Can I do MSE+FM more than once?

[noprogressno]

Well I feel the same about this device tbh. This thing was supposed to come out 2 months ago. Plus we don't have any evidence that it is anchored to the body instead of getting support from chin and forehead anyways. My mind cannot register a protraction device that doesn't get support from chin or forehead, for protraction the device is supposed to get that support from somewhere you know?... Anyways if @AlmostPerfect were to upload some sort of prototype of the supposed device, explaining how this would be better than a normal MARPE + some sort of facemask, only then I would get my hopes up a little bit. Other than that I think this is a second trombo situation as well

I think I kind of changed my mind since I made this comment. I feel like this is not going to be a second trombo situation because somebody is legit working on this appliance and gotten the patent for it as well. Here is the proof: https://uspto.report/patent/app/20200383710
Here are the prototypes of the supposed device as well:

Tbh it kinda pisses me off that somebody got the patent for the design that "I" originally designed (I am talking about the protraction without additional support from teeth part.) And I am putting a big emphasis on this...
But in the end I might get a chance to have a normal maxilla. I would have never gotten that far to get a patent for a design like this.
On the other hand I cannot understand why a new expansion device was necessary. Adding metal on top of another metal part is going to be bulky and maybe uncomfortable as well, in summary I don't understand the need for the new expansion device design, the design we have on hand MSE/MARPE is already stable enough how is this one going to be more stable?
I hope that whatever this thing is it works out? But realistically I think either this is going to take a very, very long time to come out(much further than november, could take years to come out) or its never going to make it into market

 

[mvp2v1]

might get a chance to have a normal maxilla

I dont think you can get a normal maxilla any other way than through mewing. Mewing would not only expand the maxilla but shorten its vertical height, there is no expander that can induce such changes. Expansion is simply a tool to allow the tongue and bite to work properly so mewing can go without issue. Of course for some people at certain ages It very well may be too late to ever have a proper maxilla, and are instead relegated to frauding the maxilla via osteotomy or implants (or combined). Perhaps it can work. Obv some have gotten good results. But 1. It will never be a correct maxilla 2. The probability of going from subhuman or MTN to model any way other than mewing is close to 0.

This would explain why the vast majority of MSE expansion cases are negative (not just because of asymmetry but because of lost harmony among other reasons). Bioblock tends to not have this issue, and its probably due to it only achieving 50% maxilla expansion. So at most I imagine people are only ever getting about 5mm of bone-born expansion, which based on a chat with @Scar tissue and some other people who have done MSE seems to be what they suggest to be a good range.

Currently, i'm thinking that I will do a small (and slow) expansion with MSE of like ~5mm and then have them expand my teeth for a few more mm. @Scar tissue do you think this is a solid approach?

 

[noprogressno]

I dont think you can get a normal maxilla any other way than through mewing. Mewing would not only expand the maxilla but shorten its vertical height, there is no expander that can induce such changes. Expansion is simply a tool to allow the tongue and bite to work properly so mewing can go without issue. Of course for some people at certain ages It very well may be too late to ever have a proper maxilla, and are instead relegated to frauding the maxilla via osteotomy or implants (or combined). Perhaps it can work. Obv some have gotten good results. But 1. It will never be a correct maxilla 2. The probability of going from subhuman or MTN to model any way other than mewing is close to 0.

This would explain why the vast majority of MSE expansion cases are negative (not just because of asymmetry but because of lost harmony among other reasons). Bioblock tends to not have this issue, and its probably due to it only achieving 50% maxilla expansion. So at most I imagine people are only ever getting about 5mm of bone-born expansion, which based on a chat with @Scar tissue and some other people who have done MSE seems to be what they suggest to be a good range.

Currently, i'm thinking that I will do a small (and slow) expansion with MSE of like ~5mm and then have them expand my teeth for a few more mm. @Scar tissue do you think this is a solid approach?

Mewing does not work for adults. You cannot get a shorter midface through mewing. Thats impossible because you cannot get impaction like movement unless you shave some bone away. Mewing cannot have an effect like that. About the forward growth part as well adults cannot get a more forward maxilla with mewing alone. Even kids cannot achieve something like that through mewing alone unless the child is like 3 years old. But in theory, with protraction you can achieve ccw rotation which in turn will make your midface shorter( I would explain this further but this reply will be too long if I do). Thats theoretically though...Adult sutures are simply too resistant to open with small forces. That why MSE is so effective at opening the midpalatal suture. Because MSE can put up to 12kg of force and nearly all that force goes into actual bone. Even that isn't sometimes enough to open the midpalatal suture. Tongue can only exert forces up to 500 gm. And let me remind you, you don't usually put 500gm of force onto your maxilla. How can you expect mewing to be compared to that kind of force?
Plus as far as I understand this device isn't about transversal expansion but more about improving stability for protraction + purely bone anchored protraction(not that I think it will %100 work, i don't think this will work out tbh, but still there is no harm in someone working on such thing anyways)

 

[mvp2v1]

Mewing does not work for adults. You cannot get a shorter midface through mewing. Thats impossible because you cannot get impaction like movement unless you shave some bone away. Mewing cannot have an effect like that. About the forward growth part as well adults cannot get a more forward maxilla with mewing alone. Even kids cannot achieve something like that through mewing alone unless the child is like 3 years old. But in theory, with protraction you can achieve ccw rotation which in turn will make your midface shorter( I would explain this further but this reply will be too long if I do). Thats theoretically though...Adult sutures are simply too resistant to open with small forces. That why MSE is so effective at opening the midpalatal suture. Because MSE can put up to 12kg of force and nearly all that force goes into actual bone. Even that isn't sometimes enough to open the midpalatal suture. Tongue can only exert forces up to 500 gm. And let me remind you, you don't usually put 500gm of force onto your maxilla. How can you expect mewing to be compared to that kind of force?
Plus as far as I understand this device isn't about transversal expansion but more about improving stability for protraction + purely bone anchored protraction(not that I think it will %100 work, i don't think this will work out tbh, but still there is no harm in someone working on such thing anyways)

I respectfully disagree.

Mewing does not work for adults

On a theoretical level it should work. And the real-life anecdotes back this up. For instance this thread I have 2 adults one at 20-22, and another at 25, showing changes to their skull via X-ray.
https://looksmax.org/threads/guy-ascends-with-surgery-price.559586/#post-9134827
Furthermore as the Mew's often point out there are people with all sorts of issues around musculature and function which change the shape of the skull. Stephen Hawking for example. Then of course there are John Mew cases and his claims of 6-8mm forward growth in young adults. He personally believes that growth of the skull ends at 25 and remodeling never stops.

You cannot get a shorter midface through mewing

If you clench your teeth 24/7 your bone bellow and around your teeth will resorb, shortening the mandibles height at the level of bone. It works the same way braces do. Mewing is applying this same kind constant force, bone will resorb where relevant and will be deposited at the loading spots to maintain structural integrity of the skull.

Adult sutures are simply too resistant to open with small forces

Yes, I wonder how this situation can be improved. I've heard NCR be suggested to "open these sutures".

 

[mvp2v1]

Mewing does not work for adults. You cannot get a shorter midface through mewing. Thats impossible because you cannot get impaction like movement unless you shave some bone away. Mewing cannot have an effect like that. About the forward growth part as well adults cannot get a more forward maxilla with mewing alone. Even kids cannot achieve something like that through mewing alone unless the child is like 3 years old. But in theory, with protraction you can achieve ccw rotation which in turn will make your midface shorter( I would explain this further but this reply will be too long if I do). Thats theoretically though...Adult sutures are simply too resistant to open with small forces. That why MSE is so effective at opening the midpalatal suture. Because MSE can put up to 12kg of force and nearly all that force goes into actual bone. Even that isn't sometimes enough to open the midpalatal suture. Tongue can only exert forces up to 500 gm. And let me remind you, you don't usually put 500gm of force onto your maxilla. How can you expect mewing to be compared to that kind of force?
Plus as far as I understand this device isn't about transversal expansion but more about improving stability for protraction + purely bone anchored protraction(not that I think it will %100 work, i don't think this will work out tbh, but still there is no harm in someone working on such thing anyways)

And even if mewing did not work past 3 years old like at all. What I say about the state of the maxilla and thus face is true. If the maxilla did not develop as it should have, there is no current method to fix it unfortunatly.

 

[noprogressno]

I respectfully disagree.

On a theoretical level it should work. And the real-life anecdotes back this up. For instance this thread I have 2 adults one at 20-22, and another at 25, showing changes to their skull via X-ray.
https://looksmax.org/threads/guy-ascends-with-surgery-price.559586/#post-9134827
Furthermore as the Mew's often point out there are people with all sorts of issues around musculature and function which change the shape of the skull. Stephen Hawking for example. Then of course there are John Mew cases and his claims of 6-8mm forward growth in young adults. He personally believes that growth of the skull ends at 25 and remodeling never stops.

If you clench your teeth 24/7 your bone bellow and around your teeth will resorb, shortening the mandibles height at the level of bone. It works the same way braces do. Mewing is applying this same kind constant force, bone will resorb where relevant and will be deposited at the loading spots to maintain structural integrity of the skull.

Yes, I wonder how this situation can be improved. I've heard NCR be suggested to "open these sutures".

If mewing would work, rest assured we would be seeing millions of results online by far now. The link you provided I am definetely sure is either fillers (or implants but I don't think so). Plus he is bodybuilding as well which comes with a lower body fat, so his facial features are obviously going to get more pronounced. Virtually all the other results I have seen so far is either light change or angle change or better photo angle or other false results.
Personally I have been mewing since 15. And I am not only talking about just breathing from your nose 24/7 and putting your tongue on your palate. I am talking about fixing your posture issues, chintucking, lots of chewing, tongue chewing as well, neck posture... I even tried hard mewing for a long while. I am 22 now. Thats a lot time. You now what results I have seen aesthetic wise? Nothing. Even worse IMO my face has gotten worse and mewing did not stop it from getting worse
But of course I have seen a lot of benefits. I used to have chronic pharyngitis all year alone due to mouthbreating. Now I don't have that condition at all. I also used to have worse postnasal drip but I think it has gotten better since I started. So in summary all the benefits I have ever gotten from mewing is only health related. Not aesthetic wise. 7 years is a lot of time to try mewing trust me. Try 7 years of dedicated mewing just to gain nothing aesthetic wise if your determination allows it. But what you'll find in the end of all that dedication is going to be disappointment, I can assure you that.

 

[mvp2v1]

If mewing would work, rest assured we would be seeing millions of results online by far now. The link you provided I am definetely sure is either fillers (or implants but I don't think so). Plus he is bodybuilding as well which comes with a lower body fat, so his facial features are obviously going to get more pronounced. Virtually all the other results I have seen so far is either light change or angle change or better photo angle or other false results.

Okay, but you did not comment on any of the X-rays.

But of course I have seen a lot of benefits. I used to have chronic pharyngitis all year alone due to mouthbreating. Now I don't have that condition at all. I also used to have worse postnasal drip but I think it has gotten better since I started. So in summary all the benefits I have ever gotten from mewing is only health related. Not aesthetic wise. 7 years is a lot of time to try mewing trust me. Try 7 years of dedicated mewing just to gain nothing aesthetic wise if your determination allows it. But what you'll find in the end of all that dedication is going to be disappointment, I can assure you that.

Interesting. I have been mewing for 1 year now. No noticeable change. But I also don't think I have been mewing. And I don't want to gaslight or doubt your experience but I just dont think its possible for mewing to have had no effect on your skull (if you were doing it right). It's like saying you went for braces to straighten your teeth and your teeth did not change at all. If this happens the ortho is doing something wrong. Like I said mewing works the same way.
Edit: Also you seem to suggest that if instead of mewing you started mouthbreathing it would have had no aesthetic effect.

I'm currently in the process of putting all the mewing memes to the test and will posting about it so I will see.

Like I said, my only explanation for your lack of facial change from mewing would be that you were not mewing. Its very easy to think you are and think you have proper posture but constantly relapse, especially during sleep which is when bone remodeling is at its highest.

Mewing is not easy

 

[noprogressno]

And even if mewing did not work past 3 years old like at all. What I say about the state of the maxilla and thus face is true. If the maxilla did not develop as it should have, there is no current method to fix it unfortunatly.

No kid thats 3 years old is going to remember to put their tongue onto their palate and continueusly do that throughout the if they are already experiencing the effects of mouthbreating and having issues with breathing already. No kid is going to mew if they have a malloclusion issue either. In that case the best option would be palate expansion and the use of bollard plates for growth modification,which does not require a lot of patient complience but mostly parent supervision, otherwise waiting for kid to get to an age where the kid learns the importance of all these things will be too late to interfere
Yes there is no current non-surgical method to fix an adult deficient maxilla. It is how it is. Best option rn is to get bimax which does not adress all the issues of the maxilla, just a part of it. That doesn't mean that this is never going to be achieved however. It just means that the current medical technology available and the current research that has been done wasn't able to find a way to achieve that. As things develop, one day it might become achieveable

 

[mvp2v1]

No kid thats 3 years old is going to remember to put their tongue onto their palate and continueusly do that throughout the if they are already experiencing the effects of mouthbreating and having issues with breathing already. No kid is going to mew if they have a malloclusion issue either. In that case the best option would be palate expansion and the use of bollard plates for growth modification,which does not require a lot of patient complience but mostly parent supervision, otherwise waiting for kid to get to an age where the kid learns the importance of all these things will be too late to interfere
Yes there is no current non-surgical method to fix an adult deficient maxilla. It is how it is. Best option rn is to get bimax which does not adress all the issues of the maxilla, just a part of it. That doesn't mean that this is never going to be achieved however. It just means that the current medical technology available and the current research that has been done wasn't able to find a way to achieve that. As things develop, one day it might become achieveable

Neuralink Hard Mewing App

100% unironically this would be the wholly grail.

"Yes there is no current non-surgical method to fix an adult deficient maxilla. It is how it is. Best option rn is to get bimax which does not adress all the issues of the maxilla, just a part of it"

Yes this is why you cant become true chad from bimax. Because chad developed properly, and like you mention it only "fixes" one issue. Really what it is, is deforming your maxilla even more than it was already. Quite a brutal and primitive procedure that many do as a cope, because as you mention there is not real solution.

 

[noprogressno]

Okay, but you did not comment on any of the X-rays.

Interesting. I have been mewing for 1 year now. No noticeable change. But I also don't think I have been mewing. And I don't want to gaslight or doubt your experience but I just dont think its possible for mewing to have had no effect on your skull (if you were doing it right). It's like saying you went for braces to straighten your teeth and your teeth did not change at all. If this happens the ortho is doing something wrong. Like I said mewing works the same way.
Edit: Also you seem to suggest that if instead of mewing you started mouthbreathing it would have had no aesthetic effect.

I'm currently in the process of putting all the mewing memes to the test and will posting about it so I will see.

Like I said, my only explanation for your lack of facial change from mewing would be that you were not mewing. Its very easy to think you are and think you have proper posture but constantly relapse, especially during sleep which is when bone remodeling is at its highest.

Mewing is not easy

I do still practice mewing. For health related reasons though. Chronic pharyngitis is not an easy thing to go through all day. I am also %100 percent sure that I mew throughout the night as well,because when I wake up my mouth is closed with a proper lip seal, and my tongue is at my palate. I also have a proper evidence because If I did not mew throughout my sleep, just at the morning of 1 night of mouthbreathing I would have a very dry mouth as well(I experienced all these when I first started mewing, it is not easy to learn how to mew thoughout your sleep, it takes a lot of time). And after a few weeks of mouthbreathing my chronic pharyngitis would be back if that was the case.

 

[noprogressno]

Neuralink Hard Mewing App

100% unironically this would be the wholly grail.

"Yes there is no current non-surgical method to fix an adult deficient maxilla. It is how it is. Best option rn is to get bimax which does not adress all the issues of the maxilla, just a part of it"

Yes this is why you cant become true chad from bimax. Because chad developed properly, and like you mention it only "fixes" one issue. Really what it is, is deforming your maxilla even more than it was already. Quite a brutal and primitive procedure that many do as a cope, because as you mention there is not real solution.

Who says I want to become a chad. Not being a birdcel is enough for me, but of course human nature is greedy, I want more if I can have the chance( I have to save up a lot of money until surgery anyways, so there is no harm in trying the non-surgical methods in the meanwhile, even if it does not bring me anything )

 

[mvp2v1]

Okay, but you did not comment on any of the X-rays.

I do still practice mewing. For health related reasons though. Chronic pharyngitis is not an easy thing to go through all day. I am also %100 percent sure that I mew throughout the night as well,because when I wake up my mouth is closed with a proper lip seal, and my tongue is at my palate. I also have a proper evidence because If I did not mew throughout my sleep, just at the morning of 1 night of mouthbreathing I would have a very dry mouth as well(I experienced all these when I first started mewing, it is not easy to learn how to mew thoughout your sleep, it takes a lot of time). And after a few weeks of mouthbreathing my chronic pharyngitis would be back if that was the case.

I'm curious what you think about the Xrays provided for the 2 adults, and the 1 child? (the looksmax post link has the videos) Here

 

[noprogressno]

I'm curious what you think about the Xrays provided for the 2 adults, and the 1 child? (the looksmax post link has the videos) Here

The first guy was not too bad looking to start with. By chewing a lot he probably has strenghten his jaw muscles and IMO he is jutting a little bit as well(which in my opinion is not a too bad thing to do unless you are doing it excesivelly)which explains more prominent chin.But by no means this is a skeletal result. His maxilla and mandible bone are just the same as before. His nose is the same, which should normally be an indicator or any change in the maxilla etc. His skin color is different and his skin overall looks better, his hair looks better as well... Which makes his face much more harmonous in total.
Second guy with the x-rays does not have any change. At all. His photos are completely frauded, lighting is different, he is tilting his head, he is smiling in the second photo... To many things to count. His eyes are still very tilted, very asymmetrical, his face is still very asymmetrical as well. Now coming to his x-rays...

Notice how the lines I draw are at a different angle? That means his head angle are not the same. It might go unnoticed to the untrained eye but thats the first thing I saw right away so I didn't even feel the need to comment about this, because in summary its just another form of fraud. Go to photoshop or another app, crop all of the neck away and align his forehead in the second photo with the one in the first photo. You will see that there is no change at all(I am not gonna do that because I don't have the time to waste on such a thing rn, but if you are too curious you can do it yourself, its not that hard to do)
The 3rd photo is a nice example of how dental changes can bring a face to a good harmony. Not bad at all. Not all overbites or underbites are skeletal, some of them can be completely dental and some of them can be mostly dental plus a little skeletal. Unless malloclusion is conpletely skeletal or mostly skeletal, most of the time dental changes can bring very harmonious results. I haven't watched the whole video but I can bet that his lower teeth did not have the proper ilt that normal teeth should have. Normal teeth are supposed to be tilted a little bit forwards. Not too much just a little. Sometimes people with overbite can have completely upwards tilted teeth or they might even be tilted backwards sometimes. In that case bringing them to proper alignment can bring nice results. I you had seen my other posts you would know that I already advised to get braces to some people with overbites who were looking for non surgical advice here. Everyone else were saying that I was wrong and this is a completely skeletal case but I never thought so. I can find that post if you want me to. By the way dr aise cemile cansız has great examples of what I am mentioning on her instagram.
But by no means this is a skeletal result as well, first and the 3rd one are dental and the 2nd one is just a fraud

 

[mvp2v1]

The first guy was not too bad looking to start with. By chewing a lot he probably has strenghten his jaw muscles and IMO he is jutting a little bit as well(which in my opinion is not a too bad thing to do unless you are doing it excesivelly)which explains more prominent chin.But by no means this is a skeletal result. His maxilla and mandible bone are just the same as before. His nose is the same, which should normally be an indicator or any change in the maxilla etc. His skin color is different and his skin overall looks better, his hair looks better as well... Which makes his face much more harmonous in total.

I linked the specific part of the video where the latino shows the skeletal changes from mewing, you can see his wisdom teeth started to come in properly. The only explanation here would be that his video is a fraud and he is using someone else's X-ray of or photoshopping it, which I dont think he is.

Now coming to his x-rays...

All 3 videos include Xrays. This was the only one which included them in the thumbnail. I never actualy looked at this americans video, I just took a look in Adobe XD (the program not the emote), indeed I cannot discern any change. So I think your right about this video, if there was a change it cannot be seen clearly in this ceph. Furthermore his pictures are horribly frauded:

As you can see he is tilting his head up. So I'll comment on the other thread that this guy's results should either be analyzed more carefully or disregarded.

The 3rd photo

Not your fault, I did not make it clear I suppose that all videos include X-ray changes. The middle video of the 25 year old I did not actualy look at closely ever. The other two howver I have. And They show clear X-ray change.

Starting at 14 this kid got Orthotropic treatment. Here are his X-rays (timestamped) and I'm also including this pic from the video showing a change in his anti-gonial notch (No way to fraud this)

 

[noprogressno]

I linked the specific part of the video where the latino shows the skeletal changes from mewing, you can see his wisdom teeth started to come in properly. The only explanation here would be that his video is a fraud and he is using someone else's X-ray of or photoshopping it, which I dont think he is.


All 3 videos include Xrays. This was the only one which included them in the thumbnail. I never actualy looked at this americans video, I just took a look in Adobe XD (the program not the emote), indeed I cannot discern any change. So I think your right about this video, if there was a change it cannot be seen clearly in this ceph. Furthermore his pictures are horribly frauded:

View attachment 1850320 As you can see he is tilting his head up. So I'll comment on the other thread that this guy's results should either be analyzed more carefully or disregarded.


Not your fault, I did not make it clear I suppose that all videos include X-ray changes. The middle video of the 25 year old I did not actualy look at closely ever. The other two howver I have. And They show clear X-ray change.

View attachment 1850322 Starting at 14 this kid got Orthotropic treatment. Here are his X-rays (timestamped) and I'm also including this pic from the video showing a change in his anti-gonial notch (No way to fraud this)

His wisdom teeth started to come in properly? It was already coming in properly, it was coming upwards, it was not impacted so it was only a matter of time before it started erupting. The spesific part of the video you linked does not show his forehead in the x-ray because he zoomed in. I am very sure that such a small change is from, again head tilting. If you find me a photo of his that shows his whole head, then I will look at that again.

Now coming to the 14 year old kid. He is 14 years old. 14. He is just a kid. His case could be a combination of: dental movement + actual skeletal change + changing the tilt of his upper incisors to be at a more neutral position + changing the tilt of lower upper teeth to be at a more forwards tilted position + condylar remodelling + glenoid fossa remodelling + palatal expansion(even toothborne palatal expansion causes skeletal effects in this age group) + maybe he even used lower jaw expander as well. In summary I can guarantee you he %100 percent got some sort of treatment which resulted in "growth guidance and bone remodelling" and this is not just the result of mewing alone. Mewing wouldn't do anything for him at his age. Now whatever treatment he got, I can tell you that an adult cannot get this sort of effect through some sort of orthodontic treatment. Also I can guarantee you that his chances are not conpletely skeletal as well. But after you become an adult its too late to interfere with the mandible just with orthodontic work.
Now coming to the other issue. If he had maxillary deficiency and he wanted to get some sort of treatment for that, even at his age nothing could be changed with orthodontics/mewing/whatever that comes to mind. Unless he got some sort of skeletal anchored treatment of course(even that cannot guarantee a change in that area though)
To summarize what I am saying is that the only thing that works for maxillary deficiency once someone becomes an adult, is trauma induced healing(which includes surgeries, osteotomies, distraction osteogenesis, and even MARPE/MSE is trauma induced healing). Other than that you cannot change an adults facial bone structure without some sort of trauma induced healing