YOU DONT HAVE A FREE WILL PROVEN WITH A SIMPLE SCENARIO

[Mainlander]

This is a scenario I have created to explain determinism for my low iq parents who dont believe me that free will is an illusion


Imagine your brain as a complex function.
A system of inputs and thresholds not a will, but a machine that just only processes things that happen externally

Now youre on the street.
A stranger approaches fast aggressive eyes burning.
You feel a jolt of fear
You run


Did you choose to run?

No.
You were processed.


Let’s break this down

Your mind takes in stimuli visual, auditory, emotional and assigns weighted values based on past experience geneticspersonality and current state (hormones, energy level, mood).


Each stimulus becomes a numerical input into an internal threat-assessment system


Stimulus : Weight:

Opponents height: +20

Opponents muscular size: +25

Facial expression(rage): +15

Volume of voice(Shouting): +20

Past trauma memory triggered: +30

Youre tired or unarmed etc: +10



Total Threat Score: 120


Now your brain refers to predefined thresholds, hardcoded through evolution and personal conditioning:


≤ 60 Fight

≥ 60 Flee

Your score = 120 You flee

Not because you chose but because the number passed the threshold.
Your “decision” was just the system reaching a condition like in a scrypt of programming language Phyton

if threat_score >= 60:
flee()


You are not free.
You are like an if-statements and weighted sums

The Repeat Test: Proof in Simulation​

Lets say we repeat this event SOME times


Each time, the man looks slightly less dangerous:


Less height = −5
Softer voice = −10
No eye contact = −5

Soon after repeating it over and over and always subracting the nummer above , the total threat score drops: 50 as an example

there will inevitably be a precise tipping point where your response flips from “run” to “fight.”

Even if the difference from the previous moment was negligible, that minimal change is enough to alter the outcome.



Nothing you did changed.
Only the input changed and the output followed mechanically.


This is not decision making.
This is behavioral calculus.

Conclusion You Dont Choose You Compute​

Free will suggests an inner decider, a sovereign mind weighing options.
But in reality there is only


> Stimulus
> Processing
> Action

No soul deciding
Just neurons firing.


You didn't choose to run.

If the numbers had changed you would have fought.
If the memory had shifted you might have laughed.


But you didn’t decide.


You were computed.

YOUR WILL IS NOT FREE






@obscuredusk @InanimatePragmatist

 

[Mainlander]

No one will read this golden thread sadly

since the attention span of the users on this forum is non existing

I just made this shit for myself tbh

 

[ShowerCelling]

icl ts pmo sm n sb rn ngl, r u srsly srs n fr rn vro? Smh lol atp js go ... b fr vro, idek nm, brb gng gtg atm lmao, bt ts pmo 2 js lmk lol onb fr, ac nvm b wt istg ts vro keys ts pmo

 

[Mainlander]

icl ts pmo sm n sb rn ngl, r u srsly srs n fr rn vro? Smh lol atp js go ... b fr vro, idek nm, brb gng gtg atm lmao, bt ts pmo 2 js lmk lol onb fr, ac nvm b wt istg ts vro keys ts pmo

I fucking hate this Forum so much

Only low iq faggots

 

[ShowerCelling]

I fucking hate this Forum so much

Only low iq faggots

i can't lie you piss me off and this shit piss me off so much not gonna lie are you for real right now bro for real I hate this shit why are you why are you so be so for real with me right now cause laugh out loud on my soul i cant lie this shit piss me off so much and so bad right now not gonna lie, are you seriously serious and for real right now bro? laugh out loud at this point just quit i can't lie you piss me off and this shit piss me off so much not gonna lie are you for real right now be for real i hate being different i don't even know anymore man just i hate this shit why are you so bad so for real with me right now cause... laugh out loud on my soul i can't lie this shit piss me off so much and so bad right now not gonna lie, are you seriously serious and for real right now bro? lol at this point just go i can't lie you piss me off and this shit piss me off so much not gonna lie are you for real right now because for real I hate bein different i don't even know anymore man just I hate this shit why are so bad

 

[SilverStCloud]

Interesting thread. The topic of instinct is very mysterious and I personally don't think we'll ever be able to completely figure it out since it is rooted in the id/shadow/reptile brain part of our mind which transcends logic and continuity. I do personally think though that like with most great questions the answer lies somewhere in the middle not in absolutes.

 

[dongle344]

Coal thread did read tho.

 

[AspiringLTN]

To an extent. Everyone will weigh those same options. Some people are delusional enough to try to fight 4 people at once because they watched too many action movies.

 

[Vantablack]

This is a scenario I have created to explain determinism for my low iq parents who dont believe me that free will is an illusion


Imagine your brain as a complex function.
A system of inputs and thresholds not a will, but a machine that just only processes things that happen externally

Now youre on the street.
A stranger approaches fast aggressive eyes burning.
You feel a jolt of fear
You run


Did you choose to run?

No.
You were processed.


Let’s break this down

Your mind takes in stimuli visual, auditory, emotional and assigns weighted values based on past experience geneticspersonality and current state (hormones, energy level, mood).


Each stimulus becomes a numerical input into an internal threat-assessment system


Stimulus : Weight:

Opponents height: +20

Opponents muscular size: +25

Facial expression(rage): +15

Volume of voice(Shouting): +20

Past trauma memory triggered: +30

Youre tired or unarmed etc: +10



Total Threat Score: 120


Now your brain refers to predefined thresholds, hardcoded through evolution and personal conditioning:


≤ 60 Fight

≥ 60 Flee

Your score = 120 You flee

Not because you chose but because the number passed the threshold.
Your “decision” was just the system reaching a condition like in a scrypt of programming language Phyton

if threat_score >= 60:
flee()


You are not free.
You are like an if-statements and weighted sums

The Repeat Test: Proof in Simulation​

Lets say we repeat this event SOME times


Each time, the man looks slightly less dangerous:


Less height = −5
Softer voice = −10
No eye contact = −5

Soon after repeating it over and over and always subracting the nummer above , the total threat score drops: 50 as an example

there will inevitably be a precise tipping point where your response flips from “run” to “fight.”

Even if the difference from the previous moment was negligible, that minimal change is enough to alter the outcome.



Nothing you did changed.
Only the input changed and the output followed mechanically.


This is not decision making.
This is behavioral calculus.

Conclusion You Dont Choose You Compute​

Free will suggests an inner decider, a sovereign mind weighing options.
But in reality there is only


> Stimulus
> Processing
> Action

No soul deciding
Just neurons firing.


You didn't choose to run.

If the numbers had changed you would have fought.
If the memory had shifted you might have laughed.


But you didn’t decide.


You were computed.

YOUR WILL IS NOT FREE






@obscuredusk @InanimatePragmatist

agreed. Life can be predicted by causal relations going back till the beginning of spacetime itself

 

[2025cel]

Charles Manson has so much free will.

 

[gookcelriceR]

Someone had to make this thread considering how many users we have. The time has come

 

[BigJimsWornOutTires]

This is a scenario I have created to explain determinism for my low iq parents who dont believe me that free will is an illusion


Imagine your brain as a complex function.
A system of inputs and thresholds not a will, but a machine that just only processes things that happen externally

Now youre on the street.
A stranger approaches fast aggressive eyes burning.
You feel a jolt of fear
You run


Did you choose to run?

No.
You were processed.


Let’s break this down

Your mind takes in stimuli visual, auditory, emotional and assigns weighted values based on past experience geneticspersonality and current state (hormones, energy level, mood).


Each stimulus becomes a numerical input into an internal threat-assessment system


Stimulus : Weight:

Opponents height: +20

Opponents muscular size: +25

Facial expression(rage): +15

Volume of voice(Shouting): +20

Past trauma memory triggered: +30

Youre tired or unarmed etc: +10



Total Threat Score: 120


Now your brain refers to predefined thresholds, hardcoded through evolution and personal conditioning:


≤ 60 Fight

≥ 60 Flee

Your score = 120 You flee

Not because you chose but because the number passed the threshold.
Your “decision” was just the system reaching a condition like in a scrypt of programming language Phyton

if threat_score >= 60:
flee()


You are not free.
You are like an if-statements and weighted sums

The Repeat Test: Proof in Simulation​

Lets say we repeat this event SOME times


Each time, the man looks slightly less dangerous:


Less height = −5
Softer voice = −10
No eye contact = −5

Soon after repeating it over and over and always subracting the nummer above , the total threat score drops: 50 as an example

there will inevitably be a precise tipping point where your response flips from “run” to “fight.”

Even if the difference from the previous moment was negligible, that minimal change is enough to alter the outcome.



Nothing you did changed.
Only the input changed and the output followed mechanically.


This is not decision making.
This is behavioral calculus.

Conclusion You Dont Choose You Compute​

Free will suggests an inner decider, a sovereign mind weighing options.
But in reality there is only


> Stimulus
> Processing
> Action

No soul deciding
Just neurons firing.


You didn't choose to run.

If the numbers had changed you would have fought.
If the memory had shifted you might have laughed.


But you didn’t decide.


You were computed.

YOUR WILL IS NOT FREE






@obscuredusk @InanimatePragmatist

 

[obscuredusk]

Good shit, you’re kind of programmed on how you’re going to react to certain situations and stimulus

 

[gookcelriceR]

agreed. Life can be predicted by causal relations going back till the beginning of spacetime itself

 

[Mainlander]

Some people on here understand it

 

[Clqs]

That's why society shouldnt make judgments and hold people accountable for their actions

Determinism innit

 

[gookcelriceR]

Some people on here understand it

It's inevitable to love this thread if you understand it

 

[Proex]

good stuff, this question was asked a lot by the greeks and such, .org fags really are the best philosophers

 

[BigJimsWornOutTires]

I once watched this black midget (5' 2" to 5' 4") beat the living fuck out of this scrawny tall ginger. He reminded me of someone important. The black guy seemed like a hooligan. But man, the ginger begged the midget to stop beating him... in front of his short girlfriend. Brutal. I bet she later dumped him.

 

[Gonthar]

Lol, free will doesn't work that way, it's just the ability to choose what to do, you can also choose to just go on autopilot and do what your instincts tell you to do, it's not something that's active all the time.

 

[Mainlander]

That's why society shouldnt make judgments and hold people accountable for their actions

Determinism innit

Unfortunatel, this is the harsh truth that many refuse to accept


Even murderers arent truly responsible for their actions they are the product of causes beyond their control

Yet, our society still punishes them, and in that sense punishment serves a purpose:it deters many from committing such acts by creating consequences.

The will may not be free, but the systems response shapes behavior nonetheless.

With law thinks like murderes are hardly reduced since their wil gets shaped because of it

 

[Eltrē]

Free will is defined as the ability to create conscious decisions free from external constraints so using a subconscious action like the one in OP is an utter retards way of proving free will doesn't exist.

If I need to piss does it mean free will doesn't exist?
No, it's just something that happens naturally, the decision to whether piss my pants or go to the toilet is where free will can and does actually exist since you have a choice and the ability to decide on what choice you make.

If I slit your throat and you bleed out does this mean you don't have free will? Because you didn't consciously decide to bleed out?
Retarded post.

 

[Mainlander]

Lol, free will doesn't work that way, it's just the ability to choose what to do, you can also choose to just go on autopilot and do what your instincts tell you to do, it's not something that's active all the time.

Oh boy
The classic of the classic arguments

Do you want a high iq response why you are wrong

or do you not care?

 

[rawr]

I fucking hate this Forum so much

Only low iq faggots

what he said is more important bud

 

[imontheloose]

the decision to whether piss my pants or go to the toilet is where free will can and does actually exist since you have a choice and the ability to decide on what choice you make.

@wishIwasSalludon Alex O’Connor addressed this exact point very well, in my opinion. He’s a rather clever chap as far as analogies and explaining goes.

 

[Eltrē]

@wishIwasSalludon Alex O’Connor addressed this exact point very well, in my opinion. He’s a rather clever chap as far as analogies and explaining goes.

Addressed this point for or against my opinion?
Do link what he said, but why'd you tag that smooth-brained faggot?

 

[Mainlander]

Addressed this point for or against my opinion?
Do link what he said, but why'd you tag that smooth-brained faggot?

Alex o conner has closely to exact my viewpoint

 

[Mainlander]

Addressed this point for or against my opinion?
Do link what he said, but why'd you tag that smooth-brained faggot?

Maybe he can explain it better than me

 

[imontheloose]

Addressed this point for or against my opinion?
Do link what he said, but why'd you tag that smooth-brained faggot?

Against. He’s a determinist. I quite like O’Connor.

 

[Mainlander]

what he said is more important bud

Your avi says it all KYS

 

[imontheloose]

Addressed this point for or against my opinion?
Do link what he said, but why'd you tag that smooth-brained faggot?

I prefer the neuroscience argument offered by another chap he speaks about briefly. You can watch that too. Really fascinating.

 

[Proex]

I once watched this black midget (5' 2" to 5' 4") beat the living fuck out of this scrawny tall ginger. He reminded me of someone important. The black guy seemed like a hooligan. But man, the ginger begged the midget to stop beating him... in front of his short girlfriend. Brutal. I bet she later dumped him.

is the word hoolingan still used daily in england?

Lol, free will doesn't work that way, it's just the ability to choose what to do, you can also choose to just go on autopilot and do what your instincts tell you to do, it's not something that's active all the time.

didn't know you were a philosopher gontar, i m quite impresed

 

[ShowerCelling]

no free will

 

[rawr]

View attachment 3857409

Your avi says it all KYS

boiiii what did u say about nikocado avocado?

 

[Gonthar]

Oh boy
The classic of the classic arguments

Do you want a high iq response why you are wrong

or do you not care?

From your long, rambling post it doesn't seem that you actually understand what free will actually is - it's simply the ability to choose, that's it!
Your scenario of meeting a stranger with "burning eyes", can in some cases turn very different: you can choose to confront him for example.

 

[Vantablack]

Lol, free will doesn't work that way, it's just the ability to choose what to do, you can also choose to just go on autopilot and do what your instincts tell you to do, it's not something that's active all the time.

you dont get to choose what you do, that's the point. whatever "choice" you're making was already determined by several things, like your genetics, your upbringing, environment, experiences and so on. every decision you think you make consciously, has already been determined.

 

[Mainlander]

From your long, rambling post it doesn't seem that you actually understand what free will actually is - it's simply the ability to choose, that's it!
Your scenario of meeting a stranger with "burning eyes", can in some cases turn very different: you can choose to confront him for example.

I choosed this scenario because its simple to understand

But you could use it for scenarios that are happening daily

Even just the direction you are going to look on your phone in the next second is not free and predetermined

 

[Eltrē]

Alex o conner has closely to exact my viewpoint

Against. He’s a determinist. I quite like O’Connor.

I agree on some parts of what he believes in such as some things really are just determined and we are helpless but I still believe that determinism itself doesn't threaten one's free will since we are only human, not gods.

We can't control absolutely everything that determines one's actions and decisions but we can still decide from the options available to us.
Sure, past experiences, opinions, traumas and current present factors such as environment or mood can affect one's decision and in his POV 'determine' your decision effectively disproving free will, but does this mean the choice you choose between the choices that are available to the current you not a display of free will?

You aren't god where you can decide every little thing to perfectly align with your wishes and future decisions which could be seen as 'true free will', you're just an insignificant human like the rest of us fighting against the odds of what happened, what is happening and what will happen.

I'd say there is no absolute free will or complete absence of free will but rather there's a spectrum, for people who think like you of course.
Technically in your POV there is no free will since there are 'external factors' that can change what decision you choose but in another POV you still have the ability to choose between what decisions are most applicable to you in the moment.

It's like shuffling cards and having to pick between one or the other, is free will not real because you didn't get to choose what cards got picked out of the shuffle? Or do you have free will because you have the ability to choose between either picked card?

Before you nitpick my opinion and say some retards only act based off of emotions and instincts and therefore have no free will, it's like I said, I believe free will has a spectrum and some people like the retards just mentioned don't have any since they don't consciously think nor decide.

 

[Mainlander]

I agree on some parts of what he believes in such as some things really are just determined and we are helpless but I still believe that determinism itself doesn't threaten one's free will since we are only human, not gods.

We can't control absolutely everything that determines one's actions and decisions but we can still decide from the options available to us.
Sure, past experiences, opinions, traumas and current present factors such as environment or mood can affect one's decision and in his POV 'determine' your decision effectively disproving free will, but does this mean the choice you choose between the choices that are available to the current you not a display of free will?

You aren't god where you can decide every little thing to perfectly align with your wishes and future decisions which could be seen as 'true free will', you're just an insignificant human like the rest of us fighting against the odds of what happened, what is happening and what will happen.

I'd say there is no absolute free will or complete absence of free will but rather there's a spectrum, for people who think like you of course.
Technically in your POV there is no free will since there are 'external factors' that can change what decision you choose but in another POV you still have the ability to choose between what decisions are most applicable to you in the moment.

It's like shuffling cards and having to pick between one or the other, is free will not real because you didn't get to choose what cards got picked out of the shuffle? Or do you have free will because you have the ability to choose between either picked card?

Before you nitpick my opinion and say some retards only act based off of emotions and instincts and therefore have no free will, it's like I said, I believe free will has a spectrum and some people like the retards just mentione don't have any since they don't consciously think nor decide.

This philosphy is called Compatibilism

But im a hard determinist

I believe that we dont even have a single % of free will

 

[imontheloose]

I agree on some parts of what he believes in such as some things really are just determined and we are helpless but I still believe that determinism itself doesn't threaten one's free will since we are only human, not gods.

We can't control absolutely everything that determines one's actions and decisions but we can still decide from the options available to us.
Sure, past experiences, opinions, traumas and current present factors such as environment or mood can affect one's decision and in his POV 'determine' your decision effectively disproving free will, but does this mean the choice you choose between the choices that are available to the current you not a display of free will?

You aren't god where you can decide every little thing to perfectly align with your wishes and future decisions which could be seen as 'true free will', you're just an insignificant human like the rest of us fighting against the odds of what happened, what is happening and what will happen.

I'd say there is no absolute free will or complete absence of free will but rather there's a spectrum, for people who think like you of course.
Technically in your POV there is no free will since there are 'external factors' that can change what decision you choose but in another POV you still have the ability to choose between what decisions are most applicable to you in the moment.

It's like shuffling cards and having to pick between one or the other, is free will not real because you didn't get to choose what cards got picked out of the shuffle? Or do you have free will because you have the ability to choose between either picked card?

Before you nitpick my opinion and say some retards only act based off of emotions and instincts and therefore have no free will, it's like I said, I believe free will has a spectrum and some people like the retards just mentioned don't have any since they don't consciously think nor decide.

I think you’re both differing on what free will is!

 

[rape]

free will doesn't exist, it's just our mind justifying shit so we don't feel like an animal that's not in control of our urges

 

[Eltrē]

This philosphy is called Compatibilism

But im a hard determinist

I believe that we dont even have a single % of free will

But hard determinism isn't provable nor disprovable, do you feel some external force controlling everything you do?
Did something force you to create this thread?

I think you’re both differing on what free will is!

What?
Define free will.

 

[Mainlander]

But hard determinism isn't provable nor disprovable, do you feel some external force controlling everything you do?
Did something force you to create this thread?

What?
Define free will.

I wasnt forced

I wanted do

As Alex O Conner says your decision come either because you are

forced to
or
you want to

In this case i wanted it

But every decision has a cause

with that cause my "will" in that case what I "want" was shaped

 

[Gonthar]

you dont get to choose what you do, that's the point. whatever "choice" you're making was already determined by several things, like your genetics, your upbringing, environment, experiences and so on. every decision you think you make consciously, has already been determined.

Even just the direction you are going to look on your phone in the next second is not free and predetermined

Most of the time your decisions are indeed automatic, you live your life on autopilot, but when you stop to think and actually make a conscious decision that's when you free will is activated, imagine for example you are at a crossroad, you can choose to go left or right, and each choice has an equal value, what do you choose? You can just pick one direction at random or be aware and make a conscious decision - that's when you use your free will.

 

[imontheloose]

What?
Define free will.

For me, in the context of a button experiment like Milgram would do, it would be (via the scientific method) the total and utter inability to ever accurately predict which button you press. This has been demonstrated to be false AFAIK, hence free will by that definition doesn’t exist.

 

[imontheloose]

I wasnt forced

I wanted do

As Alex O Conner says your decision come either because you are

forced to
or
you want to

In this case i wanted it

But every decision has a cause

with that cause my "will" in that case what I "want" was shaped

I think Alex is essentially conflating free will with what you want.

 

[Mainlander]

Most of the time your decisions are indeed automatic, you live your life on autopilot, but when you stop to think and actually make a conscious decision that's when you free will is activated, imagine for example you are at a crossroad, you can choose to go left or right, and each choice has an equal value, what do you choose? You can just pick one direction at random or be aware and make a conscious decision - that's when you use your free will.

If both paths are truly equal in every measurable and emotional aspect, then the decision would be random like a coin flip. But a random choice isn't free will
It’s just randomness, not autonomy

But thats never the case besides on quantum physics where real randomness exist

And in reality two choices are never truly equal. Tiny unconscious differences past experiences, subtle emotions, associations tip the scale, even if you're not aware of it. Your brain evaluates these without your conscious input.


So the choice still arises from causes. Just because you're not aware of them doesn't mean they're not there.

 

[wishIwasSalludon]

@wishIwasSalludon Alex O’Connor addressed this exact point very well, in my opinion. He’s a rather clever chap as far as analogies and explaining goes.

Ngl bro it’s been a while since I’ve seen Alex’s video and I’m no longer familiar with the argument

All I remember is it being very convincing

 

[Eltrē]

I wasnt forced

I wanted do

As Alex O Conner says your decision come either because you are

forced to
or
you want to

In this case i wanted it

But every decision has a cause

with that cause my "will" in that case what I "want" was shaped

But how is wanting to do something and doing it not an act of free will?
If it's because your will making you want to post was pre-determined, how do you know that your will wasn't shaped by decisions made freely by you instead of determined decisions?

For me, in the context of a button experiment like Milgram would do, it would be (via the scientific method) the total and utter inability to ever accurately predict which button you press. This has been demonstrated to be false AFAIK, hence free will by that definition doesn’t exist.

Do elaborate, how does this experiment touch on free will if it was an experiment about obedience?

 

[neurosis]

Determinism doesn't work because you have no idea what came before and/or produced determinism (No the big bang isn't a coherent answer). You're just describing the (a) mechanism that exists within a system, not the entirety of the system itself