Upwards clavicles are better than straight

[Saint Casanova]

AI has confirmed it

For male aesthetic physique purposes (especially in the eyes of most people in fitness/modeling communities), the ranking of clavicle types from most to least aesthetic is roughly:

1. Long + moderately wide + slight upward tilt / lateral upward curve
→ The clear #1, "golden" clavicle shape for men
→ Creates the famous "3D shelf" shoulder look even with moderate delts
Gives the strongest V-taper illusion
Makes traps and upper chest look dramatically fuller
Best examples: Zyzz, most golden-era bodybuilders, many kpop idols with crazy shoulder aesthetics, David Laid in his prime

2. Very long + relatively straight / neutral angle
→ Still extremely good, sometimes even preferred in very tall men
→ Gives that classic "coat hanger" hanger look
→ Can look a bit more "elegant/long" than explosive
→ Very common among high-level aesthetic physique competitors

3. Moderately long + clearly upward tilted / hockey-stick shape
→ Very good, especially if delts are round
→ Creates strong "boulder shoulder" illusion even with average genetics
→ Many popular Instagram aesthetic guys fall here

4. Short + wide
→ Can still look good if delts and traps are enormous (think classic strongman/powerlifter aesthetic)
→ Looks blocky/boxy on most normal builds
→ Very hard to get true "V-taper model look"

5. Short + narrow
→ The most difficult starting point for aesthetic physique
→ Very hard to create any significant visual shoulder width
→ Usually needs extreme side delt and trap development just to look "normal"

Quick visual cheat sheet (male aesthetic priority):

Rank | Clavicle length | Clavicle width | Angle/Tilt | Aesthetic Score (subjective community consensus)
-----|------------------|----------------|---------------------|-------------------------------------------------
1 | Long | Medium–Wide | Mild–Moderate upward| ★★★★★
2 | Very long | Medium | Neutral–Slight up | ★★★★½–★★★★★
3 | Long | Narrow–Medium | Strong upward | ★★★★–★★★★½
4 | Medium | Wide | Any | ★★★–★★★½
5 | Short | Any | Any | ★★–★★★

Brutal summary most people in aesthetics circles would agree with:

Long clavicles forgive a lot of other average genetics.
Short clavicles punish you even if many other things are good.

It's probably the single most important skeletal factor for that "instant aesthetic" look when wearing a t-shirt or open shirt.

 

[tarkdriad33]

No pictures = dnr + ai slop

 

[hypernormie]

Clavicle shape is more about labor/fighting mechanics than anything. V-tapered clavicles can generate force quicker due to have to travel shorter distance to complete a rotation but have a lower maximum level of force projection as a result. Ideal for fast, explosive power. Straight clavicles generate less explosive force but can generate greater overall power as they have more distance to accumulate force. There's other specific mechanical advantages to each but I won't get into that here.

Both can be aesthetic as they both can signal high formidability, but in different ways. The real bad luck is downward sloping clavicles, which are not great for fighting and are just overall bad mechanically and are therefore less sexually attractive.

Neither is necessarily "better" You can have wide V-tapered clavicles so the shape doesn't really disadvantage too much, but they will give off different visual impressions. For example, v-tapered clavicles look more aggressive, but that's because they are.

 

[Saint Casanova]

No pictures = dnr + ai slop

I said it’s Ai in the first sentence and ifyou can’t visualise what upward vs straight means, it’s finished

 

[Saint Casanova]

Clavicle shape is more about labor/fighting mechanics than anything. V-tapered clavicles can generate force quicker due to have to travel shorter distance to complete a rotation but have a lower maximum level of force projection as a result. Ideal for fast, explosive power. Straight clavicles generate less explosive force but can generate greater overall power as they have more distance to accumulate force. There's other specific mechanical advantages to each but I won't get into that here.

Both can be aesthetic as they both can signal high formidability, but in different ways. The real bad luck is downward sloping clavicles, which are not great for fighting and are just overall bad mechanically and are therefore less sexually attractive.

Neither is necessarily "better" You can have wide V-tapered clavicles so the shape doesn't really disadvantage too much, but they will give off different visual impressions. For example, v-tapered clavicles look more aggressive, but that's because they are.

Downward shoulders is the worst frame trait you can have. Worse than small wrists, short clavicles, wide hips ect.

The reason being that any muscle you add on your chest and shoulders will slope downwards rather than laterally.

Horrible, horrible trait. I’ve only seen Gandy make it work somewhat but he’s not really known for his body

 

[GonorrhoeaGobbler]

I thought zyzz had straight clavs

 

[childishkillah]

Lifefuel for me

 

[King.epstein]

AI has confirmed it

For male aesthetic physique purposes (especially in the eyes of most people in fitness/modeling communities), the ranking of clavicle types from most to least aesthetic is roughly:

1. Long + moderately wide + slight upward tilt / lateral upward curve
→ The clear #1, "golden" clavicle shape for men
→ Creates the famous "3D shelf" shoulder look even with moderate delts
Gives the strongest V-taper illusion
Makes traps and upper chest look dramatically fuller
Best examples: Zyzz, most golden-era bodybuilders, many kpop idols with crazy shoulder aesthetics, David Laid in his prime

2. Very long + relatively straight / neutral angle
→ Still extremely good, sometimes even preferred in very tall men
→ Gives that classic "coat hanger" hanger look
→ Can look a bit more "elegant/long" than explosive
→ Very common among high-level aesthetic physique competitors

3. Moderately long + clearly upward tilted / hockey-stick shape
→ Very good, especially if delts are round
→ Creates strong "boulder shoulder" illusion even with average genetics
→ Many popular Instagram aesthetic guys fall here

4. Short + wide
→ Can still look good if delts and traps are enormous (think classic strongman/powerlifter aesthetic)
→ Looks blocky/boxy on most normal builds
→ Very hard to get true "V-taper model look"

5. Short + narrow
→ The most difficult starting point for aesthetic physique
→ Very hard to create any significant visual shoulder width
→ Usually needs extreme side delt and trap development just to look "normal"

Quick visual cheat sheet (male aesthetic priority):

Rank | Clavicle length | Clavicle width | Angle/Tilt | Aesthetic Score (subjective community consensus)
-----|------------------|----------------|---------------------|-------------------------------------------------
1 | Long | Medium–Wide | Mild–Moderate upward| ★★★★★
2 | Very long | Medium | Neutral–Slight up | ★★★★½–★★★★★
3 | Long | Narrow–Medium | Strong upward | ★★★★–★★★★½
4 | Medium | Wide | Any | ★★★–★★★½
5 | Short | Any | Any | ★★–★★★

Brutal summary most people in aesthetics circles would agree with:

Long clavicles forgive a lot of other average genetics.
Short clavicles punish you even if many other things are good.

It's probably the single most important skeletal factor for that "instant aesthetic" look when wearing a t-shirt or open shirt.

dnr but i have upwards and hate it

 

[Saint Casanova]

I thought zyzz had straight clavs

Yeah, they look quite straight.

A better example of long and slightly upturned is this. Probably the best physique on a model.

 

[hypernormie]

Downward shoulders is the worst frame trait you can have. Worse than small wrists, short clavicles, wide hips ect.

The reason being that any muscle you add on your chest and shoulders will slope downwards rather than laterally.

Horrible, horrible trait. I’ve only seen Gandy make it work somewhat but he’s not really known for his body

Gandy isn't really what i'm talking about through, he has V tapered clavicles, way too v tapered imo such that it becomes an aesthetci disadvantage

when i refer to downward sloping clavicles i"m referring to something like this

 

[Saint Casanova]

dnr but i have upwards and hate it

You have short clavicles then. If they were long it would mog

 

[King.epstein]

You have short clavicles then. If they were long it would mog

mine are mid-long but f theyre upwards and you dont have good shoulders its just a bad frame. straight would mog more

 

[GonorrhoeaGobbler]

All about clavs and scapula even with shit insertions and mid massl like clavicular you can still mog

 

[Saint Casanova]

Gandy isn't really what i'm talking about through, he has V tapered clavicles, way too v tapered imo such that it becomes an aesthetci disadvantage

when i refer to downward sloping clavicles i"m referring to something like this

View attachment 4544811View attachment 4544813View attachment 4544814

Yes. Gandy has this too although to a lower degree and with much more muscle. Notice how his shoulders are sloping down even in a t shirt

These people you shown basically don’t have any clavicles. What a horrible frame.

 

[hypernormie]

Yes. Gandy has this too although to a lower degree and with much more muscle. Notice how his shoulders are sloping down even in a t shirt
View attachment 4544832View attachment 4544833

These people you shown basically don’t have any clavicles. What a horrible frame.

yes but that's not a result of downward sloping clavicles, his clavicles are actually comically upwards sloping

his shoulders definitely sweep downwards as if his clavicles were downwards sloping. I wonder why that is, not a great trait to have

 

[Saint Casanova]

mine are mid-long but f theyre upwards and you dont have good shoulders its just a bad frame. straight would mog more

Maybe they are too upturned like Gandy’s. Mild upturned ones like the model above generally lead to more projected delt insertions without upper chest and overall broadness suffering.

 

[hypernormie]

Yes. Gandy has this too although to a lower degree and with much more muscle. Notice how his shoulders are sloping down even in a t shirt
View attachment 4544832View attachment 4544833

These people you shown basically don’t have any clavicles. What a horrible frame.

Maybe the inside of the clavicle is sweeping upwards aggressively and the outside is sweeping downwards aggressively

 

[Saint Casanova]

yes but that's not a result of downward sloping clavicles, his clavicles are actually comically upwards sloping

his shoulders definitely sweep downwards as if his clavicles were downwards sloping. I wonder why that is, not a great trait to have

I never really understood what causes shoulders to be downwards sloping. I never knew downwards clavicles exist. Could you show more examples ?

I think the scapula also has a major role to this. They probably have no lateral scapula size

 

[skullroot]

AI has confirmed it

For male aesthetic physique purposes (especially in the eyes of most people in fitness/modeling communities), the ranking of clavicle types from most to least aesthetic is roughly:

1. Long + moderately wide + slight upward tilt / lateral upward curve
→ The clear #1, "golden" clavicle shape for men
→ Creates the famous "3D shelf" shoulder look even with moderate delts
Gives the strongest V-taper illusion
Makes traps and upper chest look dramatically fuller
Best examples: Zyzz, most golden-era bodybuilders, many kpop idols with crazy shoulder aesthetics, David Laid in his prime

2. Very long + relatively straight / neutral angle
→ Still extremely good, sometimes even preferred in very tall men
→ Gives that classic "coat hanger" hanger look
→ Can look a bit more "elegant/long" than explosive
→ Very common among high-level aesthetic physique competitors

3. Moderately long + clearly upward tilted / hockey-stick shape
→ Very good, especially if delts are round
→ Creates strong "boulder shoulder" illusion even with average genetics
→ Many popular Instagram aesthetic guys fall here

4. Short + wide
→ Can still look good if delts and traps are enormous (think classic strongman/powerlifter aesthetic)
→ Looks blocky/boxy on most normal builds
→ Very hard to get true "V-taper model look"

5. Short + narrow
→ The most difficult starting point for aesthetic physique
→ Very hard to create any significant visual shoulder width
→ Usually needs extreme side delt and trap development just to look "normal"

Quick visual cheat sheet (male aesthetic priority):

Rank | Clavicle length | Clavicle width | Angle/Tilt | Aesthetic Score (subjective community consensus)
-----|------------------|----------------|---------------------|-------------------------------------------------
1 | Long | Medium–Wide | Mild–Moderate upward| ★★★★★
2 | Very long | Medium | Neutral–Slight up | ★★★★½–★★★★★
3 | Long | Narrow–Medium | Strong upward | ★★★★–★★★★½
4 | Medium | Wide | Any | ★★★–★★★½
5 | Short | Any | Any | ★★–★★★

Brutal summary most people in aesthetics circles would agree with:

Long clavicles forgive a lot of other average genetics.
Short clavicles punish you even if many other things are good.

It's probably the single most important skeletal factor for that "instant aesthetic" look when wearing a t-shirt or open shirt.

true

 

[Saint Casanova]

@User28823

 

[hypernormie]

I never really understood what causes shoulders to be downwards sloping. I never knew downwards clavicles exist. Could you show more examples ?

I think the scapula also has a major role to this. They probably have no lateral scapula size

I'm not familiar with all the bones and tissues in the area so I can't really say but here are two more examples

 

[Saint Casanova]

I'm not familiar with all the bones and tissues in the area so I can't really say but here are two more examples
View attachment 4544851View attachment 4544852

Yeah I understand it now. It seems that very upward clavicles make it appear similar but without the traps stretching up so badly.

Also both very upwards and depressed clavicles seem to create worse chest insertions. I.e more like a breast shape than the ideal square Chad inserts

 

[King.epstein]

Maybe they are too upturned like Gandy’s. Mild upturned ones like the model above generally lead to more projected delt insertions without upper chest and overall broadness suffering.

just looked it up, yea theyre exactly like gandys

 

[Saint Casanova]

just looked it up, yea theyre exactly like gandys

Yeah those are way too upwards. Should only be around 10 to 20 degrees above the horizontal is what I meant.