Antinatalism is the ultimate truth

[Reckless Turtle]

A bunch of depressed people whose lives has no meaning masquerading nihilism as utilitarianism

Strawman and deflection

 

[Gengar]

Makes no sense.

"Addiction kills" in some cases because that addiction is causing the body to rapidly deteriorate. The pleasure factor is irrelevant.

Specifically in drug addictions. Gaming addictions or porn addictions aren't what I'm talking about. But people generally don't turn to drugs due to a reason other than pleasure. In fact, they keep coming back to it because it gives them pleasure. And it can be fatal. Whether accidental or on purpose. So an absence of pleasure isn't inherently bad, it can be good, too.

 

[mogger123]

The correct logic is that suffering is inherent whereas pleasure isn't.

?

what are you even trying to say here. inherent to what. all life experiences a mix of reward/punishment mechanisms to incentivise survival oriented and reproductive behaviour

 

[Zonar]

Stumbling on this forum as a teen means you did something wrong in your life.

I didn't do anything wrong, but moving to the west definitely was

 

[khvirgin]

Strawman and deflection

Strawman?

Go to reddit and see the overlaps and then talk to me

The average antinatalist is a depressed hedonist degenerate, you think the average antinatalist is Cioran?

Nothing to deflect either

Why argue with an opponent that wants to die?

 

[Reckless Turtle]

So an absence of pleasure isn't inherently bad, it can be good, too.

No, you're arguing semantics on the basis of some forms of pleasure being attached to factors that are detrimental to health rather than isolating the concept of pleasure.

 

[Gengar]

I didn't do anything wrong, but moving to the west definitely was

Moving to the west is the number one mistake of non-white parents. For a plethora of reasons. But they all come here for "muh economical reasons. "

 

[wollet2]

my consciousness is uniquely tied to neuronal structures of my brain unless you're talking about some kind of 'spirit' floating in the ether like a medieval caveman

I don't even feel my consciousness or self identity when I'm sleeping yet it's too insane to imagine not having one? I experience it everyday when I go to sleep

yes your current consciosness is specifically tied to your current brain. i didnt talk about any spirit retard, only that unconsiousness isnt experienceable, when you sleep there is a point of waking up, so you can tell youve been unconscious, you can tell it happened but never experience it, you can only point at it

you believe you will be in this state forever without waking up, when its inconceivable to think abt (and then call life weird) and new beings are brought into existence from nothing all the time (like you were ) . im not saying you can e sure but it puts you at serious thoughts vs your retarded confident beliefs . coping improves the quality of llife i gotta say but sadly reality is utter shit

 

[Gengar]

No, you're arguing semantics on the basis of some forms of pleasure being attached to factors that are detrimental to health rather than isolating the concept of pleasure.

Arguing semantics? Do you understand what means? It means saying B, C or D instead of A even though they all mean the same thing in essence. I'm not doing that all?

 

[Reckless Turtle]

inherent to what

Existence (at least for humans)

all life experiences a mix of reward/punishment mechanisms to incentivise survival oriented and reproductive behaviour

Correct, and suffering is an inherent evolutionary mechanism (for humans). Pleasure is not.

 

[wollet2]

antinatalists are just insentient nihilists. theyre on the right track but ultimately fail to see that non-existence is not better or worse than what is

how do you define non existence in here

 

[mogger123]

Existence (at least for humans)


Correct, and suffering is an inherent evolutionary mechanism (for humans). Pleasure is not.

how is pleasure not? when i eat food or have sex it feels good. how is that not evolutionary

 

[mogger123]

how do you define non existence in here

imagine existing. then imagine the opposite of that

 

[wollet2]

imagine existing. then imagine the opposite of that

it fucks my mind, it is inconceivable, i dont think you can be in "non existence" forever

 

[mogger123]

it fucks my mind, it is inconceivable, i dont think you can be in "non existence" forever

idk im a nihilist so i dont believe anhyhting exists in the first place

 

[Reckless Turtle]

Strawman?

Go to reddit and see the overlaps and then talk to me

The average antinatalist is a depressed hedonist degenerate, you think the average antinatalist is Cioran?

Nothing to deflect either

You aren't responding to the argument. Instead, you're creating strawmans.

Why argue with an opponent that wants to die?

You clearly don't even know the definition of the term you're arguing about, thus creating a strawman.

 

[khvirgin]

Imagine a retard telling you that having kids is selfish (not having kids when youre poor or mentally ill, having kids at all)

His solution?
Not partecipating or creating society, which is unironically the most selfish thing you could do

Creating a new life to nurture and look after is selfish, creating 1000 threads rating Victoria secret models is selfless according to @Reckless Turtle

 

[wollet2]

idk im a nihilist so i dont believe anhyhting exists in the first place

does this belief help you withstand "hard" situations better

whats your stance on physical pain, how one should handle it if it feels bad

 

[mogger123]

Imagine a retard telling you that having kids is selfish (not having kids when youre poor or mentally ill, having kids at all)

His solution?
Not partecipating or creating society, which is unironically the most selfish thing you could do

Creating a new life to nurture and look after is selfish, creating 1000 threads rating Victoria secret models is selfless according to @Reckless Turtle

legit, good point. contributing to fertility rates being below replacement rate is probably the most selfish thing you can do

 

[Halonyx]

yes your current consciosness is specifically tied to your current brain. i didnt talk about any spirit retard, only that unconsiousness isnt experienceable, when you sleep there is a point of waking up, so you can tell youve been unconscious, you can tell it happened but never experience it, you can only point at it

you believe you will be in this state forever without waking up, when its inconceivable to think abt (and then call life weird) and new beings are brought into existence from nothing all the time (like you were ) . im not saying you can e sure but it puts you at serious thoughts vs your retarded confident beliefs . coping improves the quality of llife i gotta say but sadly reality is utter shit

lol your argument is basically death denial and assumes everlasting life and reincarnation without any shred of evidence

you're a fucking coward to even think like this tho. like you can't even imagine not existing when that should be the default based on current evidence

 

[mogger123]

does this belief help you withstand "hard" situations better

whats your stance on physical pain, how one should handle it if it feels bad

no. i tend to keep my philisophical beliefs entirely separate from living my life.

medication from doctors

 

[wollet2]

lol your argument is basically death denial and assumes everlasting life and reincarnation without any shred of evidence

you're a fucking coward to even think like this tho. like you can't even imagine not existing when that should be the default based on current evidence

there are logical signs and a thought pattern that makkes more sense than yours
what are the current evidence supporting that not existing is the default. do we measure the beings not existing

and lol at calling me a coward when its one of the most horrific truths there is, you think youre gonna get away after your death and not experience every possible torture and death there is

keep coping i wish i could too tbh

 

[wollet2]

no. i tend to keep my philisophical beliefs entirely separate from living my life.

medication from doctors

if it doesnt work and he is in chronic pain, does the person have a philosophical right to say life is shit or suffering is real?

im just trying to understand the value of thinking nothing exists and how do you reach that conclusion because its interesting

 

[Reckless Turtle]

Arguing semantics? Do you understand what means? It means saying B, C or D instead of A even though they all mean the same thing in essence. I'm not doing that all?

Yes. You attached addiction to the meaning of pleasure and made a logical fallacy. Your statement

Absence of pleasure can be a great thing, actually.

should be corrected to:

Absence of certain addictions can be a great thing, actually.

The absence of pleasure is not "good." The absence of certain addictions could be "good," however.

 

[mogger123]

if it doesnt work and he is in chronic pain, does the person have a philosophical right to say life is shit

nobody needs a philosophical right to do anything ever. they can say and believe whatever the fuck they want. but if they try speaking for others then they cant be expected to be taken seriously

 

[Gengar]

Creating a new life to nurture and look after is selfish

For 99.99% people it is done out of selfish reasons. They want a mini-me, a "legacy." Why not adopt an orphan in need? That's truly selfless. Ideally, I think every aspiring parent should take in an orphan for every child that is their own (with governments providing financial support).

 

[Squirtoutmabooty]

Then kys pussy not my problem

 

[Reckless Turtle]

how is pleasure not? when i eat food or have sex it feels good. how is that not evolutionary

I never said that they weren't. I said that pleasure isn't inherent (at an individual level for humans) because the evolutionary process did not result in pleasure being inherent (for humans, at an individual level).

 

[Gengar]

Yes. You attached addiction to the meaning of pleasure and made a logical fallacy. Your statement

should be corrected to:


The absence of pleasure is not "good." The absence of certain addictions could be "good," however.

That is because people are addicted due to the pleasure a certain substance gives them. How is that a "logical fallacy"? It is just logic. Would people be addicted to something that doesn't give them pleasure?

 

[mogger123]

I never said that they weren't. I said that pleasure isn't inherent (at an individual level for humans) because the evolutionary process did not result in pleasure being inherent (for humans, at an individual level).

bro i dont think you know what inherent means. how is pleasure not inherent?

 

[khvirgin]

You aren't responding to the argument. Instead, you're creating strawmans.

You clearly don't even know the definition of the term you're arguing about, thus creating a strawman.

I do
I know you pussies dont want to kill yourself because "MUH WE DONT WANT TO DIE, WE JUST WANTED TO NEVER EXIST IN THE FIRST PLACE, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT NOT CREATING NEW LIFE, NOT ABOUT ENDING THE CURRENT ONE"

Is this negative utilitarianism yes or no? Yes

Your suicide is gonna be painful but you will cease to exist
sounds like a good deal to me

If you argue that it's better to not exist, than why would you keep existing? Because
1) You're terrorized of roping
2) you're tacitly accepting that life has value beyond suffering.


I don't care, it's a self defeating ideology, it's a non issue

You don't procrate, I don't care, if everyone does that antinatalism is dead.

 

[wollet2]

nobody needs a philosophical right to do anything ever. they can say and believe whatever the fuck they want. but if they try speaking for others then they cant be expected to be taken seriously

i mean would you -personally- consider him dumb and that he misses on some insight that would make him have a different belief
if he said suffering exists

im just interested in knowing how do you reach your conclusion of nothing existing, i understand your nihilism
do you view it from a solipstistic position, that if you have never experienced it to you it might not exist, i dont understand this part

 

[mogger123]

i mean would you -personally- consider him dumb and that he misses on some insight that would make him have a different belief
if he said suffering exists

im just interested in knowing how do you reach your conclusion of nothing existing, i understand your nihilism
do you view it from a solipstistic position, that if you have never experienced it to you it might not exist, i dont understand this part

i wouldnt consider him dumb, but i wouldnt expect him to have a balanced view of existence

go back to the beginning. how do you reach the conclusion of something existing? and im looking for something a bit more meaningful than it just does or muh senses

 

[Reckless Turtle]

Not partecipating or creating society, which is unironically the most selfish thing you could do

No, creating suffering is the most selfish act.

Imagine a retard telling you that having kids is selfish (not having kids when youre poor or mentally ill, having kids at all)

Creating a new life to nurture and look after is selfish, creating 1000 threads rating Victoria secret models is selfless according to @

@Reckless Turtle

More strawmans and ad homs. It's also ironic coming from someone who is particularly whiny, unproductive, and offers little value.

 

[khvirgin]

someone who is particularly whiny, unproductive, and offers little value.

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good night lil bro

Remember to tag me in the next 100 victoria secrets models rating threads, so I can be more productive

 

[lil truecel]

well if you are incel there isnt much point in being anti natalist, its not like us truecels have a choice

 

[Reckless Turtle]

That is because people are addicted due to the pleasure a certain substance gives them. How is that a "logical fallacy"? It is just logic.

The absence of pleasure is not "good." The absence of certain addictions could be "good," however.

Would people be addicted to something that doesn't give them pleasure?

Possibly, but that's irrelevant, as I already argued.

 

[DelonLover1999]

This slide looks like it came straight from presentation called "why abortion isn't even bad for the baby, lol"

Thomas aquinas mogs this point of view with the following argument (I'm paraphrasing, btw):

Suicide is a logical trap. By doing it, one would hope that they would be better, that they would get rid of all the sorrow and pain in their life. But one cannot be better, if one ceases to be.

Camus also mogs:

When you see someone talking on a telephone, for example, and they have a distraught look on their face, like their whole world is about to crumble - it's merely a show. It's all a dumb show. The things that look like they matter, don't. Reality is absurd. Why kill yourself? Stick it to the Gods and carry the stone all the way up the hill, like Atlas himself.

 

[Gengar]

Possibly, but that's irrelevant, as I already argued.

Name some things where that's possible? It's not irrelevant, it's quite relevant. Philosophy doesn't not tackle certain subjects just because "it's not relevant." Any possible theory is relevant.

 

[Reckless Turtle]

bro i dont think you know what inherent means.

Ironic.

how is pleasure not inherent?

Humans can exist without experiencing pleasure.

 

[DelonLover1999]

Humans can exist without experiencing pleasure.

Some humans can exist without experiencing physical pain, too.
I think you're using the term 'inherent' a bit too liberally.

 

[wollet2]

i wouldnt consider him dumb, but i wouldnt expect him to have a balanced view of existence

go back to the beginning. how do you reach the conclusion of something existing? and im looking for something a bit more meaningful than it just does or muh senses

i see, i dont have the philosophical background to answer in the way you want, my answers just rely on what obvservation of senses i can do, i know that is too superficial for you. so i would probably say because i experience things
also i would like to know your definition of something existing, does it have to hold certain attributes that they never change


has anyone influenced your beliefs on the matter that i could read and understand
thx

 

[mogger123]

Ironic.


Humans can exist without experiencing pleasure.

Warmth and nutrition in uterus

 

[Reckless Turtle]

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You're more obsessed with what a group of Redditors think than actually addressing the argument.

Is this negative utilitarianism yes or no? Yes

No, because negative utilitarianism is a philosophy that assumes existence has already occurred.

If you argue that it's better to not exist, than why would you keep existing? Because
1) You're terrorized of roping
2) you're tacitly accepting that life has value beyond suffering.

Most people continue to exist due to survival instinct, which occurs in most humans in spite of suffering.

You don't procrate, I don't care, if everyone does that antinatalism is dead.

And?

Remember to tag me in the next 100 victoria secrets models rating threads, so I can be more productive

You aren't productive regardless of my existence.

 

[wollet2]

Thomas aquinas mogs this point of view with the following argument (I'm paraphrasing, btw):

Suicide is a logical trap. By doing it, one would hope that they would be better, that they would get rid of all the sorrow and pain in their life. But one cannot be better, if one ceases to be.

isnt the absence of sorrow and pain "better"

the problem is that you wont be there to experience this absence while doing something else like walking

 

[Reckless Turtle]

Name some things where that's possible? It's not irrelevant, it's quite relevant. Philosophy doesn't not tackle certain subjects just because "it's not relevant." Any possible theory is relevant.

There may be forms of addiction to suffering that yield no measurable pleasure. Even assuming that all forms of addiction are rooted in pleasure, it's irrelevant for the following reason:

You attached addiction to the meaning of pleasure and made a logical fallacy. Your statement
should be corrected to:

The absence of pleasure is not "good." The absence of certain addictions could be "good," however.

 

[Reckless Turtle]

Some humans can exist without experiencing physical pain, too.
I think you're using the term 'inherent' a bit too liberally.

Physical pain isn't the only form of suffering. Also, source?

 

[Gengar]

There may be forms of addiction to suffering that yield no measurable pleasure. Even assuming that all forms of addiction are rooted in pleasure, it's irrelevant for the following reason:

Let's not limit ourselves to one thing. We should expand like the universe expands. Can you name any addictions where there's no pleasure involved for the person suffering from said addiction(s)?

 

[Reckless Turtle]

Warmth and nutrition in uterus

Neither are inherent (at an individual level).

 

[Reckless Turtle]

Can you name any addictions where there's no pleasure involved for the person suffering from said addiction(s)?

You're moving goalposts. Possibly addictions to substances that only yield distressing experiences. Possibly addictions to "self harm" despite the individual never receiving validation as a result.