Destroying TheBuffoon "God doesn't exist trust me bro" MEGATHREAD

[MaghrebGator]

As far as the studies claiming humans have "instinctual" belief in a god that can read their brain, I'd like to see proof that those beliefs weren't created by culture.

You would have to take a large sample size of children that have never been told about the concept of "god", and then ask them. You would also have to ask them in a way that isn't a leading question, suggesting the concept.

Otherwise the study is invalid.

Finally a genuine and decent comment

Yes, it's a great question. The study was done in several countries and accross different cultures (That's why the high budget) including a great chunk of it in Japan which is mainly an atheist country and the results were similar on all of them

"They directed an international body of researchers conducting studies in 20 different countries that represented both traditionally religious and atheist societies"

Experiments involving adults, conducted by Jing Zhu from Tsinghua University (China), and Natalie Emmons and Jesse Bering from The Queen's University, Belfast, suggest that people across many different cultures instinctively believe that some part of their mind, soul or spirit lives on after-death.

To add to the fact that the study was not biased in favour of religion, from an interview the Project Director Dr Justin Barrett, from the University of Oxford's Centre for Anthropology and Mind, said: 'This project does not set out to prove god or gods exist. Just because we find it easier to think in a particular way does not mean that it is true in fact.

The only reason i make this argument as a muslim is because it is the only religion among the big ones that makes a great deal about the concept of Fitrah (Natural Inclination), which is in a way what this study is about indirectly

Project Co-Director Professor Roger Trigg, from the University of Oxford's Ian Ramsey Centre, said: 'This project suggests that religion is not just something for a peculiar few to do on Sundays instead of playing golf. We have gathered a body of evidence that suggests that religion is a common fact of human nature across different societies. This suggests that attempts to suppress religion are likely to be short-lived as human thought seems to be rooted to religious concepts, such as the existence of supernatural agents or gods, and the possibility of an afterlife or pre-life.'

Dr Barrett said: “The [students’] reactions nicely illustrate the fact that these findings – that religion is natural in some sense – can be interpreted through the lenses of various worldviews, religious or not. They only tell us how our minds naturally work and not whether any given religious beliefs are true or false. That said, many philosophical systems regard people as justified in giving their natural intuitions the benefit of the doubt. If that is right, then we shouldn’t say that people are irrational to hold religious beliefs if they haven’t managed to marshal an air-tight evidential proof for them. Rather we should say that people are rationally justified in holding their religious beliefs until sufficient evidence arises to upset them.”

 

[noodlelover]

The only reason i make this argument as a muslim is because it is the only religion among the big ones that makes a great deal about the concept of Fitrah (Natural Inclination), which is in a way what this study is about indirectly

A year or two ago, two Jehovah witness college kids came to my door to tell me about their belief system. I asked them "Why do you believe this is the correct belief system?" and they essentially gave the same argument "Because God put the belief that this is the one true religion in us. Our belief is proof that our belief is true."

"Belief is proof that the thing we believe is true.", might not be explicit in every believe system, but it is a common believe that many people have, to justify their believe in things.

Project Co-Director Professor Roger Trigg, from the University of Oxford's Ian Ramsey Centre, said: 'This project suggests that religion is not just something for a peculiar few to do on Sundays instead of playing golf. We have gathered a body of evidence that suggests that religion is a common fact of human nature across different societies. This suggests that attempts to suppress religion are likely to be short-lived as human thought seems to be rooted to religious concepts, such as the existence of supernatural agents or gods, and the possibility of an afterlife or pre-life.'

China is very superstitious. Belief in Ghosts, Bad-Luck, Good-Luck, Zodiac Signs, Astrology, Chi, Fen Shui, are all common Chinese beliefs.

Beliefs are viral, like viruses.

The Only way you can mitigate superstition is to educate people will sufficient logical defenses. For example:

1 - Avoid unfalsifiable beliefs. If your belief system does not make any predictions about the world that are testable, then you shouldn't put much faith in it. If you can explain away "Any" events with a belief system, then that belief system is unfalsifiable.

2 - Make your beliefs pay rent in predicting the future - Belief systems should make predictions about the future. Those predictions should be clearly true or false. If not, then the belief system is unfalsifiable, and you shouldn't put much faith in it.

That said, many philosophical systems regard people as justified in giving their natural intuitions the benefit of the doubt.

Intuition is the subconscious's ability to solve problems.

About 95% of our brain activity is subconscious, so solutions will will arise from the subconscious if we listen.

However, the subconscious can be tricked. For example, show only news stories to some one about dogs attacking and killing people, and that person will developed a subconscious fear of dogs, even though most dogs are friendly.

Another example, reinforce a religious belief system with weekly attendance at church or mosque, and weekly reading of the bible or Quran, or Torah and you are reinforcing those stories constantly into the subconscious.

Movies, stories, rumors, videos, written text, can all effect the subconscious, and what we feel deeply is true. The media we consume shapes our subconscious beliefs, that give rise to deep feelings about what is or is not true.

When my subconscious tells me something, I explore that, and look deeply for the clues that my subconscious has found to give me that belief, and then let my logical brain double check those clues, looking for biases, such as survivorship bias. Reading about biases, can really clarify your thinking.

List of cognitive biases - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Deleted member 46941]

Dnr + kys

 

[JohnDoe]

Excellent thread. Atheism is for midwits and abused dogs who take out their anger on God. It's no surprise that western countries and its people who are moving away from God and more into degeneracy are going lower and lower and being replaced by god-fearing ethnics who will pave the way forward to a better future. America was built by god-fearing men and now look at it. Absolute joke of a country, full of degeneracy because the people are godless materialists. China is an atheistic commie hellhole.

You don’t know where you are heading, you THINK you know where you are heading, there is a difference. And it’s objectively wrong because I studied Islam and it’s wrong. Not that u will ever admit that bcuz u don’t care about the truth but still

So when it comes to people who believe in Islam, we "THINK" but you know for certain huh? what a hypocrite. You THINK you know that Islam is wrong but you cannot be certain or objectively right. That's just your opinion. A lot of people have studied Islam, you aren't special. You're rjust a self-hating paki who thinks he's smarter than he really is.

 

[Thebuffdon690]

Excellent thread. Atheism is for midwits and abused dogs who take out their anger on God. It's no surprise that western countries and its people who are moving away from God and more into degeneracy are going lower and lower and being replaced by god-fearing ethnics who will pave the way forward to a better future. America was built by god-fearing men and now look at it. Absolute joke of a country, full of degeneracy because the people are godless materialists. China is an atheistic commie hellhole.

So when it comes to people who believe in Islam, we "THINK" but you know for certain huh? what a hypocrite. You THINK you know that Islam is wrong but you cannot be certain or objectively right. That's just your opinion. A lot of people have studied Islam, you aren't special. You're rjust a self-hating paki who thinks he's smarter than he really is.

Nigga I studied Islam for years before leaving it. Therefore I know it’s objectively wrong. Another fucking moronic post by some dimwit Muslim who is trying to do damage control. Not even worth wasting my time over

 

[coispet]

Oh shit he’s a Muslim I didn’t even realise. Yeh I don’t need to take this shit seriously now lmao. L thread

he didn’t say “oh shit he’s an abused dog athiest with no moral compass in life and is going down a path of failure, i didn’t even realise, yeah i don’t need to take this shit seriously now lmao. L thread” to your thread?

this is just a deflection so you don’t read an original thread that breaks down your schmonsense nonsense

 

[Thebuffdon690]

he didn’t say “oh shit he’s an abused dog christian with no moral compass in life and is going down a path of failure, i didn’t even realise, yeah i don’t need to take this shit seriously now lmao. L thread” to your thread?

this is just a deflection so you don’t read an original thread that breaks down your schmonsense nonsense

I read the thread and it’s absolute dogshit. Dm me any part and I’ll debate you on it. Not worth my time making a whole response to. I would be retarded to do such a thing

 

[coispet]

I read the thread and it’s absolute dogshit. Dm me any part and I’ll debate you on it. Not worth my time making a whole response to. I would be retarded to do such a thing

no, you just would be ridiculed, you are still deflecting, i don’t debate people because i don’t know how to, i’ll just start seething since i’m biased to my own religion and throw a bunch of ad hominems at you, write a thread, or get fucked, he has the final word right now

 

[JohnDoe]

Nigga I studied Islam for years before leaving it. Therefore I know it’s objectively wrong. Another fucking moronic post by some dimwit Muslim who is trying to do damage control. Not even worth wasting my time over

Nigga i studied Islam a lot, so did every muslim who went to the mosque from an early age which is like 90% of muslim kids. We did not arrive at the same conclusion as you. "Objectively" get the fuck outta here you retard. Anything you believe in is objective but anything we believe is subjective? I know your kind very well, you have no real arguments, keep your shit self-hating opinions to yourself.

 

[Thebuffdon690]

no, you just would be ridiculed, you are still deflecting, i don’t debate people because i don’t know how to, i’ll just start seething since i’m biased to my own religion and throw a bunch of ad hominems at you, write a thread, or get fucked, he has the final word right now

Yeh I challenge you then, if you reject the challenge your a little bitch like I predicted

 

[coispet]

Yeh I challenge you then, if you reject the challenge your a little bitch like I predicted

i literally just told your illiterate brain i don’t know how to debate

i’ll just brain fart random shit and then call you an athiest dog for saying something against my religion, you deflected again by ignoring my entire comment

write a thread or get fucked, otherwise you’re the bitch

 

[Thebuffdon690]

Nigga i studied Islam a lot, so did every muslim who went to the mosque from an early age which is like 90% of muslim kids. We did not arrive at the same conclusion as you. "Objectively" get the fuck outta here you retard. Anything you believe in is objective but anything we believe is subjective? I know your kind very well, you have no real arguments, keep your shit self-hating opinions to yourself.

This is literally a response to my thread you pussy, I’m staying in here lmao. And yeh most Muslims don’t learn the religion but the ones that do only learn the good parts and leave out the bad bits cuz they are forced to by the scholars. And you like to believe I have no real arguments because it keeps you coping well, but you would be surprised

 

[Thebuffdon690]

i literally just told your illiterate brain i don’t know how to debate

i’ll just brain fart random shit and then call you an athiest dog for saying something against my religion, you deflected again by ignoring my entire comment

write a thread or get fucked, otherwise you’re the bitch

I did write a thread and I was greeted by this dogshit response, so get fucked

 

[coispet]

I did write a thread and I was greeted by this dogshit response, so get fucked

your ability to read is as obvious as your life’s purpose

how am i getting the fucked, i didn’t even write the thread, although i agree with the thread, im a bystander instigating you to make another thread so i can see YOU get fucked

 

[Thebuffdon690]

your ability to read is as obvious as your life’s purpose

how am i getting the fucked, i didn’t even write the thread, although i agree with the thread, im a bystander instigating you to make another thread so i can see YOU get fucked

Yeh I’m definitely gonna waste my time writing a response when it doesn’t even warrant a response. If you’re not gonna debate me then get fucked not wasting. Y time with you

 

[coispet]

Yeh I’m definitely gonna waste my time writing a response when it doesn’t even warrant a response. If you’re not gonna debate me then get fucked not wasting. Y time with you

i said three times now, i don’t want to debate you, BECAUSE I DONT KNOW HOW TO!!!

if this high effort thread doesn’t warrant a response what makes you think debating a newbie like me would do for you? are you that obsessed with me

 

[JohnDoe]

This is literally a response to my thread you pussy, I’m staying in here lmao. And yeh most Muslims don’t learn the religion but the ones that do only learn the good parts and leave out the bad bits cuz they are forced to by the scholars. And you like to believe I have no real arguments because it keeps you coping well, but you would be surprised

Nice cope, we go over everything, stop making shit up. You are coping so fucking hard, muh they only learn the good parts or they don't learn it at all. No you retard we are taught everything, i know this for a fact because i went through it. You have no real arguments because any "argument" that you can think of has already been said by some midwit atheist and has been responded to by many scholars who are extremely knowledgeable about Islam. Whether you choose to cope and not accept that answer is not the concern of any muslim.

 

[Thebuffdon690]

i said three times now, i don’t want to debate you, BECAUSE I DONT KNOW HOW TO!!!

if this high effort thread doesn’t warrant a response what makes you think debating a newbie like me would do for you? are you that obsessed with me

Why are you even talking then.

 

[coispet]

Why are you even talking then.

because you’re a pussy that won’t respond to a thread you haven’t even read yet

 

[Thebuffdon690]

Nice cope, we go over everything, stop making shit up. You are coping so fucking hard, muh they only learn the good parts or they don't learn it at all. No you retard we are taught everything, i know this for a fact because i went through it. You have no real arguments because any "argument" that you can think of has already been said by some midwit atheist and has been responded to by many scholars who are extremely knowledgeable about Islam. Whether you choose to cope and not accept that answer is not the concern of any muslim.

Being knowledgeable about Islam has nothing to do with whether the argument is wrong or not. Lmao obviously scholars will be biased towards the religion and therefore either cherry pick or just twist the argument around. I have debated plenty of scholars I know how they work. And I know for a fact your ignorant because you are already assuming you are right and not coming from an intellectually honest position therfore this isn’t worth my time. I advise you to just not respond to this as it’s getting us nowhere

 

[Thebuffdon690]

because you’re a pussy that won’t respond to a thread you haven’t even read yet

I did read it. Idk why you guys are mentioning it like a week after it’s released dumbasses

 

[JohnDoe]

Being knowledgeable about Islam has nothing to do with whether the argument is wrong or not. Lmao obviously scholars will be biased towards the religion and therefore either cherry pick or just twist the argument around. I have debated plenty of scholars I know how they work. And I know for a fact your ignorant because you are already assuming you are right and not coming from an intellectually honest position therfore this isn’t worth my time. I advise you to just not respond to this as it’s getting us nowhere

Who are you to say whether the argument is wrong or not? this is your problem, anything you say you believe is objectively correct, but why is it correct? Scholars are not biased, they don't make things up, they backup everything they say, nor do they twist the argument or any other nonsense. No point talking to you, you are completely delusional and anyone who doesn't believe in your views is wrong but somehow your retarded nonsensical thinking is objectively correct. You have no argument, just your opinion. You are batshit insane.

 

[Thebuffdon690]

Who are you to say whether the argument is wrong or not? this is your problem, anything you say you believe is objectively correct, but why is it correct? Scholars are not biased, they don't make things up, they backup everything they say, nor do they twist the argument or any other nonsense. No point talking to you, you are completely delusional and anyone who doesn't believe in your views is wrong but somehow your retarded nonsensical thinking is objectively correct. You have no argument, just your opinion. You are batshit insane.

Dumbest thing I’ve ever read lmao. Yeh just don’t respond

 

[JohnDoe]

Dumbest thing I’ve ever read lmao. Yeh just don’t respond

midwit zoomer, go be retarded elsewhere

 

[Thebuffdon690]

midwit zoomer, go be retarded elsewhere

You’re still responding lmao

 

[iblamechico]

As far as the studies claiming humans have "instinctual" belief in a god that can read their brain, I'd like to see proof that those beliefs weren't created by culture.

You would have to take a large sample size of children that have never been told about the concept of "god", and then ask them. You would also have to ask them in a way that isn't a leading question, suggesting the concept.

Otherwise the study is invalid.

That's what I thought. "Afterlife", "soul", "body and mind" are all such a common concept in literally every fucking culture on earth that I actually have a hard time figuring out wtf is the point of this study. You can literally just look around or read some books. Shit's so pointless to the point that I'm not sure if all the money poured really went to research or just their pockets lmao.

 

[Darktriad16]

do u have sum proof for ur religion to debate or ur just coming here to talk shit for nun?

 

[looks>books]

Jesus is the way man, all arrows point to him

 

[Klasik616]

Idk if God exists, he doesn't care about humanity.

Also dnr

 

[Deleted member 46979]

atheism is objectively inferior when it comes to morality and building a stable civilization. you have no foundation for your moral claims in a relativistic materialistic worldview. this is why high iq atheists become christian atheist nihilists.

religion makes people happier at the expense of sentience. although when your sentience is extremely high, you come back to the unknowable nature of reality and pascal's wager.

in short, belief in religion doesn't hurt society. the opposite does. therefore, in the interest of improving the human condition and lowering suffering, religion is still vastly superior to the alternatives

 

[Thebuffdon690]

atheism is objectively inferior when it comes to morality and building a stable civilization. you have no foundation for your moral claims in a relativistic materialistic worldview. this is why high iq atheists become christian atheist nihilists.

religion makes people happier at the expense of sentience. although when your sentience is extremely high, you come back to the unknowable nature of reality and pascal's wager.

in short, belief in religion doesn't hurt society. the opposite does. therefore, in the interest of improving the human condition and lowering suffering, religion is still vastly superior to the alternatives

Biggest load of bull crap propaganda I’ve ever read lmao @Darktriad16

 

[noodlelover]

atheism is objectively inferior when it comes to morality and building a stable civilization.

Religion has been a unifying force for civilizations in the past.

But now it requires rejection of a large body of scientific progress, and our understanding of the world. It makes humans less rational in their thinking, because it requires irrationality to believe it.

This is not a trait of a civilization that will dominate the next hundred years.

you have no foundation for your moral claims in a relativistic materialistic worldview. this is why high iq atheists become christian atheist nihilists.

Morality is a cluster evolved impulses that helped us better cooperate in large groups, in our evolutionary past. It's a joke to think it's anything other than that.

As atheism has been increasing, major crimes such as murder and theft have been decreasing. This is because of improved policing, and improved evidence (Video, DNA, etc.). This proves you don't need religion to reduce crime. You need to put law breaking people in jail.

religion makes people happier at the expense of sentience.

Drugs make people happy. There's healthier alternatives to happiness that don't promote the proliferation of irrationality, and superstitious thinking.

although when your sentience is extremely high, you come back to the unknowable nature of reality and pascal's wager.

This is an appeal to emotion. It's the type of illogical superstitious thinking that dominated most of the civilizations that have been conquered, raped, and pillaged for resources, throughout history.

 

[Thebuffdon690]

Religion has been a unifying force for civilizations in the past.

But now it requires rejection of a large body of scientific progress, and our understanding of the world. It makes humans less rational in their thinking, because it requires irrationality to believe it.

This is not a trait of a civilization that will dominate the next hundred years.

Morality is a cluster evolved impulses that helped us better cooperate in large groups, in our evolutionary past. It's a joke to think it's anything other than that.

As atheism has been increasing, major crimes such as murder and theft have been decreasing. This is because of improved policing, and improved evidence (Video, DNA, etc.). This proves you don't need religion to reduce crime. You need to put law breaking people in jail.


Drugs make people happy. There's healthier alternatives to happiness that don't promote the proliferation of irrationality, and superstitious thinking.


This is an appeal to emotion. It's the type of illogical superstitious thinking that dominated most of the civilizations that have been conquered, raped, and pillaged for resources, throughout history.

Amazing

 

[MaghrebGator]

A year or two ago, two Jehovah witness college kids came to my door to tell me about their belief system. I asked them "Why do you believe this is the correct belief system?" and they essentially gave the same argument "Because God put the belief that this is the one true religion in us. Our belief is proof that our belief is true."

I don't agree with this logic. I believe we are wired to easily believe in God but a religion must have convincing proof (Which i believe Islam does more than any other religion by far, but this is for another more complex thread Insha Allah)

My argument is that Islam is the only religion that gets deep into this concept and explains it.

"Belief is proof that the thing we believe is true.", might not be explicit in every believe system, but it is a common believe that many people have, to justify their believe in things.

Yes, you are 100%. Allah says (Interpretation of the meaning): 'When they are told, “Come to what Allah has revealed, and to the messenger,” they say, “What we found our parents doing is sufficient for us.” What if their parents knew nothing, and were not guided?'

China is very superstitious. Belief in Ghosts, Bad-Luck, Good-Luck, Zodiac Signs, Astrology, Chi, Fen Shui, are all common Chinese beliefs.

But this is part of what we mentioned ain't it? What i want to say is that if anything this proves that the study was right, and that we are wired to believe in these sort of things independently of cultures. I mean, ghosts (Jinns, spirits, you name it) are cross cultural just like belief in God, belief in luck (Like heck, luck is a word that exists in almost every language) and same with Astrology. From China to America, even when they never held contact, yet they have many of these commonalities.

China nowadays is a politically atheist country, Japan is a majoritarily atheist country. They don't raise their children like in other places to believe from square 1 in a religion, yet somehow they still respond positively to these kinds of beliefs naturally. Which would make square one for the human being to believe in those sort of matters, and not the contrary.

Beliefs are viral, like viruses.

The Only way you can mitigate superstition is to educate people will sufficient logical defenses.

First, i agree that superstition needs to be mitigated in favour of logical belief with proof. However, my argument is that atheistic belief has an even bigger burden of proof than religions because not only it is also a belief, but one that according to those studies challenges the human innate predisposition amd default state.

For example:

1 - Avoid unfalsifiable beliefs. If your belief system does not make any predictions about the world that are testable, then you shouldn't put much faith in it. If you can explain away "Any" events with a belief system, then that belief system is unfalsifiable.

2 - Make your beliefs pay rent in predicting the future - Belief systems should make predictions about the future. Those predictions should be clearly true or false. If not, then the belief system is unfalsifiable, and you shouldn't put much faith in it.

I completely agree on this.

Intuition is the subconscious's ability to solve problems.

About 95% of our brain activity is subconscious, so solutions will will arise from the subconscious if we listen.

However, the subconscious can be tricked. For example, show only news stories to some one about dogs attacking and killing people, and that person will developed a subconscious fear of dogs, even though most dogs are friendly.

Another example, reinforce a religious belief system with weekly attendance at church or mosque, and weekly reading of the bible or Quran, or Torah and you are reinforcing those stories constantly into the subconscious.

Movies, stories, rumors, videos, written text, can all effect the subconscious, and what we feel deeply is true. The media we consume shapes our subconscious beliefs, that give rise to deep feelings about what is or is not true.

When my subconscious tells me something, I explore that, and look deeply for the clues that my subconscious has found to give me that belief, and then let my logical brain double check those clues, looking for biases, such as survivorship bias. Reading about biases, can really clarify your thinking.

I also agree with this. We are heavily influenced by our people and environment, independently of religious belief. As a muslim i believe that a person will be judged by what they could have done and if they tried their best to be sincere, and not by that which they couldn't have known or done, and i provided verses in the main comment for that.

Allah says (Interpretation of the meaning): "And do not insult those they invoke other than Allāh, lest they insult Allāh in enmity without knowledge. Thus We have made pleasing to every community their deeds. Then to their Lord is their return, and He will inform them about what they used to do."

As a believer in divine justice i think that if a person does it's best to follow it's natural inherent inclination instead of biases including parental ones, cultural ones, etc, then i believe that person will be properly rewarded. At the end we are born with both a natural inclination to distinguish truth from falsehood (Independently if you believe in the concept of Fitrah or not), and also a natural inclination to follow cultural biases because of survival reasons via sacrificing the intellect sometimes. However, one of the both is clearly more logical and rational than the other, following it is commendable and would lead to a better outcome in the long run.

List of cognitive biases - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[9cel]

God is a cope and a gigabluepill if you think about it. “I know youre subhuman, and cant have sex anyway, so i will force women to not have sex before marriage to prevent you getting cucked by chad”

90% of guys: YEAHH GOD IS SO GREAT SAVING US OOFY DOOFIES FROM SIN YEA LETS GO GOD

 

[Deleted member 45118]

can you debunk this atheist meme too?

 

[noodlelover]

I don't agree with this logic. I believe we are wired to easily believe in God but a religion must have convincing proof (Which i believe Islam does more than any other religion by far, but this is for another more complex thread Insha Allah)

My argument is that Islam is the only religion that gets deep into this concept and explains it.

Yes, you are 100%. Allah says (Interpretation of the meaning): 'When they are told, “Come to what Allah has revealed, and to the messenger,” they say, “What we found our parents doing is sufficient for us.” What if their parents knew nothing, and were not guided?'

But this is part of what we mentioned ain't it? What i want to say is that if anything this proves that the study was right, and that we are wired to believe in these sort of things independently of cultures.

Some stories spread much more easily than others. Stories that feel shocking and big, that are non-falsifiable spread the easiest.

So for example Ghosts, Demons, Witches, Monsters, Luck, Magic, Aliens are secretly among us, and Deities, Afterlife, Reincarnation

When we say the forces, entities, or whatever is invisible, that's easier for people to believe because they can easily explain away why they don't often see any proof of it.

The oldest religions beliefs on record are the Pyramid Texts (2400–2300 BCE):

Pyramid Texts - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

They believed the God Atum, created the world out of chaos. He created himself. He had two children, also gods. Spells were used to call the gods to help the faros into the afterlife, where there were other gods.

I'm interested to know why you believe in a newer religion created by a single person such as Islam, rather than the oldest religion we have record of.

I mean, ghosts (Jinns, spirits, you name it) are cross cultural just like belief in God, belief in luck (Like heck, luck is a word that exists in almost every language) and same with Astrology. From China to America, even when they never held contact, yet they have many of these commonalities.

China nowadays is a politically atheist country, Japan is a majoritarily atheist country. They don't raise their children like in other places to believe from square 1 in a religion, yet somehow they still respond positively to these kinds of beliefs naturally. Which would make square one for the human being to believe in those sort of matters, and not the contrary.

First, i agree that superstition needs to be mitigated in favour of logical belief with proof. However, my argument is that atheistic belief has an even bigger burden of proof than religions because not only it is also a belief, but one that according to those studies challenges the human innate predisposition amd default state.

If you study evolution, you see that things start out simple, and become more and more complex over time, over-coming static trends such as the second law of thermodynamics.

If you study the brains of any animals, including humans, or if you study the algorithms of Ai, you understand how and why brains evolved, and how they work, and why it's extremely improbably that an intelligence would randomly be the initial entity that pre-dates all of reality.

You need a universe, and forces, and laws, and the process of evolution to create any intelligence.

I completely agree on this.

I also agree with this. We are heavily influenced by our people and environment, independently of religious belief. As a muslim i believe that a person will be judged by what they could have done and if they tried their best to be sincere, and not by that which they couldn't have known or done, and i provided verses in the main comment for that.

Allah says (Interpretation of the meaning): "And do not insult those they invoke other than Allāh, lest they insult Allāh in enmity without knowledge. Thus We have made pleasing to every community their deeds. Then to their Lord is their return, and He will inform them about what they used to do."

As a believer in divine justice i think that if a person does it's best to follow it's natural inherent inclination instead of biases including parental ones, cultural ones, etc, then i believe that person will be properly rewarded. At the end we are born with both a natural inclination to distinguish truth from falsehood (Independently if you believe in the concept of Fitrah or not), and also a natural inclination to follow cultural biases because of survival reasons via sacrificing the intellect sometimes.

However, one of the both is clearly more logical and rational than the other, following it is commendable and would lead to a better outcome in the long run.

Generally yes.

Although there are some benefits for people having false beliefs such as religions, that improve life outcomes.

Learning, Study, and figuring things out takes time and energy. That time and mental energy could be used on other tasks.

So while you could spend years studying behavioral psychology, game-theory, economics, evolution, and arrive at conclusions such as,
Don't Steal, Don't be Jealous of what others have, don't kill.

It's much simpler, and less energetically costly to believe a god commanded these things.

Another benefit to religions is the communities they create, which benefits people because they can use those communities to find emotional support, a marriage partner, jobs, and help when they need it.

On the other hand, we've seen some very successful, very rich people that study science, mathematics, game-theory, and logic, and use logic to determine their choices. Some of the richest people in the world, both rich in friends and love, and rich in all material goods.

Maybe poor religious people are happier, I don't know.

 

[ItsyBitsyJayhawk]

This is completely true. Atheists have no sense of morality nor purpose (Apart from the inherent one which only Islam addresses among the big religions, the Fitrah or Natural Inclination). Atheism (Or really polytheism because atheism isn't more than making your own desires/whatever it is why you disbelief in One God as your new God) is a rotten ideology that existed since almost the beggining of times, and NEVER prospered in any civilization that seeked to reproduce and extend their lineage because the end line would have been ALWAYS the same. DESTRUCTION OF THE HUMAN RACE because of lack of sense of purpose dedicated to a life of hedonism and after the failure of hedonism the switch to utter oblivion and hopelesness.

You know why you never heard about an atheist society? The same exact reason why you never heard about an extremely peaceful society, because if such cases of small populations even had a chance to be THEY CEASED TO EXIST completely within years in a world with extremely low age expectancy.

The only atheist society you will ever hear of is the unique case of the current western civilization, which will also cease to exist in it's current form during the next years, or otherwise dissapear.

Completely false. You are anything but unbiased and anyone with half a brain cell can see it. It's a nice bed to try and slither into it but to the semi trained eye you are not but an useless demagogue who is trying to gain empathy and likes in a involuntary celibates forum, which is pretty much some of the lowest one can get.

Is this the purpose you were speaking about before???

It's a completely empty line of argumentation trying to justify your sense of the afterlife not existing because of "Muh feelings, good and evil".

The fact that this life itself exist is one of the biggest proofs for the afterlife. This life as we know it shouldn't exist, it doesn't hold sense, however it does and ot exists against what seemed all odds and challenging all possibilities by means of almost impossible mathematical equations that could have only been designed by someone in the way even a toddler perceives the world.

Before trying to explain an afterlife, i would suggest first to try to explain this life first, something which your colleagues (Or should i say masters) have failed during the ages and whose only arguments have been "Science will reveal it one day" or "Chemicals and particles smacking eachother and coincidentally all the variables gave life even though it was nearly impossible. If you dare to challenge this then know it could have been any other way dude". Yes, any other way life didn't exist, yet here we are, in the almost impossible scenario and the miracle that life exists and we are discussing it.

The Qur'an in it's magnificency makes this argument (Interpretation of the meaning):

"He brings the living out of the dead and brings the dead out of the living and brings to life the earth after its lifelessness. And thus will you be brought out."​

God is not omnipresent but He sees and is a witness to everything that happens.

Ramblings from the basement (Or poloce station, although i hold doubts that something with your intellect or lack thereof would be even allowed in the Zimbabwe law enforcement) trying to gain more empathy and popularity, and also act as this kind of fake neutral character.

Debunked points thousands of times in this forum itself, let alone in other social media.

Since you present links i present people like Farid Responds, Sapience Institute, Muslim Skeptic, Jake the Metaphysician etc, that destroyed all this 21st century post 2001 garbage propaganda financed by the strongest powers in the world and repeated as parrots by their subjects and online prostitutes.

Another empty argument and misrepresentation which shows a clear lack of understanding of what Islam claims. Already addressed in this place several times.

In Islam we have the best system in this regard. We believe that God sent prophets to all nations, and that he didn’t judge them until He did so. Allah says (Interpretation of the meaning): "We sent a messenger to every community, saying, ‘Worship God and shun false gods.’ Among them were some God guided; misguidance took hold of others. So travel through the earth and see what was the fate of those who denied the truth."
In another verse (Interpretation of the meaning): "Whoever is guided is only guided for [the benefit of] his soul. And whoever errs only errs against it. And no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. And never would We punish until We sent a messenger."
The islamic settlement of the matter is clearly the only one that avoids your fallacies and comes from a Just God, who cares about His subjects and offers them Ultimate Justice. Ignorance? Don't worry, your Lord forgives you or judges you after giving you knowledge.

I'd go even further and say Islam is the only religion among the main ones that actually says kids who die before puberty go to paradise as muslims. Something which for some reason other religions couldn't extend their hand for (Only a Merciful God would do so) and let alone the atheist view, which already deems living children holding the same value as a bacteria in you bathroom.

Since seeing this garbage line of the post trying again to collect sympathy and act as if you hold any knowledge you have just made the Megathread of proof for God's existence now a thing in my agenda.

Stay tuned the next weeks.

This line of concrete evidence for God's existence without any kind of high level scientific investigation already exists and is heavily addressed in Islam. It's called Fitrah or Natural Inclination, and is something that applies to every human being with a sensibly open heart and mind.

The Fitrah is the concept that every human being is born with a inclination to believe in One God.

Allah says (Interpretation of the meaning): So direct your face toward the religion, inclining to truth. [Adhere to] the fitrah of Allah upon which He has created [all] people. No change should there be in the creation of Allah. That is the correct religion, but most of the people do not know.
It is narrated that the Prophet Muhammad (Peace and Blessings be upon him) said: “Every newborn is born in a state of fitrah. His parents make him a Jew, or a Christian, or Magian."

Ibn Taymiyyah said: "Being born on the Fitrah does not necessarily mean that one really believes in Islam at birth, because when Allaah brought us to this life (at birth) we do not know anything. Fitrah refers to having a pure heart which is ready to accept the truth, and that a person would be a Muslim if no one influenced him (while growing up) to change his natural inclination towards Islam."

This gets even deeper when one realizes that the human being, this supreme being on earth, this """animal""" that dominated completely all animals, can't even survive prorperly in a group of he is devoid of any sense of belief and purpose, contrary to millions and millions of other species who are way less intelligent than him. The human being, the only being that believes, yet we are trying to get convinced by edgy teenagers who go around claiming that the only purpose to life is to reproduce and survive, that this sense of belief is meaningless, empty, dumb, product of unguided chemicals and particles if not just a mere consequence.

To go further and prove this, there was a 2 million pound study carried by Oxford university with the purpose to investigate this specific matter, and this were the results

"A three-year international research project, directed by two academics at the University of Oxford, finds that humans have natural tendencies to believe in gods and an afterlife.

The £1.9 million project involved 57 researchers who conducted over 40 separate studies in 20 countries representing a diverse range of cultures.

The studies (both analytical and empirical) conclude that humans are predisposed to believe in God and an afterlife"

Some findings of the Cognition, Religion and Theology Project:

Studies by Emily Reed Burdett and Justin Barrett, from the University of Oxford, suggest that children below the age of five find it easier to believe in some superhuman properties than to understand similar human limitations. Children were asked whether their mother would know the contents of a box in which she could not see. Children aged three believed that their mother and God would always know the contents, but by the age of four, children start to understand that their mothers are not all-seeing and all knowing. However, children may continue to believe in all-seeing, all-knowing supernatural agents, such as a god or gods.Experiments involving adults, conducted by Jing Zhu from Tsinghua University (China), and Natalie Emmons and Jesse Bering from The Queen's University, Belfast, suggest that people across many different cultures instinctively believe that some part of their mind, soul or spirit lives on after-death. The studies demonstrate that people are natural 'dualists' finding it easy to conceive of the separation of the mind and the body.


It clearly does. Thousands of civilizations who happen to be the only ones who survive a long time enough without the necessity to being extremely numerous to be noticed (Contrary to current western society) are a proof of this.

You want to sell us this devoid of purpose life yet everything i see is purposeful. In fact i challenge you to tell me one thing that is happening which holds absoletuly no purpose nor chain explanation, ONE SINGLE EVENT. But, we are supposed to believe that THE MOST IMPORTANT event, the beggining of everything, was just a mere product of randomness and chance (Two words used to recognize one's ignorance but without sounding ignorant, as both of those words don't exists by themselves to begin with. I recommend Firas Zahabi with Joe Rogan debate Scientific Truth for more depth into this)

No, it doesn't logically at all follow that God shouldn't exist. This is one of the biggest fallacies you have used until now, and you have certainly been breaking some fallacious record prior to this one.

Really what you are saying here is "Since quantum physics and mechanics don't follow the traditional 1+1=2, then God doesn’t exist", as if God wasn't described as a Being completely superior to all of this matters Who created them in the first place, and as if that somehow debunked the fact that everything that happens including the smallest of leaves that falls from the tree follows a chain of command driven with purpose, independently of whether it is driven by a subset of quantum physics elements under the set of traditional witnessable logic that we understand.

Apart from the fact that this is another heavily rushed reductive conclusion which is not true obviously (Remember people, a false premise is an incorrect proposition that forms the basis of an argument or syllogism. Since the premise {proposition, or assumption} is not correct, the conclusion drawn may be in error). But besides that, i wish you had the same mental fortitude to describe your moral compasses the same.

Everytime someone from you family died, or you go to a cemetery and see someone mourning their son, etc, please, have the mental strenght to tell them/tell yourself in the face that his mere existence was an accident, and same with yours.

However i doubt it, you didn't even had the balls to say that atheists are devoid of any moral compass which is not naturally driven (Whose only explanation is that it comes instinctively from a Creator) in a involuntary celibates thread, let alone to get out of your basement and do so face to face. This showcases again the miserable existence of the atheist, walking shamefully in the street bowing down his head, knowing he is the same as a bacteria in a bathroom, living a life that is empty and useless.

Translation: "I don't have any explanation for belief instincts, so i will hide in randomness and chance and the long history of human civilization praying (Funny enough) that there is a hole of miliseconds that explains why we have such complex belief systems, and why i rely on those instinctive belief interior systems for my morality and overall daily life"

Ladies and gentlemen, this brings us to the cruz of everything with this user. The other day he confessed that his reason for atheism was that he didn’t get his churro wet with a woman "Muh because of religion". He said and i quote from the atheist hero, this "walking learned philosopher" who "read every religious book there is", TheBuffdon860: "Religion in general is dogshit, but Islam is takes it to another level. Could have lost my virginity time and time again if it wasn’t for this cuck religion"

It always boils down to this with these people. Pure emotion, zero logic, zero mental strenght, zero anything with real value.

It's the famous paradox all over again. "I destroy a house in the last party i had (Or want to have) and my landlord comes to whom i own everything and he asks me for explanations. I have therefore two options: 1-Asking forgiveness, pay reparations, recognize my mistakes, own up, make an effort and improve myself. 2- Deny that the house is owned by the landlord by all means possible, even if it is written on every single square meter of the house (Atheism)

Theorizing without any basis about that which is heavily primitive on it's knowledge. All you have really.

Basically recognizing that you argument is completely rotten from the beggining, and that it does not prove anything at all because it has been destroyed since centuries by now.

They don't even believe in evil so who cares about what atheist philosophers believe? For them evil doesn’t exist, it's a moral construct, a lie, same as good. They themselves give no value to their words (Except to gain money of course)

What certain evils?? Do you have a scale as an atheist??? You don't believe in evil

We believers and muslims in specific do have scales of evil in which all case scenarios are contemplated and explained.

Also it's funny that you can't even realize your own contradictions within few lines. For once you say "It seems intuitively implausible for God to allow certain evils to occur" but then your entire argument relies on human intuition, which is something that as proven above leads to the existence of God and an afterlife being true as proven by the above comments and studies posted.

This is not our point of view. Again you sre misrepresenting completely our position and mixing it up with yours.

YOU are the one as an atheist who believes evim "is more lf an intuitive understanding of a state of mental or physical being according to someone's own perception"

WE believe that evil is clearly defined by God in His scriptures and revelations, period. Same with good.

Irrelevant as first, any study that tries to so will get vastly different responses from civilization to civilization (Just look at homosexuality, which is highly shunned upon in 85% of the world while considered one of the greatest evils and accepted and celebrated the west).

All your argument will be based on made up rating scales of good and evil based on your interpretation and i can see it already.

There clearly is, but you are playing sneaky for anyone who is ignorant. You are sticking with your particular definition that all evil is instinctive somehow and that's the only way to define it. As i said, evil is already defined for us people who believe in religions, especially monotheistic ones. We don't adhere to these empty standards.

No doubt that evil is detectable instinctively, same as good (Greatly affected by the Fitrah), but it is so vastly variable if you just rely on instincts (Which are also irremediably affected by several other events like people and society) that you could pick up 5 psychos together and for them killing a hobo would not be remotely evil to begin with.

False. You wouldn't have only to do that, but also to learn the entirety of human history when you can't even know who stole your banana from the fridge, you would need to descipher all the enviroment of every single individual, all the people he hang out with, every single of his interactions and see how they affected his views, make extremely deep analysis of his thoughts with technology we don't possess (And probably we will never possess), etc

Yes, basically you want the entire blueprint of humanity, an Ultimate Book. Basically you are recognizing the necessity of an Ultimate Guide to define Good and Evil. This as religious people we already have, we muslims call it Qur'an and it explains to us what is good and evil, how we should govern ourselves, etc.

You really are critizicing us for adhering to that which you lack and wish you had. A code of life that gives purpose.

You are so funny bro look at how in laughing...

"SO So hard"

Translation: "I have no idea of what i'm doing and what to use as a starting point because as an atheist i lack any sense of morality and purpose"

Just the hopefully part completely debunks every inch or iota of certainty your argument might have remotely hold

Irrelevant. You don't believe in Good and Evil and the only way for them to exist is if there was an Ultimate Judge who defines them properly.

False. Too many fake premises as usual.

For once, you are the one who believes that all those evil acts you describe are not even evil, they are simply acts that happened and you insinctively individualistically (Supposedly, at least that's what you claim) perceive them as evil whereas the japanese and germans, two of the most "advanced" civilizations in history according to materialistic standards, and were heavily inspired by prominent atheists like Nietchzche, didn't perceive them as such but as an ultimate good.

Really the "Most people part is such an empty argument". Most people could be convinced within 6 months (Don't even doubt this) of current media propaganda that cannibalism is actually good (This study has already been done by the way by a recently famous spanish general).

Most people in Israel hate Palestinians and see them as "human animals". Most people in Nazi Germany hated the jews. This most people dynamic is a waste of time and you are basing your entire argument on it.

As religious people we don't believe that evil doesn’t gave a purpose.

In Islam, paired with the above mentioned ignorance verses, we also believe that the Prophet (Peace and Blessings be upon him) said: "Wondrous is the affair of the believer for there is good for him in every matter and this is not the case with anyone except the believer. If he is happy, then he thanks Allah and thus there is good for him, and if he is harmed, then he shows patience and thus there is good for him."
Islam is the only main religion which addresses the Problem of Evil directly.
Allah says in the Qur'an (Interpretation of the meaning): And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."
This leads us to the blatant assumption and contradiction in the entirety of your argument. You assume that an afterlife where proper justice will apply doesn’t exist.

I could understand this line of argumentation with someone who believes in Karma or any sort of justice concept in which such is served exclusively in this life. But for someone who believes in an afterlife in which accounts will be settled based on what happens in this life??? What's even more amazing, is that your entire argument is based on "instictively" describing and rating evil, yet YOU DENY THE INSTINCTIVE NECESSITY AND BELIEF OF AN AFTERLIFE, already proven above by the famous Oxford study and by the history of humdreds of civilizations set apart which held the same belief.

The basis of your argument is this sort of pseudoinvented morality rating scale based on extremely subjective human instinct but then you scratch all human instinct and it's predisposition of belief in an afterlife once it doesn't serve your purpose of denying a Just God. It's like playing a basketball match but you do it without the basket because it doesn't serve your purpose since you know you are doomed to lose the game in any scenario.

Allah describes your kind in the best of words in His Holy Book (Interpretation of the meaning): And they denied and followed their inclinations. But for every matter is a [time of] settlement.


Ireelevant. God gives us free will and tests us on it. We are not angels who follow all the commands of God, we are given the option to be better than angels or worse than animals depending on our decisions, and have better or worse rewards than them in our afterlife.

Allah says (Interpretation of the meaning): Do people think once they say, “We believe,” that they will be left without being put to the test? Or do the evildoers ˹simply˺ think that they will escape Us? How wrong is their judgment! Whoever hopes for the meeting with Allah, ˹let them know that˺ Allah’s appointed time is sure to come. He is the All-Hearing, All-Knowing. We have commanded people to honour their parents. But if they urge you to associate with Me what you have no knowledge of, then do not obey them. To Me you will ˹all˺ return, and then I will inform you of what you used to do.

Whatever it seems to you is completely irrelevant and not only that, but baseless as already proven.

Free will allows both good and bad to happen. God commands good to happen and forbids bad, makes rulings based on such and promoting the first.

Anything outside that is not free will. Funny that this comes from the people who constantly champion "Freedom and liberty" but when they are given the option they cry because it doesn't fit their purposes and desires during that specific moment

God is not made up of parts. We believe that God has hands, a face, etc, (Depending on the school of thought), but we don't believe those can be considered parts at all but only a Unique One Being.

Allah says: "He is the First and the Last, the Evident and the Immanent; and He has full knowledge of all things"

We believe that Allah is Al Ahad (The Unique), and He says (Interpretation of the meaning): There is nothing like Him, for He (alone) is the All-Hearing, All-Seeing.”
And He also says (Interpretation of the meaning): Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him.
Ibn Taymiyyah said: "The word “body” is very general. It could refer to something that was put together, of which the parts were separate then they were put together; or something that can be divided and separated into parts; or something that consists of physical material and an image; or something that consists of single particles that are put together, but Allah, may He be exalted, is far above all that; or something that was separate then came together; or something that can be divided and separated, meaning that one part of the thing separates from another part; or it may indicate some other meaning that refers to something that is put together – which is impossible in the case of Allah."

The contingency argument is one of the golden bullets. The argument that simply can't be debunked by any current means. Will be addressed in another thread Insha Allah.

Basically you are recognizing that God exists without doing so.

All your thread is like this.

You destroyed your entire argument with one word, "seems".

Your entire argument is destroyed with the word "Agency" and the definition you give to it, which is a misrepresentation that makes it seem as if we believe God is acting with the permission of another being (Something which would lead to an impossible Infinite Regress which would lead to believe in the existence of an Ultimate Creator as the only credible argument) and also based on that God is inside and limited by time. We believe God is Eternal and is not limited by time, and we also believe that this concept cannot be completely conceived by beings who are stucked inside time like us, but only thought and reflected upon. This is proof of the superiority of God in regards to humankind and to creation if anything, not the contrary.

God is not limited by time and doesn’t have to make a decision to exist. You are limited by time and you are making God a human being who is also limited by time to fit your argument. One of the contentions against Jesus (Peace and Blessings be upon him) being God by the way

No, He is not inside time. He doesn't have to "push a button" or "decide" to cease existing because those concepts are outside of Him, He is not subject to them like we are.

Yes, His non existence is impossible, therefore His existence is Neceessary

Impossible: not possible; unable to be, exist, happen, etc. unable to be done, performed, effected, etc.
Necessary: determined, existing, or happening by natural laws or predestination; inevitable.
It doesn't have any mechanism to cease existing because He is outside time. This is really the "God can't lift a rock stronger than him that He created" argument

This argument is not valid at all because the power of Allaah is not connected to irrationalities and contradictions. God won't do anything that goes against His attributes.

Calling yourself an "High IQ thinker" is the biggest overstatement i have seen since the "Most moral army in the world" claim made by the israelis

Yes. And that's why atheism is deemed to never prosper and dissapear.

Just the fact that we need God to prosper and we know we need Him, is a proof of His existence to anyone with a sane intellect.
 

Translation: "Bla bla bla i'm so open minded bla bla bla give me like give me react give me validation in an incel forum"

@SecularIslamist @Fiqh @Hamdan @Michael Myers @emeraldglass @coispet @wsada @TsarTsar444 @HarrierDuBois @st.hamudi but 6‘5 @RAMU KAKA @STAMPEDE @try2beme @SubhumanCurrycel @bndar.337

So I mustered up all the motivation I could and somehow ended up reading this entire post (my ADHD self is impressed of itself). That said, sorry to break it to you bud but anyone with half a brain can tell that you didn't present a single case or argument that cannot or hasn't already been debunked a hundred times over by yours truly alone. You didn't even manage to accomplish the actual objective of your post which was to prove the existence of God and by an unbelievable stretch, a personal God, and that too a very specific interpretation of a personal God belonging to a specific religion called Islam. Talk about self-deception. Your reply was largely preoccupied with the ethos of theism and theology than existentialism (not that you were on point in that regard either). Contrary to what you might believe, these are popular talking points that get passed around a lot so don't think too highly of yourself. You're the Muslim equivalent of Ben Shapiro. You just bombarded the opposition with heaps of information (which may or may not be authoritative) to avoid a proper discourse on the subject matter. It's sophistry.

I want to make an essay-length reply but I don't have the motivation to do that right now. If you want a proper discourse on this topic, do me a favour and reply to this comment. I would prefer if your reply is chock full of vitriol. Enough vitriol to piss me off and give me the much needed motivation that I don't have at the moment. I'll be back here in a week or so.

 

[Thebuffdon690]

I don't agree with this logic. I believe we are wired to easily believe in God but a religion must have convincing proof (Which i believe Islam does more than any other religion by far, but this is for another more complex thread Insha Allah)

My argument is that Islam is the only religion that gets deep into this concept and explains it.

Yes, you are 100%. Allah says (Interpretation of the meaning): 'When they are told, “Come to what Allah has revealed, and to the messenger,” they say, “What we found our parents doing is sufficient for us.” What if their parents knew nothing, and were not guided?'

But this is part of what we mentioned ain't it? What i want to say is that if anything this proves that the study was right, and that we are wired to believe in these sort of things independently of cultures. I mean, ghosts (Jinns, spirits, you name it) are cross cultural just like belief in God, belief in luck (Like heck, luck is a word that exists in almost every language) and same with Astrology. From China to America, even when they never held contact, yet they have many of these commonalities.

China nowadays is a politically atheist country, Japan is a majoritarily atheist country. They don't raise their children like in other places to believe from square 1 in a religion, yet somehow they still respond positively to these kinds of beliefs naturally. Which would make square one for the human being to believe in those sort of matters, and not the contrary.

First, i agree that superstition needs to be mitigated in favour of logical belief with proof. However, my argument is that atheistic belief has an even bigger burden of proof than religions because not only it is also a belief, but one that according to those studies challenges the human innate predisposition amd default state.

I completely agree on this.

I also agree with this. We are heavily influenced by our people and environment, independently of religious belief. As a muslim i believe that a person will be judged by what they could have done and if they tried their best to be sincere, and not by that which they couldn't have known or done, and i provided verses in the main comment for that.

Allah says (Interpretation of the meaning): "And do not insult those they invoke other than Allāh, lest they insult Allāh in enmity without knowledge. Thus We have made pleasing to every community their deeds. Then to their Lord is their return, and He will inform them about what they used to do."

As a believer in divine justice i think that if a person does it's best to follow it's natural inherent inclination instead of biases including parental ones, cultural ones, etc, then i believe that person will be properly rewarded. At the end we are born with both a natural inclination to distinguish truth from falsehood (Independently if you believe in the concept of Fitrah or not), and also a natural inclination to follow cultural biases because of survival reasons via sacrificing the intellect sometimes. However, one of the both is clearly more logical and rational than the other, following it is commendable and would lead to a better outcome in the long run.

Shut the fuck up Muzzie fed

 

[Thebuffdon690]

So I mustered up all the motivation I could and somehow ended up reading this entire post (my ADHD self is impressed of itself). That said, sorry to break it to you bud but anyone with half a brain can tell that you didn't present a single case or argument that cannot or hasn't already been debunked a hundred times over by yours truly alone. You didn't even manage to accomplish the actual objective of your post which was to prove the existence of God and by an unbelievable stretch, a personal God, and that too a very specific interpretation of a personal God belonging to a specific religion called Islam. Talk about self-deception. Your reply was largely preoccupied with the ethos of theism and theology than existentialism (not that you were on point in that regard either). Contrary to what you might believe, these are popular talking points that get passed around a lot so don't think too highly of yourself. You're the Muslim equivalent of Ben Shapiro. You just bombarded the opposition with heaps of information (which may or may not be authoritative) to avoid a proper discourse on the subject matter. It's sophistry.

I want to make an essay-length reply but I don't have the motivation to do that right now. If you want a proper discourse on this topic, do me a favour and reply to this comment. I would prefer if your reply is chock full of vitriol. Enough vitriol to piss me off and give me the much needed motivation that I don't have at the moment. I'll be back here in a week or so.

@MaghrebGator

Now ur autistic ass is somehow gonna flip this so I’m the one getting clowned lmao

 

[wollet2]

Bro is quoting quran, needless to say that nothing further was read

@SensitiveYoungMan

lmao

 

[MazoNitNit]

High IQ

Yea its not bad, ngl i aint read allat tho

 

[MazoNitNit]

Nigga I studied Islam for years before leaving it. Therefore I know it’s objectively wrong. Another fucking moronic post by some dimwit Muslim who is trying to do damage control. Not even worth wasting my time over

hypocrite at least reply to him like he replied to you, you were complaining about people just reading and not giving arguments to ur thread, well guess what you're now doing the same thing by saying ''NoT eVEn WoRtH WaStInG mY TiMe oVeR''

 

[try2beme]

Yea its not bad, ngl i aint read allat tho

Read some

 

[Thebuffdon690]

hypocrite at least reply to him like he replied to you, you were complaining about people just reading and not giving arguments to ur thread, well guess what you're now doing the same thing by saying ''NoT eVEn WoRtH WaStInG mY TiMe oVeR''

It’s cuz it’s dogshit why would I waste My time on it

 

[Posmo]

Quran is corrupted, cool story tho

 

[aber]

This is completely true. Atheists have no sense of morality nor purpose (Apart from the inherent one which only Islam addresses among the big religions, the Fitrah or Natural Inclination). Atheism (Or really polytheism because atheism isn't more than making your own desires/whatever it is why you disbelief in One God as your new God) is a rotten ideology that existed since almost the beggining of times, and NEVER prospered in any civilization that seeked to reproduce and extend their lineage because the end line would have been ALWAYS the same. DESTRUCTION OF THE HUMAN RACE because of lack of sense of purpose dedicated to a life of hedonism and after the failure of hedonism the switch to utter oblivion and hopelesness.

You know why you never heard about an atheist society? The same exact reason why you never heard about an extremely peaceful society, because if such cases of small populations even had a chance to be THEY CEASED TO EXIST completely within years in a world with extremely low age expectancy.

The only atheist society you will ever hear of is the unique case of the current western civilization, which will also cease to exist in it's current form during the next years, or otherwise dissapear.

Completely false. You are anything but unbiased and anyone with half a brain cell can see it. It's a nice bed to try and slither into it but to the semi trained eye you are not but an useless demagogue who is trying to gain empathy and likes in a involuntary celibates forum, which is pretty much some of the lowest one can get.

Is this the purpose you were speaking about before???

It's a completely empty line of argumentation trying to justify your sense of the afterlife not existing because of "Muh feelings, good and evil".

The fact that this life itself exist is one of the biggest proofs for the afterlife. This life as we know it shouldn't exist, it doesn't hold sense, however it does and ot exists against what seemed all odds and challenging all possibilities by means of almost impossible mathematical equations that could have only been designed by someone in the way even a toddler perceives the world.

Before trying to explain an afterlife, i would suggest first to try to explain this life first, something which your colleagues (Or should i say masters) have failed during the ages and whose only arguments have been "Science will reveal it one day" or "Chemicals and particles smacking eachother and coincidentally all the variables gave life even though it was nearly impossible. If you dare to challenge this then know it could have been any other way dude". Yes, any other way life didn't exist, yet here we are, in the almost impossible scenario and the miracle that life exists and we are discussing it.

The Qur'an in it's magnificency makes this argument (Interpretation of the meaning):

"He brings the living out of the dead and brings the dead out of the living and brings to life the earth after its lifelessness. And thus will you be brought out."​

God is not omnipresent but He sees and is a witness to everything that happens.

Ramblings from the basement (Or poloce station, although i hold doubts that something with your intellect or lack thereof would be even allowed in the Zimbabwe law enforcement) trying to gain more empathy and popularity, and also act as this kind of fake neutral character.

Debunked points thousands of times in this forum itself, let alone in other social media.

Since you present links i present people like Farid Responds, Sapience Institute, Muslim Skeptic, Jake the Metaphysician etc, that destroyed all this 21st century post 2001 garbage propaganda financed by the strongest powers in the world and repeated as parrots by their subjects and online prostitutes.

Another empty argument and misrepresentation which shows a clear lack of understanding of what Islam claims. Already addressed in this place several times.

In Islam we have the best system in this regard. We believe that God sent prophets to all nations, and that he didn’t judge them until He did so. Allah says (Interpretation of the meaning): "We sent a messenger to every community, saying, ‘Worship God and shun false gods.’ Among them were some God guided; misguidance took hold of others. So travel through the earth and see what was the fate of those who denied the truth."
In another verse (Interpretation of the meaning): "Whoever is guided is only guided for [the benefit of] his soul. And whoever errs only errs against it. And no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. And never would We punish until We sent a messenger."
The islamic settlement of the matter is clearly the only one that avoids your fallacies and comes from a Just God, who cares about His subjects and offers them Ultimate Justice. Ignorance? Don't worry, your Lord forgives you or judges you after giving you knowledge.

I'd go even further and say Islam is the only religion among the main ones that actually says kids who die before puberty go to paradise as muslims. Something which for some reason other religions couldn't extend their hand for (Only a Merciful God would do so) and let alone the atheist view, which already deems living children holding the same value as a bacteria in you bathroom.

Since seeing this garbage line of the post trying again to collect sympathy and act as if you hold any knowledge you have just made the Megathread of proof for God's existence now a thing in my agenda.

Stay tuned the next weeks.

This line of concrete evidence for God's existence without any kind of high level scientific investigation already exists and is heavily addressed in Islam. It's called Fitrah or Natural Inclination, and is something that applies to every human being with a sensibly open heart and mind.

The Fitrah is the concept that every human being is born with a inclination to believe in One God.

Allah says (Interpretation of the meaning): So direct your face toward the religion, inclining to truth. [Adhere to] the fitrah of Allah upon which He has created [all] people. No change should there be in the creation of Allah. That is the correct religion, but most of the people do not know.
It is narrated that the Prophet Muhammad (Peace and Blessings be upon him) said: “Every newborn is born in a state of fitrah. His parents make him a Jew, or a Christian, or Magian."

Ibn Taymiyyah said: "Being born on the Fitrah does not necessarily mean that one really believes in Islam at birth, because when Allaah brought us to this life (at birth) we do not know anything. Fitrah refers to having a pure heart which is ready to accept the truth, and that a person would be a Muslim if no one influenced him (while growing up) to change his natural inclination towards Islam."

This gets even deeper when one realizes that the human being, this supreme being on earth, this """animal""" that dominated completely all animals, can't even survive prorperly in a group of he is devoid of any sense of belief and purpose, contrary to millions and millions of other species who are way less intelligent than him. The human being, the only being that believes, yet we are trying to get convinced by edgy teenagers who go around claiming that the only purpose to life is to reproduce and survive, that this sense of belief is meaningless, empty, dumb, product of unguided chemicals and particles if not just a mere consequence.

To go further and prove this, there was a 2 million pound study carried by Oxford university with the purpose to investigate this specific matter, and this were the results

"A three-year international research project, directed by two academics at the University of Oxford, finds that humans have natural tendencies to believe in gods and an afterlife.

The £1.9 million project involved 57 researchers who conducted over 40 separate studies in 20 countries representing a diverse range of cultures.

The studies (both analytical and empirical) conclude that humans are predisposed to believe in God and an afterlife"

Some findings of the Cognition, Religion and Theology Project:

Studies by Emily Reed Burdett and Justin Barrett, from the University of Oxford, suggest that children below the age of five find it easier to believe in some superhuman properties than to understand similar human limitations. Children were asked whether their mother would know the contents of a box in which she could not see. Children aged three believed that their mother and God would always know the contents, but by the age of four, children start to understand that their mothers are not all-seeing and all knowing. However, children may continue to believe in all-seeing, all-knowing supernatural agents, such as a god or gods.Experiments involving adults, conducted by Jing Zhu from Tsinghua University (China), and Natalie Emmons and Jesse Bering from The Queen's University, Belfast, suggest that people across many different cultures instinctively believe that some part of their mind, soul or spirit lives on after-death. The studies demonstrate that people are natural 'dualists' finding it easy to conceive of the separation of the mind and the body.


It clearly does. Thousands of civilizations who happen to be the only ones who survive a long time enough without the necessity to being extremely numerous to be noticed (Contrary to current western society) are a proof of this.

You want to sell us this devoid of purpose life yet everything i see is purposeful. In fact i challenge you to tell me one thing that is happening which holds absoletuly no purpose nor chain explanation, ONE SINGLE EVENT. But, we are supposed to believe that THE MOST IMPORTANT event, the beggining of everything, was just a mere product of randomness and chance (Two words used to recognize one's ignorance but without sounding ignorant, as both of those words don't exists by themselves to begin with. I recommend Firas Zahabi with Joe Rogan debate Scientific Truth for more depth into this)

No, it doesn't logically at all follow that God shouldn't exist. This is one of the biggest fallacies you have used until now, and you have certainly been breaking some fallacious record prior to this one.

Really what you are saying here is "Since quantum physics and mechanics don't follow the traditional 1+1=2, then God doesn’t exist", as if God wasn't described as a Being completely superior to all of this matters Who created them in the first place, and as if that somehow debunked the fact that everything that happens including the smallest of leaves that falls from the tree follows a chain of command driven with purpose, independently of whether it is driven by a subset of quantum physics elements under the set of traditional witnessable logic that we understand.

Apart from the fact that this is another heavily rushed reductive conclusion which is not true obviously (Remember people, a false premise is an incorrect proposition that forms the basis of an argument or syllogism. Since the premise {proposition, or assumption} is not correct, the conclusion drawn may be in error). But besides that, i wish you had the same mental fortitude to describe your moral compasses the same.

Everytime someone from you family died, or you go to a cemetery and see someone mourning their son, etc, please, have the mental strenght to tell them/tell yourself in the face that his mere existence was an accident, and same with yours.

However i doubt it, you didn't even had the balls to say that atheists are devoid of any moral compass which is not naturally driven (Whose only explanation is that it comes instinctively from a Creator) in a involuntary celibates thread, let alone to get out of your basement and do so face to face. This showcases again the miserable existence of the atheist, walking shamefully in the street bowing down his head, knowing he is the same as a bacteria in a bathroom, living a life that is empty and useless.

Translation: "I don't have any explanation for belief instincts, so i will hide in randomness and chance and the long history of human civilization praying (Funny enough) that there is a hole of miliseconds that explains why we have such complex belief systems, and why i rely on those instinctive belief interior systems for my morality and overall daily life"

Ladies and gentlemen, this brings us to the cruz of everything with this user. The other day he confessed that his reason for atheism was that he didn’t get his churro wet with a woman "Muh because of religion". He said and i quote from the atheist hero, this "walking learned philosopher" who "read every religious book there is", TheBuffdon860: "Religion in general is dogshit, but Islam is takes it to another level. Could have lost my virginity time and time again if it wasn’t for this cuck religion"

It always boils down to this with these people. Pure emotion, zero logic, zero mental strenght, zero anything with real value.

It's the famous paradox all over again. "I destroy a house in the last party i had (Or want to have) and my landlord comes to whom i own everything and he asks me for explanations. I have therefore two options: 1-Asking forgiveness, pay reparations, recognize my mistakes, own up, make an effort and improve myself. 2- Deny that the house is owned by the landlord by all means possible, even if it is written on every single square meter of the house (Atheism)

Theorizing without any basis about that which is heavily primitive on it's knowledge. All you have really.

Basically recognizing that you argument is completely rotten from the beggining, and that it does not prove anything at all because it has been destroyed since centuries by now.

They don't even believe in evil so who cares about what atheist philosophers believe? For them evil doesn’t exist, it's a moral construct, a lie, same as good. They themselves give no value to their words (Except to gain money of course)

What certain evils?? Do you have a scale as an atheist??? You don't believe in evil

We believers and muslims in specific do have scales of evil in which all case scenarios are contemplated and explained.

Also it's funny that you can't even realize your own contradictions within few lines. For once you say "It seems intuitively implausible for God to allow certain evils to occur" but then your entire argument relies on human intuition, which is something that as proven above leads to the existence of God and an afterlife being true as proven by the above comments and studies posted.

This is not our point of view. Again you sre misrepresenting completely our position and mixing it up with yours.

YOU are the one as an atheist who believes evim "is more lf an intuitive understanding of a state of mental or physical being according to someone's own perception"

WE believe that evil is clearly defined by God in His scriptures and revelations, period. Same with good.

Irrelevant as first, any study that tries to so will get vastly different responses from civilization to civilization (Just look at homosexuality, which is highly shunned upon in 85% of the world while considered one of the greatest evils and accepted and celebrated the west).

All your argument will be based on made up rating scales of good and evil based on your interpretation and i can see it already.

There clearly is, but you are playing sneaky for anyone who is ignorant. You are sticking with your particular definition that all evil is instinctive somehow and that's the only way to define it. As i said, evil is already defined for us people who believe in religions, especially monotheistic ones. We don't adhere to these empty standards.

No doubt that evil is detectable instinctively, same as good (Greatly affected by the Fitrah), but it is so vastly variable if you just rely on instincts (Which are also irremediably affected by several other events like people and society) that you could pick up 5 psychos together and for them killing a hobo would not be remotely evil to begin with.

False. You wouldn't have only to do that, but also to learn the entirety of human history when you can't even know who stole your banana from the fridge, you would need to descipher all the enviroment of every single individual, all the people he hang out with, every single of his interactions and see how they affected his views, make extremely deep analysis of his thoughts with technology we don't possess (And probably we will never possess), etc

Yes, basically you want the entire blueprint of humanity, an Ultimate Book. Basically you are recognizing the necessity of an Ultimate Guide to define Good and Evil. This as religious people we already have, we muslims call it Qur'an and it explains to us what is good and evil, how we should govern ourselves, etc.

You really are critizicing us for adhering to that which you lack and wish you had. A code of life that gives purpose.

You are so funny bro look at how in laughing...

"SO So hard"

Translation: "I have no idea of what i'm doing and what to use as a starting point because as an atheist i lack any sense of morality and purpose"

Just the hopefully part completely debunks every inch or iota of certainty your argument might have remotely hold

Irrelevant. You don't believe in Good and Evil and the only way for them to exist is if there was an Ultimate Judge who defines them properly.

False. Too many fake premises as usual.

For once, you are the one who believes that all those evil acts you describe are not even evil, they are simply acts that happened and you insinctively individualistically (Supposedly, at least that's what you claim) perceive them as evil whereas the japanese and germans, two of the most "advanced" civilizations in history according to materialistic standards, and were heavily inspired by prominent atheists like Nietchzche, didn't perceive them as such but as an ultimate good.

Really the "Most people part is such an empty argument". Most people could be convinced within 6 months (Don't even doubt this) of current media propaganda that cannibalism is actually good (This study has already been done by the way by a recently famous spanish general).

Most people in Israel hate Palestinians and see them as "human animals". Most people in Nazi Germany hated the jews. This most people dynamic is a waste of time and you are basing your entire argument on it.

As religious people we don't believe that evil doesn’t gave a purpose.

In Islam, paired with the above mentioned ignorance verses, we also believe that the Prophet (Peace and Blessings be upon him) said: "Wondrous is the affair of the believer for there is good for him in every matter and this is not the case with anyone except the believer. If he is happy, then he thanks Allah and thus there is good for him, and if he is harmed, then he shows patience and thus there is good for him."
Islam is the only main religion which addresses the Problem of Evil directly.
Allah says in the Qur'an (Interpretation of the meaning): And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."
This leads us to the blatant assumption and contradiction in the entirety of your argument. You assume that an afterlife where proper justice will apply doesn’t exist.

I could understand this line of argumentation with someone who believes in Karma or any sort of justice concept in which such is served exclusively in this life. But for someone who believes in an afterlife in which accounts will be settled based on what happens in this life??? What's even more amazing, is that your entire argument is based on "instictively" describing and rating evil, yet YOU DENY THE INSTINCTIVE NECESSITY AND BELIEF OF AN AFTERLIFE, already proven above by the famous Oxford study and by the history of humdreds of civilizations set apart which held the same belief.

The basis of your argument is this sort of pseudoinvented morality rating scale based on extremely subjective human instinct but then you scratch all human instinct and it's predisposition of belief in an afterlife once it doesn't serve your purpose of denying a Just God. It's like playing a basketball match but you do it without the basket because it doesn't serve your purpose since you know you are doomed to lose the game in any scenario.

Allah describes your kind in the best of words in His Holy Book (Interpretation of the meaning): And they denied and followed their inclinations. But for every matter is a [time of] settlement.


Ireelevant. God gives us free will and tests us on it. We are not angels who follow all the commands of God, we are given the option to be better than angels or worse than animals depending on our decisions, and have better or worse rewards than them in our afterlife.

Allah says (Interpretation of the meaning): Do people think once they say, “We believe,” that they will be left without being put to the test? Or do the evildoers ˹simply˺ think that they will escape Us? How wrong is their judgment! Whoever hopes for the meeting with Allah, ˹let them know that˺ Allah’s appointed time is sure to come. He is the All-Hearing, All-Knowing. We have commanded people to honour their parents. But if they urge you to associate with Me what you have no knowledge of, then do not obey them. To Me you will ˹all˺ return, and then I will inform you of what you used to do.

Whatever it seems to you is completely irrelevant and not only that, but baseless as already proven.

Free will allows both good and bad to happen. God commands good to happen and forbids bad, makes rulings based on such and promoting the first.

Anything outside that is not free will. Funny that this comes from the people who constantly champion "Freedom and liberty" but when they are given the option they cry because it doesn't fit their purposes and desires during that specific moment

God is not made up of parts. We believe that God has hands, a face, etc, (Depending on the school of thought), but we don't believe those can be considered parts at all but only a Unique One Being.

Allah says: "He is the First and the Last, the Evident and the Immanent; and He has full knowledge of all things"

We believe that Allah is Al Ahad (The Unique), and He says (Interpretation of the meaning): There is nothing like Him, for He (alone) is the All-Hearing, All-Seeing.”
And He also says (Interpretation of the meaning): Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him.
Ibn Taymiyyah said: "The word “body” is very general. It could refer to something that was put together, of which the parts were separate then they were put together; or something that can be divided and separated into parts; or something that consists of physical material and an image; or something that consists of single particles that are put together, but Allah, may He be exalted, is far above all that; or something that was separate then came together; or something that can be divided and separated, meaning that one part of the thing separates from another part; or it may indicate some other meaning that refers to something that is put together – which is impossible in the case of Allah."

The contingency argument is one of the golden bullets. The argument that simply can't be debunked by any current means. Will be addressed in another thread Insha Allah.

Basically you are recognizing that God exists without doing so.

All your thread is like this.

You destroyed your entire argument with one word, "seems".

Your entire argument is destroyed with the word "Agency" and the definition you give to it, which is a misrepresentation that makes it seem as if we believe God is acting with the permission of another being (Something which would lead to an impossible Infinite Regress which would lead to believe in the existence of an Ultimate Creator as the only credible argument) and also based on that God is inside and limited by time. We believe God is Eternal and is not limited by time, and we also believe that this concept cannot be completely conceived by beings who are stucked inside time like us, but only thought and reflected upon. This is proof of the superiority of God in regards to humankind and to creation if anything, not the contrary.

God is not limited by time and doesn’t have to make a decision to exist. You are limited by time and you are making God a human being who is also limited by time to fit your argument. One of the contentions against Jesus (Peace and Blessings be upon him) being God by the way

No, He is not inside time. He doesn't have to "push a button" or "decide" to cease existing because those concepts are outside of Him, He is not subject to them like we are.

Yes, His non existence is impossible, therefore His existence is Neceessary

Impossible: not possible; unable to be, exist, happen, etc. unable to be done, performed, effected, etc.
Necessary: determined, existing, or happening by natural laws or predestination; inevitable.
It doesn't have any mechanism to cease existing because He is outside time. This is really the "God can't lift a rock stronger than him that He created" argument

This argument is not valid at all because the power of Allaah is not connected to irrationalities and contradictions. God won't do anything that goes against His attributes.

Calling yourself an "High IQ thinker" is the biggest overstatement i have seen since the "Most moral army in the world" claim made by the israelis

Yes. And that's why atheism is deemed to never prosper and dissapear.

Just the fact that we need God to prosper and we know we need Him, is a proof of His existence to anyone with a sane intellect.
 

Translation: "Bla bla bla i'm so open minded bla bla bla give me like give me react give me validation in an incel forum"

@SecularIslamist @Fiqh @Hamdan @Michael Myers @emeraldglass @coispet @wsada @TsarTsar444 @HarrierDuBois @st.hamudi but 6‘5 @RAMU KAKA @STAMPEDE @try2beme @SubhumanCurrycel @bndar.337

Bhai come the fuck on. As a Theist myself I almost took this shit seriously, then you had to fucking quote the Quran. Unbelievable. Fucking unbelievable.

 

[Thebuffdon690]

Bhai come the fuck on. As a Theist myself I almost took this shit seriously, then you had to fucking quote the Quran. Unbelievable. Fucking unbelievable.

@MaghrebGator you’ve officially fallen. Another one bites the dust

 

[mvp2v1]

what is god?

 

[Deleted member 46941]

You didn't destroy jack shit