalance, as the older woman would almost certainly have much more business acumen than I have. Anything that I produce, she'll almost certainly want a piece of too and make a profit out of. The whole irony here is that this "solution" is probably more elusive than the "problem" that it's trying to fix. I basically said, "I refuse to drive anything less than a lambo. But if I must absolutely settle, I'll only accept a fully functional spaceship to take me to Mars."
I haven't mentioned this story before, but I think this is a good opportunity to do so, and hopefully, you can find some parallels in your own life to this. Basically, when I was 8 or so, I almost lost my eye in an accident, and even though there was no permanent injury, it was an incident I kept repeating in my mind. It seems really easy for a person to lose an eye, yet it requires one to be incredibly unlucky, given how most people are lucky enough to avoid this. Sometimes it's not the physical hindrance but the spiritual damage it could've done. Even though I didn't lose my eye in the end, I sometimes live as if I did, adjusting my life choices around it. I sometimes even live a whole day with one eye shut to test myself. Perhaps that's a way to keep myself grounded and be content with simplicity, no matter how bad things get in life. I think it may have also subconsciously made me avoid most sports and stick to minimalistic hobbies and skills like singing, strength exercises, etc. This is almost like using pain to fight pain. It's a reminder for me that there are worse things in life than not being able to land a virgin wife. If all my luck in life was spent on my eyes being intact, then so be it. Because let's be real, even if some deity offered me a virgin wife that is guaranteed to be loyal to me, I probably wouldn't want to go blind for her.
"Learn to die before you die". And no, I don't mean searching up how to tie a noose JFL. I'm the type of person who'd rather confront my trauma head-on than pretend it never existed. This also made me think of a hypothetical scenario where I'm critically ill in a hospital bed, too much morphine would make me start seeing things so real, like a whole ass virgin waifu who isn't even really there, comforting me. I would actually hate that and would rather just endure the pain than have to go through the side effects of anaesthesia. Sometimes I'd rather just find beauty in the suffering through my own will than pretend it doesn't exist. It reminds me that even if there was a "god", they clearly don't give enough of a shit about us, and we have to learn to find beauty on our own (I suppose indulging in obscure sexual fetishes counts too JFL). Through that, we become love and "god" itself. Not in an arrogant, power-trip way, but we become the warmth we were begging the universe to give us. We become the mercy most of us were never lucky enough to get.
People often talk about wanting to die in their sleep since they won't have any time to process anything. I know it doesn't matter ultimately since it's the same destination. We have to make sense of life's impermanence. But I think the possibility of dying slowly, where you are able to think of all the regrets in your life in your last moments, is exactly why "now" is the most important moment in your life. There is no guarantee of having a "peaceful" death. Hence, you should be content with "now" with complete acknowledgement of your past (even with no virgin gf/wife in sight), because that's the only "peace" you'll ever guarantee yourself.
Originally, I actually wanted to write at least 6 more threads after this one (I treat my post count like a percentage bar, for example, 84 posts = 84%). But let's be real, could I feasibly keep writing a better thread than my previous one? "It's only 6 threads", you might say. But you might as well also be saying "you only need to fold a paper 42 times for it to reach the Moon's orbit". It'll require exponential growth from the previous one and so on. At that point, linguistic singularity might as well be reached, and black holes start appearing out of nowhere in my room. Refinement and simplicity seem like the only sane route from now onwards. Inb4 "ahaha now you have no thread ideas left stupid retard." My plan was to make the most of my time here, not spend the most time here.
You might say to me, "just post whatever is on your mind bro". The problem is my mind doesn't feel "rewarded" when I just post about current events or general knowledge, which people could just ChatGPT nowadays and mistake for anyone else's writing. There's too many izzat-driven threads out there nowadays. Also, I already fulfilled the promise I made to myself at the beginning of the year to post at least one thread each month for the entire year, so let me take an actual break for once lmao. If I do come up with a thread idea that I feel I could do justice to, I might keep on posting. But expect to wait 6 months, a year, or 5 years from now for it to drop or never. From how things look currently, treat this as my final thread. I don't believe in saying "goodbye" because that might as well be setting extremely high expectations for my life from now on. The most sensible thing to do would be to just let life happen. Who knows, I might start randomly shitposting one day. Anyway, thanks to everyone who read my threads. You kept me going longer than I expected.
Thread compilation:
2024
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EXISTENTIAL AND META COMMENTARY
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"The birth of Incelius Maximus" (69th post) This should be a water thread, but any potential replies will show you that it isn’t. It's contradictory when users will say: "w-why put in so much effort into threads it's just an incel site bro". Yet at the same time they care about being liked and...“Emotional debt” is an insidious killer that most people fail to acknowledge
NOTE: Another "megathread". This thread gets increasingly existential so it’ll be even more of a slog to read than my previous threads. As for the rest, do my bidding and post “DNR” to bump my thread k thanks. "Emotional debt" For me, it was mostly ambiguity that contributed to my suffering...The understated metaphysical impact of music (MEGATHREAD)
NOTE: Still have some "megathreads" left in the tank apparently. This'll be my most "subjective" thread yet. Feel free to share songs/artists you like, otherwise post "DNR" to bump my thread k thanks. Top 100 Spotify male musicians cucking men worldwide Call me crazy, but I think any male...
Merry belated Christmas and happy rotting. Also, good luck to the remaining competitors in the FUOTY tournament.@TiktokUser @bloomercel @LLcel @(-__-+) @greycel
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thats very mog of you, i love sloppyseconds a lot
