Why am I balding like a female?

[Deleted member 7173]

Little backstory. I took isotretinoin 10 months ago, and it triggered diffuse hairloss in me, which is still ongoing.

I subsequently went to a derm, and she noted the hairloss to be caused by a disease called Lichen Planopilaris, but she also noticed androgenic alopecia.

This far, the hairshedding I'm experiencing from both the LPP and androgenic alopecia is completely diffuse. My hairline has not gone back.

Given my hairline has not gone back, AND I have diagnosed androgenic alopecia- Could this mean I am losing hair in a manner a foid would? Foids lose hair diffusely, so is my Estrogen so high that I'm losing hair diffuse?

I'm high right now btw, that's why this is typed terribly

 

[Deleted member 11671]

Given my hairline has not gone back, AND I have diagnosed androgenic alopecia- Could this mean I am losing hair in a manner a foid would?

yes.

 

[wagbox]

Holy fuck

 

[ReverseNorwoodPill]

here is my take:

accutane rapes your hormonal profile in skin. especially dht.

when you quit the drug you still have upregulated receptors and now suddenly dht there. this should be temporary though and your receptors should downregulate but maybe the accutane raped your frontal cortex and your hpta axis is fucked now

but idk what further implications this would have. there is more shit involved. but basically I think your receptor levels in scalp tissue dont match your hormonal profile anymore.

 

[Deleted member 7173]

here is my take:

accutane rapes your hormonal profile in skin. especially dht.

when you quit the drug you still have upregulated receptors and now suddenly dht there. this should be temporary though and your receptors should downregulate but maybe the accutane raped your frontal cortex and your hpta axis is fucked now

but idk what further implications this would have. there is more shit involved. but basically I think your receptor levels in scalp tissue dont match your hormonal profile anymore.

Terrifying theory ngl.

My theory is that accutane is an autoimmune disease trigger, that's why so many people get arthritis-like symptoms and other inflammatory symptoms from accutane. I also got diagnosed with a hair autoimmune disease, so it makes sense

 

[ReverseNorwoodPill]

Terrifying theory ngl.

My theory is that accutane is an autoimmune disease trigger, that's why so many people get arthritis-like symptoms and other inflammatory symptoms from accutane. I also got diagnosed with a hair autoimmune disease, so it makes sense

okay then check these 2 threads out, i have posted in them myself:

NLRP3 Inflammasome Cause Of Male Pattern Baldness

So far I haven't really seen any profound regrowth stories on this forum (eg returning to dense nw1). I think Danny and Ray are correct, though I wonder if someone who has a better understanding of biochemistry than i do could possibly integrate this guys theory into our bioenergetic view...

raypeatforum.com

this guy basically saying mpb has the same root cause as athritis, gout

Oral Steroid Made My Hair Grow Back Thicker!

Hey everybody, first time poster here. Felt the need to share this in the hope that somebody will give me an explanation. There's a lot more to this story but I'll make it brief and straight to the point. For the past 7 weeks I've been taking an oral steroid called Anavar (Oxandrolone) Over...

www.hairlosstalk.com

read chemheads comments here. he is extremely knowledgeable and handles his mpb and post fin with a raw vegan diet (counters athritis).

no joke I myself have started eating raw vegan plus milk plus tea 3 days ago following this guy, and my energy levels have skyrocketed. maybe you should give it a shot, too. there is definitely some shit going on for many, especially post fin (like me) or post accutane i would imagine

 

[Deleted member 7173]

okay then check these 2 threads out, i have posted in them myself:

NLRP3 Inflammasome Cause Of Male Pattern Baldness

So far I haven't really seen any profound regrowth stories on this forum (eg returning to dense nw1). I think Danny and Ray are correct, though I wonder if someone who has a better understanding of biochemistry than i do could possibly integrate this guys theory into our bioenergetic view...

raypeatforum.com

this guy basically saying mpb has the same root cause as athritis, gout

Oral Steroid Made My Hair Grow Back Thicker!

Hey everybody, first time poster here. Felt the need to share this in the hope that somebody will give me an explanation. There's a lot more to this story but I'll make it brief and straight to the point. For the past 7 weeks I've been taking an oral steroid called Anavar (Oxandrolone) Over...

www.hairlosstalk.com

read chemheads comments here. he is extremely knowledgeable and handles his mpb and post fin with a raw vegan diet (counters athritis).

no joke I myself have started eating raw vegan plus milk plus tea 3 days ago following this guy, and my energy levels have skyrocketed. maybe you should give it a shot, too. there is definitely some shit going on for many, especially post fin (like me) or post accutane i would imagine

I am going to read it all, but I'd like to point out that a topical, as well as oral, steroid I'm on is also making my hair strands thicker, just as the guy in the thresd. Interesting. I assumed it was just fixing my lichen planopilaris

 

[ReverseNorwoodPill]

I am going to read it all, but I'd like to point out that a topical, as well as oral, steroid I'm on is also making my hair strands thicker, just as the guy in the thresd. Interesting. I assumed it was just fixing my lichen planopilaris

but you are taking a corticosteroid arent you
basically shutting your immune system down

 

[ReverseNorwoodPill]

I am going to read it all, but I'd like to point out that a topical, as well as oral, steroid I'm on is also making my hair strands thicker, just as the guy in the thresd. Interesting. I assumed it was just fixing my lichen planopilaris

your lichen and androgenic alopecia is probably one and the same thing btw.

 

[BigBoy]

There are men who lose hair only in a diffuse pattern. And women dont lose hair in a diffuse pattern they lose hair in the part in their scalp.

 

[ReverseNorwoodPill]

I am going to read it all, but I'd like to point out that a topical, as well as oral, steroid I'm on is also making my hair strands thicker, just as the guy in the thresd. Interesting. I assumed it was just fixing my lichen planopilaris

mirin hard that you called you had lichen before the diagnosis btw, insane autism level

 

[Deleted member 7173]

your lichen and androgenic alopecia is probably one and the same thing btw.

Agreed, I don't see how accutane could have triggered both LPP and androgenetic at the same time. Even though my derm said she saw heavy signs of both.

However, I'm moreso leaning that it's ALL androgenetic just based on how the hairs I shed have miniturizized the last few months.

Then again, I am losing hair from MY ENTIRE body, so that's also important information.

I'm losing roughly 200 scalp hairs a day, but the first few months I was losing up to 500 a day

 

[Deleted member 7173]

mirin hard that you called you had lichen before the diagnosis btw, insane autism level

Thanks for appreciating that, it was quite impressive on my end. So many autisic hours of research scowering forum archives and using PubMed. Then I also diagnosed 3 other accutane hairloss people that I met with Lichen, and it turns out I was right for 2 of them so far (they also got LPP diagnosed by a derm)

 

[ReverseNorwoodPill]

Thanks for appreciating that, it was quite impressive on my end. So many autisic hours of research scowering forum archives and using PubMed. Then I also diagnosed 3 other accutane hairloss people that I met with Lichen, and it turns out I was right for 2 of them so far (they also got LPP diagnosed by a derm)

talk to chemhead on hlt I think he might be able to help u. I think he still replies in the hlt thread

 

[ReverseNorwoodPill]

talk to chemhead on hlt I think he might be able to help u. I think he still replies in the hlt thread

anyways you are still growing so its kinda sus but I think a raw vegan diet of fruit, veggies and possibly milk (not fucking up your calcium phosphorus ratio) could stop it.
maybe give it a shot for 3 days. improvement should be quick if it works.

 

[Deleted member 7173]

anyways you are still growing so its kinda sus but I think a raw vegan diet of fruit, veggies and possibly milk (not fucking up your calcium phosphorus ratio) could stop it.
maybe give it a shot for 3 days. improvement should be quick if it works.

Fuck, chemhead has an autistic amount on knowledge on MPB. I relate to that, I basically know everything there is to know about LPP

 

[ReverseNorwoodPill]

Fuck, chemhead has an autistic amount on knowledge on MPB. I relate to that, I basically know everything there is to know about LPP

i couldnt believe my eyes when i found his thread ngl
mogs @Dr Shekelberg and @Seth Walsh into oblivion

 

[ReverseNorwoodPill]

Fuck, chemhead has an autistic amount on knowledge on MPB. I relate to that, I basically know everything there is to know about LPP

phd maxx on lpp then

 

[ReverseNorwoodPill]

@TurboFixer try 3 days of raw vegan before you hop on fin pls, it's my last shot in the dark before i let you take the tranny drug

hunchos on rpf saying the same thing

 

[Deleted member 7173]

phd maxx on lpp then

ChemHead is giving me plenty of new theories to work with holy shit.

He described how dosing finasteride for just one day will make his hair thicker and darker for a few weeks to where it well then thin, get frizzy, and shed. Maybe accutane is causing the same thing? Perhaps accutane is more similar to finasteride then I thought

 

[ReverseNorwoodPill]

ChemHead is giving me plenty of new theories to work with holy shit.

He described how dosing finasteride for just one day will make his hair thicker and darker for a few weeks to where it well then thin, get frizzy, and shed. Maybe accutane is causing the same thing? Perhaps accutane is more similar to finasteride then I thought

pls post your theories in the thread, so we can all have a look at it. im also in a private convo on rpf with chemhead

 

[Deleted member 4991]

The norwood reaper always collects his dues

 

[Deleted member 3990]

i couldnt believe my eyes when i found his thread ngl
mogs @Dr Shekelberg and @Seth Walsh into oblivion

Stopped reading on hairloss since like November. Btw, most of that guys opinions on mineralcorticoids could aswell be coped from @Travis and that guy has (had) a Masters in Chemistry

 

[Mayorga]

Fuck, chemhead has an autistic amount on knowledge on MPB.

He makes an autistic amount of dubious conclusions, that's for sure. It's obvious the guy has some good knowledge in inorganic chem, but some of his takes on MPB are very shaky and he uses a lot of "scientific" lingo to cover that up.

For example, from comment #8 "Cutting off that metabolic pathway (5AR) increases testosterone concentration and, subsequently, concentration of estrogens, but only for a short time due to negative hypothalamic feedback." The increase in T due to inhibited conversion to DHT after blocking 5-alpha-reductase is in the ballpark of 10% - if we take an average guy with ~800ng/dL, this would mean a rough increase of 80ng/dL. Interestingly, T levels naturally fluctuate more than that without suppressing the HPG, which effectively disproves his claim - "Observed peak-to-trough T concentration variation is estimated to be approximately 3.47 nmol/l (100 ng/dl) in young men." [1] Off to the next one.

From the same comment, a few lines further. "Cutting off 5AR results in higher serum levels of testosterone and estrogens, but LOWER levels of estrogens in the tissues where they belong." This, again, doesn't make a lot of sense - DHT is a known aromatase inhibitor, so lowering it should inevitably lead to higher estrogen concentrations, on top of that caused by the ~10% higher T. He speaks big words, not true ones. Off-topic but if there is one user at HLT that is worth following, it's pegasus2.

[1] - https://www.nature.com/articles/3901580

 

[ReverseNorwoodPill]

He makes an autistic amount of dubious conclusions, that's for sure. It's obvious the guy has some good knowledge in inorganic chem, but some of his takes on MPB are very shaky and he uses a lot of "scientific" lingo to cover that up.

For example, from comment #8 "Cutting off that metabolic pathway (5AR) increases testosterone concentration and, subsequently, concentration of estrogens, but only for a short time due to negative hypothalamic feedback." The increase in T due to inhibited conversion to DHT after blocking 5-alpha-reductase is in the ballpark of 10% - if we take an average guy with ~800ng/dL, this would mean a rough increase of 80ng/dL. Interestingly, T levels naturally fluctuate more than that without suppressing the HPG, which effectively disproves his claim - "Observed peak-to-trough T concentration variation is estimated to be approximately 3.47 nmol/l (100 ng/dl) in young men." [1] Off to the next one.

I think he was talking extreme responders like himself (or me for that matter). Lots of regrowth in days to weeks, lots of estrogenic sides (gyno, ED). 10% is an average. Hyperresponders are likely talking 100% or more
I think hyperresponders are typically running on DHT and are usually very low E and lower T, so quite masculine.
When they take fin all of this shifts towards E dominance, obviously.

From the same comment, a few lines further. "Cutting off 5AR results in higher serum levels of testosterone and estrogens, but LOWER levels of estrogens in the tissues where they belong." This, again, doesn't make a lot of sense - DHT is a known aromatase inhibitor, so lowering it should inevitably lead to higher estrogen concentrations, on top of that caused by the ~10% higher T. He speaks big words, not true ones. Off-topic but if there is one user at HLT that is worth following, it's pegasus2.

[1] - https://www.nature.com/articles/3901580

it makes sense once you realize 5AR, aromatase etc. is expressed differently in different tissues for everyone, hence why some people have hair on their shoulders for example (and can still have scalp hair or not etc.)
basically a good steroid expression in tissues is a HUGE underrated chad trait. Genetical superiority and the reason some androgenic caucasian men can keep hair

 

[ReverseNorwoodPill]

Stopped reading on hairloss since like November. Btw, most of that guys opinions on mineralcorticoids could aswell be coped from @Travis and that guy has (had) a Masters in Chemistry

keep coping, you literally shilled for roddy a year ago. are you still believing in that? lol

 

[Deleted member 3990]

keep coping, you literally shilled for roddy a year ago. are you still believing in that? lol

I stopped informing myself on hairloss because I am regrowing my hair. And you?

 

[ReverseNorwoodPill]

I stopped informing myself on hairloss because I am regrowing my hair. And you?

pics or larp.
A week ago you said your hair is thinning. Do you claim roddy approach for that?Thyroid?

anyway, best of luck (srs). if I ever regrow hair I am going to fucking document it for everyone, thats for sure

 

[Deleted member 3990]

pics or larp.
A week ago you said your hair is thinning. Do you claim roddy approach for that?Thyroid?

anyway, best of luck (srs). if I ever regrow hair I am going to fucking document it for everyone, thats for sure

I have made zero guard buzzcut pics in june and early november. I will do another one on June.
I have started taking thyroid and IGF LR3 3 days ago yeah
Good luck. You seem impatient though.

 

[Deleted member 3990]

@ReverseNorwoodPill
Your chemhead has most of his infos on mineralcorticoids from this guy:

The Cause Of Baldness

Interesting to see these theories being worked out. I'm following the best I can, though I'm not a scientist. I mention this in case my question(s) show my glaring ignorance. :facepalm: I've been using my hair topicals on my beard as well, in an attempt to stimulate growth in thinner areas. I...

raypeatforum.com

A good member, he made several posts about this mechanism. Worth to look up

 

[ReverseNorwoodPill]

@ReverseNorwoodPill
Your chemhead has most of his infos on mineralcorticoids from this guy:

The Cause Of Baldness

Interesting to see these theories being worked out. I'm following the best I can, though I'm not a scientist. I mention this in case my question(s) show my glaring ignorance. :facepalm: I've been using my hair topicals on my beard as well, in an attempt to stimulate growth in thinner areas. I...

raypeatforum.com

A good member, he made several posts about this mechanism. Worth to look up

mind mapping out your plan? i should probably get on thyroid too, i just cant get decent waking temps.

 

[ReverseNorwoodPill]

btw I don't think chemhead knows about travis. I made him make an account on rpf, I don't think he'd larp. I'll likely send him some of travis posts and see what he thinks
they also seem to disagree on the efficiacy of fin in regrowing hair

 

[Deleted member 3990]

mind mapping out your plan?

Well, just eating kinda Peaty was enough for me it seems.
Fibrosis, Calcification, Having CO2 instead of NO heavy vasodilators and good metabolic rate/glucose oxidation; these are my focus.

I think the things which helped my hair most directly (despite general diet, avoiding PUFA (which I definitely have problems with) and proper energy levels) are following:

Doxycycline

Doxycycline induces bone repair and changes in Wnt signalling

Furthermore, signalling via the classical Wnt pathway is critical for bone deposition and bone remodelling. Among other mechanisms, this signalling pathway is regulated by Dickkopf proteins (Dkks), which bind and promote the internalisation of lipoprotein receptor-related protein (LRP)5 or LRP6. Blocking these Wnt receptor components effectively downregulates Wnt signalling. Dkk has been implicated in bone formation and bone diseases. The induction of the Wnt signalling pathway promotes bone formation, whereas its inactivation by Dkk leads to osteopenic states.​

Taurine

Protective effects of taurine on human hair follicle grown in vitro - PubMed

Taurine is a naturally occurring beta-amino acid produced by methionine and cysteine metabolism. It is involved in a variety of physiological functions, including immunomodulatory and antifibrotic. Taking advantage of the ability of human hair follicle grown in vitro to recapitulate most of the...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Taurine is a naturally occurring beta-amino acid produced by methionine and cysteine metabolism. It is involved in a variety of physiological functions, including immunomodulatory and antifibrotic. Taking advantage of the ability of human hair follicle grown in vitro to recapitulate most of the characteristic features of normal hair follicle in vivo, we studied (i) taurine uptake by isolated human hair follicles; (ii) its effects on hair growth and survival rate; and (iii) its protective potential against transforming growth factor (TGF)-beta1, an inhibitor of in vitro hair growth and a master switch of fibrotic program. We showed that taurine was taken up by the connective tissue sheath, proximal outer root sheath and hair bulb, promoted hair survival in vitro and prevented TGF-beta1-induced deleterious effects on hair follicle.​

Thiamine

cba to find some references on it but I think its effect on mitchondria and CO2 may be positive for me​

​

As I said, I am taking microdose T3:T4 (1:3; 6mcg T3 like 3 times a day) and doing an IGF LR3 cycle for 4 weeks. They will most likely have a positive effect aswell.
I am still experimenting around but my focus will be to potentiate the things I am already doing/addressing. I dont need any specific hairloss drugs, I think I am fine now. Still trying around with CO2 (baking soda+ citric acid bathes or bag breathing but I havent found anything proper yet). I am happy and I will stick with it

 

[ReverseNorwoodPill]

Well, just eating kinda Peaty was enough for me it seems.
Fibrosis, Calcification, Having CO2 instead of NO heavy vasodilators and good metabolic rate/glucose oxidation; these are my focus.

I think the things which helped my hair most directly (despite general diet, avoiding PUFA (which I definitely have problems with) and proper energy levels) are following:

Doxycycline

Doxycycline induces bone repair and changes in Wnt signalling

Taurine

Protective effects of taurine on human hair follicle grown in vitro - PubMed

Taurine is a naturally occurring beta-amino acid produced by methionine and cysteine metabolism. It is involved in a variety of physiological functions, including immunomodulatory and antifibrotic. Taking advantage of the ability of human hair follicle grown in vitro to recapitulate most of the...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Thiamine

cba to find some references on it but I think its effect on mitchondria and CO2 may be positive for me​

​

As I said, I am taking microdose T3:T4 (1:3; 6mcg T3 like 3 times a day) and doing an IGF LR3 cycle for 4 weeks. They will most likely have a positive effect aswell.
I am still experimenting around but my focus will be to potentiate the things I am already doing/addressing. I dont need any specific hairloss drugs, I think I am fine now. Still trying around with CO2 (baking soda+ citric acid bathes or bag breathing but I havent found anything proper yet). I am happy and I will stick with it

happy it works for you, I did the peat/elephanto approach, too, but at best stopped norwooding

are you ACTUALLY getting regrowth? terminal hair?

be careful with baking soda and your stomach acidity. fucked myself up with it for a few weeks

 

[Deleted member 11406]

Shave your head

 

[Mayorga]

Hyperresponders are likely talking 100% or more

well, sorry, but this is just baseless.

I think hyperresponders are typically running on DHT and are usually very low E and lower T, so quite masculine.
When they take fin all of this shifts towards E dominance, obviously.

again, some conjecture based on unproven mechanistic relationships. what's more, tissue biopsies of PFS patients show nothing of interest - 5AR expression remains normal, AR and aromatase (iirc) as well

hence why some people have hair on their shoulders for example (and can still have scalp hair or not etc.)

this is reducing the process of hair growth only to the actions of steroids. fact is, we know about several more pathways that play a role (wnt comes to mind). impractical at best.

kinda off-topic again but absolute lol @ the effort and time that the raypeaters put into unravelling the cause of hair loss while all of the threads have 0 picture proof of anyone achieving anything.

 

[Deleted member 3990]

happy it works for you, I did the peat/elephanto approach, too, but at best stopped norwooding

are you ACTUALLY getting regrowth? terminal hair?

be careful with baking soda and your stomach acidity. fucked myself up with it for a few weeks

Yeah I am regrowing
Temps > Vertex > hairline
Hair is growing fast too but they are still somewhat thin. Regrowth pace is slow but I am happy that I get something ngl
I dont drink the baking soda, maybe as mouthwash. The carbonate of baking soda should form CO2 bubbles if it reacts with citric acid. I am bathing in it but I am still refining and trying.

 

[ReverseNorwoodPill]

Having CO2 instead of NO heavy vasodilators

elab

 

[Deleted member 3990]

elab

Prostaglandins like PGE2 or PGD2 synergise with Nitric Oxide.
I think the body prefers to use Nitric Oxide (e.g. iNOS) to circumvent the clogged up arteries but CO2 seems to be inherently better at providing nutrients and oxygen

 

[oatmeal]

the Norwood house always wins

 

[ReverseNorwoodPill]

Prostaglandins like PGE2 or PGD2 synergise with Nitric Oxide.
I think the body prefers to use Nitric Oxide (e.g. iNOS) to circumvent the clogged up arteries but CO2 seems to be inherently better at providing nutrients and oxygen

Giga iq

 

[Deleted member 7173]

Giga iq

I found this thread of another accutane hairloss victim, and he has the same theory I do- that accutane can trigger lichen planopilaris. Jfl.

Who had take Accutane for acne? Come here!! we also have CCCAlopecia!!

Hey my friends! guys like me who had take in the past full accutane treatment for acne, look at this, we not only have Androgenetic Alopecia, but surely also CCCA! At the last 'Norht American Hair society scientific meeting' in may 2015, 4 well known researchers presented this study ...

www.hairlosstalk.com

But I still believe androgenetic alopecia is playing a factor. I am confident that finasteride could help me but I don't want to risk the side effects

 

[ReverseNorwoodPill]

I found this thread of another accutane hairloss victim, and he has the same theory I do- that accutane can trigger lichen planopilaris. Jfl.

Who had take Accutane for acne? Come here!! we also have CCCAlopecia!!

Hey my friends! guys like me who had take in the past full accutane treatment for acne, look at this, we not only have Androgenetic Alopecia, but surely also CCCA! At the last 'Norht American Hair society scientific meeting' in may 2015, 4 well known researchers presented this study ...

www.hairlosstalk.com

But I still believe androgenetic alopecia is playing a factor. I am confident that finasteride could help me but I don't want to risk the side effects

I think if you have autoimmune issues already fin will gigarape you
But i think most of the times sides are reversable

 

[Deleted member 7173]

I think if you have autoimmune issues already fin will gigarape you
But i think most of the times sides are reversable

Yeah I was an autoimmuneCel even before taking accutane- no wonder it fucked me so hard. I'm taking so many drugs to try and stop the lichen planopilaris, which I'm hoping my hairloss is

 

[ReverseNorwoodPill]

Yeah I was an autoimmuneCel even before taking accutane- no wonder it fucked me so hard. I'm taking so many drugs to try and stop the lichen planopilaris, which I'm hoping my hairloss is

At leasg you are a hairline mogger. Hairline is everything for high E cels
Nw2= brutally over for jbs

 

[Deleted member 7173]

At leasg you are a hairline mogger. Hairline is everything for high E cels
Nw2= brutally over for jbs

That's true, but diffuse is still ultimate suifuel

 

[ReverseNorwoodPill]

That's true, but diffuse is still ultimate suifuel

You need to lose like 50% of your hair for it to have a big effect

 

[ReverseNorwoodPill]

If you lose 5% of your hair but all in hairline you can basically say goodbye to jbs

 

[Deleted member 7173]

You need to lose like 50% of your hair for it to have a big effect

I have lost 30% roughly, the past 7 months or so. I'm surprised at how long the scalp can withstand losing hundreds of hairs a day without it being death tier. Although if this continues I will be giga fucked in another half year

 

[ReverseNorwoodPill]

I have lost 30% roughly, the past 7 months or so. I'm surprised at how long the scalp can withstand losing hundreds of hairs a day without it being death tier. Although if this continues I will be giga fucked in another half year

Bro you need to stop it at all costs even if it means trying fin imo
You are not masc enough