Is jutting legit for CCW rotation or not?

[clockwiseRotator]

I'm low iq what do you mean by jutting? Holding lower teeth in front of upper? How does that put force anywhere?

 

[antiantifa]

@betamanlet
@Babushkacatlady

Nothing suggests their faces stopped growing with age. If anything, the oldest men typically had biggest faces. Facial size is also the biggest cue to age in humans.

 

[Babushkacatlady]

@antiantifa

You bring up some interesting points. I personally think you need a combination of both light and consistent and a bit heavier intermittent forces for optimal effects. Most people mew too hard in my view and this causes the hard mewing thing where everyone just winds up deepening their palate, especially since the back third of the palate has the most porus and thin bone. I have seen countless stories by this point about how people focused too much on the back third and messed up their face. The tongue should be very light, kinda like a tumor slowly expanding and warping the skull as this isn't a pushing exercise as most believe.

I would be skeptical of looking at bone strength research because most of that just has to do with more bone matrix formation (Wolffs law) which just thickens the bone on the inside with no to minimal change on the exterior, since we are trying to change bone shape and position rather than strength.

Adult faces DO NOT stop growing contrary to popular belief, it is just that this rate significantly slows down. Take any man at age 20 and at age 30, the structure of the face looks significantly different. Few at 20 look like men, they still look like boys, but the same can't be said at 30 (but who knows maybe the estrogens in the water might change that).

Faces were made to constantly grow for a variety of reasons. One was that since the teeth were constantly being worn down, the face had to compensate by growing so that you wouldn't wind up with short face syndrome. Another was to compensate for minor injuries that one acquired through life. Yet another was just general adaptability to changing soft tissue structures like the airway and growing brain.
Hormones like testosterone also may take some effect here, perhaps targeting certain regions of the face more than others .

While growth is a good thing, the direction/way it grows is arguably more important. Mouthbreathers who fail to correct it WILL get worse with age even if they are adults, the rate is just slower. This is why you see a lot of jaw surgery relapse, along muscles pulling the face back to where it was. One must then ask themselves, "if those muscles can pull the face back, can't those same muscles pull it more optimally?"

 

[antiantifa]

@antiantifa

You bring up some interesting points. I personally think you need a combination of both light and consistent and a bit heavier intermittent forces for optimal effects. Most people mew too hard in my view and this causes the hard mewing thing where everyone just winds up deepening their palate, especially since the back third of the palate has the most porus and thin bone. I have seen countless stories by this point about how people focused too much on the back third and messed up their face.

I would be skeptical of looking at bone strength research because most of that just has to do with more bone matrix formation (Wolffs law) which just thickens the bone on the inside with no to minimal change on the exterior, since we are trying to change bone shape and position rather than strength.

Adult faces DO NOT stop growing contrary to popular belief, it is just that this rate significantly slows down. Take any man at age 20 and at age 30, the structure of the face looks significantly different. Few at 20 look like men, they still look like boys, but the same can't be said at 30 (but who knows maybe the estrogens in the water might change that).

Faces were made to constantly grow for a variety of reasons. One was that since the teeth were constantly being worn down, the face had to compensate by growing so that you wouldn't wind up with short face syndrome. Another was to compensate for minor injuries that one acquired through life. Yet another was just general adaptability to changing soft tissue structures like the airway and growing brain.

Actually this is something well researched: constant force retards suture growth, while cyclical force increases it.

I know for a fact my sutures have opened because of mewing because my whole face has become flexible, I can move my bones in any direction and there are all kinds of cracking sounds being produced.

If I pull on my maxilla for example I get cracking sounds, then they stop even if I pull more, however if I push on it, it'll crack again. And I can constantly crack the maxilla bone like this by pulling, pushing, pulling, pushing. Of course I don't because I don't want to break off half of my face and die.

Suture growth modulated by the oscillatory component of micromechanical strain - PubMed

Sutures are fibrous connective tissue articulations between intramembranous craniofacial bones. Sutures are composed of fibroblastic cells with their matrices in the center and osteogenic cells in the periphery producing a matrix that is mineralized during skeletal growth. Whether oscillatory...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"Thus, the oscillatory component of cyclic force or more precisely the resulting cyclic strain experienced in sutures is a potent stimulus for sutural growth. The increased sutural growth by cyclic mechanical strain in the tensed NFS and compressed PMS suggests that both microscale tension and compression induce anabolic sutural growth response."

Cyclic Loading Effects on Craniofacial Strain and Sutural Growth in Pigs

Current craniofacial growth modification devices utilize static forces but cyclic forces are believed by some to be more effective. The latter has not been evaluated in large animal models, and it is not known how such forces are transmitted to distant ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"After validating the device, cyclic (2.5Hz) tensile loads were applied unilaterally to the NFS of abattoir pig heads (n=6), with strain gages on multiple sutures. Similar loading was applied to 3-month old live pigs (Sus scrofa, n=4 and 1 sham) 30 minutes/day for 5 days.
Daily spurts of cyclic load caused sutural strain throughout the skull. The regime likely enhances suture growth and may be therapeutically useful."

The study I previously used wasn't on sutures, but still showed an impressive 15% increase in total bone area(2D), the 3D effect on the volume would probably be even higher than 15%, though my trig math is horrible.

Btw the study on the suture growth on pigs was done on young pigs.

Specifically this one:

Cyclic Loading Effects on Craniofacial Strain and Sutural Growth in Pigs

Current craniofacial growth modification devices utilize static forces but cyclic forces are believed by some to be more effective. The latter has not been evaluated in large animal models, and it is not known how such forces are transmitted to distant ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[antiantifa]

@Babushkacatlady

The thing is how does the mandible even grow? I am sure it's sutures are fully fused even in young adults, while a lot of sutures around maxilla and zygo stay permenantly open/half-open for lifetime.

Some kind of a weird way:

It's funny cause after I looksminned from too much chewing I had a lot of pain at the rear of my whole mandible, then my ramus became giga wide in a few months.

Now it's like bone-to-bone 4 cm wide, so I guess jaw loading can still cause growth in the mandible even in adults.

 

[Babushkacatlady]

@antiantifa

I don't think the main mode of optimal change in the maxilla is sutural for an adult, I think it comes on an individual cellular basis with maybe some small sutural changes. The sutures were also designed as shock absorbers from tough chewing and some research shows that sutures prematurely close if there is inadequate stimulation. Chewing can also stimulate sutures too since it is cyclic.

The mandible grows on a cellular basis, where cells are removed from the back and added onto the front, not suturally.

Other cranial bones changing are mainly sutural with some remodeling shape changes (like the cranial base after puberty).

 

[betamanlet]

I know for a fact my sutures have opened because of mewing because my whole face has become flexible, I can move my bones in any direction and there are all kinds of cracking sounds being produced.

In which all places do you experience sutural cracking? I only experience these in my posterior skull. I wonder if wearing retractive headgear every night as a child resulted in premature sutural ossification in the circummaxillary sutures.

 

[betamanlet]

The thing is how does the mandible even grow?

Makes sense that if the mandibular molars are pushed backwards by the maxillary arch, the mandible would respond as shown in the pic, in order to create additional room in between the molars and the ramii.

 

[Babushkacatlady]

Makes sense that if the mandibular molars are pushed backwards by the maxillary arch, the mandible would respond as shown in the pic, in order to create additional room in between the molars and the ramii.

I think this is part of the equation. We also should note the ramus "uprights" (moves back relative to the forward growing mandible) during pubertal growth, making room for 3rd molars (wisdom teeth), or at least it should.

 

[antiantifa]

In which all places do you experience sutural cracking? I only experience these in my posterior skull. I wonder if wearing retractive headgear every night as a child resulted in premature sutural ossification in the circummaxillary sutures.

Idk, I can't tell, there are multiple cracks, I think mostly around sphenoid? Also my left maxillary-zygo suture feels open, but the right one I can't feel the hole.

 

[antiantifa]

@antiantifa

I don't think the main mode of optimal change in the maxilla is sutural for an adult, I think it comes on an individual cellular basis with maybe some small sutural changes. The sutures were also designed as shock absorbers from tough chewing and some research shows that sutures prematurely close if there is inadequate stimulation. Chewing can also stimulate sutures too since it is cyclic.

The mandible grows on a cellular basis, where cells are removed from the back and added onto the front, not suturally.

Other cranial bones changing are mainly sutural with some remodeling shape changes (like the cranial base after puberty).

Whether the growth is through sutures or direct bone growth, it's undeniable that the adult face grows with age as you said, it's also undeniable that cyclical forces, proper nutrition and maybe even certain anabolics/growth hormone-analogues would optimize that growth.

As you can see in the graph above even at 30 years old the peak of mandible growth hasn't been reached.

27.5mm at 35 years old, 25mm at 20 years old, 22mm at 10 years old.
Basically growth in jaw size from 10-20 is about the same as 20-35.

And this is only mandible length in average adults who don't stimulate bone growth that much(don't forcefully swallow every few seconds, don't eat hard food, barely do volume of chewing).

This study shows growth hormone grows mandible in GH-deficient adults and that the age of initiation doesn't matter:

Growth hormone, gender and face shape in Prader-Willi syndrome - PubMed

Prader-Willi syndrome is a neurodevelopmental disorder resulting from the absence of expression of paternally expressed gene(s) in a highly imprinted region of chromosome 15q11-13. The physical phenotype includes evidence of growth retardation due to relative growth hormone deficiency, small...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Another interesting fact is that people with gigantism have facial growth through-out their lifespan.

But it's not the aesthetic type of growth:

 

[Deleted member 5969]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
I HAD BRACES WITH ELASTICS, AND 4 MOLARS AND A WISDOM TOOTH REMOVAL
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

 

[antiantifa]

@Babushkacatlady

Also check out this interesting study:

The Relationship between Bone Remodeling and the Clockwise Rotation of the Facial Skeleton: A Computed Tomographic Imaging-Based Evaluation - PubMed

Age-related changes of the midfacial skeleton occurred independently of gender, but at various time points in different locations. The observed changes seem to be driven by a bone resorption center located in the posterior maxilla, rather than by a rotational movement of the facial skeleton.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"Age-related changes of the mid-facial skeleton occurred independently of gender, but at various time points in different locations. The observed changes seem to be driven by a bone resorption center located in the posterior maxilla, rather than by a rotational movement of the facial skeleton."

If resorption can happen at posterior maxilla, I am sure deposition can happen as well.

 

[antiantifa]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
I HAD BRACES WITH ELASTICS, AND 4 MOLARS AND A WISDOM TOOTH REMOVAL
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

F for Respect, fallen comrade.

 

[antiantifa]

@Babushkacatlady

Sorry for the spam, this study directly shows that in adults there is possible growth in midpalatal and pterygopalatine sutures:

"Conclusions: Midpalatal suture was successfully split by MSE in late adolescents, and the opening was almost perfectly parallel in a sagittal direction. Regarding the extent of transverse asymmetry of the split, on average one half of ANS moved more than the contralateral one by 1.1 mm. Pterygopalatine suture was split in its lower region by MSE, as the pyramidal process was pulled out from the pterygoid process. Patient gender and age had a negligible influence on suture opening for the age group considered in the study."

14-26 years old were the participants age.

This is also a very good blog to read:

When does midpalatal suture close ?

Summerized by : Dr.Hani Alhebshi. When does midpalatal suture close ? Upon searching the web , I found some useful articles answering this question. It has been stated that there is quite wide vari…

sorthoclub.wordpress.com

"There are conflicting views about the closure of midpalatal suture. The chronological age does not seem to be a reliable indicator for a real morphological status of the midpalatal suture closure. According to earlier studies, sutures of the cranial vault start to obliterate during the third decade of life. According to Persson and Thilander15 earliest obliteration can be seen in the posterior palate of a 15-year-old girl and there may be no obliteration at all in a 27-year-old female. Earliest obliteration in male was found in a 21 years and no obliteration at all in a 32-year-old male. According to Sperber,16 obliteration may start in adolescence, but complete fusion is rarely found before 30 years of age."

This might be the suture I keep hearing cracking in, it always felt around sphenoid. The bone around the cracking suture also directly connected to the pterygoid muscle, because I can use this muscle to crack it in both directions(forward by swallowing really hard, backwards by pushing on my mandible).

 

[antiantifa]

In which all places do you experience sutural cracking? I only experience these in my posterior skull. I wonder if wearing retractive headgear every night as a child resulted in premature sutural ossification in the circummaxillary sutures.

Try maybe opening this suture? Just push against your mandible while jutting your mandible forward, then reverse it by thumb-pulling on your maxilla forward, this works really well for me, often I am afraid of using too much force for fear of literally ripping my maxilla out.

The more I do this, the harder the cracks become and the more movement I feel. It's a scary exercise ngl.

The exact way is :

Push 3 seconds against the mandible while jutting as counter-force(keep mandible position relatively stable, don't over-extend it), then pull for 3 seconds against the palate upwards and forwards with your thumbs. I think if you do this for 15 minutes or even shorter you will start hearing cracking in your face.

 

[Babushkacatlady]

Whether the growth is through sutures or direct bone growth, it's undeniable that the adult face grows with age as you said, it's also undeniable that cyclical forces, proper nutrition and maybe even certain anabolics/growth hormone-analogues would optimize that growth.

As you can see in the graph above even at 30 years old the peak of mandible growth hasn't been reached.

27.5mm at 35 years old, 25mm at 20 years old, 22mm at 10 years old.
Basically growth in jaw size from 10-20 is about the same as 20-35.

And this is only mandible length in average adults who don't stimulate bone growth that much(don't forcefully swallow every few seconds, don't eat hard food, barely do volume of chewing).

This study shows growth hormone grows mandible in GH-deficient adults and that the age of initiation doesn't matter:

Growth hormone, gender and face shape in Prader-Willi syndrome - PubMed

Prader-Willi syndrome is a neurodevelopmental disorder resulting from the absence of expression of paternally expressed gene(s) in a highly imprinted region of chromosome 15q11-13. The physical phenotype includes evidence of growth retardation due to relative growth hormone deficiency, small...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Another interesting fact is that people with gigantism have facial growth through-out their lifespan.

But it's not the aesthetic type of growth:

Pure mandibular growth alone will not lead to the aesthetic outcome most people want as this pic and others of gigantism/acromegaly show. Even people who use high amounts of GH long term, show this. In my view most positive changes will come from the bones changing shape and position with time rather than just growth. Chewing won't lead to the growth shown on the graph above, it will specifically deposit bone on the mandible where the stresses occur and the muscle insertion points.

Also check out this interesting study:

The Relationship between Bone Remodeling and the Clockwise Rotation of the Facial Skeleton: A Computed Tomographic Imaging-Based Evaluation - PubMed

Age-related changes of the midfacial skeleton occurred independently of gender, but at various time points in different locations. The observed changes seem to be driven by a bone resorption center located in the posterior maxilla, rather than by a rotational movement of the facial skeleton.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"Age-related changes of the mid-facial skeleton occurred independently of gender, but at various time points in different locations. The observed changes seem to be driven by a bone resorption center located in the posterior maxilla, rather than by a rotational movement of the facial skeleton."

If resorption can happen at posterior maxilla, I am sure deposition can happen as well.

When the posterior maxilla resorbs with no direct change to the anterior, it will cause something similar to clockwise rotation, due to the fulcrum of change being somewhere in the middle of the maxilla and the anterior must compensate with a clockwise-like rotation. My take on this is:

Anterior resorbed/moved up, posterior therefore deposited/moved down= CCW, can lead to open bite

Posterior resorbed/moved up, anterior therefore deposited/moved down= CW, can lead to deep bite

Anterior resorbed/moved up+posterior maintained or even slightly resorbed/moved up= Optimal and will lead to midface shortening, higher cheekbones, less round and well supported eyes. This is from that post on TGW, which would require a lot of upward mid facial compression from light forces:

Sorry for the spam, this study directly shows that in adults there is possible growth in midpalatal and pterygopalatine sutures:

"Conclusions: Midpalatal suture was successfully split by MSE in late adolescents, and the opening was almost perfectly parallel in a sagittal direction. Regarding the extent of transverse asymmetry of the split, on average one half of ANS moved more than the contralateral one by 1.1 mm. Pterygopalatine suture was split in its lower region by MSE, as the pyramidal process was pulled out from the pterygoid process. Patient gender and age had a negligible influence on suture opening for the age group considered in the study."

14-26 years old were the participants age.

This is also a very good blog to read:

When does midpalatal suture close ?

Summerized by : Dr.Hani Alhebshi. When does midpalatal suture close ? Upon searching the web , I found some useful articles answering this question. It has been stated that there is quite wide vari…

sorthoclub.wordpress.com

For sure MSE for example proves that this can be done in adults. Even slower expanders have shown this. These sutures aren't really meant to close under normal conditions of cyclic load like heavy chewing but these days they close early cause nobody chews their food. Another thing is that the maxilla will move a mm or two forward from expansion alone because it jams the maxilla against the zygomatic buttress and the reciprocal force will wedge it forward a bit.

 

[antiantifa]

@betamanlet

Idk if you'll be able to hear it, but after every-time I say crack I crack my palate, my phone isn't very sensitive to sound, but you can actually hear the minuscule cracks, there's like 2-5 of them at once, especially the last one is very audible:

NOTE I DO NOT CONDONE OPENING UR SUTURES WITHOUT UR DOCTOR IF U KILL URSELF ON ACIDDENT THATS ON U NOT MY FAULT THIS WARNING IS FOR ALL READING THIS THREAD.

 

[antiantifa]

Pure mandibular growth alone will not lead to the aesthetic outcome most people want as this pic and others of gigantism/acromegaly show. Even people who use high amounts of GH long term, show this. In my view most positive changes will come from the bones changing shape and position with time rather than just growth. Chewing won't lead to the growth shown on the graph above, it will specifically deposit bone on the mandible where the stresses occur and the muscle insertion points.


When the posterior maxilla resorbs with no direct change to the anterior, it will cause something similar to clockwise rotation, due to the fulcrum of change being somewhere in the middle of the maxilla and the anterior must compensate with a clockwise-like rotation. My take on this is:

Anterior resorbed/moved up, posterior therefore deposited/moved down= CCW, can lead to open bite

Posterior resorbed/moved up, anterior therefore deposited/moved down= CW, can lead to deep bite

Anterior resorbed/moved up+posterior maintained or even slightly resorbed/moved up= Optimal and will lead to midface shortening, higher cheekbones, less round and well supported eyes. This is from that post on TGW, which would require a lot of upward mid facial compression from light forces:
View attachment 982657



For sure MSE for example proves that this can be done in adults. Even slower expanders have shown this. These sutures aren't really meant to close under normal conditions of cyclic load like heavy chewing but these days they close early cause nobody chews their food. Another thing is that the maxilla will move a mm or two forward from expansion alone because it jams the maxilla against the zygomatic buttress and the reciprocal force will wedge it forward a bit.

I agree that pure mandibular growth will not work, but what I am thinking about is that posterior addition of bone = CCW rotation of the whole face.

Look at the media file I sent to betamanlet, my sutures are cracking and moving, after doing that exercise I now feel pain between my sphenoid and maxilla, specifically it feels the most around palatine/maxilla/sphenoid. I am sure it is inflamed now and will grow, if I don't keep moving it daily and hard swallowing it will for sure fuse because of inflammation.

The info I sent shows that even in adults up to 35 years old the suture can stay open, but even in young people as young as 14 it can be closed.

 

[Babushkacatlady]

@betamanlet

Idk if you'll be able to hear it, but after every-time I say crack I crack my palate, my phone isn't very sensitive to sound, but you can actually hear the minuscule cracks, there's like 2-5 of them at once, especially the last one is very audible:


View attachment 982663

NOTE I DO NOT CONDONE OPENING UR SUTURES WITHOUT UR DOCTOR IF U KILL URSELF ON ACIDDENT THATS ON U NOT MY FAULT THIS WARNING IS FOR ALL READING THIS THREAD.

lol don't fucking die. I think I did hear something slight though.

 

[antiantifa]

lol don't fucking die. I think I did hear something slight though.

Lol just max volume it, the cracks you're hearing aren't me moving I am perfectly still, those are my bones being pulled and pushed multiple times.

 

[antiantifa]

lol don't fucking die. I think I did hear something slight though.

Either way I'll make an update here in like a month or at least I notice actual difference in my face. We'll see if this theory is legit or not. I think I've already grown my face out a lot:

About same weight/height. I know it's not the same angle, but there's undeniable difference between chin prominence. I've also always known since beginning my mandible begun inside my neck muscle, now I can stack about 1-2 fingers between gonion and neck muscle.

 

[antiantifa]

NVM

 

[PURE ARYAN GENETICS]

I've been saying this for a while but people here parrot the tmj bs all the time. if you assume correct posture (giga chintuck and chest out for birdcels), your mandible hangs slightly forward naturally (basically a jut). once again it's just good posture and good muscle tone (eg tongue). and posture is just good muscle tone plus good habits (not sleeping on a bunch of pillows, not sitting in front of monitor that's too far away/too low all day, not wearing heavy backpacks full of useless shit as kids, having shoes that don't fuck up your feet/torque chain in your body etc). it's the reason I made a custom standing pc setup that I use barefoot

Now that I think of it, there was something in that article series from Portland's TMJ clinic that relates to the study:

View attachment 978710

The Portland TMJ Clinic - Chapter 4

Portland Oregon temporomandibular joint Specialist, Dr. Summer specializes in treatment of temporomandibular disorder and Pain Management of the jaw joint

portlandtmjclinic.com

brutal blackpill. it really was my personality all along

anyway great article

 

[PURE ARYAN GENETICS]

@betamanlet

Idk if you'll be able to hear it, but after every-time I say crack I crack my palate, my phone isn't very sensitive to sound, but you can actually hear the minuscule cracks, there's like 2-5 of them at once, especially the last one is very audible:


View attachment 982663

NOTE I DO NOT CONDONE OPENING UR SUTURES WITHOUT UR DOCTOR IF U KILL URSELF ON ACIDDENT THATS ON U NOT MY FAULT THIS WARNING IS FOR ALL READING THIS THREAD.

are you thumb pulling or what

 

[betamanlet]

@betamanlet

Idk if you'll be able to hear it, but after every-time I say crack I crack my palate, my phone isn't very sensitive to sound, but you can actually hear the minuscule cracks, there's like 2-5 of them at once, especially the last one is very audible:


View attachment 982663

NOTE I DO NOT CONDONE OPENING UR SUTURES WITHOUT UR DOCTOR IF U KILL URSELF ON ACIDDENT THATS ON U NOT MY FAULT THIS WARNING IS FOR ALL READING THIS THREAD.

Damn that sounds spooky.

Either way I'll make an update here in like a month or at least I notice actual difference in my face. We'll see if this theory is legit or not. I think I've already grown my face out a lot:

About same weight/height. I know it's not the same angle, but there's undeniable difference between chin prominence. I've also always known since beginning my mandible begun inside my neck muscle, now I can stack about 1-2 fingers between gonion and neck muscle.

It'll be interesting to see if you'll keep changing all the way towards something like this:

That may be a bit too westernized silhouette though. What's your ethnicity?

brutal blackpill. it really was my personality all along

Lol!

 

[Babushkacatlady]

If you don't mind I took the before and after pics of this morph and drew some very quick maxillary and mandibular anatomical structures sketches and superimposed them:

 

[antiantifa]

Damn that sounds spooky.


It'll be interesting to see if you'll keep changing all the way towards something like this:

View attachment 982889
That may be a bit too westernized silhouette though. What's your ethnicity?


Lol!

View attachment 982878

Not going to lie, to me I look really ugly in that morph, so I hope I don't change to that, but then again based on my avi you can already see I am a big fan of high gonial angles, not short ones.

My ethnicity is Monogolo-Russian.

 

[antiantifa]

If you don't mind I took the before and after pics of this morph and drew some very quick maxillary and mandibular anatomical structures sketches and superimposed them:
View attachment 982951View attachment 982952View attachment 982954

IMO ramus is simply too short in the morph, which makes me look weird.

Strangely enough my ramus actually goes through my ear if that makes sense and my palatal occlusion has shorter angle(more horizontal).

I think the perfect morph would actually if lost my nasal hump and gained ramus length with some teeth rotation, without any more forward movement of my chin.

 

[betamanlet]

Not going to lie, to me I look really ugly in that morph, so I hope I don't change to that, but then again based on my avi you can already see I am a big fan of high gonial angles, not short ones.

My ethnicity is Monogolo-Russian.

IMO ramus is simply too short in the morph, which makes me look weird.

I agree now that you pointed it out. I seem to have a fringe sense of aesthetics anyway, people rarely agree with my edits. I've also noticed that you quickly become face-blind while working on an edit. Often you'll make a change that looks good in the moment, only to return to it the following day and wonder what the hell you were thinking.

 

[Babushkacatlady]

@betamanlet
@antiantifa

I can't remember where I found it but here is an interesting gif that shows changes in the maxilla. This is superimposed in the S-N plane so it doesn't show changes in the sphenoid:

 

[antiantifa]

@betamanlet
@antiantifa

I can't remember where I found it but here is an interesting gif that shows changes in the maxilla. This is superimposed in the S-N plane so it doesn't show changes in the sphenoid:

Yeah I need these changes to rotate my ears.

 

[Babushkacatlady]

Yeah I need these changes to rotate my ears.

Ears too elfish? I recommend neck training. The sternocleidomastoid attaches right behind the ear (mastoid process) and this will push the bottom part of the ears out.

 

[betamanlet]

@betamanlet
@antiantifa

I can't remember where I found it but here is an interesting gif that shows changes in the maxilla. This is superimposed in the S-N plane so it doesn't show changes in the sphenoid:

That's one of my favorite gifs. I have no idea where it came from though or what the context around it is. Is this craniostructurally valid movement, with the dynamics between all bones taken in account? Or is it just a loose morph? Interesting in any case. Would be amazing to end up with such movement.

 

[Babushkacatlady]

That's one of my favorite gifs. I have no idea where it came from though or what the context around it is. Is this craniostructurally valid movement, with the dynamics between all bones taken in account? Or is it just a loose morph? Interesting in any case. Would be amazing to end up with such movement.

I don't where it came from exactly know either, just had it saved. Tried reverse image searching it but it turned up nothing. I think this study may shed some light on it though https://www.researchgate.net/public...predicts_variation_in_internal_skeletal_shape

Found this post on lookism too (https://lookism.net/threads/on-the-cranial-base.381027/), interesting read, with this gif and this pic:

It looks pretty valid to me based on the changes. The occipital bone is moving up, and if superimposed on F-N instead of S-N the sphenoid is also moving up. The nasal bone and nasal floor change, the maxillary sinus reshaping/"cheek line", and the forwards and up movement of the whole palate and upper incisors, and the cranial base angle becoming acute is consistent to what I've seen and believe to be correct so I think its legit.

 

[betamanlet]

I don't where it came from exactly know either, just had it saved. Tried reverse image searching it but it turned up nothing. I think this study may shed some light on it though https://www.researchgate.net/public...predicts_variation_in_internal_skeletal_shape

Found this post on lookism too (https://lookism.net/threads/on-the-cranial-base.381027/), interesting read, with this gif and this pic:
View attachment 987268

It looks pretty valid to me based on the changes. The occipital bone is moving up, and if superimposed on F-N instead of S-N the sphenoid is also moving up. The nasal bone and nasal floor change, the maxillary sinus reshaping/"cheek line", and the forwards and up movement of the whole palate and upper incisors, and the cranial base angle becoming acute is consistent to what I've seen and believe to be correct so I think its legit.

Interesting. I think you were right about the dual bite by the way. I've been forming my chewing pattern around the jutting motion now too, crushing the food in between the side surfaces of the incisors and canines (rather than in between the top surface of the molars). Haven't had any TMJ popping so far. This has turned out to demand a lot from the lateral pterygoids, it's clear that they had been under-utilized all this time.

 

[Babushkacatlady]

Interesting. I think you were right about the dual bite by the way. I've been forming my chewing pattern around the jutting motion now too, crushing the food in between the side surfaces of the incisors and canines (rather than in between the top surface of the molars). Haven't had any TMJ popping so far. This has turned out to demand a lot from the lateral pterygoids, it's clear that they had been under-utilized all this time.

Good to hear. The orthotropic device called the Biobloc stage 3 has people hold a jutting position for 18-20 hours per day initially, then people just wearing it over night. It is said that the TMJ itself takes at least 6 months to remodel to the new position and the muscles to change their position and shape up to a year to year and a half after that to keep that position stable.

 

[antiantifa]

Ears too elfish? I recommend neck training. The sternocleidomastoid attaches right behind the ear (mastoid process) and this will push the bottom part of the ears out.

Already do neck training often.

 

[antiantifa]

@Babushkacatlady
@betamanlet

These muscles above are all much more relevant for cranial base than masticatory muscles.

In palatal clefts, the muscles of the soft palate are hypoplastic

In this case the soft palate muscles are the levator/tensor palatini,and the muscle surrounding them.

Radiographs of a platybasic individual (A) demonstrating an obtuse cranial-base angle (1448) and radiographs of a nonplatybasic patient (B) demonstrating a more acute cranial-base angle (1168). Ba-S-N reference points indicate the cranial-base angle; S-N, anterior cranial base; Ba-S, posterior cranial base. Ba basion; S sella; N nasion. Less

The prevalence of platybasia was significantly higher in the VPI group (28.7%) than in the normal controls (2.4%)

VPI = Velopharyngeal Incompetence = weak levator and tensor palatini muscles.



If you swallow a certain way, where you tense the lateral pterygoid, the inferior anterior tongue muscles, the palatoglossus and the levator palatini, you can feel the temporal bone being pulled downwards at the inferior anterior region.

Currently my temporal bone is very CCW rotated. I wonder if CCW rotated temporal bone equals CW rotated maxilla?

 

[joseph]

Man you have to explain what you do at night with your teeth. You have some form of bruxism that gave you too much CCW rotation and gave you a giga-chad jaw at the expense of no visible teeth in your smile.

You have a ridiculously short distance between your incisor and your nose as well.

can you fix short distance between incisor and nose?

 

[antiantifa]

can you fix short distance between incisor and nose?

dont think u can do so naturally, typically this is caused by clenching which causes the bone to actually recede.

 

[Babushkacatlady]

@Babushkacatlady
@betamanlet

View attachment 989837

These muscles above are all much more relevant for cranial base than masticatory muscles.


In this case the soft palate muscles are the levator/tensor palatini,and the muscle surrounding them.

VPI = Velopharyngeal Incompetence = weak levator and tensor palatini muscles.



If you swallow a certain way, where you tense the lateral pterygoid, the inferior anterior tongue muscles, the palatoglossus and the levator palatini, you can feel the temporal bone being pulled downwards at the inferior anterior region.

Currently my temporal bone is very CCW rotated. I wonder if CCW rotated temporal bone equals CW rotated maxilla?

Interesting so you think these muscles are controlling the rotation of the temporal bone and cranial base orientation? It is hypothetically possible tbh. I think temporalis also has some influence on both mandibular position stability and cranial base.

We should also note that the sphenoid (Point S) moves/rotates up when the maxilla moves to an ideal position and moves/rotates down when maxilla is unideal (given this is a vertical growth situation).

We also know how the cranial base angle (Ba-S-N) becomes more acute with ideal growth. What proportion do you think this is just the sphenoid moving up versus the Basion (Ba) closing and moving forwards via the spheno occipital synchondrosis flexing forward?

@betamanlet
@antiantifa
Another thing of interesting note other than the muscles is the nerves running through the cranial bones. The non alveolar portion of the mandible is merely a little outgrowth of bone that grows around the inferior alveolar nerve:

We know that people who are struck with major neuromotor diseases and injuries can cause atrophy within the bone because the nerve has been cut off/lost conductivity. Nerves also run throughout the bones of the skull and cranial base often having the very same foundational shape.Is the bone loss from simply a lack of functional stimulation from the muscles or the nerves themselves?

Now this might sound very very out there and insane, perhaps bordering on mystical/spiritual: Is this a case of mind over matter? Can the mere mental focus and will on the sensory nerves strengthen, change shape, and position of cranial bones via nerve conduction and out-splitting and stimulation? If I focus on sensation near my sphenoid, perhaps one on the top of my sphenoid, given that nerves can functionally stimulate bone, can this cause some kind of shift within it?

 

[Deleted member 10172]

@Copemaxxing keep messaging me with his profile, he has most CCW rotated profile I've ever seen. He also has some form of bruxism(probably jutting).

Is jutting now legit for CCW rotation or not?

@betamanlet

Wake the fuck up, faggot and answer this question, you kept posting years ago about jutting and shit, what is ur personal results with this shit?

Jutting is cope

 

[Babushkacatlady]

I will also leave this quote here from Essentials of Facial Growth by Enlow and Hans, it is something to think about:

"In your lifetime, you have seen the faces of thousands of people, and each face is recognizable to you as distinctively individual. No two are quite alike, even those of identical twins. Every person's face is a custom-made original; there has never been another face exactly the same before,and there never will be again. Yet consider how relatively few parts comprise a face: a lower jaw and chin, cheekbones, a mouth and upper jaw, a nose, and two orbits. Add a forehead and supraorbital ridges for the neurocranial parts relating to the face. How is it possible that so few components can underlie such great variation in facial form?
The answer is that we have the ability to perceive exceedingly subtle differences in the relative shape, spread, and proportions of both hard and soft tissue parts and minute variations in the topographic contours among all of them. Very slight alterations in the configuration of the nose, for example, make a substantial difference in the appearance and the character of one's face as a whole. (Fig. 8-1, shows a sketch from photographs of the same person before and after rhinoplasty; they look like two quite different individuals, although only a minor nasal contour has been altered.) Furthermore, there is the particular "set" to a person's mouth, the personal sparkle in the eyes, and the tone in the muscles of facial expression that are quite individualized. Often we ask, ''Who does that person remind you of?" because there is some unique combination of nasal contour, lip configuration, jaw shape, and so on, that resembles some other face known to us."

 

[hairyballscel]

Anterior resorbed/moved up+posterior maintained or even slightly resorbed/moved up= Optimal and will lead to midface shortening, higher cheekbones, less round and well supported eyes. This is from that post on TGW, which would require a lot of upward mid facial compression from light forces:

how do u achieve this?

 

[Babushkacatlady]

how do u achieve this?

Mewing over several years. No surgery will fix the long midface but can only offer camouflage options like a rhinoplasty and cheek augmentation, but it will still look odd.

 

[antiantifa]

Mewing over several years. No surgery will fix the long midface but can only offer camouflage options like a rhinoplasty and cheek augmentation, but it will still look odd.

IMO doesn't look like a good change, lack of vertical growth.

 

[Deleted member 4410]

Don't you guys look like with a severe underbite when jutting? I can't even protrude lower jaw even a bit, cuz it looks legit retarded. Maybe it's cause of my recession/edge-to-edge bite.

 

[antiantifa]

Don't you guys look like with a severe underbite when jutting? I can't even protrude lower jaw even a bit, cuz it looks legit retarded. Maybe it's cause of my recession/edge-to-edge bite.

lol ur name checks out, ur supposed to jut while keeping teeth contact, but idk if it's legit/healthy

 

[Deleted member 4410]

lol ur name checks out, ur supposed to jut while keeping teeth contact, but idk if it's legit/healthy

not sure what that means. Even if I move lower teeth like 2mms forward I look like I have underbite.