Bimax with flat occlusional plane. How can I achieve a taller lower third without lengthening the midface?

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Kraken
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So i have a mild deep bite and a pretty flat occlusional plane

I want around a 4-5mm taller lower third. And around 9mm projection

I got offered downgrafts and CW which would get me the desired result BUT downgrafts lengthen the midface and I already am on the longer side.

is there a way to achieve the desired result without ANY lengthening of the midface?

I have Scans and morphs which I would share in dm if someone can help me out here
 
Both CCW and linear advancement will create a taller lower third afaik unless your mandible is literally at a 90 degree angle.
 
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Both CCW and linear advancement will create a taller lower third afaik unless your mandible is literally at a 90 degree angle.
The mandible isn’t but my occlusional plane is pretty much flat. I just can’t risk a longer midface. My front is so beatiful :feelswhy:
 
what is occusal plane? how to tell what one you have?
 
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Occasional plane is the plane of your teeth biting together
how do you know if you have flat or something else? do deep bite people always have flat?
 
Bimax won't lengthen your midface. I have made several in depth comments about this in other posts.

Your lower third is not your midface. Bimax will impact your lower third.
 
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Bimax won't lengthen your midface. I have made several in depth comments about this in other posts.

Your lower third is not your midface. Bimax will impact your lower third.
Wrong. Downgrafts and cw will lengthen the midface
 
NO, it won't. I'm fucking tired of retards on here always "matter of factly" about things when they are dead wrong.

Imagine the lefort 1 cut, and downgrafting happening in relation to the entire skull. It is impacting the lower third. This is not that difficult. Your midface is above this cut. You could downgraft the maxilla fucking 2 feet and it wouldn't impact the midface.

1636240531793
 
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exactly. You are literally proving my point. Midface is the same. The difference in in the lower third. See my edited post.

Movements affecting the lower third can give the ILLUSION of a longer/shorter midface
No. His midface literally moved down lol. A taller third makes the midface appear shorter. But his midface increased in length.

I absolutely have to avoid any movement in that area
 
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exactly. You are literally proving my point. Midface is the same. The difference in in the lower third. See my edited post.

Movements affecting the lower third can give the ILLUSION of a longer/shorter midface
i think i know what you are saying: the soft tissue is the same
but you dont want gummy smile
 
NO, it won't. I'm fucking tired of retards on here always "matter of factly" about things when they are dead wrong.

Imagine the lefort 1 cut, and downgrafting happening in relation to the entire skull. It is impacting the lower third. This is not that difficult. Your midface is above this cut. You could downgraft the maxilla fucking 2 feet and it wouldn't impact the midface.

View attachment 1394726
The midface is measured to top of the lips or to the middle of the lips.

I think the middle of the lips is what we subconsciously recognize as midface and as you can see that line is noticeably lower
 
exactly. You are literally proving my point. Midface is the same. The difference in in the lower third. See my edited post.

Movements affecting the lower third can give the ILLUSION of a longer/shorter midface
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As you can see by the lines. No matter how you measure it’s noticeable longer
 
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The mandible isn’t but my occlusional plane is pretty much flat. I just can’t risk a longer midface. My front is so beatiful :feelswhy:
Just get BSSO then. It will make it slightly taller assuming your occlusal plane isn't 90 degrees. Your lower third height looked fine from your pics but iirc you were jutting/frauding it. BSSO would get it closer to that but not exactly.
 
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Just get BSSO then. It will make it slightly taller assuming your occlusal plane isn't 90 degrees. Your lower third height looked fine from your pics but iirc you were jutting/frauding it. BSSO would get it closer to that but not exactly.
Not enough projection. I will defenitly get a bimax. Only the question is how to achieve the taller lower third.
 
Just get BSSO then. It will make it slightly taller assuming your occlusal plane isn't 90 degrees. Your lower third height looked fine from your pics but iirc you were jutting/frauding it. BSSO would get it closer to that but not exactly.
Let me dm you fam
 
Not enough projection. I will defenitly get a bimax. Only the question is how to achieve the taller lower third.
Any sort of advancement will make your lower third slightly taller. Obviously CW is the best option for significant lower third height but you don't need it and any kind of lengthening it will necessarily mean an increase in height.
 
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do you have short molars? advancement and some extrusion might give you what you want
 
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a longer mid face would mean lengthening the area in between these two blue lines I've drawn.

1636241456696
 
their eyes arent even on the same level lol. move the right up to the same level and you'll see his midface hasnt changed
I didn’t make the pic. They aren’t on the same level but still ther is a clear difference even if they were leveled
 
their eyes arent even on the same level lol. move the right up to the same level and you'll see his midface hasnt changed
It clearl changed
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I didn’t make the pic. They aren’t on the same level but still ther is a clear difference even if they were leveled
difference is like 1-2mm. also he may have been tilting his head up in the before pic due to recession which would make his face look shorter, so it make very well be that there is almost zero impact on midface soft tissue

Sdfgsdfg
 
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ok, if you have thin lips/long philtrum you can do philtrum lift
 
ok, if you have thin lips/long philtrum you can do philtrum lift
I want to avoid any changes and not run into the next surgery
 
the face is a series of interdependent parts its hard to just change one thing without affecting another

this is why chad level harmony is so rare
 
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Does anyone have a solution ?
 
So i have a mild deep bite and a pretty flat occlusional plane

I want around a 4-5mm taller lower third. And around 9mm projection

I got offered downgrafts and CW which would get me the desired result BUT downgrafts lengthen the midface and I already am on the longer side.

is there a way to achieve the desired result without ANY lengthening of the midface?

I have Scans and morphs which I would share in dm if someone can help me out here
6083D9A1 6E07 48E0 BA50 1EDB4DDFD3AC

a maxillary downgraft lengthens red line not blue line. If vertical lefort movements moved your midfsce along with them teeth show would be the same. The jaws move independent of the midfsce when brought down. It is the stomion to menton distance that increases causing the perceived change in facial length , not the midfsce itself getting longer. This is why after downgraft ppl have more incisor show when smiling becaus their lips are at the same height but the teeth have come down with the lefort
 
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H

The stomion to menton distance changed u fucken idiot. Lefort can’t lengthen ur midfsce that makes zero sense. The minute diff you see is from slightly diff head posture between pics. :feelsuhh::feelsuhh::feelsuhh::feelsuhh:
Just stfu 😑 midface ratio increased
 
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its over for this forum seriously
 
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Shut the fuck up and read a craniofacial textbook and learn to interpret pictures u fucken moron
Look. The midface as you define is not the one I am talking about. I am talking about point G to point St which is a way to measure the midface ratio. It’s really important for the perceived length of the face.

When people are talking about it they mean that point gets lowered
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Look. The midface as you define is not the one I am talking about. I am talking about point G to point St which is a way to measure the midface ratio. It’s really important for the perceived length of the face.

When people are talking about it they mean that point gets lowered
View attachment 1395138
Yes I know . g point to stomion does not change with a downgraft jfl . Only stomion to menton can change. Only the most outer parts of the face can change this is like thinking a zygomatic osteotomy will change your IPD. That distance you showed is determined by your soft tissue the downgraft is not going to stretch it out because your ANS is not anchored to your nose and philtrum , it moves seperately from them, you can literally see this on X-rays wit the soft tissue profile.
 
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Yes I know . g point to stomion does not change with a downgraft jfl . Only stomion to menton can change
That would be great news for me but I can’t really believe it since in this pics it looks like it got clearly longer

Maybe not and my brain just wants me to doubt my chances of ascending. Granted the angle changed. But the simulation one also shows movement in that area

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5D65B12C 2424 4321 AAAB FD6A7587CAF4
51B68122 8804 4952 BAA9 EEC800D0747D
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BFB21683 1DCD 4838 B21A 9589D4B67911
2B404F20 1CDD 4DBF 9411 FB60882A1C64
 
View attachment 1394872
a maxillary downgraft lengthens red line not blue line. If vertical lefort movements moved your midfsce along with them teeth show would be the same. The jaws move independent of the midfsce when brought down. It is the stomion to menton distance that increases causing the perceived change in facial length , not the midfsce itself getting longer. This is why after downgraft ppl have more incisor show when smiling becaus their lips are at the same height but the teeth have come down with the lefort
Thank you. Yes. This is what I have been trying to explain but OP is stubborn as shit.

Even his own post #39 shows exactly what MIDFACE LENGTH is. lmao. And then he essentially says in the same post "im talking about this area below MIDFACE LENGTH when I mean MIDFACE"
 
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Thank you. Yes. This is what I have been trying to explain but OP is stubborn as shit.

Even his own post #39 shows exactly what MIDFACE LENGTH is. lmao. And then he essentially says in the same post "im talking about this area below MIDFACE LENGTH when I mean MIDFACE"
I was referring to the midface ratio being affected by the bimax by lowering the ST point. Not the actual midface. I’m still not completely convinced that that’s not the case
 

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