Do people with anterior open bites have shorter midfaces?

[mvp2v1]

People with deep bites tend to have longer midfaces according to some sources. Certainly is the case with me and some others I have seen. This is because the maxilla is excessively CW rotated. I was thinking perhaps anterior open bites are the opposite of deep bites and if that were true I would expect them to have shorter midfaces. Anyone know if this is true?

 

[mvp2v1]

I found this from google AI:
"
According to a study, children with anterior
open bite
(AOB) who have a short face have a more severe AOB. A long face type is often associated with AOB, which is characterized by an increased lower anterior facial height. Other characteristics of an AOB include an increased gonial angle and an increased
maxillary
mandibular
plane angle.
"

Substantial Improvements in Facial Morphology through Surgical-Orthodontic Treatment: A Case Report and Literature Review - PMC

Background and Objectives: The long face type is associated with excessive vertical facial growth and most often with anterior open bite. In many cases of anterior open bite of high severity associated with bimaxillary dento-alveolar protrusion, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Relationship between facial morphology, anterior open bite and non-nutritive sucking habits during the primary dentition stage - PMC

Non-nutritive sucking habits (NNSHs) can cause occlusal alterations, including anterior open bite (AOB). However, not all patients develop this malocclusion. Therefore, the emergence of AOB does not depend on deleterious habits, only. Investigate a ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[mvp2v1]

So I have been looking over a bunch of moderate to severe anterior open bites, and my own personal evaluation is that they tend to have a shorter distance from the eye to the *top* of the philtrum (bottom-most edge of nose). Im not doing a technical analysis though so take this with a grain of salt.

They all tend to have long philtrums the more severe the open bite, which makes the usual midface measurement less useful in analyzing my question. (question: Can anterior open bites be vaguely considered as the opposite of a deep bite (which could vaguely be considered a posterior open bite))

 

[mvp2v1]

Okay, so my conclusion is that indeed anterior open bites can be considered the opposite of a deep bite. Anterior open bites lead to shorter midfaces when measuring from the eyes to the top of the philtrum (end of nose).
Deep bites display an increased distance from the eyes to the top of the philtrum.


@RealSurgerymax you may find this observation interesting

 

[RealSurgerymax]

Okay, so my conclusion is that indeed anterior open bites can be considered the opposite of a deep bite. Anterior open bites lead to shorter midfaces when measuring from the eyes to the top of the philtrum (end of nose).

@RealSurgerymax you may find this observation interesting

there are a lot of possible combinations of growth patterns so I don't think this generalization matters but deep bits make shorter anterior faces and anterior open bites make longer anterior faces in principle.

 

[mirrormogger]

kind of true, my bimax is reducing my philtrum length a bit and bottom of nose up a tiny bit

 

[mvp2v1]

there are a lot of possible combinations of growth patterns so I don't think this generalization matters but deep bits make shorter anterior faces and anterior open bites make longer anterior faces in principle.

I agree when measuring from eyes to the end of face, but when the end point measurement is the end of the nose and start of philtrum we find the opposite where deep bites are longer and open bites are shorter.

So to be clear:

Deep bites have shorter faces but longer midfaces, and anterior open bites have longer faces but "shorter midfaces" (in quotes bc anterior open bites have elongated philtrum which means we must measure the midface from the eyes to the top of philtrum)

 

[mvp2v1]

Another question I have here is if perhaps the posterior maxilla may be more attractive in deep bites then in AOBs. Ill have to check this tomarrow.

 

[mvp2v1]

Another question I have here is if perhaps the posterior maxilla may be more attractive in deep bites then in AOBs. Ill have to check this tomarrow.

Some more interesting thoughts on these dystrophies:

As these 2 are opposites we also find that in the posterior region of the maxilla/palate, we have an over-eruption of sorts in the back in the case of AOBs and under-eruption for deep bites. In the front of course we have over-erruption (overlap) of the incisors in deep bites and under-erruption of the incisors in open bites.

This is also why we see that deep bites lead to shorter faces and AOBs lead to longer faces.

 

[mvp2v1]

My research on this has made me revisit this thread:

THE FIRST CCW ROTATION IN PSL HISTORY HAS BEEN OBTAINED WITH MSE

Holy shit, this is literally history in the making for looksmaxxers, someone on here who has got MSE with Dr. Ting has been incisor chewing falim 8 hours a day and frontally tip mewing whenever not chewing Dr. Ting got pissed as fuck at him and asked him what he did to his maxilla to rotate it...

looksmax.org

When I had first seen this thread I thought it was nothing special. Maybe just tooth intrusion and thats it.

But after my research from this thread I actually think applying anterior forces to try and create AOB's is legit for anyone with sub chad midface ratios. After this your left with your lack of forward growth which is a quite a bit easier to solve then cw maxilla. (And possibly your fucked up maxilla-mandible alignment (which is easy to fix))

If any MSE cell has a shit midface and tries this lmk

 

[mvp2v1]

Another question I have here is if perhaps the posterior maxilla may be more attractive in deep bites then in AOBs. Ill have to check this tomarrow.

For this idea I had 2 data points that allow me to have a hunch:

First is my own case as compared to my brothers. My brother has normal occlusion with a mild overbite but very vertically grown face. His orbitals and cheekbones are both very low. On the other hand there is me, with a deep bite and posterior open bite. I have notably higher cheekbones then him and more attractive orbitals/eyes.

This is further backed up by this description of posterior open bites by Mike Mew who describes those with POBs as being more attractive:



Obviously not strong evidence at all but its enough for me to place my bets.

Why would this be the case?
I think for some reason whatever was the posture or habit that caused the POB also ensured that posterior region would not remodel verticaly. I actualy have a slightly bilateral POB and you can see one side is more attractive than the other:

Notice how one half of my face is more vertically remodeled.

 

[mvp2v1]

I think the cause of an AOB is tongue support in the anterior region and none in the posterior region. So you end up with a shitty posterior maxilla and an attractive anterior maxilla. I know this sound counterintuitive given how shit a severe AOB looks like in the anterior region. But really it only looks shit due to the unfavorable displacement of soft tissues from a bad posterior maxilla (and a lack of forward and lateral growth).

 

[Bitchwhipper2]

Id say its the other way around

The only guy I know with a deep bite has a short midface and the only guy i know with an open bite has a long one

 

[mvp2v1]

The only guy I know with a deep bite has a short midface and the only guy i know with an open bite has a long one

you need to measure midface length to the base of nose not lips. As for deep bites its well known that deep bites have longer midfaces. You can see mike mew talk about it here:

And I thought there was some study looking at this but i cant find it. Your friend may not have a deep bite.

Another interesting data point:

Won moon seems to consider them opposites (found on his insta)

Its not clear, however it seems he is bringing the posterior palate up for open bites and the posterior palate down for deep bites, which at leased makes sense from a surface level. it would require an actual in depth look into both these facial deformation patterns to really know.

 

[mvp2v1]

Another question i have here is if the posterior palate is lower than the anterior palate in AOBs, this may reveal some interesting things about the nature of craniofacial dystrophy.

 

[Melly]

How can ppl with deep bite have longer midfaces on avarage when they have a lack of anteriorfacial height? And Mike Mew explaination of orthotropics perspective doesnt make sense bc all of patients with deep bites lack maxillary anterior height so when they smile their teeth barely showing how can u move the maxilla up and forward when it soposed to be downgrafted and moved forward huh?

 

[Melly]

muh orthotropics muh anterior nasial spine moves upwards jfl at this low iq theory "longer midface bc maxilla excessively cw rotationed" fucking caging at this shit when all deep bite ppl have literally overly flat occlusional plane

 

[Melly]

Alright i went through deep bite threads and saw data ok u are right but my midface ratio is 1,016:1 and my nose isnt long jfl so idk may be iam exception

 

[mtcut3plush]

But after my research from this thread I actually think applying anterior forces to try and create AOB's is legit for anyone with sub chad midface ratios. After this your left with your lack of forward growth which is a quite a bit easier to solve then cw maxilla. (And possibly your fucked up maxilla-mandible alignment (which is easy to fix))

If any MSE cell has a shit midface and tries this lmk

is mse really necessary ?

 

[gooner888]

If I have a deep bite and I mouthbreathe to get an anterior open bite will it balance it out and give me a normal bite?

 

[mvp2v1]

is mse really necessary ?

No, but it seems to make getting change easier. alternatively I could do NCR. But really u don’t need either. They just make things faster it seems

 

[mvp2v1]

Alright i went through deep bite threads and saw data ok u are right but my midface ratio is 1,016:1 and my nose isnt long jfl so idk may be iam exception

if u want to send me a pic of your front profile that may be interesting.

 

[mtcut3plush]

No, but it seems to make getting change easier. alternatively I could do NCR. But really u don’t need either. They just make things faster it seems

lets chat in private

 

[mvp2v1]

If I have a deep bite and I mouthbreathe to get an anterior open bite will it balance it out and give me a normal bite?

No mouthbreathing is not how u get an anterior open bite. For it you would have to place your tongue between your front incisors. I wouldn’t suggest trying to cause a AOB this way though. Instead just do anterior chewing and anterior clenching.

 

[Melly]

if u want to send me a pic of your front profile that may be interesting.

No but the guy on my profile picture has class 2 division 2 malocclusion aka deep overbite with strong chin
In pics of him i measured his midface very close to 1:1

 

[mvp2v1]

No but the guy on my profile picture has class 2 division 2 malocclusion aka deep overbite with strong chin
In pics of him i measured his midface very close to 1:1
View attachment 2821435View attachment 2821439

He is looking up in that pic both actualy. Common posture for deepbite cels. Ideal would be if the eyebrows are inline with the top of ears that’s solid posture. Also midface length is an imperfect measure of deep bite. There is variance for many reasons. And deep bite individuals do tend to have stronger chins than would usually be the case for such verticaly grown maxilla’s.

 

[mvp2v1]

Is jutting legit for CCW rotation or not?

I'm low iq what do you mean by jutting? Holding lower teeth in front of upper? How does that put force anywhere?

looksmax.org

"
Anterior resorbed/moved up, posterior therefore deposited/moved down= CCW, can lead to open bite

Posterior resorbed/moved up, anterior therefore deposited/moved down= CW, can lead to deep bite
"

Interesting

 

[mvp2v1]

I feel like im getting to a point of understanding deep bite that I could create a model showing the morphological change that starts with improper forces in and around the jaws/oral complex that ends in the deep bite phenotype of cfd.

Simply put: back of the maxilla goes up, front falls down and back.

So for example there are many deep bite fixes:

Extruding teeth: alone this is incorrect
intruding incisors: Alone this is incorrect
Repositioning jaws: Alone this is incorrect.

there are many ways one might approach fixing deep bite, but it appears to me that the best solution at least from a remodeling perspective is the classic J Mew approach of throwing the incisors out and forward creating an anterior open bite of sorts. etc
Surgically I suspect it would involve an anterior cut to the maxilla (forget the name of the surgery). Obv you would need at least a lf1 +bsso etc to go with it.

 

[iam good boy]

No but the guy on my profile picture has class 2 division 2 malocclusion aka deep overbite with strong chin
In pics of him i measured his midface very close to 1:1
View attachment 2821435View attachment 2821439

 

[mvp2v1]

View attachment 2842771

something is wrong with his occlusion it appears but I cant really make a good assessment based on a shitty gif. I would need solid frontal and side pictures as well as good pictures of his occlusion. Otherwise I'm just guessing

 

[Melly]

View attachment 2842771

 

[mvp2v1]

View attachment 2843746View attachment 2843747View attachment 2843749

looks like a deep bite, do you have any other pics of his occlusion? whats his name?

 

[Melly]

looks like a deep bite, do you have any other pics of his occlusion? whats his name?

Mads mikkelsen
Yeah he has is curve of spee in exessive
Look at lower front teeth

 

[Deleted member 45780]

People with deep bites tend to have longer midfaces according to some sources. Certainly is the case with me and some others I have seen. This is because the maxilla is excessively CW rotated. I was thinking perhaps anterior open bites are the opposite of deep bites and if that were true I would expect them to have shorter midfaces. Anyone know if this is true?

How to fix

 

[Jerryterry129]

My research on this has made me revisit this thread:

THE FIRST CCW ROTATION IN PSL HISTORY HAS BEEN OBTAINED WITH MSE

Holy shit, this is literally history in the making for looksmaxxers, someone on here who has got MSE with Dr. Ting has been incisor chewing falim 8 hours a day and frontally tip mewing whenever not chewing Dr. Ting got pissed as fuck at him and asked him what he did to his maxilla to rotate it...

looksmax.org

When I had first seen this thread I thought it was nothing special. Maybe just tooth intrusion and thats it.

But after my research from this thread I actually think applying anterior forces to try and create AOB's is legit for anyone with sub chad midface ratios. After this your left with your lack of forward growth which is a quite a bit easier to solve then cw maxilla. (And possibly your fucked up maxilla-mandible alignment (which is easy to fix))

If any MSE cell has a shit midface and tries this lmk

So how would we do this? A splint over the front teeth? A Mouthgaurd cut in half over just the front teeth? And then the molars erupt?

 

[mvp2v1]

So how would we do this? A splint over the front teeth? A Mouthgaurd cut in half over just the front teeth? And then the molars erupt?

yes those are good ways. I have also experimented with using one of those jawtrainers and pulsating upwards on upper incisors. This is not a good method, I only do it due to issues with my lower incisors which make anterior chewing more difficult for me.

You want to anterior chew for as long as possible.

 

[Jerryterry129]

yes those are good ways. I have also experimented with using one of those jawtrainers and pulsating upwards on upper incisors. This is not a good method, I only do it due to issues with my lower incisors which make anterior chewing more difficult for me.

You want to anterior chew for as long as possible.

Idk if intruding the front teeth is good, because the philtrum will have extra skin etc. but extruding molars and back teeth is good

You know what’s funny is that starecta thing, people complaining it’s making their face longer. Well it’s placed on the molars lmao. I imagine if it was placed on the front teeth instead it would do the opposite

 

[mvp2v1]

Idk if intruding the front teeth is good

Depends on the case. Some cases the soft tissues of the lips and philtrum are being stretched and decompressing would improve the lips and philtrum.

people complaining it’s making their face longer

Could u link examples of this? Does it extrude the teeth or just cause a posterior open bite?

 

[diditeverbegin]

For this idea I had 2 data points that allow me to have a hunch:

First is my own case as compared to my brothers. My brother has normal occlusion with a mild overbite but very vertically grown face. His orbitals and cheekbones are both very low. On the other hand there is me, with a deep bite and posterior open bite. I have notably higher cheekbones then him and more attractive orbitals/eyes.

This is further backed up by this description of posterior open bites by Mike Mew who describes those with POBs as being more attractive:



Obviously not strong evidence at all but its enough for me to place my bets.

Why would this be the case?
I think for some reason whatever was the posture or habit that caused the POB also ensured that posterior region would not remodel verticaly. I actualy have a slightly bilateral POB and you can see one side is more attractive than the other:
View attachment 2778415
Notice how one half of my face is more vertically remodeled.

Life fuel bhai

 

[diditeverbegin]

Idk if intruding the front teeth is good, because the philtrum will have extra skin etc. but extruding molars and back teeth is good

You know what’s funny is that starecta thing, people complaining it’s making their face longer. Well it’s placed on the molars lmao. I imagine if it was placed on the front teeth instead it would do the opposite

How would one extrude the molars?

 

[Jerryterry129]

No mouthbreathing is not how u get an anterior open bite. For it you would have to place your tongue between your front incisors. I wouldn’t suggest trying to cause a AOB this way though. Instead just do anterior chewing and anterior clenching.

I’ve written threads on this.


Edit nvm I see I’ve already replied earlier lol

 

[Deleted member 166865]

@mvp2v1, Nice thread. What do u think of teeth intrusion for shortening midface? Specifically in the lower maxilla are (philtrum)?

 

[Deleted member 166865]

Idk if intruding the front teeth is good, because the philtrum will have extra skin etc.

Not really, philtrum is attached not only to the nose base as u can see it outside the mouth just watching somebody’s face in front of but also it’s attached to the alveolar bone inside and incisors intrusion leads not simply to incisors being pushed inside the bone but incisors pushing up the bone leads for it’s remodeling via shortening, the point of attachment would move upper which would lead to philtrum shortening. At least what I found (but there are not many sources on the topic tbh)

 

[mvp2v1]

@mvp2v1, Nice thread. What do u think of teeth intrusion for shortening midface? Specifically in the lower maxilla are (philtrum)?

yeah can be good if that's your issue, like in the case of open bites.

 

[Deleted member 166865]

yeah can be good if that's your issue, like in the case of open bites.

In my case there is no open bite or deep bite and etc but few days ago I found there is some minimum gum visible in side when I’m smiling (but not in front). Also overall seems like my upper maxilla is not or very slightly recessed and shorter vertically than average but philtrum is longer then average and I assume there could be gummy smile in front if philtrum been average length so I assume there is a vertical maxilla excess specifically in a lower maxilla.

Basically like this famous case but face is not shallow in the posterior projection and upper maxilla shorter and not stretched and facial angle not that dramatic.

So basically lower part of maxilla alike this dude

 

[Deleted member 166865]

In my case there is no open bite or deep bite and etc but few days ago I found there is some minimum gum visible in side when I’m smiling (but not in front). Also overall seems like my upper maxilla is not or very slightly recessed and shorter vertically than average but philtrum is longer then average and I assume there could be gummy smile in front if philtrum been average length so I assume there is a vertical maxilla excess specifically in a lower maxilla.

Basically like this famous case but face is not shallow in the posterior projection and upper maxilla shorter and not stretched and facial angle not that dramatic.

So basically lower part of maxilla alike this dude

So I wonder if it’s possible to get intrusion without clear gummy smile, open or deep bite for both incisors and molars to achieve vertical shortening along with ccw rotation of mandible. So kinda lite version of maxillary impaction

 

[LackEmpathyTherefor]

No but the guy on my profile picture has class 2 division 2 malocclusion aka deep overbite with strong chin
In pics of him i measured his midface very close to 1:1
View attachment 2821435View attachment 2821439

looks like a deep bite, do you have any other pics of his occlusion? whats his name?

Legit I think I have very similar occlusion/sideprofile/chin
Obviously he has better angularity and I have way bigger mentolabial fold .
Iam scheduled for a trimax, with CW (short face), and genio set back because of how forward grown my chin is.

And thats my bite. What’s also interesting is I’ve learnt recently that the subhuman shape of my lips is directly correlated to my incorrect bite.
I have biretrusion of both lips according to my surgeon.

 

[mvp2v1]

View attachment 4073837View attachment 4073840
Legit I think I have very similar occlusion/sideprofile/chin
Obviously he has better angularity and I have way bigger mentolabial fold .
Iam scheduled for a trimax, with CW (short face), and genio set back because of how forward grown my chin is.

And thats my bite. What’s also interesting is I’ve learnt recently that the subhuman shape of my lips is directly correlated to my incorrect bite.
I have biretrusion of both lips according to my surgeon.
View attachment 4073845View attachment 4073848

deep bite end of story

 

[Azie555]

I found this from google AI:
"
According to a study, children with anterior
open bite
(AOB) who have a short face have a more severe AOB. A long face type is often associated with AOB, which is characterized by an increased lower anterior facial height. Other characteristics of an AOB include an increased gonial angle and an increased
maxillary
mandibular
plane angle.
"

Substantial Improvements in Facial Morphology through Surgical-Orthodontic Treatment: A Case Report and Literature Review - PMC

Background and Objectives: The long face type is associated with excessive vertical facial growth and most often with anterior open bite. In many cases of anterior open bite of high severity associated with bimaxillary dento-alveolar protrusion, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Relationship between facial morphology, anterior open bite and non-nutritive sucking habits during the primary dentition stage - PMC

Non-nutritive sucking habits (NNSHs) can cause occlusal alterations, including anterior open bite (AOB). However, not all patients develop this malocclusion. Therefore, the emergence of AOB does not depend on deleterious habits, only. Investigate a ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

i used to have a very deep bite as a kid. I was very disgusted by my face being short. I wanted a longer face as a kid And then i had orthodontic trestment and fixed my bite. Now i have a long midface as a flaw.

 

[mvp2v1]

i used to have a very deep bite as a kid. I was very disgusted by my face being short. I wanted a longer face as a kid And then i had orthodontic trestment and fixed my bite. Now i have a long midface as a flaw.

You always had a long midface as a flaw. Your lower third was too short. They fixed it, but they didn't fix your long nasal aperture.