MaghrebGator
Kraken
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This is completely true. Atheists have no sense of morality nor purpose (Apart from the inherent one which only Islam addresses among the big religions, the Fitrah or Natural Inclination). Atheism (Or really polytheism because atheism isn't more than making your own desires/whatever it is why you disbelief in One God as your new God) is a rotten ideology that existed since almost the beggining of times, and NEVER prospered in any civilization that seeked to reproduce and extend their lineage because the end line would have been ALWAYS the same. DESTRUCTION OF THE HUMAN RACE because of lack of sense of purpose dedicated to a life of hedonism and after the failure of hedonism the switch to utter oblivion and hopelesness.
You know why you never heard about an atheist society? The same exact reason why you never heard about an extremely peaceful society, because if such cases of small populations even had a chance to be THEY CEASED TO EXIST completely within years in a world with extremely low age expectancy.
The only atheist society you will ever hear of is the unique case of the current western civilization, which will also cease to exist in it's current form during the next years, or otherwise dissapear.
Completely false. You are anything but unbiased and anyone with half a brain cell can see it. It's a nice bed to try and slither into it but to the semi trained eye you are not but an useless demagogue who is trying to gain empathy and likes in a involuntary celibates forum, which is pretty much some of the lowest one can get.
Is this the purpose you were speaking about before???
It's a completely empty line of argumentation trying to justify your sense of the afterlife not existing because of "Muh feelings, good and evil".
The fact that this life itself exist is one of the biggest proofs for the afterlife. This life as we know it shouldn't exist, it doesn't hold sense, however it does and ot exists against what seemed all odds and challenging all possibilities by means of almost impossible mathematical equations that could have only been designed by someone in the way even a toddler perceives the world.
Before trying to explain an afterlife, i would suggest first to try to explain this life first, something which your colleagues (Or should i say masters) have failed during the ages and whose only arguments have been "Science will reveal it one day" or "Chemicals and particles smacking eachother and coincidentally all the variables gave life even though it was nearly impossible. If you dare to challenge this then know it could have been any other way dude". Yes, any other way life didn't exist, yet here we are, in the almost impossible scenario and the miracle that life exists and we are discussing it.
The Qur'an in it's magnificency makes this argument (Interpretation of the meaning):
"He brings the living out of the dead and brings the dead out of the living and brings to life the earth after its lifelessness. And thus will you be brought out."
God is not omnipresent but He sees and is a witness to everything that happens.
Ramblings from the basement (Or poloce station, although i hold doubts that something with your intellect or lack thereof would be even allowed in the Zimbabwe law enforcement) trying to gain more empathy and popularity, and also act as this kind of fake neutral character.
Debunked points thousands of times in this forum itself, let alone in other social media.
Since you present links i present people like Farid Responds, Sapience Institute, Muslim Skeptic, Jake the Metaphysician etc, that destroyed all this 21st century post 2001 garbage propaganda financed by the strongest powers in the world and repeated as parrots by their subjects and online prostitutes.
Another empty argument and misrepresentation which shows a clear lack of understanding of what Islam claims. Already addressed in this place several times.
In Islam we have the best system in this regard. We believe that God sent prophets to all nations, and that he didn’t judge them until He did so. Allah says (Interpretation of the meaning): "We sent a messenger to every community, saying, ‘Worship God and shun false gods.’ Among them were some God guided; misguidance took hold of others. So travel through the earth and see what was the fate of those who denied the truth."
In another verse (Interpretation of the meaning): "Whoever is guided is only guided for [the benefit of] his soul. And whoever errs only errs against it. And no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. And never would We punish until We sent a messenger."
The islamic settlement of the matter is clearly the only one that avoids your fallacies and comes from a Just God, who cares about His subjects and offers them Ultimate Justice. Ignorance? Don't worry, your Lord forgives you or judges you after giving you knowledge.
I'd go even further and say Islam is the only religion among the main ones that actually says kids who die before puberty go to paradise as muslims. Something which for some reason other religions couldn't extend their hand for (Only a Merciful God would do so) and let alone the atheist view, which already deems living children holding the same value as a bacteria in you bathroom.
Since seeing this garbage line of the post trying again to collect sympathy and act as if you hold any knowledge you have just made the Megathread of proof for God's existence now a thing in my agenda.
Stay tuned the next weeks.
This line of concrete evidence for God's existence without any kind of high level scientific investigation already exists and is heavily addressed in Islam. It's called Fitrah or Natural Inclination, and is something that applies to every human being with a sensibly open heart and mind.
The Fitrah is the concept that every human being is born with a inclination to believe in One God.
Allah says (Interpretation of the meaning): So direct your face toward the religion, inclining to truth. [Adhere to] the fitrah of Allah upon which He has created [all] people. No change should there be in the creation of Allah. That is the correct religion, but most of the people do not know.
It is narrated that the Prophet Muhammad (Peace and Blessings be upon him) said: “Every newborn is born in a state of fitrah. His parents make him a Jew, or a Christian, or Magian."
Ibn Taymiyyah said: "Being born on the Fitrah does not necessarily mean that one really believes in Islam at birth, because when Allaah brought us to this life (at birth) we do not know anything. Fitrah refers to having a pure heart which is ready to accept the truth, and that a person would be a Muslim if no one influenced him (while growing up) to change his natural inclination towards Islam."
This gets even deeper when one realizes that the human being, this supreme being on earth, this """animal""" that dominated completely all animals, can't even survive prorperly in a group of he is devoid of any sense of belief and purpose, contrary to millions and millions of other species who are way less intelligent than him. The human being, the only being that believes, yet we are trying to get convinced by edgy teenagers who go around claiming that the only purpose to life is to reproduce and survive, that this sense of belief is meaningless, empty, dumb, product of unguided chemicals and particles if not just a mere consequence.
To go further and prove this, there was a 2 million pound study carried by Oxford university with the purpose to investigate this specific matter, and this were the results
"A three-year international research project, directed by two academics at the University of Oxford, finds that humans have natural tendencies to believe in gods and an afterlife.
The £1.9 million project involved 57 researchers who conducted over 40 separate studies in 20 countries representing a diverse range of cultures.
The studies (both analytical and empirical) conclude that humans are predisposed to believe in God and an afterlife"
Some findings of the Cognition, Religion and Theology Project:
Studies by Emily Reed Burdett and Justin Barrett, from the University of Oxford, suggest that children below the age of five find it easier to believe in some superhuman properties than to understand similar human limitations. Children were asked whether their mother would know the contents of a box in which she could not see. Children aged three believed that their mother and God would always know the contents, but by the age of four, children start to understand that their mothers are not all-seeing and all knowing. However, children may continue to believe in all-seeing, all-knowing supernatural agents, such as a god or gods.Experiments involving adults, conducted by Jing Zhu from Tsinghua University (China), and Natalie Emmons and Jesse Bering from The Queen's University, Belfast, suggest that people across many different cultures instinctively believe that some part of their mind, soul or spirit lives on after-death. The studies demonstrate that people are natural 'dualists' finding it easy to conceive of the separation of the mind and the body.
It clearly does. Thousands of civilizations who happen to be the only ones who survive a long time enough without the necessity to being extremely numerous to be noticed (Contrary to current western society) are a proof of this.
You want to sell us this devoid of purpose life yet everything i see is purposeful. In fact i challenge you to tell me one thing that is happening which holds absoletuly no purpose nor chain explanation, ONE SINGLE EVENT. But, we are supposed to believe that THE MOST IMPORTANT event, the beggining of everything, was just a mere product of randomness and chance (Two words used to recognize one's ignorance but without sounding ignorant, as both of those words don't exists by themselves to begin with. I recommend Firas Zahabi with Joe Rogan debate Scientific Truth for more depth into this)
No, it doesn't logically at all follow that God shouldn't exist. This is one of the biggest fallacies you have used until now, and you have certainly been breaking some fallacious record prior to this one.
Really what you are saying here is "Since quantum physics and mechanics don't follow the traditional 1+1=2, then God doesn’t exist", as if God wasn't described as a Being completely superior to all of this matters Who created them in the first place, and as if that somehow debunked the fact that everything that happens including the smallest of leaves that falls from the tree follows a chain of command driven with purpose, independently of whether it is driven by a subset of quantum physics elements under the set of traditional witnessable logic that we understand.
Apart from the fact that this is another heavily rushed reductive conclusion which is not true obviously (Remember people, a false premise is an incorrect proposition that forms the basis of an argument or syllogism. Since the premise {proposition, or assumption} is not correct, the conclusion drawn may be in error). But besides that, i wish you had the same mental fortitude to describe your moral compasses the same.
Everytime someone from you family died, or you go to a cemetery and see someone mourning their son, etc, please, have the mental strenght to tell them/tell yourself in the face that his mere existence was an accident, and same with yours.
However i doubt it, you didn't even had the balls to say that atheists are devoid of any moral compass which is not naturally driven (Whose only explanation is that it comes instinctively from a Creator) in a involuntary celibates thread, let alone to get out of your basement and do so face to face. This showcases again the miserable existence of the atheist, walking shamefully in the street bowing down his head, knowing he is the same as a bacteria in a bathroom, living a life that is empty and useless.
Translation: "I don't have any explanation for belief instincts, so i will hide in randomness and chance and the long history of human civilization praying (Funny enough) that there is a hole of miliseconds that explains why we have such complex belief systems, and why i rely on those instinctive belief interior systems for my morality and overall daily life"
Ladies and gentlemen, this brings us to the cruz of everything with this user. The other day he confessed that his reason for atheism was that he didn’t get his churro wet with a woman "Muh because of religion". He said and i quote from the atheist hero, this "walking learned philosopher" who "read every religious book there is", TheBuffdon860: "Religion in general is dogshit, but Islam is takes it to another level. Could have lost my virginity time and time again if it wasn’t for this cuck religion"
It always boils down to this with these people. Pure emotion, zero logic, zero mental strenght, zero anything with real value.
It's the famous paradox all over again. "I destroy a house in the last party i had (Or want to have) and my landlord comes to whom i own everything and he asks me for explanations. I have therefore two options: 1-Asking forgiveness, pay reparations, recognize my mistakes, own up, make an effort and improve myself. 2- Deny that the house is owned by the landlord by all means possible, even if it is written on every single square meter of the house (Atheism)
Theorizing without any basis about that which is heavily primitive on it's knowledge. All you have really.
Basically recognizing that you argument is completely rotten from the beggining, and that it does not prove anything at all because it has been destroyed since centuries by now.
They don't even believe in evil so who cares about what atheist philosophers believe? For them evil doesn’t exist, it's a moral construct, a lie, same as good. They themselves give no value to their words (Except to gain money of course)
What certain evils?? Do you have a scale as an atheist??? You don't believe in evil
We believers and muslims in specific do have scales of evil in which all case scenarios are contemplated and explained.
Also it's funny that you can't even realize your own contradictions within few lines. For once you say "It seems intuitively implausible for God to allow certain evils to occur" but then your entire argument relies on human intuition, which is something that as proven above leads to the existence of God and an afterlife being true as proven by the above comments and studies posted.
This is not our point of view. Again you sre misrepresenting completely our position and mixing it up with yours.
YOU are the one as an atheist who believes evim "is more lf an intuitive understanding of a state of mental or physical being according to someone's own perception"
WE believe that evil is clearly defined by God in His scriptures and revelations, period. Same with good.
Irrelevant as first, any study that tries to so will get vastly different responses from civilization to civilization (Just look at homosexuality, which is highly shunned upon in 85% of the world while considered one of the greatest evils and accepted and celebrated the west).
All your argument will be based on made up rating scales of good and evil based on your interpretation and i can see it already.
There clearly is, but you are playing sneaky for anyone who is ignorant. You are sticking with your particular definition that all evil is instinctive somehow and that's the only way to define it. As i said, evil is already defined for us people who believe in religions, especially monotheistic ones. We don't adhere to these empty standards.
No doubt that evil is detectable instinctively, same as good (Greatly affected by the Fitrah), but it is so vastly variable if you just rely on instincts (Which are also irremediably affected by several other events like people and society) that you could pick up 5 psychos together and for them killing a hobo would not be remotely evil to begin with.
False. You wouldn't have only to do that, but also to learn the entirety of human history when you can't even know who stole your banana from the fridge, you would need to descipher all the enviroment of every single individual, all the people he hang out with, every single of his interactions and see how they affected his views, make extremely deep analysis of his thoughts with technology we don't possess (And probably we will never possess), etc
Yes, basically you want the entire blueprint of humanity, an Ultimate Book. Basically you are recognizing the necessity of an Ultimate Guide to define Good and Evil. This as religious people we already have, we muslims call it Qur'an and it explains to us what is good and evil, how we should govern ourselves, etc.
You really are critizicing us for adhering to that which you lack and wish you had. A code of life that gives purpose.
You are so funny bro look at how in laughing...
"SO So hard"
Translation: "I have no idea of what i'm doing and what to use as a starting point because as an atheist i lack any sense of morality and purpose"
Just the hopefully part completely debunks every inch or iota of certainty your argument might have remotely hold
Irrelevant. You don't believe in Good and Evil and the only way for them to exist is if there was an Ultimate Judge who defines them properly.
False. Too many fake premises as usual.
For once, you are the one who believes that all those evil acts you describe are not even evil, they are simply acts that happened and you insinctively individualistically (Supposedly, at least that's what you claim) perceive them as evil whereas the japanese and germans, two of the most "advanced" civilizations in history according to materialistic standards, and were heavily inspired by prominent atheists like Nietchzche, didn't perceive them as such but as an ultimate good.
Really the "Most people part is such an empty argument". Most people could be convinced within 6 months (Don't even doubt this) of current media propaganda that cannibalism is actually good (This study has already been done by the way by a recently famous spanish general).
Most people in Israel hate Palestinians and see them as "human animals". Most people in Nazi Germany hated the jews. This most people dynamic is a waste of time and you are basing your entire argument on it.
As religious people we don't believe that evil doesn’t gave a purpose.
In Islam, paired with the above mentioned ignorance verses, we also believe that the Prophet (Peace and Blessings be upon him) said: "Wondrous is the affair of the believer for there is good for him in every matter and this is not the case with anyone except the believer. If he is happy, then he thanks Allah and thus there is good for him, and if he is harmed, then he shows patience and thus there is good for him."
Islam is the only main religion which addresses the Problem of Evil directly.
Allah says in the Qur'an (Interpretation of the meaning): And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."
This leads us to the blatant assumption and contradiction in the entirety of your argument. You assume that an afterlife where proper justice will apply doesn’t exist.
I could understand this line of argumentation with someone who believes in Karma or any sort of justice concept in which such is served exclusively in this life. But for someone who believes in an afterlife in which accounts will be settled based on what happens in this life??? What's even more amazing, is that your entire argument is based on "instictively" describing and rating evil, yet YOU DENY THE INSTINCTIVE NECESSITY AND BELIEF OF AN AFTERLIFE, already proven above by the famous Oxford study and by the history of humdreds of civilizations set apart which held the same belief.
The basis of your argument is this sort of pseudoinvented morality rating scale based on extremely subjective human instinct but then you scratch all human instinct and it's predisposition of belief in an afterlife once it doesn't serve your purpose of denying a Just God. It's like playing a basketball match but you do it without the basket because it doesn't serve your purpose since you know you are doomed to lose the game in any scenario.
Allah describes your kind in the best of words in His Holy Book (Interpretation of the meaning): And they denied and followed their inclinations. But for every matter is a [time of] settlement.
Ireelevant. God gives us free will and tests us on it. We are not angels who follow all the commands of God, we are given the option to be better than angels or worse than animals depending on our decisions, and have better or worse rewards than them in our afterlife.
Allah says (Interpretation of the meaning): Do people think once they say, “We believe,” that they will be left without being put to the test? Or do the evildoers ˹simply˺ think that they will escape Us? How wrong is their judgment! Whoever hopes for the meeting with Allah, ˹let them know that˺ Allah’s appointed time is sure to come. He is the All-Hearing, All-Knowing. We have commanded people to honour their parents. But if they urge you to associate with Me what you have no knowledge of, then do not obey them. To Me you will ˹all˺ return, and then I will inform you of what you used to do.
Whatever it seems to you is completely irrelevant and not only that, but baseless as already proven.
Free will allows both good and bad to happen. God commands good to happen and forbids bad, makes rulings based on such and promoting the first.
Anything outside that is not free will. Funny that this comes from the people who constantly champion "Freedom and liberty" but when they are given the option they cry because it doesn't fit their purposes and desires during that specific moment
God is not made up of parts. We believe that God has hands, a face, etc, (Depending on the school of thought), but we don't believe those can be considered parts at all but only a Unique One Being.
Allah says: "He is the First and the Last, the Evident and the Immanent; and He has full knowledge of all things"
We believe that Allah is Al Ahad (The Unique), and He says (Interpretation of the meaning): There is nothing like Him, for He (alone) is the All-Hearing, All-Seeing.”
And He also says (Interpretation of the meaning): Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him.
Ibn Taymiyyah said: "The word “body” is very general. It could refer to something that was put together, of which the parts were separate then they were put together; or something that can be divided and separated into parts; or something that consists of physical material and an image; or something that consists of single particles that are put together, but Allah, may He be exalted, is far above all that; or something that was separate then came together; or something that can be divided and separated, meaning that one part of the thing separates from another part; or it may indicate some other meaning that refers to something that is put together – which is impossible in the case of Allah."
The contingency argument is one of the golden bullets. The argument that simply can't be debunked by any current means. Will be addressed in another thread Insha Allah.
Basically you are recognizing that God exists without doing so.
All your thread is like this.
You destroyed your entire argument with one word, "seems".
Your entire argument is destroyed with the word "Agency" and the definition you give to it, which is a misrepresentation that makes it seem as if we believe God is acting with the permission of another being (Something which would lead to an impossible Infinite Regress which would lead to believe in the existence of an Ultimate Creator as the only credible argument) and also based on that God is inside and limited by time. We believe God is Eternal and is not limited by time, and we also believe that this concept cannot be completely conceived by beings who are stucked inside time like us, but only thought and reflected upon. This is proof of the superiority of God in regards to humankind and to creation if anything, not the contrary.
God is not limited by time and doesn’t have to make a decision to exist. You are limited by time and you are making God a human being who is also limited by time to fit your argument. One of the contentions against Jesus (Peace and Blessings be upon him) being God by the way
No, He is not inside time. He doesn't have to "push a button" or "decide" to cease existing because those concepts are outside of Him, He is not subject to them like we are.
Yes, His non existence is impossible, therefore His existence is Neceessary
Impossible: not possible; unable to be, exist, happen, etc. unable to be done, performed, effected, etc.
Necessary: determined, existing, or happening by natural laws or predestination; inevitable.
It doesn't have any mechanism to cease existing because He is outside time. This is really the "God can't lift a rock stronger than him that He created" argument
This argument is not valid at all because the power of Allaah is not connected to irrationalities and contradictions. God won't do anything that goes against His attributes.
Calling yourself an "High IQ thinker" is the biggest overstatement i have seen since the "Most moral army in the world" claim made by the israelis
Yes. And that's why atheism is deemed to never prosper and dissapear.
Just the fact that we need God to prosper and we know we need Him, is a proof of His existence to anyone with a sane intellect.
Translation: "Bla bla bla i'm so open minded bla bla bla give me like give me react give me validation in an incel forum"
@SecularIslamist @Fiqh @Hamdan @Michael Myers @emeraldglass @coispet @wsada @TsarTsar444 @HarrierDuBois @st.hamudi but 6‘5 @RAMU KAKA @STAMPEDE @try2beme @SubhumanCurrycel @bndar.337
biggest waffler ever
