
batteryfresh
god is king
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how do you know there is no godHey @holy I'm down for a debate
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how do you know there is no godHey @holy I'm down for a debate
id like it if I was programmed to be good nigga just saying"Problem of Evil" argument already? Alright.
But there's a major logical flaw here.
You're assuming that a righteous God must eliminate all evil immediately. But, take a second to consider this: if you're a parent and your child is learning to walk, do you stop them from ever falling? No. Why? Because falling and getting back up is part of learning and growing stronger.
Evil exists partially because free will exists. If God eliminated all possibility of evil, we'd basically be robots: pre-programmed to only do good with no ACTUAL choice in the matter. Would that be true righteousness, or just forced compliance?
Plus, how do we define what's "righteous"? From our limited human perspective, suffering might seem purely evil. But sometimes what appears evil in the short term serves a greater purpose, like chemotherapy seeming cruel but ultimately saving lives.
Your argument assumes you know what a "righteous" God should do. That's like an ant trying to understand why humans build cities. Our perspective might be too limited to grasp the full picture.
Does this disprove God? Or does it just show that our human logic might be too simplistic to fully understand a divine being's reasoning?
1. You entirely missed the mark. Interconnected and complex systems don't preclude alternative proposals. Complexity =/= justification of suffering we , if a prey's suffering during predation lasts for extended periods, what benefit does this serve over a quicker death? I am saying "if God can make it so these are not the case". My examples were HYPOTHETICALS to show alternative examples - pain suppression (e.g., greater quantities of endorphins) during predation doesn't deny pain utility elsewhere, it is me asking how prolonged suffering during given death is necessary. Learning through pain is adapative but (A) doesn't apply in given death and (B) could be exchanged with stress signals or instinctual avoidance mechanisms. In relation to gratuitous suffering, I am not claiming how to create a perfect universe, I am enquring towards whether or not the suffering we observe and can experience ourselves can be dispensed without logical breakdown. If you are to assert that all suffering is necessery, you are assuming the burden of proof, keep this in mind.A whole manifesto of someone who just discovered philosophical terms trying to sound profound while completely missing the fundamental nature of their own arguments.
1. Your "improved universe" suggestions are so profoundly naive that it genuinely hurts.
You're basically saying:
"just make predators kill humanely, make reproduction match resources perfectly, and have built-in adaptability instead of natural selection"
As if you could just rewrite the fundamental laws of physics, chemistry, and biology without understanding how deeply interconnected these systems are.
It's like watching someone suggest we could solve traffic by making everyone fly, completely oblivious to the cascading consequences of such changes in complex systems.
Your understanding of biological systems is SO surface-level it's painful: you talk about emphasizing symbiosis as if it's not already a fundamental aspect of ecosystems, suggest pain suppression during predation while ignoring the IMPORTANT role of pain in learning and survival, and propose "natural sterility under resource scarcity" without considering HOW that would actually play out in real ecological systems.
2. Your determinism stance is where things get really fucking messy because:
- You're trying to simultaneously argue that everything is determined by prior causes
- AND that God is somehow morally culpable for the universe's design
This is LITERALLY philosophically incoherent on a basic level; if determinism is true, then this universe literally couldn't be any other way, and concepts like "fault" or "should have done differently" become meaningless.
You can't have your deterministic cake and eat your moral responsibility too.
Either:
- We're all just molecules bouncing around inevitably according to physical laws
OR
- There's actual moral agency at play.
3. "partial free will"
What the fuck? This is basically determinism wearing a fake mustache.
You're saying:
- We're influenced by our environment but can still make choices
This is literally just describing determinism with extra steps while trying to preserve moral responsibility through philosophical sleight of hand. Your attempt at a syllogism just smuggles in the assumption of free will in your premises, making the whole thing circular as fuck.
4. The absolute peak of arrogance comes when you declare that "God's justice needs to be meaningful within OUR lived experiences"
Why does an infinite being need to conform to YOUR preferred timeline of justice delivery?
This is the philosophical equivalent of a toddler demanding their punishment happen **RIGHT NOW** because they can't conceptualize longer timeframes.
5. Why do you keep throwing around "gratuitous suffering"?
You haven't actually proven any suffering is truly gratuitous. In fact, all you've done is assert it based on your limited human perspective of complex systems.
"I can't immediately see the purpose of this suffering, therefore it must be purposeless," This is what your whole argument boils down to, which isn't philosophy but just arrogance.
For someone claiming not to make emotional arguments, you sure spent a fuckton of words trying to appeal to how things "should" be based entirely on YOUR feelings about suffering.
Either engage with the actual complexity of these issues, or admit you're just philosophically masturbating with fancy vocabulary.
It's completely FINE to critique the architecture of reality, but at least have the intellectual honesty to admit you're doing it from a position of profound ignorance about how complex systems actually work.
Your "better universe" suggestions read like a teenager explaining how they'd fix the global economy by just printing more money, technically forming complete sentences but just missing every single important aspect of how things actually function.
Subjective morality isn't a senseless point of view brother. I can claim things are wrong by grounding them in self evident human psychology (axiomatic desires) or, if you want a more objective standard, survival.At this point, your arguments keep getting fucking worse that it just pains me to type on my keyboard to even respond to this bullshit.
Have you ever even owned a pet? This is embarrassingly wrong.
Animals plan, deceive, show intentional behavior constantly.
So:
- A cat waiting to ambush isn't intentional?
- A crow using tools isn't intentional?
This is the kind of shitty argument you make when your entire understanding of animal behavior comes from philosophy 101 textbooks instead of actual science.
Jesus Christ, crack open a history book.
Moral philosophy existed WAY before Christianity. Ever heard of:
- Confucius?
- Buddha?
- Ancient Egyptian moral codes?
You're not only wrong but historically illiterate.
But, honestly, where we currently are, it really doesn't surprise me.
And, your math argument is pure nonsense.
Really? Can you tell that to:
- Physicists
- Engineers
Your phone works because of math describing reality, dumbass.
You're describing psychology, not morality. If morality is just whatever people feel like, then you can't claim ANYTHING is wrong.
- Hitler? Just different values!
- Stalin? Different community norms!
See how fucking stupid this gets?
This is literally word salad.
You're trying to have determinism and free will at the same time. It's like saying "This circle is square but also circular!"
You're not making even making philosophical arguments anymore (Not that you made any to begin with). You're basically making freshman dorm room "deep thoughts" after too many bong hits. You're contradicting yourself every other sentence while somehow managing to be condescending AND wrong at the same time.
I'll engage with you on these ideas if you JUST start by:
1. Learning basic biology
2. Reading some actual history
3. Understanding what words mean before using them
4. Picking ONE coherent position and sticking to it
He does and i know for sure.Hey @holy I'm down for a debate
Reverse Cosmological Argument (classical monotheism objection which applies here)how do you know there is no god
Let's hear it.He does and i know for sure.
Was at the low point of my life, seconds away from killing myself.Let's hear it.
I can give more theological arguments but this is the core to my belief.Was at the low point of my life, seconds away from killing myself.
Out of nowhere my phone starts making a noise, it was instagram.
It was a voice saying "dont do it my friend, life's tough. But you have so much to live for. I know you are weak, but you must remain strong."
Other things too but thats about what i can still remember, i had it saved but my account got hacked recently, i'll see if i can find it.
The video which i viewed after hearing that was about suicide. It was a christian account.
I have other instances but this was the most significant one for me.
It wasnt a coincidence at all. This was the Almighty God sending me a personal message.
I would have died had i not heard it. I was on the literal point of killing myself with a drug overdose.
I dont blame you for thinking this is just a coincidence, it is not.
Animals and humans are actually different. Intentionality is not just about "planning" stuff in the time, an intentional act consists of a will that is cappable of going agaisnt "what's meant to be done", let me explain: when animals act as a group they follow a set of social rules, these rules are learned through life by imitation of the parents. The consciousness humans have is cappable of being above social norms, humans are cappable of thinking by themselves instead of following others being the bee or the ant working in it's predetermined task. This is why humans don't have an essence because they are different.At this point, your arguments keep getting fucking worse that it just pains me to type on my keyboard to even respond to this bullshit.
Have you ever even owned a pet? This is embarrassingly wrong.
Animals plan, deceive, show intentional behavior constantly.
So:
- A cat waiting to ambush isn't intentional?
- A crow using tools isn't intentional?
This is the kind of shitty argument you make when your entire understanding of animal behavior comes from philosophy 101 textbooks instead of actual science.
Jesus Christ, crack open a history book.
Moral philosophy existed WAY before Christianity. Ever heard of:
- Confucius?
- Buddha?
- Ancient Egyptian moral codes?
You're not only wrong but historically illiterate.
But, honestly, where we currently are, it really doesn't surprise me.
And, your math argument is pure nonsense.
Really? Can you tell that to:
- Physicists
- Engineers
Your phone works because of math describing reality, dumbass.
You're describing psychology, not morality. If morality is just whatever people feel like, then you can't claim ANYTHING is wrong.
- Hitler? Just different values!
- Stalin? Different community norms!
See how fucking stupid this gets?
This is literally word salad.
You're trying to have determinism and free will at the same time. It's like saying "This circle is square but also circular!"
You're not making even making philosophical arguments anymore (Not that you made any to begin with). You're basically making freshman dorm room "deep thoughts" after too many bong hits. You're contradicting yourself every other sentence while somehow managing to be condescending AND wrong at the same time.
I'll engage with you on these ideas if you JUST start by:
1. Learning basic biology
2. Reading some actual history
3. Understanding what words mean before using them
4. Picking ONE coherent position and sticking to it
I just wanted to debatefor saying that, you're destined to be born in India again in your next life.
No that’s called Pascal’s wager and that’s not why Christian’s are good your imposing what you THINK we thing and WHY we are good.@PrinceLuenLeoncur @holy
im not trying to debunk Christianity or anything thats what retarded indians try to do
this is just a question
is being good because your scared of hell truly being good?
and is that not the Christian incentive to being good?
again just a question pls dont take this as an insult
i feel like a lot of people share this belief“yeah I follow god because I fear hell and so I’m good“
Well I didn’t mean to do a no true Scotsman fallacy and I am not in the position to say who is and isn’t a true Christine based on their spiritual weakness we all on our own journey. But a confident Christian would be good for it is pleasing to god. I don’t fear hell, if I go there I accept it with open arms god knows best and he’s never wrong I’ll go there and accept I deserve it.i feel like a lot of people share this belief
but no "true" Christians
but i understand thanks
ltn debate me its over for you i studied bible for more than 2 yearsHey @holy I'm down for a debate
Lay out your arguments.ltn debate me its over for you i studied bible for more than 2 years
i’m a christian bro i want to debate atheists xdLay out your arguments.
Yes, just write your arguments for why you believe Christianity and tag the athiests, or wait for them to respond. You don't have to ask to debate people on .org.i’m a christian bro i want to debate atheists xd
i want atheists to give arguments and i will just replyYes, just write your arguments for why you believe Christianity and tag the athiests, or wait for them to respond. You don't have to ask to debate people on .org.
i want atheists to give arguments and i will just reply
Could most definitely be selection bias but, honestly, if it helps you stay happy, by all means bro.Was at the low point of my life, seconds away from killing myself.
Out of nowhere my phone starts making a noise, it was instagram.
It was a voice saying "dont do it my friend, life's tough. But you have so much to live for. I know you are weak, but you must remain strong."
Other things too but thats about what i can still remember, i had it saved but my account got hacked recently, i'll see if i can find it.
The video which i viewed after only hearing it showed me it was indeed about suicide. It was a christian account.
I have other instances but this was the most significant one for me.
It wasnt a coincidence at all. This was the Almighty God sending me a personal message.
I would have died had i not heard it. I was on the literal point of killing myself with a drug overdose.
I dont blame you for thinking this is just a coincidence, it is not.
Yeah my other messages in chatltn debate me its over for you i studied bible for more than 2 years
1. You entirely missed the mark. Interconnected and complex systems don't preclude alternative proposals. Complexity =/= justification of suffering we , if a prey's suffering during predation lasts for extended periods, what benefit does this serve over a quicker death? I am saying "if God can make it so these are not the case". My examples were HYPOTHETICALS to show alternative examples - pain suppression (e.g., greater quantities of endorphins) during predation doesn't deny pain utility elsewhere, it is me asking how prolonged suffering during given death is necessary. Learning through pain is adapative but (A) doesn't apply in given death and (B) could be exchanged with stress signals or instinctual avoidance mechanisms. In relation to gratuitous suffering, I am not claiming how to create a perfect universe, I am enquring towards whether or not the suffering we observe and can experience ourselves can be dispensed without logical breakdown. If you are to assert that all suffering is necessery, you are assuming the burden of proof, keep this in mind.
To conclude, philosophical enquiry doesn't require me to have all-encompassing knowledge on ecosystems. My lack of total knowledge doesn't invalidate the question of "could a different system, designed by God's boundless will, achieve similar outcomes with less suffering?".
2. God is the baseline cause of the universe and, under classical theism, this was a CHOICE. Therefore, as an omnipotent being, all consequences of such decisions become fundamentally ON God.
3. If you read what I said you would know my free will objections were besides determinism as I knew you wouldn't be a determinist. If determinism isn't true and we assume there is free will, which was the foundation of everything other than my syllogism to prove determinism (e.g., here is an objection, and then another objection except this time I am proving determinism) then it is never total free will due to influences out of our control, yet still permits moral agency.
4. You asked me what standard my statement of delayed justice being inadequate what based on. I am telling you they are my standards, or more realistically human time standards, as we are the ones objecting.. because we are the ones suffering? If God is described as providing justice, yet that is only reasonably comprehended and thus a valuable attribute under a human lens, any meaning requires it to be within lived experiences, or else it doesn't repair harm. Delayed justice = indifference to the current endured suffering.
5. Gratuitous suffering is pointless in the sense of no proportionate purpose (refer to my examples of extreme predation or natural disasters). All I have to do is conceive a world that does not have the suffering, shifting the topic to the necessity of the suffering. Let's just take the example of a deer being slowly maimed.
A) Pain acts as a survival mechanism. As I have said before, this has no educative power if they are going to die.
B) Predators often incapacitate prey, yet this can involve suffering. If the end goal is consumption (energy transfer up a trophic level), and not suffering, then it is a byproduct. If it is a byproduct that is purely experiential, which we have already outlined serves no purpose in A), then it is not logically indespensible, and I can imagine a consumption framework in which it does not exist (quick, painless kills).
C) If pain suppression is biologically possible (endorphins, cortisol), why is it not universal or more potent (evolution optimises not perfects traits)?
I apologise for making words complicated I am practicing my vocabulary.
Here is a SYLLOGISM:
P1: An omnipotent and omnibenevolent God would create a world where all suffering serves a necessary purpose for achieving a greater good.
P2: Gratuitous suffering serves no necessary purpose for an observable greater good or necessary ecological function.
P3: Gratuitous suffering exists.
Concluusion: An omnipotent and omnibenevolent God does not exist.
Things to consider for the syllogism:
- Burden of proof for hidden purpose.
- Occam's Razor for if you are proposing extra unsubstantiated assumptions to absolve God.
- If suffering exists for an unknown purpose we should find consistent patterns to show its ecological utility.
- We know from ecological research that being eaten alive and experiencing mass starvation doesn't contribute to a predator's success, the evolution of the prey, or an ecosystem's stability in an exclusive manner.
- We already know less harmful methods exist.
As a closing statement to cover your enquiry regarding natural sterility even though it doesn't really have any bearing on my critique, I have done some quick research.
- Species experience reproductive hormone changes based on nutritional health (e.g., LH and FSH reduction during malnutrition).
- Sexual maturity may be delayed when nutritional sources are in scarcity.
- Many species only breed during times of resource abundancy to ensure it isn't immediately used up.
- In social species (wolves, primates), the dominant individuals suppress reproduction through behavioural or hormonal cues.
- Desert rodents reduce litter sizes during droughts.
- Insects might entet reproductive dormancy during resource scarcity.
- Aphids can switch between sexual and asexual reproduction according to environmental changes.
Hope this helped![]()
"1. You entirely missed the mark. Interconnected and complex systems don't preclude alternative proposals. Complexity =/= justification of suffering we , if a prey's suffering during predation lasts for extended periods, what benefit does this serve over a quicker death? I am saying "if God can make it so these are not the case". My examples were HYPOTHETICALS to show alternative examples - pain suppression (e.g., greater quantities of endorphins) during predation doesn't deny pain utility elsewhere, it is me asking how prolonged suffering during given death is necessary. Learning through pain is adapative but (A) doesn't apply in given death and (B) could be exchanged with stress signals or instinctual avoidance mechanisms. In relation to gratuitous suffering, I am not claiming how to create a perfect universe, I am enquring towards whether or not the suffering we observe and can experience ourselves can be dispensed without logical breakdown. If you are to assert that all suffering is necessery, you are assuming the burden of proof, keep this in mind.
*To conclude, philosophical enquiry doesn't require me to have all-encompassing knowledge on ecosystems. My lack of total knowledge doesn't invalidate the question of "could a different system, designed by God's boundless will, achieve similar outcomes with less suffering?"
"2. God is the baseline cause of the universe and, under classical theism, this was a CHOICE. Therefore, as an omnipotent being, all consequences of such decisions become fundamentally ON God."
"3. If you read what I said you would know my free will objections were besides determinism as I knew you wouldn't be a determinist. If determinism isn't true and we assume there is free will, which was the foundation of everything other than my syllogism to prove determinism (e.g., here is an objection, and then another objection except this time I am proving determinism) then it is never total free will due to influences out of our control, yet still permits moral agency."
"4. You asked me what standard my statement of delayed justice being inadequate what based on. I am telling you they are my standards, or more realistically human time standards, as we are the ones objecting.. because we are the ones suffering? If God is described as providing justice, yet that is only reasonably comprehended and thus a valuable attribute under a human lens, any meaning requires it to be within lived experiences, or else it doesn't repair harm. Delayed justice = indifference to the current endured suffering."
"5. Gratuitous suffering is pointless in the sense of no proportionate purpose (refer to my examples of extreme predation or natural disasters). All I have to do is conceive a world that does not have the suffering, shifting the topic to the necessity of the suffering. Let's just take the example of a deer being slowly maimed.
A) Pain acts as a survival mechanism. As I have said before, this has no educative power if they are going to die.
B) Predators often incapacitate prey, yet this can involve suffering. If the end goal is consumption (energy transfer up a trophic level), and not suffering, then it is a byproduct. If it is a byproduct that is purely experiential, which we have already outlined serves no purpose in A), then it is not logically indespensible, and I can imagine a consumption framework in which it does not exist (quick, painless kills).
C) If pain suppression is biologically possible (endorphins, cortisol), why is it not universal or more potent (evolution optimises not perfects traits)?
I apologise for making words complicated I am practicing my vocabulary.
Here is a SYLLOGISM:
P1: An omnipotent and omnibenevolent God would create a world where all suffering serves a necessary purpose for achieving a greater good.
P2: Gratuitous suffering serves no necessary purpose for an observable greater good or necessary ecological function.
P3: Gratuitous suffering exists.
Concluusion: An omnipotent and omnibenevolent God does not exist.
Things to consider for the syllogism:
- Burden of proof for hidden purpose.
- Occam's Razor for if you are proposing extra unsubstantiated assumptions to absolve God.
- If suffering exists for an unknown purpose we should find consistent patterns to show its ecological utility.
- We know from ecological research that being eaten alive and experiencing mass starvation doesn't contribute to a predator's success, the evolution of the prey, or an ecosystem's stability in an exclusive manner.
- We already know less harmful methods exist.
As a closing statement to cover your enquiry regarding natural sterility even though it doesn't really have any bearing on my critique, I have done some quick research.
- Species experience reproductive hormone changes based on nutritional health (e.g., LH and FSH reduction during malnutrition).
- Sexual maturity may be delayed when nutritional sources are in scarcity.
- Many species only breed during times of resource abundancy to ensure it isn't immediately used up.
- In social species (wolves, primates), the dominant individuals suppress reproduction through behavioural or hormonal cues.
- Desert rodents reduce litter sizes during droughts.
- Insects might entet reproductive dormancy during resource scarcity.
- Aphids can switch between sexual and asexual reproduction according to environmental changes.
Hope this helped"
Animals and humans are actually different. Intentionality is not just about "planning" stuff in the time, an intentional act consists of a will that is cappable of going agaisnt "what's meant to be done", let me explain: when animals act as a group they follow a set of social rules, these rules are learned through life by imitation of the parents. The consciousness humans have is cappable of being above social norms, humans are cappable of thinking by themselves instead of following others being the bee or the ant working in it's predetermined task. This is why humans don't have an essence because they are different.
Same reason why morals is not about two poles being what's right or wrong, what's moral or inmoral depends on what society considers to be right or wrong but the actual contents are judgements made by humans and not a God, therefore they can be valid or invalid depending on things like: family, law, school, friends and so on... As a human you can agree or disagree on these things because you have freedom, but being free also comes with being able to know the consequences of our decisions. Is not like criminals had to choose to be criminals because they were poor, no they made a decision and sticked to it. The decision was going to go agaisnt the law to obtain whatever they wanted to obtain such as political power or money.
And I talked about christianism because Europe (following by the conquest of America by the english and spanish people) expanded christian values, philosophy and religion. Rome wasnt influenced by Buddha or Lao Tse they were agaisnt it. Rome was influenced by the Greeks and Macedonians. Our world view is mainly eurocentric (like beauty and media), and I used to be christian because I was conquered by European people. Nowadays Islam is expanding but Buddha or Confucius philosophy is dead thanks to communists and the pass of time.
Finally about math, I'm not sure what's your stance on numbers but numbers are not objects, numbers are a language that describes reality but it's not actually what we consider to be reality in the living world such as "beings or things". If you want to discuss about it, tell me what numbers are because numbers don't define anything.
@PrinceLuenLeoncur @ReasonableAdvice
"Buddha or Confucius philosophy is dead thanks to communists"
waterHey @holy I'm down for a debate
Your attempt to backpedal here is fucking hilarious.
"Complexity =/= justification of suffering"
No one said it did.
But you can't just handwave away complexity by saying "God could do it differently!"
That's not an argument, that's wishful thinking.
You're essentially saying "make everything work exactly the same but without the bad parts" which shows you don't understand how these systems function at a basic level.
Your endorphin example is perfect for showing how shallow your thinking is. You think you can just crank up endorphins during predation without affecting the entire system? What the fuck? You do realize that those same pathways are important for learning, memory, motivation, and survival behaviors, right? You can't just isolate one piece and tweak it without consequences.
That's not how biology works.
"Learning through pain could be exchanged with stress signals"
What THE FUCK DO YOU THINK PAIN IS?
Hey, dumbass: Pain IS a stress signal.
This is like saying "we don't need rain, we could just have water falling from the sky."
"I am not claiming how to create a perfect universe"
Bullshit. That's exactly what you're doing. You're sitting there saying "God could do better" while admitting you don't understand how these systems work. That's peak arrogance.
"My lack of total knowledge doesn't invalidate the question"
Actually, it kind of does.
You're making claims about what's possible or necessary in complex systems while admitting you don't understand them. That's like me criticizing a quantum physicist's work while admitting I don't understand quantum mechanics.
Here's the real problem:
You're trying to have it both ways. You want to claim suffering is "gratuitous" while simultaneously admitting you don't understand the systems involved. You can't make that claim without understanding what's necessary and what isn't. You're just assuming that because you can imagine a nicer universe, it must be possible. That's not philosophy - that's fantasy.
Under determinism (which YOU claim to believe in), there IS no "choice" - even for God.
You're trying to smuggle libertarian free will back in just for God while denying it to everything else. And if you're arguing from classical theism, God's nature IS goodness - there's no external standard to judge God against.
You're mixing incompatible philosophical frameworks like a drunk bartender mixing cocktails.
This is philosophical whiplash.
You're bouncing between determinism and free will like a ping pong ball, making arguments from both positions while understanding neither. It's actually insane at this point.
"It's never total free will due to influences"
No shit, dumbass, that's called determinism.
You can't have "partial" free will any more than you can be "partially" pregnant.
AGAIN, either:
- our choices are determined by prior causes
OR
- they're not.
Pick one and stick with it.
Holy fucking narcissism, Batman! You're basically saying:
"God must operate on MY timescale because I'M suffering."
The sheer arrogance of thinking an eternal being must conform to human temporal preferences is staggering.
Your argument is basically "if I can't see justice happening RIGHT NOW, it doesn't count."
You have a toddler's understanding of time and justice.
"Delayed justice = indifference"
That's just assertion without argument.
By that logic, every legal system on Earth shows "indifference" because they don't instantly punish crimes.
You're consistently making the same error (All throughout your points): assuming your human perspective is adequate to judge the operations of an infinite being. It's like an ant criticizing the architecture of the Pentagon.
More pseudo-intellectual masterbation.
Your entire argument about "gratuitous" suffering still fails because you STILL haven't proven it's actually gratuitous.
You're just asserting it.
Your deer example is peak anthropomorphization.
You're applying human concepts of "quick and painless" death -> Systems that evolved over millions of years.
Pain isn't just about "learning" but integral to nervous system function, stress responses, and behavioral patterns across entire populations. You can't just isolate one deer's death and say "this specific pain serves no purpose" -
Like, what the fuck? That's not how complex systems work.
And, your "biological possibilities" show a kindergarten-level understanding of evolution.
"Why isn't pain suppression universal or more potent?"
Because evolution isn't a conscious designer, you walnut.
It's a result of competing pressures. More endorphins might reduce suffering during predation but could also reduce survival fitness in countless other way. You're basically asking "if legs are possible, why don't all animals have super-legs?"
Now for your precious syllogism:
1. P1 assumes you know what constitutes "necessary purpose" and "greater good" from an infinite perspective. You don't. Like, at all.
2. P2 is circular - you're assuming what you're trying to prove.
3. P3 is just assertion without evidence.
Your "things to consider":
- "Burden of proof for hidden purpose" - YOU made the claim about gratuitous suffering. YOU have the burden of proof.
- Occam's Razor actually works against you - you're the one adding assumptions about what suffering is "necessary."
- "Consistent patterns" - There ARE patterns, you're just ignoring them because they don't fit your argument.
- Your claim about ecological research is just flat wrong. Predator-prey relationships absolutely affect evolution and ecosystem stability.
Finally, your "research" about natural sterility just casually proves my point.
These mechanisms ALREADY EXIST, and guess what? They still involve suffering!
You're basically saying "look, nature already does the thing I said it should do" -
while completely missing that these processes STILL involve the suffering you're complaining about.
You're trying so hard to sound academic that you're missing the fundamental flaws in your own arguments.
Strip away the fancy vocabulary in your shitty arguments and what's left is basically
"suffering exists and I don't like it, therefore God bad."
That's not philosophy.
You're complaining, bud.
Hope that helped![]()
Not to jump in here on @holy 's behalf, but seeing as you pinged me I will take a read.Animals and humans are actually different. Intentionality is not just about "planning" stuff in the time, an intentional act consists of a will that is cappable of going agaisnt "what's meant to be done", let me explain: when animals act as a group they follow a set of social rules, these rules are learned through life by imitation of the parents. The consciousness humans have is cappable of being above social norms, humans are cappable of thinking by themselves instead of following others being the bee or the ant working in it's predetermined task. This is why humans don't have an essence because they are different.
Same reason why morals is not about two poles being what's right or wrong, what's moral or inmoral depends on what society considers to be right or wrong but the actual contents are judgements made by humans and not a God, therefore they can be valid or invalid depending on things like: family, law, school, friends and so on... As a human you can agree or disagree on these things because you have freedom, but being free also comes with being able to know the consequences of our decisions. Is not like criminals had to choose to be criminals because they were poor, no they made a decision and sticked to it. The decision was going to go agaisnt the law to obtain whatever they wanted to obtain such as political power or money.
And I talked about christianism because Europe (following by the conquest of America by the english and spanish people) expanded christian values, philosophy and religion. Rome wasnt influenced by Buddha or Lao Tse they were agaisnt it. Rome was influenced by the Greeks and Macedonians. Our world view is mainly eurocentric (like beauty and media), and I used to be christian because I was conquered by European people. Nowadays Islam is expanding but Buddha or Confucius philosophy is dead thanks to communists and the pass of time.
Finally about math, I'm not sure what's your stance on numbers but numbers are not objects, numbers are a language that describes reality but it's not actually what we consider to be reality in the living world such as "beings or things". If you want to discuss about it, tell me what numbers are because numbers don't define anything.
@PrinceLuenLeoncur @ReasonableAdvice
Despite our disagreements previously and your misinterpretation of my free will versus determinism hopscotch, this was a nice rebuttal and I agree (considering it doesn't go against anything I just replied to him with).It just gets worse with you. Every. Single. Time.
I'll dissect this clusterfuck piece by piece, because holy shit, your understanding of... well, everything, is painfully wrong.
1. Your "animals vs humans" bullshit.
You're creating this magical divide where humans are somehow special snowflakes that can "think above social norms" while animals are just programmed robots.
Have you ever actually... you know... studied animal behavior? Because this take is so fucking outdated.
Let's talk about chimps. They literally engage in politics, form coalitions, deceive each other, and wage calculated wars. They don't just "follow predetermined tasks" - they make complex decisions that often go AGAINST their immediate instincts or group behaviors.
Dolphins use fucking NAME-CALLING systems and gossip networks.
Ravens solve multi-step puzzles and hold grudges against specific humans who fucked them over - even teaching other ravens to recognize these humans.
Elephants mourn their dead, help injured members of OTHER SPECIES, and show complex emotional processing.
But sure, tell me more about how animals just "follow social rules through imitation." Fucking idiot lmfao.
2. Your take on morality is even more painful.
You're basically arguing that morality is purely subjective because it varies by society, while simultaneously trying to make objective claims about human nature and freedom. You can't have it both ways, genius.
If everything is purely subjective and based on society, then your claims about human consciousness and freedom are ALSO just social constructs with no inherent truth value.
3. Holy shit, your history...
???
Are you fucking serious?
There are over 500 MILLION Buddhists alive today. Confucian thought is still MASSIVE in East Asia and heavily influences modern Chinese, Korean, and Japanese society.
You're literally speaking from such a narrow, eurocentric viewpoint that you're declaring massive philosophical traditions "dead" just because... what? They don't fit your narrative?
4. Then we get to your numbers argument, which somehow manages to be both obvious and wrong at the same time.
Yes, numbers are abstract concepts that describe reality. NO SHIT.
But you're using this to somehow argue against their validity while simultaneously making claims about human nature that are EQUALLY abstract.
The fact that something is abstract doesn't make it less real or valid - ask any physicist working with quantum mechanics.
5. Your whole spiel about freedom is just... chef's kiss perfect contradiction.
You want humans to have this magical ability to "go against what's meant to be done" while simultaneously being purely products of their society and circumstances.
Pick a fucking lane. Either we have genuine free will (which, by the way, requires some form of metaphysical grounding that your purely materialistic worldview can't provide), or we're just meat computers responding to inputs. You can't have both.
You're trying to sound so fucking deep while fundamentally misunderstanding:
- Basic biology and animal behavior
- The relationship between abstract concepts and reality
- The actual state of world philosophy
- The logical implications of your own arguments
And the worst part? You're so confident in your wrongness that you don't even realize how many times you've contradicted yourself. You're basically the philosophical equivalent of someone who watched a few YouTube videos and now thinks they understand quantum physics.
I'll gladly set up a real discussion for us about consciousness, free will, and morality. But first:
1. Actually study some modern animal cognition research
2. Learn about philosophy outside your eurocentric bubble
3. Figure out what you actually believe, because right now you're trying to hold multiple contradictory positions simultaneously
Until then, you're just throwing around big words and half-understood concepts while managing to be both condescending AND wrong. It's actually impressive, in a way.
No evidence of his existence = doesn't exist. Nobody proved for 2000 years that he exists and therefore he doesn't exist that's allI'm down. What's on your mind? Why do you think God doesn't exist (aside from the Bible)?
No evidence of his existence = doesn't exist. Nobody proved for 2000 years that he exists and therefore he doesn't exist that's all
This reasoning is good. no one has yet demonstrated God and his divine power or logically been able to prove his existence. He doesn't existI'm sorry, I know I left this debate a fucking month or two ago, but this reasoning is actually dogshit.
This reasoning is good. no one has yet demonstrated God and his divine power or logically been able to prove his existence. He doesn't exist
First of all, I'm not a mongoloid, I'm white. And you are probably a nigger or smth.Holy FUCK, the sheer stupidity of that argument makes me want to bash my head against a fucking tree, you absolute mongoloid:
No one discovered quantum mechanics.First, that's an argument from ignorance fallacy, you fucking troglodyte. 'No evidence = doesn't exist'? By that dipshit logic, before we discovered quantum mechanics, atoms, or radio waves, they didn't fucking exist either.
no you don't have any proof. It is clear from the start that God is not material (and therefore does not exist) and he is only in your head. But if you want, then show all your unphilosophical, cosmological, etc. proofs.Second, what counts as 'proof' to your smooth brain? We have philosophical arguments, cosmological evidence, fine-tuning of universal constants, but let me guess, you want God to appear in your bedroom and do a fucking tap dance.
The duty of proof or burden of proof according to the rule of logic lies with the assertor. Therefore, if it is asserted that God exists, then the one who asserts it is obliged to prove it. The duty of the denier is to refute the evidence put forward by the assertor. All evidence of the existence of God without exception has been refuted. Moreover, scientists have come to the conclusion that it is impossible to prove the existence of God in principle. Therefore, the assertion that God exists has no basis and according to the law of logic is not true, that is, it is false.Third, absence of evidence is NOT evidence of absence, you absolute waste of oxygen. That's basic fucking logic.
No one discovered quantum mechanics.
it's just an abstract concept (like your god). But at least it's used to describe the behavior of matter.
God is used for this purpose too (but it's all pseudoscientific nonsense): Why does it rain? - Because the rain god sends it.
Why does the world exist? - Because god created it.
Why do natural disasters happen? - It's the wrath of the gods.
but at least quantum mechanics is used in science, and God is pseudoscientific.
no you don't have any proof. It is clear from the start that God is not material (and therefore does not exist) and he is only in your head. But if you want, then show all your unphilosophical, cosmological, etc. proofs.
The duty of proof or burden of proof according to the rule of logic lies with the assertor. Therefore, if it is asserted that God exists, then the one who asserts it is obliged to prove it. The duty of the denier is to refute the evidence put forward by the assertor. All evidence of the existence of God without exception has been refuted. Moreover, scientists have come to the conclusion that it is impossible to prove the existence of God in principle. Therefore, the assertion that God exists has no basis and according to the law of logic is not true, that is, it is false.
quantum mechanics is a mathematical framework and therefore it is an abstract concept, math is an abstract thing. Your god is also abstract like mathematics. He does not exist in reality, but only in your head.Quantum mechanics ISN'T just an 'abstract concept' you ignorant fuck. It's a mathematical framework that describes OBSERVED PHENOMENA. We can literally measure and predict quantum effects. But guess what? The MATH behind it (the abstract part) existed before we discovered it. The Schrödinger equation wasn't INVENTED, it was DISCOVERED as a description of reality.
religioncel cope, if we are talking about fundamental questions of existence, consciousness and morality, then God has absolutely nothing to do with it (He does not exist), He does not give all the answers to this. Religion offers its interpretations and that's it. This is the subjective opinion of the authors of your fantasy book (the Bible). To connect the rationality of the Universe with faith in God is obviously the ravings of a madman.'Rain gods'
What a way to show you don't understand jack shit about theological arguments.
We're not talking about 'God of the gaps' explanations for natural phenomena. We're talking about fundamental questions of existence, consciousness, and moral absolutes that science CAN'T EVEN ADDRESS.
Science itself rests on philosophical assumptions it can't prove, you fucking moron. The idea that the universe is rational and comprehensible? That's a THEOLOGICAL assumption that came from believing in a rational God!! Even Einstein said the most incomprehensible thing about the universe is that it's comprehensible!
Your primitive understanding of God as some sky daddy who makes it rain shows you're attacking a strawman version of theology that no serious philosopher has believed for centuries. We're talking about the ground of all being, the source of logic and reason itself. Not some Zeus wannabe throwing lightning bolts.
And calling God 'pseudoscientific' just proves you don't understand basic categories. I won't even entertain that shitty statement.
COPE, immaterial things like numbers or laws of logic do exist only in your head not in the real world.Holy FUCK, the materialist delusion is strong with this braindead motherfucker.
'Not material therefore doesn't exist'? Are you actually this fucking stupid? By that logic, numbers don't exist. Laws of logic don't exist. Mathematical truths don't exist. CONSCIOUSNESS itself doesn't exist because it's not material, you absolute waste of neurons.
You want proofs? Fine:
- Cosmological: Everything that BEGINS to exist has a cause. The universe began to exist (Big Bang). Therefore the universe has a cause that must be timeless, spaceless, and immaterial - exactly what we'd expect of God.
- Fine-tuning: Universal constants are balanced on a knife's edge. Change them by a fraction and no life possible.
- Moral argument: Objective moral values exist. In a purely material universe, there can't be objective morals - just chemical reactions and survival instincts. Yet even YOU live like objective morals exist, you hypocritical fuck.
- Consciousness: How does dead matter produce consciousness? How do purely physical brain states produce subjective experience? Materialism can't explain this shit.
And, the thing is, you intellectually bankrupt cumstain: You're making a philosophical claim while rejecting philosophy!!!
You're saying 'only material things exist', but that statement itself isn't a MATERIAL THING. It's a philosophical position that defeats itself. Your demand for 'unphilosophical proofs' shows you don't understand basic epistemology. ALL proofs rely on philosophy, including your precious science.
hypercope, the cosmologicalThe cosmological argument hasn't been refuted.
The moral argument hasn't been refuted.
The argument from consciousness hasn't been refuted.
You're just declaring victory without doing the philosophical heavy lifting.
And which 'scientists' exactly say it's impossible to prove God?
Science can't even fucking ADDRESS the question of God's existence. It's like trying to weigh love with a fucking ruler - wrong category entirely. Scientists who claim they've disproven God are stepping WAY outside their lane.
Oh, and by the way: Science itself REQUIRES God-like assumptions to even function!!!
You believe:
- The universe is rational and comprehensible
- Our minds can accurately understand reality
- Mathematical truths are universal
- Logic works consistently
Where the FUCK do these assumptions come from in your materialist worldview? You're sawing off the branch you're sitting on. And, please, don't give me that 'science works' bullshit. Science works BECAUSE these God-given principles exist.
quantum mechanics is a mathematical framework and therefore it is an abstract concept, math is an abstract thing. Your god is also abstract like mathematics. He does not exist in reality, but only in your head.
I'm surprised that someone calls you high IQ, although you do not understand even the simplest things.
religioncel cope, if we are talking about fundamental questions of existence, consciousness and morality, then God has absolutely nothing to do with it (He does not exist), He does not give all the answers to this. Religion offers its interpretations and that's it. This is the subjective opinion of the authors of your fantasy book (the Bible). To connect the rationality of the Universe with faith in God is obviously the ravings of a madman.
The rationality of the Universe exists without theology, for example, through the anthropic principle or the multiverse.
Logic and reason exists through the evolution and development of the human brain. We do not need to resort to the supernatural to explain why we are able to think rationally.
If God claims to explain natural phenomena (for example, "God created the Universe"), then such nonsense automatically falls into the realm of pseudoscience, since they cannot be verified and refuted. Science requires empirical evidence, and religion offers faith. Science is for rational people, religion is for primitive retards.
God is pseudoscientific. The book of fiction (the Bible) contains obvious contradictions to reality (i.e. the theory of evolution, and the sciences of astronomy, geology, etc.) Simply because the first chapter of the Book of Genesis describes the creation of the world in six days, including the creation of plants, animals, and man. This is obviously untrue and nonsense.
hypercope, the cosmologicalnonseneargument very problematic and it's very easy to debunk it.
Because it claims that everything that exists has a cause for its existence, which is of course bullshit.
First: If everything must have a cause, then what is the cause of God himself? If God does not need a cause, then why can't the Universe be the same - existing without a cause?
Second: At the level of quantum phenomena, there are events that are uncaused (virtual particles or quantum uncertainty).
Cosmological models such as quantum gravity or the multiverse offer explanations for the origin of the Universe without the need for divine intervention.
Moreover, there is a very weak connection between cause and God. Even if the Universe has a cause, this does not mean that this cause is God. It could be a natural process that we do not yet know about.
Now let's talk about the stupid moral argument.
First, Moral principles developed through evolution and sociobiology. Humans, as social beings, developed moral norms to survive and thrive in groups. There is nothing divine about it. There is no such thing as objective morality, different societies have different moral principles, it is a social thing for the most part. Slavery was once considered morally acceptable, but today it is condemned.
I have already refuted the argument of consciousness, read above.
I have already refuted the argument of consciousness, read above.
Overall, I destroyed you in this debate.
Your argument is based on a misunderstanding of materialism and the nature of abstractions just because you are a pretty primitive chimp (no offence).You just proved my fucking point while being too stupid to realize it, you absolute smoothbrain.
Let me spell it out in terms even your room-temperature IQ might grasp:
YES, math is abstract - that's exactly the fucking problem for your materialist worldview.
How do abstract, universal, unchanging mathematical truths EXIST in a universe that's supposedly nothing but physical stuff? Where do these transcendent truths COME FROM?
The Schrödinger equation DESCRIBES reality perfectly, but guess what: it's not a physical thing! It's an abstract truth that governs physical reality while existing beyond it. Just like logic, just like moral truths, just like consciousness - these are all non-physical realities that your pathetic materialist worldview can't explain.
JFL at this cope, your emotional essay is full of superficial statements (I continue to destroy you in an elegant way).Holy FUCKING shit, the depths of your philosophical ignorance are actually impressive.
The anthropic principle? That's not an EXPLANATION you dipshit, it's an OBSERVATION. Saying 'the universe must be compatible with observers because we observe it' explains NOTHING about WHY it's rational.
The multiverse? You're replacing God with an infinite number of unobservable universes and think that's MORE rational? Talk about fucking faith.
'Evolution explains rationality'
Are you fucking HIGH? Natural selection selects for SURVIVAL, not TRUTH. In a purely material universe, there's no reason our evolved meat computers should be able to grasp abstract mathematical truths.
And your understanding of Genesis is as shallow as your understanding of everything else.
The Bible isn't a fucking science textbook, you historically illiterate waste of oxygen. The creation account uses ancient Near Eastern literary devices to convey THEOLOGICAL truth about God's relationship to creation.
The early church fathers knew this wasn't literal - Augustine warned against making Christianity look stupid by treating Genesis as a science text.
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But let's get to your bigger fuckup: claiming science requires empirical evidence while religion offers faith. You clearly don't know shit about epistemology. Science itself REQUIRES faith in unprovable assumptions:
- That our senses are reliable
- That the future will resemble the past
- That mathematical truths apply universally
- That our minds can comprehend reality
You can't PROVE any of these empirically. NONE.
You take them on FAITH because they make science possible. And where do these rational principles come from?
The answer that God has always existed is not an answer, but an evasion of the answer.First, you absolute smoothbrain, the cosmological argument says everything that BEGINS TO EXIST has a cause.
God, being eternal and necessary, doesn't BEGIN to exist. The universe, having a finite past, DOES. Basic fucking logic!!
God also does not explain the origin of these laws too.'Quantum events are uncaused'? Wrong again, dipshit.
Quantum events have PROBABILISTIC causes, not NO causes. And even if truly uncaused events existed, they'd still need a quantum vacuum and physical laws to exist IN - they don't explain ultimate origins.
Dude, even in a materialistic world we can say that such actions are harmful to society and individuals and therefore they are wrong.'evolution explains morality' Pure bullshit. Evolution might explain why we HAVE moral beliefs, but it can't explain why any moral claims are actually TRUE.
If morality is just evolutionary programming, then there's no REAL right or wrong, just what helped our ancestors survive.
-Rape
- Murder
- Genocide
can't say they're ACTUALLY wrong, just that we evolved to dislike them!
That's your 'enlightened' worldview?
delete this disgusting chimp. Non-pale skin is beyond ugly.
you are really stupid if you don't understand. Consciousness is simply a product of physical processes in the brain. Subjective experience is identical to certain neural processes. We also know which areas of the brain are activated by certain experiences, and which brain disorders lead to changes in consciousnessYou're genuinely retarded. Like, seriously.
You haven't 'refuted' consciousness for shit.
- How does purely physical matter give rise to subjective experience?
- How do electrochemical signals in a meat computer create the sensation of seeing red or feeling pain?
It's called the 'hard problem of consciousness' for a reason, you infant.
hypercope, logic evolved as a tool for survival and problem solving. Logic is based on physical processes in the brain, but that doesn't make it any less reliable. Physical processes obey certain laws, and logic is a way of reflecting those laws. We trust logic because it works. What are the alternatives to logic? Intuition? Faith? They often lead to contradictory and incorrect conclusions.Your whole worldview is a house of cards built on stolen capital from theism.
You want to steal the foundations of rationality while denying their source? Let me make this crystal fucking clear:
- You use LOGIC to argue against God - but in your worldview, logic is just neurons firing!! Why trust it?
- You appeal to MORAL OUTRAGE about religion - but in your worldview, morality is just chemical reactions!! Why should anyone care?
- You rely on MATHEMATICAL CERTAINTY - but in your worldview, math is just a human construct!! Why does it work?
- You trust SCIENTIFIC LAWS - but in your worldview, these are just patterns we've noticed!! Why expect them to continue?
Every fucking argument you make ASSUMES the very thing you're trying to deny - an intelligent, rational foundation to reality.
Holy FUCK, the Dunning-Kruger is strong with this one.
You haven't even managed to grasp the BASICS of what you're arguing against, you delusional fucking troglodyte. Let me recap your intellectual failures:
- You confused 'begins to exist' with 'exists' in the cosmological argument
- You think evolution explains objective morality while admitting morality is subjective
- You claim quantum mechanics refutes causation while not understanding quantum mechanics
- You use reason to argue against the foundation of reason
- You make moral claims while denying moral truth exists
- You trust science while undermining its philosophical foundations
You haven't 'destroyed' anything except your own credibility.
Fucking embarrassing.