Why ESR is overrated, and why MFR is more important

[Futura]

ESR is often regarded as one of the most important ratios in this site, i don't think it's a completely meaningless ratio but it's overrated and the ideal ratio isn't the same on everyone

MFR is a better way to identify eye spacing

ESR is overrated at indentifying if eyes are close/wide set because the midface ratio is what actually matters
Just look at Marko Jaric vs Charlie Kirk, you would probably think Jaric has closer set eyes right?

WRONG, jaric has a 0.4 esr while kirk's ESR is 0.38 (JFL)

Another example is how barret's eyes actually look pretty wide set even tho his esr is low (0.435)

This brings me to my next point

People with high posterior facial depth usually have a lower ESR (Drago, Barret, Stepanov etc)

SInce the distance between the ear and the lateral canthus is higher, the sides of the face look longer and in a front picture the increased length is flattened, causing the eyes to look closer together, this is especially true if the person has prominent cheekbones (barret in the pic above for example)

Now compare it to chico who isn't as forward grown and has non existent zygos

This basically means the more forward grown you are the more you can afford to have a lower esr (YOU STILL NEED AN IDEAL MFR)

Obviously IPD still matters since it's what determines your MFR

TLDR
ESR is overrated, MFR is what actually makes eyes look close or far set and forward growth influences how your eye spacing is percieved

 

[Rhom]

Cool. What is MFR, how do you calculate it?

 

[Narroworbits]

what is the lowest you can go with ipd measurements

 

[Futura]

what is the lowest you can go with ipd measurements

Around 60mm probably (Depp, Ramirez)

 

[Futura]

Cool. What is MFR, how do you calculate it?

It's midface ratio

 

[Narroworbits]

Around 60mm probably (Depp, Ramirez)

don’t people like zayn malik, justin bieber, theo james have lower than this?

 

[Futura]

don’t people like zayn malik, justin bieber, theo james have lower than this?

Yes, but it failos them alot and they have tiny skulls

 

[mr007]

Around 60mm probably (Depp, Ramirez)

Are trolling or legit dumb Ramirez's ipd ind around 68mm to 70 mm something

 

[mr007]

what is the lowest you can go with ipd measurements

Anything under 62 -63 mm is subhuman trait even if you have ideal ESR becoz it means you are skullcel .

 

[Futura]

Are trolling or legit dumb Ramirez's ipd ind around 68mm to 70 mm something

 

[RapeAllFemales]

I have never taken seriously ESR is too vague as ratio also influenced by bigonial width

 

[swagstar]

ESR is often regarded as one of the most important ratios in this site, i don't think it's a completely meaningless ratio but it's overrated and the ideal ratio isn't the same on everyone

MFR is a better way to identify eye spacing

ESR is overrated at indentifying if eyes are close/wide set because the midface ratio is what actually matters
Just look at Marko Jaric vs Charlie Kirk, you would probably think Jaric has closer set eyes right?

View attachment 3173738
View attachment 3173737

WRONG, jaric has a 0.4 esr while kirk's ESR is 0.38 (JFL)

Another example is how barret's eyes actually look pretty wide set even tho his esr is low (0.435)
View attachment 3173757
This brings me to my next point

People with high posterior facial depth usually have a lower ESR (Drago, Barret, Stepanov etc)

SInce the distance between the ear and the lateral canthus is higher, the sides of the face look longer and in a front picture the increased length is flattened, causing the eyes to look closer together, this is especially true if the person has prominent cheekbones (barret in the pic above for example)

View attachment 3173788

Now compare it to chico who isn't as forward grown and has non existent zygos

View attachment 3173801

This basically means the more forward grown you are the more you can afford to have a lower esr (YOU STILL NEED AN IDEAL MFR)

Obviously IPD still matters since it's what determines your MFR

TLDR
ESR is overrated, MFR is what actually makes eyes look close or far set and forward growth influences how your eye spacing is percieved

tye on wider skulls, but on longer ones this doesnt and cant apply

 

[Futura]

tye on wider skulls, but on longer ones this doesnt and cant apply

this is what makes a skull look wide

 

[Anchor_Ship]

Everything matters

 

[swagstar]

this is what makes a skull look wide

not necessarily

 

[giga_aspie]

ESR is often regarded as one of the most important ratios in this site, i don't think it's a completely meaningless ratio but it's overrated and the ideal ratio isn't the same on everyone

MFR is a better way to identify eye spacing

ESR is overrated at indentifying if eyes are close/wide set because the midface ratio is what actually matters
Just look at Marko Jaric vs Charlie Kirk, you would probably think Jaric has closer set eyes right?

View attachment 3173738
View attachment 3173737

WRONG, jaric has a 0.4 esr while kirk's ESR is 0.38 (JFL)

Another example is how barret's eyes actually look pretty wide set even tho his esr is low (0.435)
View attachment 3173757
This brings me to my next point

People with high posterior facial depth usually have a lower ESR (Drago, Barret, Stepanov etc)

SInce the distance between the ear and the lateral canthus is higher, the sides of the face look longer and in a front picture the increased length is flattened, causing the eyes to look closer together, this is especially true if the person has prominent cheekbones (barret in the pic above for example)

View attachment 3173788

Now compare it to chico who isn't as forward grown and has non existent zygos

View attachment 3173801

This basically means the more forward grown you are the more you can afford to have a lower esr (YOU STILL NEED AN IDEAL MFR)

Obviously IPD still matters since it's what determines your MFR

TLDR
ESR is overrated, MFR is what actually makes eyes look close or far set and forward growth influences how your eye spacing is percieved

so what’s the end goal of this thread

 

[Futura]

so what’s the end goal of this thread

Stop people from considering esr a vital ratio

 

[manletmogger]

ESR is often regarded as one of the most important ratios in this site, i don't think it's a completely meaningless ratio but it's overrated and the ideal ratio isn't the same on everyone

MFR is a better way to identify eye spacing

ESR is overrated at indentifying if eyes are close/wide set because the midface ratio is what actually matters
Just look at Marko Jaric vs Charlie Kirk, you would probably think Jaric has closer set eyes right?

View attachment 3173738
View attachment 3173737

WRONG, jaric has a 0.4 esr while kirk's ESR is 0.38 (JFL)

Another example is how barret's eyes actually look pretty wide set even tho his esr is low (0.435)
View attachment 3173757
This brings me to my next point

People with high posterior facial depth usually have a lower ESR (Drago, Barret, Stepanov etc)

SInce the distance between the ear and the lateral canthus is higher, the sides of the face look longer and in a front picture the increased length is flattened, causing the eyes to look closer together, this is especially true if the person has prominent cheekbones (barret in the pic above for example)

View attachment 3173788

Now compare it to chico who isn't as forward grown and has non existent zygos

View attachment 3173801

This basically means the more forward grown you are the more you can afford to have a lower esr (YOU STILL NEED AN IDEAL MFR)

Obviously IPD still matters since it's what determines your MFR

TLDR
ESR is overrated, MFR is what actually makes eyes look close or far set and forward growth influences how your eye spacing is percieved

true my esr makes my eyes look wideset

 

[haymaker283]

Around 60mm probably (Depp, Ramirez)

You sure Ramirez has a 60mm IPD? He has a 0.45 ESR with pretty wide zygos

 

[BWC_virgin]

My ipd is wide like 68-69mm while my byzygo is about 147mm so I have .46-.47 esr however my midface is normal height of like 63mm making my midface ratio 1.1, yet somehow my philtrim Is still 17mm. I think people with wide faces have a hard time meeting “ideal” ratios. Things just don’t add up fully. If my philtrim was shorter I would have a extremely short midface. And if my nose was longer/taller maxilla with more foreward growth It would look good but my splanctocranium is already far foreward. My eyes are positioned very far foreward when compared to my neurocranum while I still have a relatively flat face. People with wide faces need very good dental arch length and positioning to look good in my opinion or it won’t match the scale of the other development.

 

[Futura]

My ipd is wide like 68-69mm while my byzygo is about 147mm so I have .46-.47 esr however my midface is normal height of like 63mm making my midface ratio 1.1, yet somehow my philtrim Is still 17mm. I think people with wide faces have a hard time meeting “ideal” ratios. Things just don’t add up fully. If my philtrim was shorter I would have a extremely short midface. And if my nose was longer/taller maxilla with more foreward growth It would look good but my splanctocranium is already far foreward. My eyes are positioned very far foreward when compared to my neurocranum while I still have a relatively flat face. People with wide faces need very good dental arch length and positioning to look good in my opinion or it won’t match the scale of the other development.

Can u send a side pic in dms

 

[Futura]

My ipd is wide like 68-69mm while my byzygo is about 147mm so I have .46-.47 esr however my midface is normal height of like 63mm making my midface ratio 1.1, yet somehow my philtrim Is still 17mm. I think people with wide faces have a hard time meeting “ideal” ratios. Things just don’t add up fully. If my philtrim was shorter I would have a extremely short midface. And if my nose was longer/taller maxilla with more foreward growth It would look good but my splanctocranium is already far foreward. My eyes are positioned very far foreward when compared to my neurocranum while I still have a relatively flat face. People with wide faces need very good dental arch length and positioning to look good in my opinion or it won’t match the scale of the other development.

Longer philtrum is better if chin is tall enough

 

[BWC_virgin]

I don’t have tall chin unfortunately

 

[Deleted member 46404]

Around 60mm probably (Depp, Ramirez)

thats my ipd

 

[Futura]

thats my ipd

Ramirez actually has around 65

 

[Deleted member 46404]

Ramirez actually has around 65

i have 60mm ipd 130mm bizygo and 0.46 esr

 

[Futura]

i have 60mm ipd 130mm bizygo and 0.46 esr

Brutal skull size

 

[Deleted member 46404]

Brutal skull size

how is it brutal?

my skull looks normal to me, maybe a little narrow

 

[Narroworbits]

how is it brutal?

my skull looks normal to me, maybe a little narrow

You’re a skullcel

 

[Deleted member 46404]

You’re a skullcel

i am indeed

 

[Futura]

i am indeed

Zeta has 60mm ipd

 

[chadlitece]

i have 60mm ipd 130mm bizygo and 0.46 esr

Does your eyes look normal or close set into like in mirror cause i have 62 mm ipd and 13 cm bizygo

 

[Deleted member 46404]

Does your eyes look normal or close set into like in mirror cause i have 62 mm ipd and 13 cm bizygo

normal

cause my esr is 0.46

wbu

 

[chadlitece]

normal

cause my esr is 0.46

wbu

Mine look very close set i dont know why

 

[Futura]

Does your eyes look normal or close set into like in mirror cause i have 62 mm ipd and 13 cm bizygo

Subhuman bizygo you're better off with 0.42 esr and wider zygos unironically

 

[Futura]

Mine look very close set i dont know why

Low raw ipd is what causes close set looking eyes

 

[notsocommonthumb]

@piec

 

[piec]

@piec

sup lil bro

 

[notsocommonthumb]

sup lil bro

read the thread

 

[piec]

read the thread

not reading that shit shit im afraid

 

[notsocommonthumb]

not reading that shit shit im afraid

basically, ipd>>esr

 

[piec]

basically, ipd>>esr

in mumbai

 

[notsocommonthumb]

in mumbai

guess who has the better esr?

 

[CD34]

ESR is often regarded as one of the most important ratios in this site, i don't think it's a completely meaningless ratio but it's overrated and the ideal ratio isn't the same on everyone

MFR is a better way to identify eye spacing

ESR is overrated at indentifying if eyes are close/wide set because the midface ratio is what actually matters
Just look at Marko Jaric vs Charlie Kirk, you would probably think Jaric has closer set eyes right?

View attachment 3173738
View attachment 3173737

WRONG, jaric has a 0.4 esr while kirk's ESR is 0.38 (JFL)

Another example is how barret's eyes actually look pretty wide set even tho his esr is low (0.435)
View attachment 3173757
This brings me to my next point

People with high posterior facial depth usually have a lower ESR (Drago, Barret, Stepanov etc)

SInce the distance between the ear and the lateral canthus is higher, the sides of the face look longer and in a front picture the increased length is flattened, causing the eyes to look closer together, this is especially true if the person has prominent cheekbones (barret in the pic above for example)

View attachment 3173788

Now compare it to chico who isn't as forward grown and has non existent zygos

View attachment 3173801

This basically means the more forward grown you are the more you can afford to have a lower esr (YOU STILL NEED AN IDEAL MFR)

Obviously IPD still matters since it's what determines your MFR

TLDR
ESR is overrated, MFR is what actually makes eyes look close or far set and forward growth influences how your eye spacing is percieved

sorry but this is bullshit, ur bizygo completely determine how ur eyes have to be place in relations with it. u can get away with a low ip or wide , as long as it matches ur bizygo , ipd alone decontestualized is worthless

 

[CD34]

u can get away with a low ip or wide ,

ofc i intend slightly, not giga comical failo such as 80 ipd or 50 ciclope reassembling

 

[piec]

View attachment 3483677
guess who has the better esr?

his eyes are literally t50's of death with terrible pfl are u retarded or what? do u think esr and ipd are the only things that matter for an eye area?

 

[notsocommonthumb]

his eyes are literally t50's of death with terrible pfl are u retarded or what? do u think esr and ipd are the only things that matters for an eye area?

language

 

[SteveRogers]

I have never taken seriously ESR is too vague as ratio also influenced by bigonial width

Not really, it isn’t a failo to have a super wide jaw (as long as the chin is super tall also) with an ideal ESR.
OPs argument is kinda water and tbh is pseudo nuance - just because you’re forward grown, doesn’t HAVE to mean you have super wide zygos.
BUT, yes, it is a trend where forward grown faces have well developed zygos as that’s just nature, it doesn’t really mean a subhuman ESR.
The reality is, if you have the look of close set eyes, it’s so fucking over, imo the biggest failo. However, just cause you have a low ESR it doesn’t mean you have the look of close set eyes; Barrett, Von Moger, Pitt etc.
The reason is the lateral canthus; it’s the key to eye area aesthetics - if you have a sharp lateral canthus and / or the lateral canthus crease which is created from great supras and / or infras OR ideal fat deposits.
Close second is nasal bridge and alar base.
No matter what, wider ESR / PERCEIVED ESR will always mog.
If you don’t have this, like I didn’t, do fat grafting, like I did.

I have a 0.48 ESR but eyes looked close set - I had 404 fat around eyes, notice that I got heaps in my supras especially lateral, infras, just below eyes on top of zygos making sure that it didn’t extend beyond 2mm of lateral canthus and importantly too, just above my medial canthus, it’s what made it more downswung, as well as inside of the nasal / lacrimal crest to further increase perceived ESR.

Before btw (20yo in the before, 24yo in the after)

FUCKING NOBODY KNOWS MORE THAN ME ABOUT LOOKSMAXXING RAHHH


Also that after photo isn’t even good compared to other stuff I have but I’m not gonna brag here (), idc what I’m rated as here. Also not really squinting,if I squint I lose a lot of my exotic colouring as you can barely see the eyes and how they contrast with skin and hair colour

I should also mention because it may help some more people: I had a HT in 2023 to achieve mogger narrow temples; I was mistaken, whilst it does help, it’s nothing compared to infra sideburns and how much better and more exotic your eyes look with hair graft placement there vs simply temples.
Also. Shave your inner eyebrows so that they roughly line up with your medial canthus, any closer set makes your eyes look further closer set.

 

[SteveRogers]

Not really, it isn’t a failo to have a super wide jaw (as long as the chin is super tall also) with an ideal ESR.
OPs argument is kinda water and tbh is pseudo nuance - just because you’re forward grown, doesn’t HAVE to mean you have super wide zygos.
BUT, yes, it is a trend where forward grown faces have well developed zygos as that’s just nature, it doesn’t really mean a subhuman ESR.
The reality is, if you have the look of close set eyes, it’s so fucking over, imo the biggest failo. However, just cause you have a low ESR it doesn’t mean you have the look of close set eyes; Barrett, Von Moger, Pitt etc.
The reason is the lateral canthus; it’s the key to eye area aesthetics - if you have a sharp lateral canthus and / or the lateral canthus crease which is created from great supras and / or infras OR ideal fat deposits.
Close second is nasal bridge and alar base.
No matter what, wider ESR / PERCEIVED ESR will always mog.
If you don’t have this, like I didn’t, do fat grafting, like I did.
View attachment 3483713
I have a 0.48 ESR but eyes looked close set - I had 404 fat around eyes, notice that I got heaps in my supras especially lateral, infras, just below eyes on top of zygos making sure that it didn’t extend beyond 2mm of lateral canthus and importantly too, just above my medial canthus, it’s what made it more downswung, as well as inside of the nasal / lacrimal crest to further increase perceived ESR.

Before btw (20yo in the before, 24yo in the after)
View attachment 3483724
FUCKING NOBODY KNOWS MORE THAN ME ABOUT LOOKSMAXXING RAHHH


Also that after photo isn’t even good compared to other stuff I have but I’m not gonna brag here (), idc what I’m rated as here. Also not really squinting,if I squint I lose a lot of my exotic colouring as you can barely see the eyes and how they contrast with skin and hair colour

I should also mention because it may help some more people: I had a HT in 2023 to achieve mogger narrow temples; I was mistaken, whilst it does help, it’s nothing compared to infra sideburns and how much better and more exotic your eyes look with hair graft placement there vs simply temples.
Also. Shave your inner eyebrows so that they roughly line up with your medial canthus, any closer set makes your eyes look further closer set.

@mightbecooked123

 

[mightbecooked123]

Not really, it isn’t a failo to have a super wide jaw (as long as the chin is super tall also) with an ideal ESR.
OPs argument is kinda water and tbh is pseudo nuance - just because you’re forward grown, doesn’t HAVE to mean you have super wide zygos.
BUT, yes, it is a trend where forward grown faces have well developed zygos as that’s just nature, it doesn’t really mean a subhuman ESR.
The reality is, if you have the look of close set eyes, it’s so fucking over, imo the biggest failo. However, just cause you have a low ESR it doesn’t mean you have the look of close set eyes; Barrett, Von Moger, Pitt etc.
The reason is the lateral canthus; it’s the key to eye area aesthetics - if you have a sharp lateral canthus and / or the lateral canthus crease which is created from great supras and / or infras OR ideal fat deposits.
Close second is nasal bridge and alar base.
No matter what, wider ESR / PERCEIVED ESR will always mog.
If you don’t have this, like I didn’t, do fat grafting, like I did.
View attachment 3483713
I have a 0.48 ESR but eyes looked close set - I had 404 fat around eyes, notice that I got heaps in my supras especially lateral, infras, just below eyes on top of zygos making sure that it didn’t extend beyond 2mm of lateral canthus and importantly too, just above my medial canthus, it’s what made it more downswung, as well as inside of the nasal / lacrimal crest to further increase perceived ESR.

Before btw (20yo in the before, 24yo in the after)
View attachment 3483724
FUCKING NOBODY KNOWS MORE THAN ME ABOUT LOOKSMAXXING RAHHH


Also that after photo isn’t even good compared to other stuff I have but I’m not gonna brag here (), idc what I’m rated as here. Also not really squinting,if I squint I lose a lot of my exotic colouring as you can barely see the eyes and how they contrast with skin and hair colour

I should also mention because it may help some more people: I had a HT in 2023 to achieve mogger narrow temples; I was mistaken, whilst it does help, it’s nothing compared to infra sideburns and how much better and more exotic your eyes look with hair graft placement there vs simply temples.
Also. Shave your inner eyebrows so that they roughly line up with your medial canthus, any closer set makes your eyes look further closer set.

Its certainly an interesting idea and yeah a more defined lateral canthus defo looks aesthetic imo gives more pfl as you said.