Why Do People Like Guns So Much?

[Deleted member 5185]

Jfl guns are based af, @MaherGOAT [1]your argument about guns being outdated now and military being able to easily defeat people is giga low iq, u heard of Afghanistan and assymetrical warfare? The US just pulled out from the place with 2 trillion in debt with zero gain cause the Taliban controls half the country now, how did their superior drones fare? You have no idea how warfare works and it shows, you can bomb a place millions of times with drones, bombs and waste billions in the process, but it won't matter shit until footman come and occupy the place themselves. Civilians will build underground tunnels fast and drones won't be able to do shit, the government will extremely quickly start to go bankrupt from a the huge war of attrition and the it would collapse. The US has perfect terrain for attrition warfare, it has tons of mountain ranges bigger then Afghanistan in the west, deserts, swamps, woods. The economy will collapse, you can't fight a war for long like that


[2]Also Serbia has 40 guns per 100 people and had no school shooting in their history or gun violence, its all about culture

[1] I've never said guns were outdated. I think someone else in the thread said that. What I have said is that the military easily will defeat US civilians.

You cannot possibly compare the situation in Afghanistan vs the fever dream scenario of citizens vs US army, for a plethora of reasons:

Firstly, Afghanistan is a very, very long way away from the US. We know the US messed up in the Vietnam war - but who do you think would win if Vietnam attempted to invade the US on their own soil? Obviously, US would destroy Vietnam almost instantly. There is a huge difference between sending troops and doing drone attacks with a tiny percentage of your army in foreign lands vs. waging war on your own soil.

Secondly, the Taliban was already in control of Afghanistan when the war started, and had been for years. I have to ask, do you think US citizens want to be in a 20+ year gridlock war with RPGs in the mountainside with the US army? Have you even considered why this US vs citizens war would even happen? Surely not because of fundamentalistic Islam, right? So what belief is it that would drive civilians to wage war against the US in the first place? And remember, even then this wouldn't happen because the US would have full access to their full arsenal, not sending over a part of it across half the globe to wage war on terror.

Lets assume that the gun owning US population were willing to fight a war - would you even want that? I mean seriously, would you want a war where a huge number of the civilization dies to bombs, tank shells etc.,? What cause is it that you fear US politicians will want to go to war over? I mean, applying this "what if"-logic, where you are preparing for something completely unrealistic unknown scenario, why not actually start preparing for other things too, like for instance climate change (which actually has some scientifical merit), meteor strike etc?

Oh wait, I know why! Because this isn't about actually preparing for a real scenario, it is about wanting to own a personal hand gun.

[2] Of course! Nobody is saying that US gun regulations are the REASON why gun violence is such an issue there. Obviously its cultural - I think its even easier to get certain guns in Norway compared to the US in terms of regulations. But since the US isn't Norway, other measures needs to be taken to attack the problem. Since there isn't a issue in terms of gun regulations in Norway, we don't need to address it, while US clearly do, because it IS a problem. For instance, having gun stores on every other block where anyone can go buy guns for no reason at all - thats probably not the best way to lower the amount of guns.

Further, to your point about "guns per people":

Norway has about 31 per capita 100, so slightly less than Serbia. But what about the US? 120 guns per capita! Its not even close to the same! Gun related homicide? US: 4.46, Serbia: 0.72, Norway: 0.06 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate)

There is a pretty close correlation between murder rates and gun ownership when we compare US statistics to Serbian or Norwegian. I mean, isn't it painfully obvious? More guns = more gun related deaths.

 

[AlexAP]

America is a terrible example for gun rights. They have a 4-5 times higher murder rate than most European countries.

But there are other countries who have gun rights and they have low crime rates. Examples in Europe are Czechia(*) and Estonia. On the other hand, there are countries with gun control that have very high crime rates. The best example is Brazil.

The problem in America are the ghettos and drug gangs. They are responsible for most of the gun violence. In the last decades, gun violence in America has gone down 50% though. Things are changing.

(*) The Czech Republic is called Czechia now.

 

[AlexAP]

If the US has 300 million guns, and you could somehow reduce that number of guns to 10 million, does it make sense to say that gun violence would go down?

Not necessary. The US has about 70 million people owning guns, less than 0.1% commit crimes with guns. Two-thirds of the gun crimes are commited with illegal guns. The poeple who commit them don't care about how much legal guns are around.

In countries like Finland, Switzerland and Israel, around the same percentage of people in the country legally own guns than in the US. Still, crime rates are low there. It's not about the amount of guns, it's about the social and cultural environment.

The gun violence in the US has gone down remarkably since the 1990s, without having more gun control. Harlem was a crime-riddled ghetto, now it's becoming a place for wealhty people.

 

[Deleted member 7901]

America is a terrible example for gun rights. They have a 4-5 times higher murder rate than most European countries.

But there are other countries who have gun rights and they have low crime rates. Examples in Europe are Czechia(*) and Estonia. On the other hand, there are countries with gun control that have very high crime rates. The best example is Brazil.

The problem in America are the ghettos and drug gangs. They are responsible for most of the gun violence. In the last decades, gun violence in America has gone down 50% though. Things are changing.

(*) The Czech Republic is called Czechia now.

If you remove the blacks, you will see how the crime rate will drop by 60%

 

[Deleted member 5185]

[1]Not necessary. The US has about 70 million people owning guns, less than 0.1% commit crimes with guns. Two-thirds of the gun crimes are commited with illegal guns. The poeple who commit them don't care about how much legal guns are around.

In countries like Finland, Switzerland and Israel, around the same percentage of people in the country legally own guns than in the US. Still, crime rates are low there. It's not about the amount of guns, it's about the social and cultural environment.

[2]The gun violence in the US has gone down remarkably since the 1990s, without having more gun control. Harlem was a crime-riddled ghetto, now it's becoming a place for wealhty people.

[1] Do you have a source for that statistic? (I.e., less than 0.1% of gun owners commit "crimes with guns" and that two thirds of the gun crimes are commited with illegal guns, which would mean guns that has never been obtained legally)

[2] Nobody is saying gun crimes can't be controlled without gun control - the argument is whether or not gun rights is necessary or even positive. It should be obvious that many, many deaths that have come from guns in the US would be avoided if less people had guns. As an example: Imagine if we cut the amount of cars in the US down to half the amount. Do you think there would be less traffic accidents? The answer should be obvious.

As for the post before the one I quoted, we just went over that - most European countries have pretty lax gun laws. Whats shocking about the US is how much gun violence and overall crime they have compared to other nations of similar living standards.

 

[AlexAP]

[1] Do you have a source for that statistic? (I.e., less than 0.1% of gun owners commit "crimes with guns" and that two thirds of the gun crimes are commited with illegal guns, which would mean guns that has never been obtained legally)

Number of gun owners being around 70 million:
"About 40% of Americans say they or someone in their household owns a gun, and 22% of individuals (about 72 million people) report owning a gun, according to surveys from Pew and Harvard and Northeastern."

How Many People In The U.S. Own Guns?

One report says the U.S. has just 4% of the world’s population but owns about 40% of civilian-owned firearms globally.

wamu.org

Two-thirds of gun crimes commited with illegally owned guns: Quote from a politician:
"The vast majority of crime that is gun related is committed by people who illegally are possessing that firearm."
This factcheck ruled it mostly true:
"If you look at the most stringent standards for legal gun ownership, it’s more like 65 percent," Webster said.

Do illegal gun owners commit most gun crime?

U.S. Rep. John Faso says he opposes some gun-control measures because they target the wrong people. Laws that limit the

www.politifact.com

Total number of gun crimes per year:
Around 15.000 are murdered, around 75.000 survive gunshot injuries, that makes 90.000 incidents:

Statistics

Brady is uniting Americans against gun violence. We invite everyone who wants to end our epidemic of gun violence to take action, not sides.

www.bradyunited.org

If about 70 million people legally own guns and there 90.000 gun incidents who end in murder or injuries, that makes 0.13 incidents per gun owner. But that would be wrong, because two-thirds of the incidents are commited with illegally owned guns. Only 30.000 gun incidents who end in murder or injuries are commited with legally owned guns, which makes it 0.04 incidents per gun owner.

 

[Deleted member 7580]

What would you do if bunch of minorities break into your house

 

[Deleted member 5185]

Number of gun owners being around 70 million:
"About 40% of Americans say they or someone in their household owns a gun, and 22% of individuals (about 72 million people) report owning a gun, according to surveys from Pew and Harvard and Northeastern."

How Many People In The U.S. Own Guns?

One report says the U.S. has just 4% of the world’s population but owns about 40% of civilian-owned firearms globally.

wamu.org

[1]Two-thirds of gun crimes commited with illegally owned guns: Quote from a politician:
"The vast majority of crime that is gun related is committed by people who illegally are possessing that firearm."
This factcheck ruled it mostly true:
"If you look at the most stringent standards for legal gun ownership, it’s more like 65 percent," Webster said.

Do illegal gun owners commit most gun crime?

U.S. Rep. John Faso says he opposes some gun-control measures because they target the wrong people. Laws that limit the

www.politifact.com

Total number of gun crimes per year:
Around 15.000 are murdered, around 75.000 survive gunshot injuries, that makes 90.000 incidents:

Statistics

Brady is uniting Americans against gun violence. We invite everyone who wants to end our epidemic of gun violence to take action, not sides.

www.bradyunited.org

[2]If about 70 million people legally own guns and there 90.000 gun incidents who end in murder or injuries, that makes 0.13 incidents per gun owner. But that would be wrong, because two-thirds of the incidents are commited with illegally owned guns. Only 30.000 gun incidents who end in murder or injuries are commited with legally owned guns, which makes it 0.04 incidents per gun owner.

[1]There is an important nuance that needs to be addressed here:

Quote:

"The vast majority of crime that is gun related is committed by people who illegally are possessing that firearm."

So they are illegally possessing the firearm - that says nothing on whether or not the firearm was EVER obtained legally. I.e., many of these guns can have been stolen from someone legally possessing the firearm. In other words, the amount of illegally possessed firearms would very likely be much lower if gun laws were stricter. That makes total sense - in a country where guns are so easily accessible, there is no need for every criminal to go through criminal-only channels to obtain one.

Further, you could obtain a gun legally, then later violate whatever terms you need to uphold to possess the gun, but just never get rid of the gun - thus, illegally possess a gun you yourself legally obtained.

As such, you have 1/3rd of gun crimes being committed by completely legally owned guns, and 2/3rd of crimes committed by illegally owned but likely a high percentage of legally obtained guns.

[2] I don't doubt that gun violence in relation to gun ownership is low - If it weren't, the entire population would be dead a long time ago.

 

[Deleted member 10494]

[1] I've never said guns were outdated. I think someone else in the thread said that. What I have said is that the military easily will defeat US civilians.

You cannot possibly compare the situation in Afghanistan vs the fever dream scenario of citizens vs US army, for a plethora of reasons:

Firstly, Afghanistan is a very, very long way away from the US. We know the US messed up in the Vietnam war - but who do you think would win if Vietnam attempted to invade the US on their own soil? Obviously, US would destroy Vietnam almost instantly. There is a huge difference between sending troops and doing drone attacks with a tiny percentage of your army in foreign lands vs. waging war on your own soil.

Secondly, the Taliban was already in control of Afghanistan when the war started, and had been for years. I have to ask, do you think US citizens want to be in a 20+ year gridlock war with RPGs in the mountainside with the US army? Have you even considered why this US vs citizens war would even happen? Surely not because of fundamentalistic Islam, right? So what belief is it that would drive civilians to wage war against the US in the first place? And remember, even then this wouldn't happen because the US would have full access to their full arsenal, not sending over a part of it across half the globe to wage war on terror.

Lets assume that the gun owning US population were willing to fight a war - would you even want that? I mean seriously, would you want a war where a huge number of the civilization dies to bombs, tank shells etc.,? What cause is it that you fear US politicians will want to go to war over? I mean, applying this "what if"-logic, where you are preparing for something completely unrealistic unknown scenario, why not actually start preparing for other things too, like for instance climate change (which actually has some scientifical merit), meteor strike etc?

Oh wait, I know why! Because this isn't about actually preparing for a real scenario, it is about wanting to own a personal hand gun.

[2] Of course! Nobody is saying that US gun regulations are the REASON why gun violence is such an issue there. Obviously its cultural - I think its even easier to get certain guns in Norway compared to the US in terms of regulations. But since the US isn't Norway, other measures needs to be taken to attack the problem. Since there isn't a issue in terms of gun regulations in Norway, we don't need to address it, while US clearly do, because it IS a problem. For instance, having gun stores on every other block where anyone can go buy guns for no reason at all - thats probably not the best way to lower the amount of guns.

Further, to your point about "guns per people":

Norway has about 31 per capita 100, so slightly less than Serbia. But what about the US? 120 guns per capita! Its not even close to the same! Gun related homicide? US: 4.46, Serbia: 0.72, Norway: 0.06 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate)

There is a pretty close correlation between murder rates and gun ownership when we compare US statistics to Serbian or Norwegian. I mean, isn't it painfully obvious? More guns = more gun related deaths.

 

[Deleted member 10494]

[1]There is an important nuance that needs to be addressed here:

Quote:

"The vast majority of crime that is gun related is committed by people who illegally are possessing that firearm."

So they are illegally possessing the firearm - that says nothing on whether or not the firearm was EVER obtained legally. I.e., many of these guns can have been stolen from someone legally possessing the firearm. In other words, the amount of illegally possessed firearms would very likely be much lower if gun laws were stricter. That makes total sense - in a country where guns are so easily accessible, there is no need for every criminal to go through criminal-only channels to obtain one.

Further, you could obtain a gun legally, then later violate whatever terms you need to uphold to possess the gun, but just never get rid of the gun - thus, illegally possess a gun you yourself legally obtained.

As such, you have 1/3rd of gun crimes being committed by completely legally owned guns, and 2/3rd of crimes committed by illegally owned but likely a high percentage of legally obtained guns.

[2] I don't doubt that gun violence in relation to gun ownership is low - If it weren't, the entire population would be dead a long time ago.

vast majority of gun related crime is committed by black "people"