une question about bimaxillary advancement surgerie: How much ccw rotation do you get out of 1mm of maxilla impaction

[Deleted member 18582]

Assuming you have a perfect bite,
whats the ratio of Maxilla impaction mm to degrees of ccw

 

[longjohnmong]

arcsin(1/length of segment being rotated)

 

[Deleted member 18582]

arcsin(1/length of segment being rotated)

Length of segment being rotated as in how much the impaction is?

So 4mm impaction produces 22.5 degrees?

 

[longjohnmong]

Length of segment being rotated as in how much the impaction is?

So 4mm impaction produces 22.5 degrees?

no, like the length of the palate. so for 4mm it would be arcsin(4/palate length)

although maybe this length would be more accurate:

in which case it would be arctan(impaction amount/whatever that length is)

 

[SixCRY]

It will totaly depend on your maxilla lenght , u cant calculate like that

But what is known is for every 2degree of CCW u get 1mm advancement (pagnoni said that to me that is approx)

1mm abterior impaction or 1mm posterior downgraft is the same

 

[Deleted member 26824]

It will totaly depend on your maxilla lenght , u cant calculate like that

But what is known is for every 2degree of CCW u get 1mm advancement (pagnoni said that to me that is approx)

1mm abterior impaction or 1mm posterior downgraft is the same

arcsin(1/length of segment being rotated)

where do you find your sources? Youtube, forums, studys?

 

[longjohnmong]

where do you find your sources? Youtube, forums, studys?

i was just making shit up

 

[Deleted member 26824]

i was just making shit up

lmfao

i was actually believing this and breaking my head over how this works

 

[longjohnmong]

lmfao

i was actually believing this and breaking my head over how this works

i mean arctan of those two lengths would give you this angle:

but i don't actually know what they're cutting or removing or how they actually move the maxilla

 

[Deleted member 18582]

It will totaly depend on your maxilla lenght , u cant calculate like that

But what is known is for every 2degree of CCW u get 1mm advancement (pagnoni said that to me that is approx)

1mm abterior impaction or 1mm posterior downgraft is the same

ok if you get 4mm downgraft , its approx 8 degrees ccw, if bite remains uncahnged

 

[Deleted member 26824]

i mean arctan of those two lengths would give you this angle:

View attachment 2333203

but i don't actually know what they're cutting or removing or how they actually move the maxilla

interesting take. so how does that correlate with advancing?

 

[longjohnmong]

interesting take. so how does that correlate with advancing?

I think it depends on the starting angle of the occlusal plane. The bigger the angle the more advancement you get per degree.

Like imagine a fictional scenario where occlusal plane is completely vertical. If you rotate it 45 degree you will get huge forward advancement. If you rotate another 45 degrees to the point where occlusal plane is now horizontal, you won't get nearly as much advancement as you did with the first 45 degrees (you will get more vertical movement).

But I'd probably just go with what Pagnoni says.

 

[Deleted member 26824]

I think it depends on the starting angle of the occlusal plane. The bigger the angle the more advancement you get per degree.

Like imagine a fictional scenario where occlusal plane is completely vertical. If you rotate it 45 degree you will get huge forward advancement. If you rotate another 45 degrees to the point where occlusal plane is now horizontal, you won't get nearly as much advancement as you did with the first 45 degrees (you will get more vertical movement).

But I'd probably just go with what Pagnoni says.

i tried it and you‘re somewhat right. 45 degrees is the max before it decreases. so 45\2=22,5mm is the maximum advancement you can get through ccw, cw wise it would be much more interesting.

 

[Deleted member 26824]

I think it depends on the starting angle of the occlusal plane. The bigger the angle the more advancement you get per degree.

my vid is wrong. it does depend on starting occlusal plane. so 45/2 isnt right.

im not sure how to solve this too.

btw do you think cw on maxilla and ccw on mandible is possible?

 

[Deleted member 18582]

btw do you think cw on maxilla and ccw on mandible is possible?

What would be the aim of this?

 

[Deleted member 26824]

What would be the aim of this?

im not sure. maybe to compensate for a high angle class 2 bite with downward growth, for which maxillary ccw is not possible.

 

[Deleted member 26824]

What would be the aim of this?

im not sure. maybe to compensate for a high angle class 2 bite with downward growth, for which maxillary ccw is not possible.

but that wouldnt make sense neither now would it? so both jaws most always be rotated both either cw or ccw wise, i was just asking myself if cw and ccw would be possible

 

[Deleted member 18582]

im not sure. maybe to compensate for a high angle class 2 bite with downward growth, for which maxillary ccw is not possible.

Wouldnt doing this in any case inevitably give you a class 3 appearance?

 

[Deleted member 18582]

but that wouldnt make sense neither now would it? so both jaws most always be rotated both either cw or ccw wise, i was just asking myself if cw and ccw would be possible

Yeah to my understanding rotation refers to the entire jaw complex

 

[longjohnmong]

btw do you think cw on maxilla and ccw on mandible is possible?

Not unless you have some sort of weird open bite starting out is my guess.

 

[Deleted member 26824]

Yeah to my understanding rotation refers to the entire jaw complex

Not unless you have some sort of weird open bite starting out is my guess.

i‘ve been told there are two planes. upper and lower.

open bite is pretty much the only way this could work, you‘re right.

but why and how would rotation affect the whole jaw complex when your cutting the bone? Besides autorotation from the mandible there is nothing i can think of?

 

[longjohnmong]

but why and how would rotation affect the whole jaw complex when your cutting the bone? Besides autorotation from the mandible there is nothing i can think of?

I don't know what you're asking.

 

[Deleted member 26824]

I don't know what you're asking.

i was answering to slop slinger

 

[SixCRY]

ok if you get 4mm downgraft , its approx 8 degrees ccw, if bite remains uncahnged

No i didnt say 4mm downgraft is 8degree CCW

I said every 2 ccw rotation u get 1mm at pogonion apprpx, thats what pagnoni said to me

 

[SixCRY]

where do you find your sources? Youtube, forums, studys?

U can talk to many surgeon via email and insta, i talk to them since 2018

Got myself Bimaxes so i know alot

I read paid studies with paywall (so i get them free)

Those are not hard info to find

Also this website is full of information, nowadays people do lot of shit post but in 2019 there was high IQ threads

 

[Deleted member 26824]

U can talk to many surgeon via email and insta, i talk to them since 2018

Got myself Bimaxes so i know alot

I read paid studies with paywall (so i get them free)

Those are not hard info to find

Also this website is full of information, nowadays people do lot of shit post but in 2019 there was high IQ threads

you gotta explain the paywall method to get it for free.

hardly any usable threads on here

what surgeon you recommend talking to?

 

[SixCRY]

you gotta explain the paywall method to get it for free.

hardly any usable threads on here

what surgeon you recommend talking to?

i talked to alot, brazilian surgeon , andreishev, pagnoni, those who i consulted with, those who i emailed for consultation

Searsh a study, copy the DOI and go to scihub, it will unlock the pdf (doesnt work for every study)

Yes idk where are the old Threads, btw understanding the general of jaw surgery is not that hard

 

[Deleted member 26824]

i talked to alot, brazilian surgeon , andreishev, pagnoni, those who i consulted with, those who i emailed for consultation

Searsh a study, copy the DOI and go to scihub, it will unlock the pdf (doesnt work for every study)

Yes idk where are the old Threads, btw understanding the general of jaw surgery is not that hard

i pretty much understand the general, but my case is complex and to this day unsure about, which is why i have to use 100% of my brain capacity to figure stuff out