16 yr old looking to get approved for MSE+FP, need some input.

[Ataru]

I’m 16 years old looking to get an orthodontists’ approval on MSE+FP treatment since an MSE practitioner that Dr. Won Moon recommended legit lives 10 minutes away from me. Though I have a few questions that I need some high IQ users to help me out with.

Goals:Expand as aggressive as possible (12 mm) Wider midface, above average maxilla projection to achieve an ante face aesthetic, and to fix my slight mandibular recession (all I really need is 2-3 mm growth for the mandible) without opting for MSDO due to my age.

RISKS/Questions:

• Due to MSE treatment being so rapid (usually no more than half a year) then combining this with facepulling, the mandible has no time to catch up with the expansion of the maxilla. Even worse, since my mandible is slightly recessed already. Is the only way MSDO? Don't know if MSDO is an option given my age, maybe in 2-3 years.

• MSE+FP assuming its done at a fairly young age especially, (I’m 16) a person can expect to their midface to not only become wider but also more compact. Problem with this is my midface is already compact. We haven’t seen what MSE+FP can do to a person with an already compact midface. You’re probably wondering “why tf are you doing this then”. Like I said to achieve a wider mid face, and to improve my flatxilla. But is all that worth it but I risk having an overly compact mid-face, afraid I might look retarded. I personally don’t want a Barrett tier midface.

• How would I even convince the orthodontist to approve me for MSE+FP treatment. My bite is ALMOST perfect, with no more than a 3mm overbite. My palatal width is also pretty average (8 tooth smile). Any ideas? Don't wanna sound like I should be referred to a psychologist, doubt I can convince him by just saying "I can hardly breathe"

• How much force should I apply using the facepuller?, some say use as much as you can handle. Or should I start with lets say 1.0 KG of force for 16 hours a day for 1 month, then 2.0 KG of force for the 2nd month, gradually increasing every month. Keep in mind I can keep the facepuller on for almost 20 hours a day but I don’t know if my body can take that. MSE is already as painful as it is for the first few days.

Really need some these questions answered as this can be lifefuel for a lot of users, ESPECIALLY the youngins. Hopefully the ortho is willing to essentially create malocclusion for me because I really need to take advantage of my fairly high HGH levels to get massive gains before it's too late. AND YES I will provide 3D scans, if I can get approved for the treatment to begin with.

 

[nastynas]

summoning @Golden Glass

 

[Ataru]

summoning @Golden Glass

appreciate it he seems knowledgeable.

 

[GetThatBread]

It’s best to do MSE and MSDO at the same time or you’ll have TMJ problems. MSE is great for looksmaxxing but from the looks of it you have to find a black pill provider that isn’t scared to go past 10mm. I’m going to pressure my ortho to give me 2cm laterally and then building my own bone anchoring facepuller to expand sagittally

 

[Swolepenisman]

Ppls parents rlly paying for this I'd have to wait till 18

 

[Ataru]

It’s best to do MSE and MSDO at the same time or you’ll have TMJ problems. MSE is great for looksmaxxing but from the looks of it you have to find a black pill provider that isn’t scared to go past 10mm. I’m going to pressure my ortho to give me 2cm laterally and then building my own bone anchoring facepuller to expand sagittally

2 CM holy shit, is that for MSE or MSDO?

 

[GetThatBread]

2 CM holy shit, is that for MSE or MSDO?

Both. 1 cm is 10mm and they usually do 8 to 12mm so not too crazy.

 

[maxmendietta]

Ppls parents rlly paying for this I'd have to wait till 18

jfl im getting mse and fp for >100$ usd

 

[maxmendietta]

how?

kike ortho relativemaxxing - he givin me those for cheap. if i have good result ill do a self install mse guide so you can mse without getting your shekels stripped.

 

[Golden Glass]

OP I’ll answer your questions in a bit.

 

[Deusmaximus]

Is there a difference between a palate expande like this

And mse?
Also why mse and not sarpe?

 

[Golden Glass]

@Ataru Ok here you go:

• Due to MSE treatment being so rapid (usually no more than half a year) then combining this with facepulling, the mandible has no time to catch up with the expansion of the maxilla. Even worse, since my mandible is slightly recessed already. Is the only way MSDO? Don't know if MSDO is an option given my age, maybe in 2-3 years.

•MSDO is the “best option” (it actually grows and widens the chin and mandible itself, even in adults).

•However, if you don’t mind only getting tooth-borne results for your lower arch (with no visible change to your mandible as far as I know) then you can use an appliance to expand your lower arch, such as Hyrax, trombone, DNA, etc.

•At your age, even just an appliance can theoretically result in true mandibular growth, but if that’s what you want, best bet would be MSDO as well.

•If your mandible is slightly recessed, I’m not sure much can be done about it except IMDO or surgery, at your age.

• MSE+FP assuming its done at a fairly young age especially, (I’m 16) a person can expect to their midface to not only become wider but also more compact. Problem with this is my midface is already compact. We haven’t seen what MSE+FP can do to a person with an already compact midface. You’re probably wondering “why tf are you doing this then”. Like I said to achieve a wider mid face, and to improve my flatxilla. But is all that worth it but I risk having an overly compact mid-face, afraid I might look retarded. I personally don’t want a Barrett tier midface.

•Getting a wider midface won’t necessarily make your midface more compact. It can certainly result in your midface appearing more compact.

•Since you’re still 16, if you really feel your midface is too compact, you can easily cause downward growth if you want to lengthen the midface a bit—hell, you can achieve downward growth at any stage.

•To lengthen your midface all you’d need to do is use a face puller with a neutral angle, or even at a slightly negative angle. In MSE studies where they did this, this resulted in vertical growth of the midface. HOWEVER, this can also result in CW rotation of the maxilla, so make sure you really do have too compact a midface.

•If you’re satisfied with your current midface and just don’t want more compactness, then just facepull at a neutral angle.

• How would I even convince the orthodontist to approve me for MSE+FP treatment. My bite is ALMOST perfect, with no more than a 3mm overbite. My palatal width is also pretty average (8 tooth smile). Any ideas? Don't wanna sound like I should be referred to a psychologist, doubt I can convince him by just saying "I can hardly breathe"

•There have been MSE cases of patients who didn’t have any sort of bite issues that couldn’t be “solved” with extraction orthodontics. What you need to do is find the right ortho who has a function and aesthetic-focused approach.Fantastic examples would be Richard Ting in California and Sylvain Chamberlain in Quebec.

•”I can hardly breathe” is actually a suitable reason if you know how to phrase it and how to be genuine about it. This is the exact reason I have to the ortho who was Won Moons main research partner in the development of MSE (he didn’t think it would fix my recessed maxilla so he said he wouldn’t consider that as a reason to install MSE). Do you currently have perfect nasal breathing? If not, as long as you don’t have an IMW of like 50mm or something, then you can definitely find an MSE practitioner to work on you.

•What I would do if I were you is research as much as possible on MSE before consultation, and try to find an ortho already installing MSEs. I used to have a ton of MSE papers saved but lost them all after my computer failed, so I can’t help you there.

• How much force should I apply using the facepuller?, some say use as much as you can handle. Or should I start with lets say 1.0 KG of force for 16 hours a day for 1 month, then 2.0 KG of force for the 2nd month, gradually increasing every month. Keep in mind I can keep the facepuller on for almost 20 hours a day but I don’t know if my body can take that. MSE is already as painful as it is for the first few days.

•Not an expert on facepulling but...

•Start gradually, but increase force and time of use quicker than every month. I say this because MSE expansion takes like 3 months so you’d want to adapt faster than that. I’d say begin with an hour or two a day, and add something like an hour a week. You want to make sure you get some sort of constant pulling of the face at least daily though.

 

[Darkstrand]

@Ataru Ok here you go:

•MSDO is the “best option” (it actually grows and widens the chin and mandible itself, even in adults).

•However, if you don’t mind only getting tooth-borne results for your lower arch (with no visible change to your mandible as far as I know) then you can use an appliance to expand your lower arch, such as Hyrax, trombone, DNA, etc.

•At your age, even just an appliance can theoretically result in true mandibular growth, but if that’s what you want, best bet would be MSDO as well.

•If your mandible is slightly recessed, I’m not sure much can be done about it except IMDO or surgery, at your age.


•Getting a wider midface won’t necessarily make your midface more compact. It can certainly result in your midface appearing more compact.

•Since you’re still 16, if you really feel your midface is too compact, you can easily cause downward growth if you want to lengthen the midface a bit—hell, you can achieve downward growth at any stage.

•To lengthen your midface all you’d need to do is use a face puller with a neutral angle, or even at a slightly negative angle. In MSE studies where they did this, this resulted in vertical growth of the midface. HOWEVER, this can also result in CW rotation of the maxilla, so make sure you really do have too compact a midface.

•If you’re satisfied with your current midface and just don’t want more compactness, then just facepull at a neutral angle.




•There have been MSE cases of patients who didn’t have any sort of bite issues that couldn’t be “solved” with extraction orthodontics. What you need to do is find the right ortho who has a function and aesthetic-focused approach.Fantastic examples would be Richard Ting in California and Sylvain Chamberlain in Quebec.

•”I can hardly breathe” is actually a suitable reason if you know how to phrase it and how to be genuine about it. This is the exact reason I have to the ortho who was Won Moons main research partner in the development of MSE (he didn’t think it would fix my recessed maxilla so he said he wouldn’t consider that as a reason to install MSE). Do you currently have perfect nasal breathing? If not, as long as you don’t have an IMW of like 50mm or something, then you can definitely find an MSE practitioner to work on you.

•What I would do if I were you is research as much as possible on MSE before consultation, and try to find an ortho already installing MSEs. I used to have a ton of MSE papers saved but lost them all after my computer failed, so I can’t help you there.


•Not an expert on facepulling but...

•Start gradually, but increase force and time of use quicker than every month. I say this because MSE expansion takes like 3 months so you’d want to adapt faster than that. I’d say begin with an hour or two a day, and add something like an hour a week. You want to make sure you get some sort of constant pulling of the face at least daily though.

I hope you can help me there... Do you think it's possible to have MSE for 5 months or something with a bit slower expansion, I figure this might give Zygos and Orbitals more time to follow the maxilla movement... And most importantly, how can I contact WON Moon so he provides me with information on MSE, or is there a list of providers?

 

[Golden Glass]

I hope you can help me there... Do you think it's possible to have MSE for 5 months or something with a bit slower expansion, I figure this might give Zygos and Orbitals more time to follow the maxilla movement... And most importantly, how can I contact WON Moon so he provides me with information on MSE, or is there a list of providers?

You can email him. Search him up on google and get to his UCLA page. There’s also an MSE practitioner group on Facebook you can join but you’d have to do some digging through it.

 

[Ataru]

@Ataru Ok here you go:

•MSDO is the “best option” (it actually grows and widens the chin and mandible itself, even in adults).

•However, if you don’t mind only getting tooth-borne results for your lower arch (with no visible change to your mandible as far as I know) then you can use an appliance to expand your lower arch, such as Hyrax, trombone, DNA, etc.

•At your age, even just an appliance can theoretically result in true mandibular growth, but if that’s what you want, best bet would be MSDO as well.

•If your mandible is slightly recessed, I’m not sure much can be done about it except IMDO or surgery, at your age.


•Getting a wider midface won’t necessarily make your midface more compact. It can certainly result in your midface appearing more compact.

•Since you’re still 16, if you really feel your midface is too compact, you can easily cause downward growth if you want to lengthen the midface a bit—hell, you can achieve downward growth at any stage.

•To lengthen your midface all you’d need to do is use a face puller with a neutral angle, or even at a slightly negative angle. In MSE studies where they did this, this resulted in vertical growth of the midface. HOWEVER, this can also result in CW rotation of the maxilla, so make sure you really do have too compact a midface.

•If you’re satisfied with your current midface and just don’t want more compactness, then just facepull at a neutral angle.




•There have been MSE cases of patients who didn’t have any sort of bite issues that couldn’t be “solved” with extraction orthodontics. What you need to do is find the right ortho who has a function and aesthetic-focused approach.Fantastic examples would be Richard Ting in California and Sylvain Chamberlain in Quebec.

•”I can hardly breathe” is actually a suitable reason if you know how to phrase it and how to be genuine about it. This is the exact reason I have to the ortho who was Won Moons main research partner in the development of MSE (he didn’t think it would fix my recessed maxilla so he said he wouldn’t consider that as a reason to install MSE). Do you currently have perfect nasal breathing? If not, as long as you don’t have an IMW of like 50mm or something, then you can definitely find an MSE practitioner to work on you.

•What I would do if I were you is research as much as possible on MSE before consultation, and try to find an ortho already installing MSEs. I used to have a ton of MSE papers saved but lost them all after my computer failed, so I can’t help you there.


•Not an expert on facepulling but...

•Start gradually, but increase force and time of use quicker than every month. I say this because MSE expansion takes like 3 months so you’d want to adapt faster than that. I’d say begin with an hour or two a day, and add something like an hour a week. You want to make sure you get some sort of constant pulling of the face at least daily though.

Appreciate the well written response, let me ask you this. If you were in my position as in you had the same base as me (1.08-1.1 midface ratio, recessed mandible, flat maxilla, low FWHR) would you settle for MSE+FP at 16 but risk TMJ+ a probable aesthetically unpleasing result due to the maxilla not matching the mandible to then later opt for maybe MSDO, BSSO, etc at a later age. Or wait to combine MSE+MSDO+FP at a later age to avoid these issues altogether.

 

[Vermilioncore]

Just LDAR and become deadmaxxed

 

[Golden Glass]

Appreciate the well written response, let me ask you this. If you were in my position as in you had the same base as me (1.08-1.1 midface ratio, recessed mandible, flat maxilla, low FWHR) would you settle for MSE+FP at 16 but risk TMJ+ a probable aesthetically unpleasing result due to the maxilla not matching the mandible to then later opt for maybe MSDO, BSSO, etc at a later age. Or wait to combine MSE+MSDO+FP at a later age to avoid these issues altogether.

I would say try MSE + FP now if you can