Another Pagnoni Botch

[kingofkings]

As the thread title suggests, I developed various issues from Jaw surgery with this doctor. Immediate open bite two week-post op that has gotten worse (severe open bite now and crossbite, less tongue space/ oral volume, gummy smile). Functionally, I cannot chew at all anymore, can barely close my lips, lower jaw looks long, lower jaw relapsed and rotated clockwise. Lower jaw angle looks worse than BEFORE surgery, as I wasn't really that recessed. More of an asymmetry case, but now I've developed a Mandibular cant.

And of course, the worst is I also have developed very bad NON-union in both sides of my mandible where as one surgeon said "he did a BSSO cut that lacks scientific basis", as there is no bony contact resulting in continual bone resorption. He blamed the hardware failure but multiple surgeons have now confirmed it was his BSSO cut, which of course he will not admit.

And I understand complications can happen with any surgery, but I dislike how anytime I've had any issue I either have gotten ghosted, or the surgeon responds often in a very vague cold manner that doesn't answer my questions. Telling me to visit my Ortho as if they have a magic wand to fix all these severe post-op surgical complications.

He offered me a "free" revision, but I still would have to pay a number of surgical expenses, when in reality I should pay Zero for this severe functional complications, but its not really about the money. Most importantly, I didn't feel he really addressed my concerns, especially as I've suffered so much because of surgery from him and didn't even relay a surgical plan and just expects me to trust him.

And what's worse is I think he doesn't really care, immediately after my surgery he directly told me Multiple times he was bored with surgery to my surprise, after having just operated on me. I also dislike there is literally NO post-op care after you leave Italy which I didn't know, I expected some follow-up at least. Also I dislike that he heavily vapes during consultations which I could maybe ignore if he actually cared.

He is also heavily promoted on Looksmaxx forums, which I used to think was a good thing and had an aesthetic eye, but I found out he is promoted there because Giant Implants works with him, and has a moderator connection. People's posts often get deleted if there if there is a negative review regarding Giant or people he works with.

 

[tweaqo]

This is worrying tbh.

From the lack of responsibility of him to the cockiness from vaping. Reminds me of people’s experiences with Raffaini and his ego.

Very concerning that he would say he’s “bored” of surgery.

 

[ltn_looksminner]

he made a shitton of money , he no longer feels the need to perform , he just gotta retire at this point

 

[dough]

all the surgeons shilled on here are getting exposed

muh alfaro

muh raffaini

muh pagnoni

ramieri is next

 

[tweaqo]

all the surgeons shilled on here are getting exposed

muh alfaro

muh raffaini

muh pagnoni

ramieri is next

yeah unfortunately its true....

But I think it's especially true in the case of Bimax, it is a surgery which can and will be botched, and many surgeons don't want to admit when they have botched, due to their ego and reputation.

I made a thread attached below which details a lower risk alternative to bimax, with often better results, I would avoid bimax if possible.

HIGH EFFORT: “CAMOUFLAGE SURGERY?” BETTER THAN BIMAX?

Many people on this forum love to prescribe anyone who has recession on this forum: BIMAX. -BUT THIS IS NOT GOOD ADVICE FOR ALOT OF PEOPLE TLDR IS AT THE END While bimax is a good option, I often see underwhelming results aesthetically, even with large movements that include CCW/CW rotation...

looksmax.org

 

[Sicilian Cyclops]

 

[Sicilian Cyclops]

italians cant be trusted

 

[chrishell]

ramieri is next

i wont let him botch anyone

 

[savemebimax]

Italy was meant to be my saviour, ropefuel

 

[Seong Gi-Hun]

all the surgeons shilled on here are getting exposed

muh alfaro

muh raffaini

muh pagnoni

ramieri is next

Do NOT come after my goat ramieri.

 

[chrishell]

Do NOT come after my goat ramieri.

Whyis he your Goat

 

[Seong Gi-Hun]

Whyis he your Goat

Idk I've never even spoken to him teehee

 

[Ogionth]

As the thread title suggests, I developed various issues from Jaw surgery with this doctor. Immediate open bite two week-post op that has gotten worse (severe open bite now and crossbite, less tongue space/ oral volume, gummy smile). Functionally, I cannot chew at all anymore, can barely close my lips, lower jaw looks long, lower jaw relapsed and rotated clockwise. Lower jaw angle looks worse than BEFORE surgery, as I wasn't really that recessed. More of an asymmetry case, but now I've developed a Mandibular cant.

And of course, the worst is I also have developed very bad NON-union in both sides of my mandible where as one surgeon said "he did a BSSO cut that lacks scientific basis", as there is no bony contact resulting in continual bone resorption. He blamed the hardware failure but multiple surgeons have now confirmed it was his BSSO cut, which of course he will not admit.

And I understand complications can happen with any surgery, but I dislike how anytime I've had any issue I either have gotten ghosted, or the surgeon responds often in a very vague cold manner that doesn't answer my questions. Telling me to visit my Ortho as if they have a magic wand to fix all these severe post-op surgical complications.

He offered me a "free" revision, but I still would have to pay a number of surgical expenses, when in reality I should pay Zero for this severe functional complications, but its not really about the money. Most importantly, I didn't feel he really addressed my concerns, especially as I've suffered so much because of surgery from him and didn't even relay a surgical plan and just expects me to trust him.

And what's worse is I think he doesn't really care, immediately after my surgery he directly told me Multiple times he was bored with surgery to my surprise, after having just operated on me. I also dislike there is literally NO post-op care after you leave Italy which I didn't know, I expected some follow-up at least. Also I dislike that he heavily vapes during consultations which I could maybe ignore if he actually cared.

He is also heavily promoted on Looksmaxx forums, which I used to think was a good thing and had an aesthetic eye, but I found out he is promoted there because Giant Implants works with him, and has a moderator connection. People's posts often get deleted if there if there is a negative review regarding Giant or people he works with.

@flatcheck213

 

[SkeetNeet]

Not trying to defend Pags or discredit the patient, but when you say “another” I feel it’s important to to clarify that this user is almost certainly the user who was recently banned from this site who said he was botched by Pagnoni.

Just mentioning this so people don’t think that they’re two different people who are reporting issues.

 

[Mr.Proper]

all the surgeons shilled on here are getting exposed

muh alfaro

muh raffaini

muh pagnoni

ramieri is next

People desperately need some sort of hope for the "ultimate looksmax", like "at least if I save money and go for that hyped dude (they say he has an eye for aesthetics), I'm pretty much guaranteed to ascend". But reality shows that you can't be ignorant with such things and let it go by itself, plus there are risks of botches even with a decent surgeon and a decent candidate, you should always do your research well and have money for additional stuff/revisions and time for recovery planned.

 

[chrishell]

Not trying to defend Pags or discredit the patient, but when you say “another” I feel it’s important to to clarify that this user is almost certainly the user who was recently banned from this site who said he was botched by Pagnoni.

Just mentioning this so people don’t think that they’re two different people who are reporting issues.

Correct it is them

 

[throwaway5028]

Italy was meant to be my saviour, ropefuel

Mammamia

 

[lurking truecel]

Not trying to defend Pags or discredit the patient, but when you say “another” I feel it’s important to to clarify that this user is almost certainly the user who was recently banned from this site who said he was botched by Pagnoni.

Just mentioning this so people don’t think that they’re two different people who are reporting issues.

And that dude had 5 genios apparently

 

[lurking truecel]

But on top of the botches his proce has gone from 24k to 32k in less then a year. Retirment plan is ongoing

 

[LEFORT17]

But on top of the botches his proce has gone from 24k to 32k in less then a year. Retirment plan is ongoing

hit up ramieri atp

 

[lurking truecel]

hit up ramieri atp

You all sleeping on celal

 

[LEFORT17]

You all sleeping on celal

 

[lurking truecel]

 

[Devon]

As the thread title suggests, I developed various issues from Jaw surgery with this doctor. Immediate open bite two week-post op that has gotten worse (severe open bite now and crossbite, less tongue space/ oral volume, gummy smile). Functionally, I cannot chew at all anymore, can barely close my lips, lower jaw looks long, lower jaw relapsed and rotated clockwise. Lower jaw angle looks worse than BEFORE surgery, as I wasn't really that recessed. More of an asymmetry case, but now I've developed a Mandibular cant.

And of course, the worst is I also have developed very bad NON-union in both sides of my mandible where as one surgeon said "he did a BSSO cut that lacks scientific basis", as there is no bony contact resulting in continual bone resorption. He blamed the hardware failure but multiple surgeons have now confirmed it was his BSSO cut, which of course he will not admit.

And I understand complications can happen with any surgery, but I dislike how anytime I've had any issue I either have gotten ghosted, or the surgeon responds often in a very vague cold manner that doesn't answer my questions. Telling me to visit my Ortho as if they have a magic wand to fix all these severe post-op surgical complications.

He offered me a "free" revision, but I still would have to pay a number of surgical expenses, when in reality I should pay Zero for this severe functional complications, but its not really about the money. Most importantly, I didn't feel he really addressed my concerns, especially as I've suffered so much because of surgery from him and didn't even relay a surgical plan and just expects me to trust him.

And what's worse is I think he doesn't really care, immediately after my surgery he directly told me Multiple times he was bored with surgery to my surprise, after having just operated on me. I also dislike there is literally NO post-op care after you leave Italy which I didn't know, I expected some follow-up at least. Also I dislike that he heavily vapes during consultations which I could maybe ignore if he actually cared.

He is also heavily promoted on Looksmaxx forums, which I used to think was a good thing and had an aesthetic eye, but I found out he is promoted there because Giant Implants works with him, and has a moderator connection. People's posts often get deleted if there if there is a negative review regarding Giant or people he works with.

brutasl

 

[eyebagcel]

damn this is disheartening sorry man. pretty much no trustworthy plastic surgeons left

 

[DonaldJTrump]

seems like theres not a single fully trustworthy blackpilled surgeon then...

 

[LEFORT17]

seems like theres not a single fully trustworthy blackpilled surgeon then...

ramieri my goat

 

[DonaldJTrump]

ramieri my goat

he has had botches before, which is normal of course as long as theyre rare, even pagnoni i still might trust because his are so rare, but ramieri is also bluepilled

 

[LEFORT17]

he has had botches before, which is normal of course as long as theyre rare, even pagnoni i still might trust because his are so rare, but ramieri is also bluepilled

ramieri can 100% give you that 20mm advancement as pagnoni and he has ,,botched'' only one guy what i have heard of which wasnt something big. 2mm genio setback and he claimed he got sagging soft tissues after that. For implants pagnoni mogs ramieri for sure

 

[keife]

As the thread title suggests, I developed various issues from Jaw surgery with this doctor. Immediate open bite two week-post op that has gotten worse (severe open bite now and crossbite, less tongue space/ oral volume, gummy smile). Functionally, I cannot chew at all anymore, can barely close my lips, lower jaw looks long, lower jaw relapsed and rotated clockwise. Lower jaw angle looks worse than BEFORE surgery, as I wasn't really that recessed. More of an asymmetry case, but now I've developed a Mandibular cant.

And of course, the worst is I also have developed very bad NON-union in both sides of my mandible where as one surgeon said "he did a BSSO cut that lacks scientific basis", as there is no bony contact resulting in continual bone resorption. He blamed the hardware failure but multiple surgeons have now confirmed it was his BSSO cut, which of course he will not admit.

And I understand complications can happen with any surgery, but I dislike how anytime I've had any issue I either have gotten ghosted, or the surgeon responds often in a very vague cold manner that doesn't answer my questions. Telling me to visit my Ortho as if they have a magic wand to fix all these severe post-op surgical complications.

He offered me a "free" revision, but I still would have to pay a number of surgical expenses, when in reality I should pay Zero for this severe functional complications, but its not really about the money. Most importantly, I didn't feel he really addressed my concerns, especially as I've suffered so much because of surgery from him and didn't even relay a surgical plan and just expects me to trust him.

And what's worse is I think he doesn't really care, immediately after my surgery he directly told me Multiple times he was bored with surgery to my surprise, after having just operated on me. I also dislike there is literally NO post-op care after you leave Italy which I didn't know, I expected some follow-up at least. Also I dislike that he heavily vapes during consultations which I could maybe ignore if he actually cared.

He is also heavily promoted on Looksmaxx forums, which I used to think was a good thing and had an aesthetic eye, but I found out he is promoted there because Giant Implants works with him, and has a moderator connection. People's posts often get deleted if there if there is a negative review regarding Giant or people he works with.

Do u like eppley

 

[chrishell]

he has had botches before, which is normal of course as long as theyre rare, even pagnoni i still might trust because his are so rare, but ramieri is also bluepilled

Proof

 

[Don12456]

@RealSurgerymax What do you think of this?

Can Pagnoni still be trusted?

 

[RealSurgerymax]

@RealSurgerymax What do you think of this?

Can Pagnoni still be trusted?

What a dumb question honestly. You guys are delusional if you really think there's a such thing as an experienced surgeon without complications and need a brutal reality check about that. Pags is the best. Success MOST of the time is as good as it can get. Most surgeons cant even deliver that.

Anyway I wasn't involved in this case that I know of.

Proof

Like this. Is this guy actually coping so hard to believe there might be a God-surgeon? The fantasy is laughable. Just because there's no bad comments online right now (because the one from a few months ago got taken down by legal action) You can only see thorough such a limited window online yet think you have a tally of everything that has ever happened.

Online optics are not reliable at all - happy patients want to forget/hide they had surgery so they never say anything. Most with complications actually don't say anything either because a lot are reasonable people and know we're still there to help, even if there will be additional expenses. But a few are entitled freaks with personality disorders/victim mindset (or just desperate because they have no emergency fund.) The latter will turn on the surgeon and scream it from the rooftops online that they got "BOTCHED".

Most bad reviews get taken down by legal teams. Almost ALL surgeons use this. Especially the ones in America with a perfect online record. Youre already locked into private legally-binding arbitration agreements (no public court records.) There was a bad review on reddit a few months ago about the other Italian but it's gone now. And now that its gone it's like it never happened. It's very easy to get things taken down and people think they cant be sued - they can because its not about winning or losing, its about the lawsuit process itself being painful as possible. Sure you can argue it's just your honest review but you will have to pay a lawyer 30, 40, 50K + to defend everything you said in a court of law, and if you win you dont get anything, you just get to keep your reviews up. So everyone just takes them down once they get that lawsuit letter.

Look at the "botched by taban" kid. Trying to represent himself in court, which of course is impossible, and he found that out way too late. Now he's in way over his head against Tabans lawyers and his life is ruined. I dont know what's gotten into people lately. People who say "I can post my honest review" remind me of people in those police videos saying "I know my rights!!!" and always end up getting arrested lol. It's more worth it for a surgeon to sue you than its worth it to the patient to defend their reviews in court $$$

 

[tweaqo]

@RealSurgerymax

I spoke with one of the patients of Pagnoni and he showed me proof of scans, he seems to be trying a new method of BSSO cut, which seemed to be a lot further back on the mandible, closer to the ramus.

Apparently (correct if wrong), there is less bony contact when making the cut here, and when the patient begins to do normal things, like chewing, the condyles can be damaged.

I think me and some other members on this forum were right about Pagnoni “experimenting” a new method during bimax, which seems to be this new cut during the BSSO.

This isn’t to say that Pagnoni is a bad surgeon, hopefully this is a one-off thing, I’ve heard he’s excellent and genioplasties.

@lurking truecel

 

[BoredPrince]

he has had botches before, which is normal of course as long as theyre rare, even pagnoni i still might trust because his are so rare, but ramieri is also bluepilled

ramieri can 100% give you that 20mm advancement as pagnoni and he has ,,botched'' only one guy what i have heard of which wasnt something big. 2mm genio setback and he claimed he got sagging soft tissues after that. For implants pagnoni mogs ramieri for sure

From everything I've seen ramieri is good, but he's not blackpilled, even he says his foremost concern is functionality not looks

And the results seem to confirm that, often times mandible and chin lacks projection after surgery to be in perfect alignment with maxilla


Plus he doesn't really do any extra surgeries or soft tissue manipulation, he can improve your face but he won't ascend you

 

[Don12456]

What a dumb question honestly. You guys are delusional if you really think there's a such thing as an experienced surgeon without complications and need a brutal reality check about that. Pags is the best. Success MOST of the time is as good as it can get. Most surgeons cant even deliver that.

Anyway I wasn't involved in this case that I know of.

Like this. Is this guy actually coping so hard to believe there might be a god surgeon? The fantasy is laughable. Just because there's no bad comments online right now (because the one from a few months ago got taken down by legal action) You can only see such a SMALL window of reality online yet think you know everything that has ever happened.

Online optics are not reliable at all - happy patients want to forget they had surgery and hide that they had it, most with complications actually dont say anything either because they are reasonable people and know we will still be able to help them, not entitled freaks with personality disorders/victim mindset (or just desperate because they have no emergency fund.) The latter will turn on the surgeon and scream it from the rooftops online that they got "BOTCHED". Most bad reviews get taken down by legal teams. There was a VERY bad review on reddit a few months ago about the other Italian but it's gone now. It's very easy to get things taken down and people think they cant be sued - they can. Sure they can argue it's just their honest review but you will have to pay a lawyer 30, 40, 50K to defend everything you said in a court of law, and if you win you dont get anything, you just get to keep your reviews up. So everyone just takes the down. Look at the "botched by taban" kid. Trying to represent himself in court, which of course is impossible, and he found that out way too late that he's in way over his head against Tabans lawyers. I dont know what's gotten into people lately. People who say "I can post my honest review" remind me of people in those police videos saying "I know my rights!!!" and always end up getting arrested lol.

What do you think of the safety of his BSSO cut specifically? It seems to be much further back and causing unstability.

 

[RealSurgerymax]

What do you think of the safety of his BSSO cut specifically? It seems to be much further back and causing unstability.

This isn't a new cut, It's a Hunsuck - Dal Pont BSSO. All the big 3 Italians use it sometimes, it's also common in Brazil. Rameiri has a good lecture on why he doesnt like anterior BSSOs somewhere. Maybe YouTube I saw it years ago. Sometimes it just fits the anatomy better and it has a lower risk of bad split. I think you guys are reading into it too deep.

 

[Don12456]

This isn't a new cut, It's a Hunsuck - Dal Pont BSSO. All the big 3 Italians use it sometimes, it's also common in Brazil. Rameiri has a good lecture on why he doesnt like anterior BSSOs somewhere. Maybe YouTube I saw it years ago. Sometimes it just fits the anatomy better and it has a lower risk of bad split. I think you guys are reading into it too deep.

Does Ramieri do saddled infras now too? Do you have any experience working with him?

 

[Foreverbrad]

This isn't a new cut, It's a Hunsuck - Dal Pont BSSO. All the big 3 Italians use it sometimes, it's also common in Brazil. Rameiri has a good lecture on why he doesnt like anterior BSSOs somewhere. Maybe YouTube I saw it years ago. Sometimes it just fits the anatomy better and it has a lower risk of bad split. I think you guys are reading into it too deep.

There seems to be a systemic problem with it lately though, is it really just coincidence?