12 tooth smile is an unmoggable trait. Swallow the smilepill.

[NegativeNorwood]

Fuark

Appreciate the high quality reply mate.

Why self-ligating braces? What are your views on Damon braces on even Invisalign?

You're welcome!

Self ligating braces mog Invisalign hard because they give the orthodontist much more control, can also be 3d planned and move teeth more efficiently. Here's a study comparing Invisalign and self ligating braces, the group with self ligating braces had greater intercanine width increase (3.15mm vs 0.5mm of Invisalign):

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3254387/

Invisalign is 2x the price of self ligating braces btw.

Is this what you mean when you say the smiles are "full" and wide, not just flat and wide?

Exactly! That's the main difference.

What are the Power expander prices like?

Power Expander - 3D by OrthoLab

3d.ortholab.es

Besides this main page, couldnt find much published info by Dr. Varela, does he only operate in Spain?

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I'm a bit worried about the lower jaw, maybe at my age slowed expansion would allow the mandible to widen.

MSDO is invasive, gives a u-shaped jaw due to its expansion method and cuts and would take even more time

IMDO is nice but doesn't deal too much with the posterior jaw and seems more forward growth (mandible) oriented.

I don't know if orthodontics and tooth tipping would be enough for 12-18mm+ expansion , that i'd like to undergo

If you get a MARPE, then yes it should be more effective AFAIK.

I remember reading on Giant Implants' old IG page (yes, seriously) that the price was around 1000$ for the manufactured, custom made power expander alone. Can't confirm this tbh but it shouldn't be very expensive.

IIRC Varela does not operate, he's an ortho. AFAIK you can get the Power Expander custom made by Ortholab so your maxfac can use it.

IMDO only is a good option if you are a teen and have a recessed jaw. If you don't have a recessed jaw, you may need MSDO if you expand the upper jaw a lot to match it.

Definitely those are questions for a maxfac/blackpilled ortho tbh, my knowledge is limited to what I could gather here lurking and asking questions to high IQ users.

 

[AscendingHero]

I remember reading on Giant Implants' old IG page (yes, seriously) that the price was around 1000$ for the manufactured, custom made power expander alone. Can't confirm this tbh but it shouldn't be very expensive.

That's glorious

IIRC Varela does not operate, he's an ortho. AFAIK you can get the Power Expander custom made by Ortholab so yo, ur maxfac can use it.

Wow.

If I can get those nasal and oral volume gains and then get these paranasal/zygo gains (were from MSE/MARPE)

Zygomaticomaxillary modifications in the horizontal plane induced by micro-implant-supported skeletal expander, analyzed with CBCT images

Miniscrew-assisted rapid palatal expansion (MARPE) has been adopted in recent years to expand the maxilla in late adolescence and adult patients. Maxillary Skeletal Expander (MSE) is a device that exploits the principles of skeletal anchorage to transmit ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Should be so in theory if the power expander is such much stronger, will blast Relaxin agonists for future sutural loosening.

Definitely those are questions for a maxfac/blackpilled ortho tbh, my knowledge is limited to what I could gather here lurking and asking questions to high IQ users.

Fairs

 

[NegativeNorwood]

Bumping this legendary thread just to remind you that it's over if you don't have a smile and mouth area like this:

JFL at not getting SARPE, MSDO, self ligating braces, emax veneers, obscure lip lift variants and whatever it takes if you don't have a smile + mouth area like that.

 

[AscendingHero]

MSE is a type of MARPE, and needs surgical assistance to be effective in people over 16 years old.
The Power Expander device is based af, because it's custom made using your CBCT scan and is designed to be as powerful as possible, to make the expansion even and not cone shaped like happens with weaker devices. The Power Expander + self ligating braces should give you a Mila Kunis/Rodrigo Guirao type of smile (very wide posteriorly, not just anteriorly), which was something impossible with the weaker expansion devices:

Notice how their smiles are wide from the very first molars, not just from the front. That's the ideal and where the weaker expansion devices fail.

The Power Expander mogs the TPD because it's custom made and even stronger.

No idea if the alar cinch would hinder breathing gains or not.

Fuark

Appreciate the high quality reply mate.

Why self-ligating braces? What are your views on Damon braces on even Invisalign?


Is this what you mean when you say the smiles are "full" and wide, not just flat and wide?


Does it induce zygomatic flaring and midfacial bone borne expansion?

What are the Power expander prices like?

Power Expander - 3D by OrthoLab

3d.ortholab.es

Besides this main page, couldnt find much published info by Dr. Varela, does he only operate in Spain?

---

---

I'm a bit worried about the lower jaw, maybe at my age slowed expansion would allow the mandible to widen.

MSDO is invasive, gives a u-shaped jaw due to its expansion method and cuts and would take even more time

IMDO is nice but doesn't deal too much with the posterior jaw and seems more forward growth (mandible) oriented.

I don't know if orthodontics and tooth tipping would be enough for 12-18mm+ expansion , that i'd like to undergo

@Nims

When it comes to pure maxillary bone borne expansion, does the TPD or Power expander mog? What type of surgery would i need for the mandible if i expanded (16, 18, 24mm)?

In terms of midfacial gains and sutural disarticulation, do you think the TPD or Power expander is better?

Mind linking some TPD studies?

 

[HighClassMaxing]

bump

 

[hiwasuwor]

This is the mogger smile:

 

[NegativeNorwood]

Another great option to achieve a 12 tooth smile is SFOT (Surgically Facilitated Orthodontic Therapy) or PAOO (Periodontally Accelerated Osteogenic Orthodontics). It is braces combined with surgery, usually corticotomies, grafting into the alveolar bone to make it stronger, accelelerate tooth movement and make it more stable than with braces alone. It also shortens the time with braces considerably, it is up to 40-50% faster.

A result after only 9 months:

Facebook

www.facebook.com

Before:

After:

This is extremely aesthetic and usually provides awesome results. It is indicated for those who already had a normal palate width, but narrow dental arches. Up 10mm of arch expansion is possible AFAIK.
The average guy with a bad smile can have this and get a mogger one. Those less lucky can still get SARPE/BAME for palate expansion and SFOT/PAAO after that, and even get a bimax after if needed, so even the biggest birdcel can achieve a decent jaw and a 12 tooth smile with surgery.

 

[AscendingHero]

Another great option to achieve a 12 tooth smile is SFOT (Surgically Facilitated Orthodontic Therapy) or PAOO (Periodontally Accelerated Osteogenic Orthodontics). It is braces combined with surgery, usually corticotomies, grafting into the alveolar bone to make it stronger, accelelerate tooth movement and make it more stable than with braces alone. It also shortens the time with braces considerably, it is up to 40-50% faster.

A result after only 9 months:

Facebook

www.facebook.com

Before:

After:

This is extremely aesthetic and usually provides awesome results. It is indicated for those who already had a normal palate width, but narrow dental arches. Up 10mm of arch expansion is possible AFAIK.
The average guy with a bad smile can have this and get a mogger one. Those less lucky can still get SARPE/BAME for palate expansion and SFOT/PAAO after that, and even get a bimax after if needed, so even the biggest birdcel can achieve a decent jaw and a 12 tooth smile with surgery.

How long does expansion and recovery usually take with this ?

and how does it (PAOO) stack up with SOFT? what are your general thoughts on SOFT?

I'm a bit opposed to MSDO considering its unaesthetic cuts, invasiveness and required recovery

 

[NegativeNorwood]

How long does expansion and recovery usually take with this ?

and how does it (PAOO) stack up with SOFT? what are your general thoughts on SOFT?

I'm a bit opposed to MSDO considering its unaesthetic cuts, invasiveness and required recovery

AFAIK, PAAO and SFOT do the same. It is corticotomies + braces. The benefits mog incredibly hard, because if you needed braces either way, now you can get a thicker alveolar bone, better gums, wider arch and a more stable result in half as much time with PAAO or SFOT.

Almost no one gets MSDO, most people (that requiere wider upper palates) get PAAO or SFOT before, and match the lower dental arch with SARPE/BAME expansion in the upper. I guess they do it for the sake of convenience/reticence to practice MSDO.

The average person that has a narrow smile with visible buccal corridors but normal palate and chin width is the one who benefits a lot from SFOT and PAAO. If you see the Facebook post, the woman that had it done had straight lower teeth and decent palate width to begin with, so widening her arches alone gave her a perfect 12 tooth smile in only 9 months. Most people get Invisalign or braces for 18-24 months and don't get those aesthetic benefits, so this is incredibly convenient and powerful. Also it isn't very expensive, it normally costs the same as conventional braces, so if before you were paying 4k for braces, now add another 4k for corticotomies. Not cheap but not stupidly expensive.

This are the cuts btw, IIRC they do it a week before putting braces on the patient:

Someone that truly has airway problems and a very narrow upper and lower jaw would benefit from SARPE + MSDO before PAAO/SFOT, and even a bimax after, but this is rare in comparison. The max arch expansion you can get with SFOT/PAAO is around 10mm.

 

[bobsmith03]

Depends on your starting point. If you have both narrow palate and recessed jaws, and really want a 12 tooth smile...then you are looking at two rounds of invasive surgery with brutal recovery times.
If you have a 10 tooth smile and recessed jaws, some surgeons can widen your palate with a Lefort 1 and give you that 12 tooth smile without having to have SARPE before surgery (the possible amount of widening is not as much as with SARPE, which would be required if palate width is very narrow).
If you don't have recessed jaws but a narrow palate, then only SARPE.



Yes, definitely.

what if i have normal upper palate and lower but the arch is not rounded and normal

 

[Meister!]

Another great option to achieve a 12 tooth smile is SFOT (Surgically Facilitated Orthodontic Therapy) or PAOO (Periodontally Accelerated Osteogenic Orthodontics). It is braces combined with surgery, usually corticotomies, grafting into the alveolar bone to make it stronger, accelelerate tooth movement and make it more stable than with braces alone. It also shortens the time with braces considerably, it is up to 40-50% faster.

A result after only 9 months:

Facebook

www.facebook.com

Before:

After:

This is extremely aesthetic and usually provides awesome results. It is indicated for those who already had a normal palate width, but narrow dental arches. Up 10mm of arch expansion is possible AFAIK.
The average guy with a bad smile can have this and get a mogger one. Those less lucky can still get SARPE/BAME for palate expansion and SFOT/PAAO after that, and even get a bimax after if needed, so even the biggest birdcel can achieve a decent jaw and a 12 tooth smile with surgery.

What if you would go the bimax + segmental LF or SARPE route and then got SFOT/PAAO?

 

[Clark69]

View attachment 1662929

You sure about that ?

brutal. meanwhile 8 tooth smiles:

 

[Roge]

Exactly!
My narrow smile came with a narrow jaw and shorter than ideal ramus, it sucks but luckily it's fixable.

Hey, can I pm you about teeth please?