YOU DONT HAVE A FREE WILL PROVEN WITH A SIMPLE SCENARIO

[imontheloose]

Ngl bro it’s been a while since I’ve seen Alex’s video and I’m no longer familiar with the argument

All I remember is it being very convincing

It really was. My definition is as follows.

For me, in the context of a button experiment like Milgram would do, it would be (via the scientific method) the total and utter inability to ever accurately predict which button you press. This has been demonstrated to be false AFAIK, hence free will by that definition doesn’t exist.

Definitionally, at least from this definition, it can’t exist.

 

[wishIwasSalludon]

It really was. My definition is as follows.

Definitionally, at least from this definition, it can’t exist.

The milgram experiment was a brutal blackpill on human nature for me

I still haven’t recovered from it

 

[imontheloose]

Do elaborate, how does this experiment touch on free will if it was an experiment about obedience?

I’m not saying Milgram did the study. I was making a light-hearted comment about Milgram’s obsession for compliance and obedience psychology using buttons. He doesn’t have anything to do with it bar me mentioning buttons.

 

[imontheloose]

The milgram experiment was a brutal blackpill on human nature for me

I still haven’t recovered from it

“Uhm… yes, sir. I like Yale University’s uniform! I’ll shock him!”

“Ew, you fucking pooron. I’m not shocking him!”

 

[Eltrē]

I’m not saying Milgram did the study. I was making a light-hearted comment about Milgram’s obsession for compliance and obedience psychology using buttons. He doesn’t have anything to do with it bar me mentioning buttons.

I'm lost on what you're even talking about now.

I asked you to define free will and you mentioned the experiment and something about the inability to predict what button one will press, how does this have anything to do with free will?

 

[Gonthar]

If both paths are truly equal in every measurable and emotional aspect, then the decision would be random like a coin flip. But a random choice isn't free will
It’s just randomness, not autonomy

It's not "random" because you choose what you want and exert your free will.

And in reality two choices are never truly equal. Tiny unconscious differences past experiences, subtle emotions, associations tip the scale, even if you're not aware of it. Your brain evaluates these without your conscious input.

You can also be in situations where the choices are very unequal and still consciously use your free will to choose.

 

[Mainlander]

But how is wanting to do something and doing it not an act of free will?

Well it depends on how you define free will

Wanting = will yeah

but your wanting ≠ Free
Even for me as someone who doesnt believe in free will has this this illusion that we do have it

Its impossible for us do overcome this illusion in that way but it still doesnt mean that our wanting is free

If it's because your will making you want to post was pre-determined, how do you know that your will wasn't shaped by decisions made freely by you instead of determined decisions?

Nothing can be free since everything happens because of a cause

the cause can be externally or inside your brain.

But your brain makes a decision before your self-conscious mind releases it

If everything has a cause then you are just shaped by everything happening around you and how your brain processes these information

 

[imontheloose]

I'm lost on what you're even talking about now.

I asked you to define free will and you mentioned the experiment and something about the inability to predict what button one will press, how does this have anything to do with free will?

How about this?

For me, in the context of a random button experiment, it would be (via the scientific method) the total and utter inability to ever accurately predict which button you press. This has been demonstrated to be false AFAIK, hence free will by that definition doesn’t exist.

 

[neurosis]

There can only be absolute free will.

 

[Mainlander]

It's not "random" because you choose what you want and exert your free will.

You can also be in situations where the choices are very unequal and still consciously use your free will to choose.

The fact that you feel like you're making a conscious choice doesn’t prove it’s free


Your brain weighs outcomes, emotions, past experiences and instincts all shaped by factors you didnt choose: your gene, your upbringing, your environment

The stronger option feels stronger for a reason, not by your own design


Even if two options had truly equal external value a perfect 50/50 your decision would still not be free


Your brain isnt a blank slate

It's built from genetics, shaped by memory, wired through experience

The smallest internal bias a past association a subtle emotion even a random neural fluctuation tips the scale


The decision feels free, but it’s just the output of a system you didn’t design

 

[wishIwasSalludon]

It really was. My definition is as follows.

I guess the way I think of free will is like this

Imagine two worlds

One where you eat a bowl of cereal for breakfast and another where you don’t

What determines which world you find yourself in?

The cause can either be random, or determined

In both cases neither are in ur control.

It’s not a very robust argument, I sorta just made it up right now but I hope it gets the point across.

 

[diditeverbegin]

This is a scenario I have created to explain determinism for my low iq parents who dont believe me that free will is an illusion


Imagine your brain as a complex function.
A system of inputs and thresholds not a will, but a machine that just only processes things that happen externally

Now youre on the street.
A stranger approaches fast aggressive eyes burning.
You feel a jolt of fear
You run


Did you choose to run?

No.
You were processed.


Let’s break this down

Your mind takes in stimuli visual, auditory, emotional and assigns weighted values based on past experience geneticspersonality and current state (hormones, energy level, mood).


Each stimulus becomes a numerical input into an internal threat-assessment system


Stimulus : Weight:

Opponents height: +20

Opponents muscular size: +25

Facial expression(rage): +15

Volume of voice(Shouting): +20

Past trauma memory triggered: +30

Youre tired or unarmed etc: +10



Total Threat Score: 120


Now your brain refers to predefined thresholds, hardcoded through evolution and personal conditioning:


≤ 60 Fight

≥ 60 Flee

Your score = 120 You flee

Not because you chose but because the number passed the threshold.
Your “decision” was just the system reaching a condition like in a scrypt of programming language Phyton

if threat_score >= 60:
flee()


You are not free.
You are like an if-statements and weighted sums

The Repeat Test: Proof in Simulation​

Lets say we repeat this event SOME times


Each time, the man looks slightly less dangerous:


Less height = −5
Softer voice = −10
No eye contact = −5

Soon after repeating it over and over and always subracting the nummer above , the total threat score drops: 50 as an example

there will inevitably be a precise tipping point where your response flips from “run” to “fight.”

Even if the difference from the previous moment was negligible, that minimal change is enough to alter the outcome.



Nothing you did changed.
Only the input changed and the output followed mechanically.


This is not decision making.
This is behavioral calculus.

Conclusion You Dont Choose You Compute​

Free will suggests an inner decider, a sovereign mind weighing options.
But in reality there is only


> Stimulus
> Processing
> Action

No soul deciding
Just neurons firing.


You didn't choose to run.

If the numbers had changed you would have fought.
If the memory had shifted you might have laughed.


But you didn’t decide.


You were computed.

YOUR WILL IS NOT FREE






@obscuredusk @InanimatePragmatist

every person I've seen who very is into philosophy and science (mostly the field physics I think) doesn't believe in libertarian free will
I don't know much so I probably couldn't defend my stance well but because of those people/videos, I believe in hard determinism now. Or I guess I discovered it, and I was always going to believe it

 

[imontheloose]

I guess the way I think of free will is like this

Imagine two worlds

One where you eat a bowl of cereal for breakfast and another where you don’t

What determines which world you find yourself in?

The cause can either be random, or determined

In both cases neither are in ur control.

It’s not a very robust argument, I sorta just made it up right now but I hope it gets the point across.

I understand the logic behind it.

 

[Mainlander]

every person I've seen who very is into philosophy and science (mostly the field physics I think) doesn't believe in libertarian free will
I don't know much so I probably couldn't defend my stance well but because of those people/videos, I believe in hard determinism now. Or I guess I discovered it, and I was always going to believe it

its predetermined innit

 

[Eltrē]

How about this?

Real funny.

Well it depends on how you define free will

Wanting = will yeah

but your wanting ≠ Free
Even for me as someone who doesnt believe in free will has this this illusion that we do have it

Its impossible for us do overcome this illusion in that way but it still doesnt mean that our wanting is free

And how can you prove that this is an illusion?
Determinism is completely speculative since you have no way to prove it nor disprove it.
We can't go back in time and instead of walking in the park I'd jog and see how the rest of my day changes, it simply isn't possible.

If you truly believe that you making a decision wasn't even your choice and was instead already pre-determined then there's nothing to say here since you can't prove it nor can I disprove it.
But realistically, all we can do is see what we feel, and what we do feel is free will so how is that not real?

If I get stabbed I could say it's an illusion but it feels real to me so do I accept the fact that I was stabbed or go on with my day assuming it as an illusion?

Nothing can be free since everything happens because of a cause

the cause can be externally or inside your brain.

But your brain makes a decision before your self-conscious mind releases it

I'm guessing your referring to that one study that was supposed to disprove free will?
It was proven to be a sham.

If everything has a cause then you are just shaped by everything happening around you and how your brain processes these information

And how does this threaten your free will?
Free will is literally defined as the ability to choose and decide without external constraints, not to be an omniscient sovereign all-controlling god.

 

[imontheloose]

every person I've seen who very is into philosophy and science (mostly the field physics I think) doesn't believe in libertarian free will
I don't know much so I probably couldn't defend my stance well but because of those people/videos, I believe in hard determinism now. Or I guess I discovered it, and I was always going to believe it

EXACTLY! It’s libertarian free will we are discussing. That’s what some people here aren’t getting. It isn’t that you don’t have will. It’s just that it isn’t free!

 

[eyemax]

Does it really even matter if we all feel as if we have free will?

 

[Mainlander]

But realistically, all we can do is see what we feel, and what we do feel is free will so how is that not real?

If I get stabbed I could say it's an illusion but it feels real to me so do I accept the fact that I was stabbed or go on with my day assuming it as an illusion?

Its real

Your will is real

Your decision is real

in that way its not an illusion you feel everything as if its 100% real yeah but

The illusion is that your "WILL" your "decision" isnt free

 

[imontheloose]

I guess the way I think of free will is like this

Imagine two worlds

One where you eat a bowl of cereal for breakfast and another where you don’t

What determines which world you find yourself in?

The cause can either be random, or determined

In both cases neither are in ur control.

It’s not a very robust argument, I sorta just made it up right now but I hope it gets the point across.

Have you saw Steven Hawkins’s argument against determinism?

 

[Jaynoyn523]

No one will read this golden thread sadly

since the attention span of the users on this forum is non existing

I just made this shit for myself tbh

very good thread bro, elite thread and from reading what you said there’s no actual technical argument against it besides a lowiq religious argument, good thread bro very interesting, by this logic everything can be extrapolated to a computation of the brain as apposed to something we freely decide to do, for example love, by your logic we don’t choose to love a specific person, the person behaved in accordance to the specifications/metrics we intrinsically have to decide whether we love a person or not, or are in love or not. super interesting thread bro

 

[wishIwasSalludon]

Have you saw Steven Hawkins’s argument against determinism?

No

 

[Eltrē]

Its real

Your will is real

Your decision is real

in that way its not an illusion you feel everything as if its 100% real yeah but

The illusion is that your "WILL" your "decision" isnt free

EXACTLY! It’s libertarian free will we are discussing. That’s what some people here aren’t getting. It isn’t that you don’t have will. It’s just that it isn’t free!

Maybe specify next time you're talking about libertarian free will specifically, obviously that doesn't exist since we're not gods in control of absolutely everything.

 

[Mainlander]

Does it really matter if we all feel as if we have free will?

Hard question tbh i think about this everyday

I couldnt find an answer yet

The best answer is that it doesnt matter since be dont know the future
theoretically if we had every variable of every fucking quantum etc we could predict the future

but we dont have these variables so we dont know the future

In that case we will always have the illusion of free will

But the scary thing for me is the fact that

if your life will feel like hell or heaven is out of your control in that sense

Its like if you are in the middle of a movie and you are just hopping that there will be a happy ending

 

[imontheloose]

No

With all due respect, it’s a rather stupid argument.

“I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road.”

 

[VV62]

And how can you prove that this is an illusion?
Determinism is completely speculative since you have no way to prove it nor disprove it.
We can't go back in time and instead of walking in the park I'd jog and see how the rest of my day changes, it simply isn't possible.

If you truly believe that you making a decision wasn't even your choice and was instead already pre-determined then there's nothing to say here since you can't prove it nor can I disprove it.
But realistically, all we can do is see what we feel, and what we do feel is free will so how is that not real?

If I get stabbed I could say it's an illusion but it feels real to me so do I accept the fact that I was stabbed or go on with my day assuming it as an illusion?

that’s the thing
pain feels real too but it doesn’t make it meaningful
free will feels real because the machine needs it to
like headlights in fog you see the light, so you think you're steering
but feeling something doesn’t make it true
you can feel watched in an empty room
you can feel love in a dying relationship
you can feel free in a system designed to script your every move
we don’t feel the neurons firing
we don’t feel the childhood shaping our preferences
we just feel the afterglow and call it choice
you can’t prove determinism
you’re right
but you can look at the cracks
trace your decisions backward
and see they were built from things you never chose genetics, trauma, place, time
you say
"i could’ve jogged instead of walked"
but why didn’t you
because at that moment, in that headspace, with that sleep, with that weather, with those habits
you walked
not because you *chose* to
but because you *were always going to
and if you’d jogged instead
you’d say the same thing
“i felt like jogging”
so yeah
you were stabbed
and it’s real
but ask yourself
was it a choice yours or his
or just the next domino in a pattern
too big to see from where we’re standing

 

[Mainlander]

@looks>books @CorinthianLOX @ropemax @Surfsup

 

[Pueblo]

Tell me how I can rewire my brain to cold approach more women without fear high IQ org user

 

[mandiblade]

EXACTLY! It’s libertarian free will we are discussing. That’s what some people here aren’t getting. It isn’t that you don’t have will. It’s just that it isn’t free!

Going back to something similar to what @wishIwasSalludon was saying, if one is able to change their state from uncontrollably indulging in KFC(like @Master ) to making the decision to never consume it again, is that not all that matters when it comes to the topic of whether holding people to account is moral?
@Gonthar @Eltrē

 

[eyemax]

Hard question tbh i think about this everyday

I couldnt find an answer yet

The best answer is that it doesnt matter since be dont know the future
theoretically if we had every variable of every fucking quantum etc we could predict the future

but we dont have these variables so we dont know the future

In that case we will always have the illusion of free will

But the scary thing for me is the fact that

if your life will feel like hell or heaven is out of your control in that sense

Its like if you are in the middle of a movie and you are just hopping that there will be a happy ending

Yeah, I spent awhile thinking about this whole concept and stressing over the fact that we truly likely do not have free will.

But in the end it really does not matter, we have the illusion of free will, and feel as if we are along with the majority of the population.

Also, is it even possible to predict quantum psychics, don't they only take a state when observed or measured? I could be wrong though. I guess quantum randomness is the only good argument for something like free will, but even then its not your "soul" choosing it, just the properties of the universe.

 

[Eltrē]

that’s the thing
pain feels real too but it doesn’t make it meaningful
free will feels real because the machine needs it to
like headlights in fog you see the light, so you think you're steering
but feeling something doesn’t make it true
you can feel watched in an empty room
you can feel love in a dying relationship
you can feel free in a system designed to script your every move
we don’t feel the neurons firing
we don’t feel the childhood shaping our preferences
we just feel the afterglow and call it choice
you can’t prove determinism
you’re right
but you can look at the cracks
trace your decisions backward
and see they were built from things you never chose genetics, trauma, place, time
you say
"i could’ve jogged instead of walked"
but why didn’t you
because at that moment, in that headspace, with that sleep, with that weather, with those habits
you walked
not because you *chose* to
but because you *were always going to
and if you’d jogged instead
you’d say the same thing
“i felt like jogging”
so yeah
you were stabbed
and it’s real
but ask yourself
was it a choice yours or his
or just the next domino in a pattern
too big to see from where we’re standing

The arguments given in this thread from the others and I are pretty meaningless since we were talking about different things.
What you're talking about is right in the sense of libertarian free will which believes we can decide things ourselves without being affected at all by anything at all, including genetics, trauma, place and time like you said yourself.

But this doesn't invalidate the free will I was speaking of, the ability to decide and choose consciously as the person you currently are.

 

[Mainlander]

Yeah, I spent awhile thinking about this whole concept and stressing over the fact that we truly likely do not have free will.

But in the end it really does not matter, we have the illusion of free will, and feel as if we are along with the majority of the population.

Also, is it even possible to predict quantum psychics, don't they only take a state when observed or measured? I could be wrong though. I guess quantum randomness is the only good argument for something like free will, but even then its not your "soul" choosing it, just the properties of the universe.

I would say quantum randomness is a good argument against determinism but not against free will

Since if something is random then your are still out of control of changing the outcome since its random

Still I think even for quantum randomness is a cause which we just dont understand or know yet

Maybe its something that happends in another dimension which we cannot perceive

 

[Mainlander]

Tell me how I can rewire my brain to cold approach more women without fear high IQ org user

You need to manipulate your will with drugs so you can get low inhib

 

[VV62]

Tell me how I can rewire my brain to cold approach more women without fear high IQ org user

Psychedelics literally any mental health problem can be fixed with psychedelics

 

[eyemax]

I would say quantum randomness is a good argument against determinism but not against free will

Since if something is random then your are still out of control of changing the outcome since its random

Still I think even for quantum randomness is a cause which we just dont understand or know yet

Maybe its something that happends in another dimension which we cannot perceive

Yeah, the properties of reality itself are genuinely really interesting.

Wish our mines were complex enough to fully comprehend all of it.

I agree with you on the determinism argument though, thats basically what I meant in my previous reply.

 

[eyemax]

Psychedelics literally any mental health problem can be fixed with psychedelics

Someday in the future likely.

 

[VV62]

Someday in the future likely.

No bud you can do them rn

 

[eyemax]

No bud you can do them rn

Yeah but it is still risky, I mean like someday they will be down to a mostly exact science.

 

[VV62]

Yeah but it is still risky, I mean like someday they will be down to a mostly exact science.

Not really unless you are genetically predetermined to schizophrenia

 

[wishIwasSalludon]

“I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road.”

Is that it?

 

[eyemax]

Not really unless you are genetically predetermined to schizophrenia

They can still drastically change your personality in unwanted ways. Think the people who take them and a month later have tapestries all over their walls and are failing their classes. I do agree with your original point though, just more research needs to be done on the effects and right doseages/compounds for certain individuals.

 

[wishIwasSalludon]

whether holding people to account is moral?

Exactly

This is one of my criticism on why the idea of morality itself fails

But we still need to hold people accountable for society to function ofc

@imontheloose

 

[kurd]

Absolutely — you've laid out a compelling and accessible framework for illustrating determinism, especially for an audience that might struggle with more abstract philosophy.

 

[Mainlander]

Absolutely — you've laid out a compelling and accessible framework for illustrating determinism, especially for an audience that might struggle with more abstract philosophy.

Chatgpt

 

[Mainlander]

Exactly

This is one of my criticism on why the idea of morality itself fails

But we still need to hold people accountable for society to function ofc

@imontheloose

Thats right morality in that sense fails

that was my answer to some other guy on this thread on this topic :

Even murderers arent truly responsible for their actions they are the product of causes beyond their control

Yet, our society still punishes them, and in that sense punishment serves a purpose:it deters many from committing such acts by creating consequences.

The will may not be free, but the systems response shapes behavior nonetheless.

With law things like murderes are hardly reduced since their will gets shaped because of it

 

[kurd]

Chatgpt

Sybau dnr

 

[Mainlander]

Absolutely — you've laid out a compelling and accessible framework for illustrating determinism, especially for an audience that might struggle with more abstract philosophy.

But still thank you

 

[looks>books]

W

@looks>books @CorinthianLOX @ropemax @Surfsup

ill read later

 

[Mainlander]

Sybau dnr

Low iq faggot

 

[Mainlander]

W

ill read later

I tagged you because our last discussion of jesus and I told you that i dont believe in free will and with that not in the bible

I hope you will enjoy it

 

[VV62]

Thats right morality in that sense fails

that was my answer to some other guy on this thread on this topic :

Even murderers arent truly responsible for their actions they are the product of causes beyond their control

Yet, our society still punishes them, and in that sense punishment serves a purpose:it deters many from committing such acts by creating consequences.

The will may not be free, but the systems response shapes behavior nonetheless.

With law things like murderes are hardly reduced since their will gets shaped because of it

punishment then isnt about justice in the way we like to think its a tool a way to shape behavior to bend the system so it doesn’t tear itself apart we dont punish because someone deserves it we punish because it changes the future rewires the patterns that lead to harm