How the mandible matches maxillary width, and expanding the mandible with MSE alone (High IQcels GTFIH)

[Bigcel]

 

[000]

For the past several months i have been wondering how the mandible naturally grows to meet the maxilla in nearly every case, regardless of oral posture. With the environmental factors being negligible in determining if the mandible will match the maxilla, it almost seems like the body has some "self regulating" way of just knowing how much the mandible needs to expand. However if the body has this "all knowing way" of expanding the mandible, it poses the question, why doesn't the mandible expand to meet the maxilla when its expanded with something like MSE? I mean you never see someone with a super wide maxilla and a tiny ass mandible, it just doesnt happen they are always together, but why? I looked through so many studies and found literally nothing. Many people who pride themselves in orthotropic knowledge know nothing on this question, not to mention there isnt a single video on the orthotropics youtube that addresses mandibular widening, and the process that causes it, while we know the mandible expands to match the maxilla, know one really knows how or why, some people claim keeping your teeth together will cause it to keep up with the maxilla, but that is just pure spectulation, this is my theory.

First lets remember that the temporomandibular joints attach at the temporal bone, and the zygomatic bone View attachment 427228
Now that we see the TM joint is connected to the zygos, this is what regulates jaw width, as the maxilla expands laterally, the zygos will be pushed outwards increasing the bizygo distance, since the mandible is connected to the zygos, as it expands the mandible will also be under pressure to adapt to the new position, and it will cause the mandible to widen, so the TM joint is not having to compensate by stretching.

This is the mechanism summed up: Maxilla expands increasing the distance between the location where the TM joints bridge the mandible to the rest of the skull, as the TM joints widen, they are stretched which prompts the mandible to stimulate new bone growth to widen.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32039632/ - RME in growing patients is able, in the short term, to modify the condyle-fossa relationship
View attachment 427237
This picture demonstrates how widening the mandible will manifest in a wider dental arch for the non visual thinkers out there lol

Notice how there is no force acting upon the lower dental arch, but as the mandible expands, the teeth will remain in their same relative position to the mandible, but will also be widened as the jaw is widened.

This is the "natural regulator" of occlusion, whenever the maxilla is widened, the mandible also widens due to the location it attaches to being widened, prompting it to widen in structure itsself. Because of this crossbites are relatively uncommon, and they are more due to other poor oral posture habits, not genetic.



Now the question: If this is true why doesn't MSE expand the mandible? Simple, MSE expands way too fast for the mandible to develop new bone to widen, bone will not just instantly form the second the TM joint is stretched, especially not at the rate the MSE expands.
View attachment 427242
To compensate the cartilage, being elastic in nature will stretch to keep the mandible connected to the rest of the skull.

There should be no age limiting factor like a suture maturing here, so how do we expand the mandible with MSE without need for MSDO, or SFOT?

1. Once the suture is split, expand more slowly, this will give more time for your jaw to create new bone to catch up to the zygos and the temporal bones

2. CHEW CHEW AND CHEW MORE, we know that stress on bone causes microstrains which will prompt the bone to increase in mass, basically the entire premise of bone smashing.
View attachment 427245
I do not know if this is simply coincidence or not, but as you can see the highest areas of stress, are exactly at the location where new bone is needed

3. Take supplements that increase osteoblasts, such as vitamin K2, D3, Calcium, Magnesium, Boron, and anything that increases HGH







this may be completely wrong but hey this is what science is about


just found this FUCKING LIFE FUEL for this theory. https://scidoc.org/IJDOS-2377-8075-07-302.php


The purpose of this prospective study was to investigate medium-term indirect effects of Maxillary Expansion (RME) therapy on mandibular arch dimensions using two different clinical protocol activation. Sixty patients in mixed dentition (mean age 7.8 y) showing maxillary deficiency and/or unilateral or bilateral cross-bite were treated with RPE (Haas type) on second deciduous molars. For patient in RME group (rapid maxillary expansion), treatment protocol consisted of 2 turns per day: For patient in SME (slow maxillary expansion) group treatment protocol consisted of 2 turns per week. Study models were taken before (T1) and after expansion (T2) with 12 ± 4 months interval. Dental cast were digitized with a 3D scanner (3Shape, DK) and a set of landmarks was digitized on each digital model. Mandibular intermolar distance (MID), mandibular molar torque (MMT), mandibular intercanine distance (MIcD) and mandibular canine torque (MCT) were assessed. At T1, no differences at baseline were found between groups. At T2, in RME group, mandibular intermolar distance (MID) increased 1.2 mm and MMT increased 6.5°. In SME group MID increased 1.3 mm and mandibular molar torque (MMT) increased 6.2°. There was a significant effect on mandibular intercanine distance (MIcD) (RME +0.8 mm, SME +0.9 mm) and on and mandibular canine torque (MCT) (RME +3.4°, SME +3.8°). The improvement in transversal and torque measurement did not differ between groups. In conclusion, both rapid and slow maxillary expansion protocols have a significant medium-term widening effect on the mandibular first molars and canines.

Basically means expanding the maxilla will also widen the mandible (it was done using expanders so no specific "oral posture" caused it, simply a reaction from the expansion, and SME expands the mandible more than RPE, like the theory claims as it gives more time for bone to grow.

So after my suture is split I do 1 turn per day (about) on MSE?

 

[5'7 zoomer]

@Dr. Bruh another interesting thread

 

[DownUnderCopeAttack]

For the past several months i have been wondering how the mandible naturally grows to meet the maxilla in nearly every case, regardless of oral posture. With the environmental factors being negligible in determining if the mandible will match the maxilla, it almost seems like the body has some "self regulating" way of just knowing how much the mandible needs to expand. However if the body has this "all knowing way" of expanding the mandible, it poses the question, why doesn't the mandible expand to meet the maxilla when its expanded with something like MSE? I mean you never see someone with a super wide maxilla and a tiny ass mandible, it just doesnt happen they are always together, but why? I looked through so many studies and found literally nothing. Many people who pride themselves in orthotropic knowledge know nothing on this question, not to mention there isnt a single video on the orthotropics youtube that addresses mandibular widening, and the process that causes it, while we know the mandible expands to match the maxilla, know one really knows how or why, some people claim keeping your teeth together will cause it to keep up with the maxilla, but that is just pure spectulation, this is my theory.

First lets remember that the temporomandibular joints attach at the temporal bone, and the zygomatic bone View attachment 427228
Now that we see the TM joint is connected to the zygos, this is what regulates jaw width, as the maxilla expands laterally, the zygos will be pushed outwards increasing the bizygo distance, since the mandible is connected to the zygos, as it expands the mandible will also be under pressure to adapt to the new position, and it will cause the mandible to widen, so the TM joint is not having to compensate by stretching.

This is the mechanism summed up: Maxilla expands increasing the distance between the location where the TM joints bridge the mandible to the rest of the skull, as the TM joints widen, they are stretched which prompts the mandible to stimulate new bone growth to widen.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32039632/ - RME in growing patients is able, in the short term, to modify the condyle-fossa relationship
View attachment 427237
This picture demonstrates how widening the mandible will manifest in a wider dental arch for the non visual thinkers out there lol

Notice how there is no force acting upon the lower dental arch, but as the mandible expands, the teeth will remain in their same relative position to the mandible, but will also be widened as the jaw is widened.

This is the "natural regulator" of occlusion, whenever the maxilla is widened, the mandible also widens due to the location it attaches to being widened, prompting it to widen in structure itsself. Because of this crossbites are relatively uncommon, and they are more due to other poor oral posture habits, not genetic.



Now the question: If this is true why doesn't MSE expand the mandible? Simple, MSE expands way too fast for the mandible to develop new bone to widen, bone will not just instantly form the second the TM joint is stretched, especially not at the rate the MSE expands.
View attachment 427242
To compensate the cartilage, being elastic in nature will stretch to keep the mandible connected to the rest of the skull.

There should be no age limiting factor like a suture maturing here, so how do we expand the mandible with MSE without need for MSDO, or SFOT?

1. Once the suture is split, expand more slowly, this will give more time for your jaw to create new bone to catch up to the zygos and the temporal bones

2. CHEW CHEW AND CHEW MORE, we know that stress on bone causes microstrains which will prompt the bone to increase in mass, basically the entire premise of bone smashing.
View attachment 427245
I do not know if this is simply coincidence or not, but as you can see the highest areas of stress, are exactly at the location where new bone is needed

3. Take supplements that increase osteoblasts, such as vitamin K2, D3, Calcium, Magnesium, Boron, and anything that increases HGH







this may be completely wrong but hey this is what science is about


just found this FUCKING LIFE FUEL for this theory. https://scidoc.org/IJDOS-2377-8075-07-302.php


The purpose of this prospective study was to investigate medium-term indirect effects of Maxillary Expansion (RME) therapy on mandibular arch dimensions using two different clinical protocol activation. Sixty patients in mixed dentition (mean age 7.8 y) showing maxillary deficiency and/or unilateral or bilateral cross-bite were treated with RPE (Haas type) on second deciduous molars. For patient in RME group (rapid maxillary expansion), treatment protocol consisted of 2 turns per day: For patient in SME (slow maxillary expansion) group treatment protocol consisted of 2 turns per week. Study models were taken before (T1) and after expansion (T2) with 12 ± 4 months interval. Dental cast were digitized with a 3D scanner (3Shape, DK) and a set of landmarks was digitized on each digital model. Mandibular intermolar distance (MID), mandibular molar torque (MMT), mandibular intercanine distance (MIcD) and mandibular canine torque (MCT) were assessed. At T1, no differences at baseline were found between groups. At T2, in RME group, mandibular intermolar distance (MID) increased 1.2 mm and MMT increased 6.5°. In SME group MID increased 1.3 mm and mandibular molar torque (MMT) increased 6.2°. There was a significant effect on mandibular intercanine distance (MIcD) (RME +0.8 mm, SME +0.9 mm) and on and mandibular canine torque (MCT) (RME +3.4°, SME +3.8°). The improvement in transversal and torque measurement did not differ between groups. In conclusion, both rapid and slow maxillary expansion protocols have a significant medium-term widening effect on the mandibular first molars and canines.

Basically means expanding the maxilla will also widen the mandible (it was done using expanders so no specific "oral posture" caused it, simply a reaction from the expansion, and SME expands the mandible more than RPE, like the theory claims as it gives more time for bone to grow.

You really think the mandible grows the March the maxilla?

 

[Deleted member 15698]

Alternate title: “How I’m coping myself to believe that MSE won’t fuck my occlusion”

 

[spark]

Just adding megadosing K2 is counterproductive to remodeling and bonesmashing is a fucking meme from older lookism lmao, idk why people still unironically spread it.

I doubt that what you are describing is the proper mechanism just because of how much pressure that would place on the temporomandibular condyles (seems like it would use that as a lever). This is also a common issue that comes up with jaw health in mandible distraction patients.

Anyone knows why he said

megadosing K2 is counterproductive to remodeling

?

 

[letsdoit]

For the past several months i have been wondering how the mandible naturally grows to meet the maxilla in nearly every case, regardless of oral posture. With the environmental factors being negligible in determining if the mandible will match the maxilla, it almost seems like the body has some "self regulating" way of just knowing how much the mandible needs to expand. However if the body has this "all knowing way" of expanding the mandible, it poses the question, why doesn't the mandible expand to meet the maxilla when its expanded with something like MSE? I mean you never see someone with a super wide maxilla and a tiny ass mandible, it just doesnt happen they are always together, but why? I looked through so many studies and found literally nothing. Many people who pride themselves in orthotropic knowledge know nothing on this question, not to mention there isnt a single video on the orthotropics youtube that addresses mandibular widening, and the process that causes it, while we know the mandible expands to match the maxilla, know one really knows how or why, some people claim keeping your teeth together will cause it to keep up with the maxilla, but that is just pure spectulation, this is my theory.

First lets remember that the temporomandibular joints attach at the temporal bone, and the zygomatic bone View attachment 427228
Now that we see the TM joint is connected to the zygos, this is what regulates jaw width, as the maxilla expands laterally, the zygos will be pushed outwards increasing the bizygo distance, since the mandible is connected to the zygos, as it expands the mandible will also be under pressure to adapt to the new position, and it will cause the mandible to widen, so the TM joint is not having to compensate by stretching.

This is the mechanism summed up: Maxilla expands increasing the distance between the location where the TM joints bridge the mandible to the rest of the skull, as the TM joints widen, they are stretched which prompts the mandible to stimulate new bone growth to widen.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32039632/ - RME in growing patients is able, in the short term, to modify the condyle-fossa relationship
View attachment 427237
This picture demonstrates how widening the mandible will manifest in a wider dental arch for the non visual thinkers out there lol

Notice how there is no force acting upon the lower dental arch, but as the mandible expands, the teeth will remain in their same relative position to the mandible, but will also be widened as the jaw is widened.

This is the "natural regulator" of occlusion, whenever the maxilla is widened, the mandible also widens due to the location it attaches to being widened, prompting it to widen in structure itsself. Because of this crossbites are relatively uncommon, and they are more due to other poor oral posture habits, not genetic.



Now the question: If this is true why doesn't MSE expand the mandible? Simple, MSE expands way too fast for the mandible to develop new bone to widen, bone will not just instantly form the second the TM joint is stretched, especially not at the rate the MSE expands.
View attachment 427242
To compensate the cartilage, being elastic in nature will stretch to keep the mandible connected to the rest of the skull.

There should be no age limiting factor like a suture maturing here, so how do we expand the mandible with MSE without need for MSDO, or SFOT?

1. Once the suture is split, expand more slowly, this will give more time for your jaw to create new bone to catch up to the zygos and the temporal bones

2. CHEW CHEW AND CHEW MORE, we know that stress on bone causes microstrains which will prompt the bone to increase in mass, basically the entire premise of bone smashing.
View attachment 427245
I do not know if this is simply coincidence or not, but as you can see the highest areas of stress, are exactly at the location where new bone is needed

3. Take supplements that increase osteoblasts, such as vitamin K2, D3, Calcium, Magnesium, Boron, and anything that increases HGH







this may be completely wrong but hey this is what science is about


just found this FUCKING LIFE FUEL for this theory. https://scidoc.org/IJDOS-2377-8075-07-302.php


The purpose of this prospective study was to investigate medium-term indirect effects of Maxillary Expansion (RME) therapy on mandibular arch dimensions using two different clinical protocol activation. Sixty patients in mixed dentition (mean age 7.8 y) showing maxillary deficiency and/or unilateral or bilateral cross-bite were treated with RPE (Haas type) on second deciduous molars. For patient in RME group (rapid maxillary expansion), treatment protocol consisted of 2 turns per day: For patient in SME (slow maxillary expansion) group treatment protocol consisted of 2 turns per week. Study models were taken before (T1) and after expansion (T2) with 12 ± 4 months interval. Dental cast were digitized with a 3D scanner (3Shape, DK) and a set of landmarks was digitized on each digital model. Mandibular intermolar distance (MID), mandibular molar torque (MMT), mandibular intercanine distance (MIcD) and mandibular canine torque (MCT) were assessed. At T1, no differences at baseline were found between groups. At T2, in RME group, mandibular intermolar distance (MID) increased 1.2 mm and MMT increased 6.5°. In SME group MID increased 1.3 mm and mandibular molar torque (MMT) increased 6.2°. There was a significant effect on mandibular intercanine distance (MIcD) (RME +0.8 mm, SME +0.9 mm) and on and mandibular canine torque (MCT) (RME +3.4°, SME +3.8°). The improvement in transversal and torque measurement did not differ between groups. In conclusion, both rapid and slow maxillary expansion protocols have a significant medium-term widening effect on the mandibular first molars and canines.

Basically means expanding the maxilla will also widen the mandible (it was done using expanders so no specific "oral posture" caused it, simply a reaction from the expansion, and SME expands the mandible more than RPE, like the theory claims as it gives more time for bone to grow.

In summary, turn slow, chew with it in, and take hgh increasing supps.
Lifeful

 

[letsdoit]

Reviving this before I get my MSE

 

[5'7 zoomer]

Reviving this before I get my MSE

Ye read OP's threads it might help ya

 

[letsdoit]

Anyone knows why he said

?

Wondering this as well

 

[letsdoit]

Ye read OP's threads it might help ya

Are you being sarcastic?

 

[Deleted member 8758]

No, I wish it did be that but it dont be like that.
I think if the splanchocranium has dropped too low, theres not enough lateral dimensions for condylar expansion. It appears that the bone behavior is prioritizing keeping the condyles close. Neurocranium is probably the limiting factor as with many things.

Pic was me mid expansion.

 

[5'7 zoomer]

No, I wish it did be that but it dont be like that.
I think if the splanchocranium has dropped too low, theres not enough lateral dimensions for condylar expansion. It appears that the bone behavior is prioritizing keeping the condyles close. Neurocranium is probably the limiting factor as with many things.

Pic was me mid expansion.
View attachment 2152527

Can the neurocranium still expand after the age of 10?

 

[Deleted member 8758]

Can the neurocranium still expand after the age of 10?View attachment 2152847

I think so. Neurocranium changes in *some* dimensions as you age even past adulthood. I know my skull shape has changed in terrible ways since i was 20. Its caused my face to be more downshifted.