I brutally destroyed my intelligence/moneymaxxing potential due to inceldom.

[MoggerGaston]

@syobevoli here

Extremely long text incoming. If u dont want to read, leave.

I hope some youngcels can learn something from my life story maybe. I am a 27yo guy right now that is basically a NEET about to go ER. But it wasn't always like this, but maybe it was always meant to be.


I was never the hardest working student, but my 128IQ carried me hard in school to the point where at the age of 17 (when you graduate high-school in the netherlands) I was among the top 1% scoring students of the country, which gave me access to every single university and program I wanted to get into.

At the age of 17 though I was:
-Abused by my parents.
-KHHV truecel
-Had a small social circle of gamer-nerds as only friends. No women.
-Depressed

I had free access to med school in the netherlands. But I deemed it too easy and a waste of time for someone like me. So I rejected it.
Note: Med school is the mostly highly sought after education in the netherlands, it's extremely hard to get in (everyone wants it), but once you are in it is easy and low-skill. Just memorization and reproduction.

Ended up thinking of doing a gap-year or something cuz I hated my life and didn't know what to do. My parents threatened to kick me out of the house if I didn't go to university right away or got a job to support myself instead.

These threats led to me enrolling myself into Physics. It was considered the hardest program that this country had to offer and I hoped it would motivate me to excell. I hoped I would finally find the validation and appreciation I never got in life if I did well in this program. I hoped it would make me enjoy my life again, also I was always really good in physics in high school.

My parents refused to support me financially to study in another city, so I was forced to commute to this new university in another city from home. This took 4 hours every day, I had to wake up 6:15AM in the morning and generally i would get home at 8PM.

I would get home at 8PM, eat, play games 2-3 hours, go to bed. Repeat. Life was brutal.
I was still a truecel. I made some acquintainces mainly some guys that were also very smart that worked together with me at university. But nothing that lasted beyond the lecture halls.

I didn't get motivated and was getting less motivated as time went on. The loneliness was getting to me and I was looking for 'ways out of life' with videogames.

I still passed my first 2 years of physics with decent grades (Top ~30% and considered talented, but nothing special). Third year I got into a legal argument with my university and I had to go to court over being allowed to make a certain exam. Ended up losing the court-battle which led to requiring an additional 3 months to get a certain exam done. It was brutal to me because I considered the university to be a place where students would be supported, instead of actively be fought in court-battles over being allowed to make a fucking exam.

This court-battle that I lost felt like a brutal stab in the back. I was eagerly looking for any type of validation or appreciation for what I was doing, but instead I was getting sabotaged over shitty rules that (later I discovered) where hardly enforced anyways. Only somehow in my case they strictly were. (Not being allowed to make a certain exam, made it impossible for me to pass a certain course, which made it inevitable to for me to get a delayed graduation)

This same year I started looksmaxxing. I was 20yo at this point and didn't know of the blackpill. I started going to the gym and tracking calories to lose weight. Ended up losing interest in university and skipping lectures. Failing more and more courses, but still passing some here and there.

I now had a completed 1st + 2nd year. But a failed 3rd year of university. It's a 3-year program by the way. So I am basically 2/3 on the way now.

The next year, I passed only a single course (1/12 of a year) which basically means I didn't progress at all. I hardly went to my university anymore as the commute was too brutal and I lost interest. Resulting in a complete year wasted. I was completely demotivated in life and in my studies.
I took all the bluepilled advice and went to my general practitioner who send me through to a therapist to treat my depression.

I got on SSRI's right away, started doing weekly therapy sessions talking about my issues. In the mean-time still going to the gym, socializing with my nerd-friends, playing videogames, but hardly working on my studies.

SSRI's didn't work at all (escitalopram (called lexapro in the US) didnt work at all) and therapy wasnt making any progress whatsoever in a year time. Ended up switching therapists 3 times but to no avail.

At this time I also first installed dating apps (age 22). Hardly got any matches. Went on 1 date with a girl that rejected me. Whatever. My dating profile looked like this:

I considered online-dating a waste of time and deleted Tinder. Instead I started social-maxxing. Mainly by going clubbing more often, but also by joining (latin) dance courses in the city that I studied at. Hoping to connect and interact with more women that way.

This is how I looked like at this point (age 22)

This was brutally unsuccesfull. All the interactions I was getting from women in clubs were negative and that of brutal rejection. Women in clubs wanted low-inhib beasts, not a 22yo mediocre looking KHHV.

The girls at my dance club were more positive and I got some more positive interactions there. But nothing ever led anywhere.


At 22yo I considered it time to make more drastic changes. I conspired to leave my elderly abusive home and arranged for a student-dorm without their knowledge as I knew they wouldn't agree with it.

Once I had it all arranged, I notified my parents of my departure and they had the brutal response that I expected: They told me I was disowned as a child and I was to receive absolutely 0 help with anything ever if I go through with these plans. They also had my cousins and their family talk to me to tell me that it would be terrible thing to move out.

I ended up moving out anyways without their support, but once I started arranging things, suddenly my parents started helping me again to move my shit to here. Pretending like they were always ready for me (brutal narc abusive gaslighting retard parents pill).

Anyways I ended up having to ditch my old therapist from my old city. And applied to new mental health-care in my new city.

This is the time I found the blackpill (age 23).

Nothing really changed except for me playing less videogames and spending more times on blackpill forums/discord/reddits.

Mental-healthcare was shit and ended up not vibing at all with my therapist. I dropped it and focused on self-improvement against. Started reading a lot about stoicicism, meditation-techniques and mindfullness. Also joined group yoga-classes, group running classes.

Unfortunately all to no avail and I wasted another year with 0 classes passed. But leanmaxxing was going well:

Next study-year I considered myself 'looksmaxxed enough' to start social-maxxing hardcore.

I doubled down on my (latin) dance classes and started doing 2 classes at once. But more importantly: I joined a student fraternity in the new city that I now lived in.

This fraternity is one of the biggest of my city and considered the 'top of student-life' basically, if you know what I mean.

i was also at my leanest and best-looking at this period of time tbh.


Results:

At my dancing classes I got told I look like a player/fuckboy (despite still being KHHV). Girls didn't really like me and weren't friendly to me, except my most common dance-partner that was somewhat open to me. I could've had a chance with her in hindsight if I pushed it myself, but I didn't and neither did she. So nothing ended up happening.

More importantly, my fraternity: I partied hard here 2-3 days per week. With absolutely ZERO results. I was 22yo and a lot of the people there considered me 'oldcel' already. Since I was new there I was coupled/paired with fresh students (18yo) and I was constantly being told how weird it was for a 22yo like me to be around 18yo's. Ngl it was very brutal and ofcourse also had to do with how old I looke due to my poor collagen and hairline. The 18-20yo girls wanted nothing to do with me.


Luckily around this time I met my first ever girl I kissed, had sex with, first girlfriend. Through tinder, pure luck tbh, I was hardly getting matches but this girl pulled through.

It was a long-distance relationship and she thought of me as this mogger guy that was high-status in a good fraternity and excelling in school. This wasn't reality, so when that came crashing down, the relationship ended.

During all this time I was still passing 0 exams, 0 courses.

I was extremely positive in my mindset at this point though. Losing my virginity to a girl like this, getting relationship experience. Now things can finally go well with women right?

Nope. I got a few one-night stands with girls, but nothing ever sticked.

I ended up wasting another full year in the same fraternity and trying to replicate the results I got with this girl I had my first relationship with.

0 success.

I ended up growing out my hair to try a different vibe/style.

Years went by with almost no real progress in life.

Didn't pass courses.
Started another mental-healthcare therapy that led nowhere
Dating didn't go anywhere
Didn't make any real new social circles

Covid happened.

Had a couple of different jobs.
Lost all of my money in failed investments.

Dated a german artsy girl for almost a year in 2021. Didn't go anywhere.

Boom it's 2022.

I still didn't pass a single course (1/12 of a year) since 2017 (!!!). 5 years and not a single exam passed.

And life is where I am now:

27yo.

-6 years behind my peers in my academic/career achievements.
-still inexperienced with romance/sex/relationships. About 9 years behind here.
-no family (ended up ditching them all together as I considered them toxic).
-few friends I had are gone.

0 money (and also 100k in student debt).
No degree. (But I could still finish this physics degree I havent passed a single course for in 6 years though jfl)




Thoughts?

 

[MoggerGaston]

@DoctorLooksmax @Biggdink @WhiteBlackpiller @Gargantuan @ike57 @RAITEIII @TsarTsar444 @Zenturio @StreegeReturn @StepbroMo @alriodai @Mouthbreath @Johnnybegood @Xangsane @Lars @aBetterMii @Elvisandreaa @p0lishsubhuman @MRD

 

[aBetterMii]

Start a new life in a new country, become a brand new person, finish your education, and give it a shot to make MGTOW youtube videos to become mega rich

 

[Be_ConfidentBro]

What the hell man that is absolutely brutal, you were and are still good looking.

 

[fukmylyf]

is this a suicide note

 

[GetShrekt]

What the hell man that is absolutely brutal, you were and are still good looking.

Not with that midface

 

[FutureSlayer]

You're absolutely gl. IMHO join the mormons or the jeovah witness and cultmax, they will basically arrange you an Ltr

 

[Prettyboy]

I would first get money in check, you are clearly high IQ but physics on itself is useless

You need to focus toward high paying careers like software engineering, data science or quantitative finance, you already have the foundation

 

[RAITEIII]

@syobevoli here

Extremely long text incoming. If u dont want to read, leave.

I hope some youngcels can learn something from my life story maybe. I am a 27yo guy right now that is basically a NEET about to go ER. But it wasn't always like this, but maybe it was always meant to be.


I was never the hardest working student, but my 128IQ carried me hard in school to the point where at the age of 17 (when you graduate high-school in the netherlands) I was among the top 1% scoring students of the country, which gave me access to every single university and program I wanted to get into.

At the age of 17 though I was:
-Abused by my parents.
-KHHV truecel
-Had a small social circle of gamer-nerds as only friends. No women.
-Depressed

I had free access to med school in the netherlands. But I deemed it too easy and a waste of time for someone like me. So I rejected it.
Note: Med school is the mostly highly sought after education in the netherlands, it's extremely hard to get in (everyone wants it), but once you are in it is easy and low-skill. Just memorization and reproduction.

Ended up thinking of doing a gap-year or something cuz I hated my life and didn't know what to do. My parents threatened to kick me out of the house if I didn't go to university right away or got a job to support myself instead.

These threats led to me enrolling myself into Physics. It was considered the hardest program that this country had to offer and I hoped it would motivate me to excell. I hoped I would finally find the validation and appreciation I never got in life if I did well in this program. I hoped it would make me enjoy my life again, also I was always really good in physics in high school.

My parents refused to support me financially to study in another city, so I was forced to commute to this new university in another city from home. This took 4 hours every day, I had to wake up 6:15AM in the morning and generally i would get home at 8PM.

I would get home at 8PM, eat, play games 2-3 hours, go to bed. Repeat. Life was brutal.
I was still a truecel. I made some acquintainces mainly some guys that were also very smart that worked together with me at university. But nothing that lasted beyond the lecture halls.

I didn't get motivated and was getting less motivated as time went on. The loneliness was getting to me and I was looking for 'ways out of life' with videogames.

I still passed my first 2 years of physics with decent grades (Top ~30% and considered talented, but nothing special). Third year I got into a legal argument with my university and I had to go to court over being allowed to make a certain exam. Ended up losing the court-battle which led to requiring an additional 3 months to get a certain exam done. It was brutal to me because I considered the university to be a place where students would be supported, instead of actively be fought in court-battles over being allowed to make a fucking exam.

This court-battle that I lost felt like a brutal stab in the back. I was eagerly looking for any type of validation or appreciation for what I was doing, but instead I was getting sabotaged over shitty rules that (later I discovered) where hardly enforced anyways. Only somehow in my case they strictly were. (Not being allowed to make a certain exam, made it impossible for me to pass a certain course, which made it inevitable to for me to get a delayed graduation)

This same year I started looksmaxxing. I was 20yo at this point and didn't know of the blackpill. I started going to the gym and tracking calories to lose weight. Ended up losing interest in university and skipping lectures. Failing more and more courses, but still passing some here and there.

I now had a completed 1st + 2nd year. But a failed 3rd year of university. It's a 3-year program by the way. So I am basically 2/3 on the way now.

The next year, I passed only a single course (1/12 of a year) which basically means I didn't progress at all. I hardly went to my university anymore as the commute was too brutal and I lost interest. Resulting in a complete year wasted. I was completely demotivated in life and in my studies.
I took all the bluepilled advice and went to my general practitioner who send me through to a therapist to treat my depression.

I got on SSRI's right away, started doing weekly therapy sessions talking about my issues. In the mean-time still going to the gym, socializing with my nerd-friends, playing videogames, but hardly working on my studies.

SSRI's didn't work at all (escitalopram (called lexapro in the US) didnt work at all) and therapy wasnt making any progress whatsoever in a year time. Ended up switching therapists 3 times but to no avail.

At this time I also first installed dating apps (age 22). Hardly got any matches. Went on 1 date with a girl that rejected me. Whatever. My dating profile looked like this:
View attachment 1982987

I considered online-dating a waste of time and deleted Tinder. Instead I started social-maxxing. Mainly by going clubbing more often, but also by joining (latin) dance courses in the city that I studied at. Hoping to connect and interact with more women that way.

This is how I looked like at this point (age 22)

This was brutally unsuccesfull. All the interactions I was getting from women in clubs were negative and that of brutal rejection. Women in clubs wanted low-inhib beasts, not a 22yo mediocre looking KHHV.

The girls at my dance club were more positive and I got some more positive interactions there. But nothing ever led anywhere.


At 22yo I considered it time to make more drastic changes. I conspired to leave my elderly abusive home and arranged for a student-dorm without their knowledge as I knew they wouldn't agree with it.

Once I had it all arranged, I notified my parents of my departure and they had the brutal response that I expected: They told me I was disowned as a child and I was to receive absolutely 0 help with anything ever if I go through with these plans. They also had my cousins and their family talk to me to tell me that it would be terrible thing to move out.

I ended up moving out anyways without their support, but once I started arranging things, suddenly my parents started helping me again to move my shit to here. Pretending like they were always ready for me (brutal narc abusive gaslighting retard parents pill).

Anyways I ended up having to ditch my old therapist from my old city. And applied to new mental health-care in my new city.

This is the time I found the blackpill (age 23).

Nothing really changed except for me playing less videogames and spending more times on blackpill forums/discord/reddits.

Mental-healthcare was shit and ended up not vibing at all with my therapist. I dropped it and focused on self-improvement against. Started reading a lot about stoicicism, meditation-techniques and mindfullness. Also joined group yoga-classes, group running classes.

Unfortunately all to no avail and I wasted another year with 0 classes passed. But leanmaxxing was going well:

Next study-year I considered myself 'looksmaxxed enough' to start social-maxxing hardcore.

I doubled down on my (latin) dance classes and started doing 2 classes at once. But more importantly: I joined a student fraternity in the new city that I now lived in.

This fraternity is one of the biggest of my city and considered the 'top of student-life' basically, if you know what I mean.

i was also at my leanest and best-looking at this period of time tbh.


Results:

At my dancing classes I got told I look like a player/fuckboy (despite still being KHHV). Girls didn't really like me and weren't friendly to me, except my most common dance-partner that was somewhat open to me. I could've had a chance with her in hindsight if I pushed it myself, but I didn't and neither did she. So nothing ended up happening.

More importantly, my fraternity: I partied hard here 2-3 days per week. With absolutely ZERO results. I was 22yo and a lot of the people there considered me 'oldcel' already. Since I was new there I was coupled/paired with fresh students (18yo) and I was constantly being told how weird it was for a 22yo like me to be around 18yo's. Ngl it was very brutal and ofcourse also had to do with how old I looke due to my poor collagen and hairline. The 18-20yo girls wanted nothing to do with me.


Luckily around this time I met my first ever girl I kissed, had sex with, first girlfriend. Through tinder, pure luck tbh, I was hardly getting matches but this girl pulled through.
View attachment 1983024

It was a long-distance relationship and she thought of me as this mogger guy that was high-status in a good fraternity and excelling in school. This wasn't reality, so when that came crashing down, the relationship ended.

During all this time I was still passing 0 exams, 0 courses.

I was extremely positive in my mindset at this point though. Losing my virginity to a girl like this, getting relationship experience. Now things can finally go well with women right?

Nope. I got a few one-night stands with girls, but nothing ever sticked.

I ended up wasting another full year in the same fraternity and trying to replicate the results I got with this girl I had my first relationship with.

0 success.

I ended up growing out my hair to try a different vibe/style.

Years went by with almost no real progress in life.

Didn't pass courses.
Started another mental-healthcare therapy that led nowhere
Dating didn't go anywhere
Didn't make any real new social circles

Covid happened.

Had a couple of different jobs.
Lost all of my money in failed investments.

Dated a german artsy girl for almost a year in 2021. Didn't go anywhere.

Boom it's 2022.

I still didn't pass a single course (1/12 of a year) since 2017 (!!!). 5 years and not a single exam passed.

And life is where I am now:

27yo.

-6 years behind my peers in my academic/career achievements.
-still inexperienced with romance/sex/relationships. About 9 years behind here.
-no family (ended up ditching them all together as I considered them toxic).
-few friends I had are gone.

0 money (and also 100k in student debt).
No degree. (But I could still finish this physics degree I havent passed a single course for in 6 years though jfl)




Thoughts?

Let's business maxx and conquer this world

 

[RAITEIII]

I can relate to you. Coulda shoulda woulda...

 

[AlexAP]

Thoughts?

I feel sorry for you.

I think you were fucked over hard by your circumstances, with your looks you should have easily have a normal upbringing (teen love, social life, clubbing) and have a job and LTR now.

My guess is that you want to stay in the Netherlands. I thought about leaving too but honestly Europe is all I know, starting over new in a shithole country is doomed to fail. At least have a stable income before, and who knows maybe you find someone in your country.

You were Chadlite and had a Stacy gf, look at the bright side.

 

[Deleted member 22099]

Fuck bro I feel for you.
The photo of you smiling in front of the lake; I relate to that so much. The momentary bursts of hope and content that arise amid depressive episodes, only to soon fade away and be given up on.
I can see the pain in your face in that photo.
Try to keep well man.

 

[Deleted member 22099]

I sound like a Facebook mom but seriously I'm sending you virtual hugs.

 

[MoggerGaston]

You're absolutely gl. IMHO join the mormons or the jeovah witness and cultmax, they will basically arrange you an Ltr

I am at a point where a part of me wants to just take some easy career option at this point, get an easy wife, and just enjoy life compared to the insane cortisol I have experienced so far. Just pick something easy and simple instead.

Another part of me though, is extremely angry, enraged. And wants me to become some top financial, status, dating-mogger and dominate. As a payback for all the pain I suffered.

 

[MoggerGaston]

I would first get money in check, you are clearly high IQ but physics on itself is useless

You need to focus toward high paying careers like software engineering, data science or quantitative finance, you already have the foundation

Unironically, my 100k student loan debt was a calculated risk and it's not a huge financial loss.
I could still get my finances to upper-class tier. Maybe through quant-trading, top engineering fuction or something else.

But it's always been a lack of motivation that a better life can be achieved through this. I hate my life and I don't feel like my academic talents have had any positive influence on my life at all, whatsoever.

 

[FutureSlayer]

I am at a point where a part of me wants to just take some easy career option at this point, get an easy wife, and just enjoy life compared to the insane cortisol I have experienced so far. Just pick something easy and simple instead.

Another part of me though, is extremely angry, enraged. And wants me to become some top financial, status, dating-mogger and dominate. As a payback for all the pain I suffered.

You can do both. Basically join one christian cult where your gf is not brainwashed by the feminist leftist system and work your ass off in order to make your revenge

 

[AlexAP]

You can do both. Basically join one christian cult where your gf is not brainwashed by the feminist leftist system and work your ass off in order to make your revenge

Joining a cult doesn't feel like dating-mogging, it's like using a cheat code, the pain from the past will not be erased. He either needs to let go the past or have success in the normal dating market (nice LTR or a few good slays).

 

[FutureSlayer]

Joining a cult doesn't feel like dating-mogging, it's like using a cheat code, the pain from the past will not be erased. He either needs to let go the past or have success in the normal dating market (nice LTR or a few good slays).

The dating game is rigged. You need to play it vanilla with ZERO BODYCOUNT girls as our grandpas did, otherwise you're on your way to get cucked

 

[Moggie]

i am where you were at when you were 22, what advice you got for me?

 

[zeek]

@syobevoli here

Extremely long text incoming. If u dont want to read, leave.

I hope some youngcels can learn something from my life story maybe. I am a 27yo guy right now that is basically a NEET about to go ER. But it wasn't always like this, but maybe it was always meant to be.


I was never the hardest working student, but my 128IQ carried me hard in school to the point where at the age of 17 (when you graduate high-school in the netherlands) I was among the top 1% scoring students of the country, which gave me access to every single university and program I wanted to get into.

At the age of 17 though I was:
-Abused by my parents.
-KHHV truecel
-Had a small social circle of gamer-nerds as only friends. No women.
-Depressed

I had free access to med school in the netherlands. But I deemed it too easy and a waste of time for someone like me. So I rejected it.
Note: Med school is the mostly highly sought after education in the netherlands, it's extremely hard to get in (everyone wants it), but once you are in it is easy and low-skill. Just memorization and reproduction.

Ended up thinking of doing a gap-year or something cuz I hated my life and didn't know what to do. My parents threatened to kick me out of the house if I didn't go to university right away or got a job to support myself instead.

These threats led to me enrolling myself into Physics. It was considered the hardest program that this country had to offer and I hoped it would motivate me to excell. I hoped I would finally find the validation and appreciation I never got in life if I did well in this program. I hoped it would make me enjoy my life again, also I was always really good in physics in high school.

My parents refused to support me financially to study in another city, so I was forced to commute to this new university in another city from home. This took 4 hours every day, I had to wake up 6:15AM in the morning and generally i would get home at 8PM.

I would get home at 8PM, eat, play games 2-3 hours, go to bed. Repeat. Life was brutal.
I was still a truecel. I made some acquintainces mainly some guys that were also very smart that worked together with me at university. But nothing that lasted beyond the lecture halls.

I didn't get motivated and was getting less motivated as time went on. The loneliness was getting to me and I was looking for 'ways out of life' with videogames.

I still passed my first 2 years of physics with decent grades (Top ~30% and considered talented, but nothing special). Third year I got into a legal argument with my university and I had to go to court over being allowed to make a certain exam. Ended up losing the court-battle which led to requiring an additional 3 months to get a certain exam done. It was brutal to me because I considered the university to be a place where students would be supported, instead of actively be fought in court-battles over being allowed to make a fucking exam.

This court-battle that I lost felt like a brutal stab in the back. I was eagerly looking for any type of validation or appreciation for what I was doing, but instead I was getting sabotaged over shitty rules that (later I discovered) where hardly enforced anyways. Only somehow in my case they strictly were. (Not being allowed to make a certain exam, made it impossible for me to pass a certain course, which made it inevitable to for me to get a delayed graduation)

This same year I started looksmaxxing. I was 20yo at this point and didn't know of the blackpill. I started going to the gym and tracking calories to lose weight. Ended up losing interest in university and skipping lectures. Failing more and more courses, but still passing some here and there.

I now had a completed 1st + 2nd year. But a failed 3rd year of university. It's a 3-year program by the way. So I am basically 2/3 on the way now.

The next year, I passed only a single course (1/12 of a year) which basically means I didn't progress at all. I hardly went to my university anymore as the commute was too brutal and I lost interest. Resulting in a complete year wasted. I was completely demotivated in life and in my studies.
I took all the bluepilled advice and went to my general practitioner who send me through to a therapist to treat my depression.

I got on SSRI's right away, started doing weekly therapy sessions talking about my issues. In the mean-time still going to the gym, socializing with my nerd-friends, playing videogames, but hardly working on my studies.

SSRI's didn't work at all (escitalopram (called lexapro in the US) didnt work at all) and therapy wasnt making any progress whatsoever in a year time. Ended up switching therapists 3 times but to no avail.

At this time I also first installed dating apps (age 22). Hardly got any matches. Went on 1 date with a girl that rejected me. Whatever. My dating profile looked like this:
View attachment 1982987

I considered online-dating a waste of time and deleted Tinder. Instead I started social-maxxing. Mainly by going clubbing more often, but also by joining (latin) dance courses in the city that I studied at. Hoping to connect and interact with more women that way.

This is how I looked like at this point (age 22)

This was brutally unsuccesfull. All the interactions I was getting from women in clubs were negative and that of brutal rejection. Women in clubs wanted low-inhib beasts, not a 22yo mediocre looking KHHV.

The girls at my dance club were more positive and I got some more positive interactions there. But nothing ever led anywhere.


At 22yo I considered it time to make more drastic changes. I conspired to leave my elderly abusive home and arranged for a student-dorm without their knowledge as I knew they wouldn't agree with it.

Once I had it all arranged, I notified my parents of my departure and they had the brutal response that I expected: They told me I was disowned as a child and I was to receive absolutely 0 help with anything ever if I go through with these plans. They also had my cousins and their family talk to me to tell me that it would be terrible thing to move out.

I ended up moving out anyways without their support, but once I started arranging things, suddenly my parents started helping me again to move my shit to here. Pretending like they were always ready for me (brutal narc abusive gaslighting retard parents pill).

Anyways I ended up having to ditch my old therapist from my old city. And applied to new mental health-care in my new city.

This is the time I found the blackpill (age 23).

Nothing really changed except for me playing less videogames and spending more times on blackpill forums/discord/reddits.

Mental-healthcare was shit and ended up not vibing at all with my therapist. I dropped it and focused on self-improvement against. Started reading a lot about stoicicism, meditation-techniques and mindfullness. Also joined group yoga-classes, group running classes.

Unfortunately all to no avail and I wasted another year with 0 classes passed. But leanmaxxing was going well:

Next study-year I considered myself 'looksmaxxed enough' to start social-maxxing hardcore.

I doubled down on my (latin) dance classes and started doing 2 classes at once. But more importantly: I joined a student fraternity in the new city that I now lived in.

This fraternity is one of the biggest of my city and considered the 'top of student-life' basically, if you know what I mean.

i was also at my leanest and best-looking at this period of time tbh.


Results:

At my dancing classes I got told I look like a player/fuckboy (despite still being KHHV). Girls didn't really like me and weren't friendly to me, except my most common dance-partner that was somewhat open to me. I could've had a chance with her in hindsight if I pushed it myself, but I didn't and neither did she. So nothing ended up happening.

More importantly, my fraternity: I partied hard here 2-3 days per week. With absolutely ZERO results. I was 22yo and a lot of the people there considered me 'oldcel' already. Since I was new there I was coupled/paired with fresh students (18yo) and I was constantly being told how weird it was for a 22yo like me to be around 18yo's. Ngl it was very brutal and ofcourse also had to do with how old I looke due to my poor collagen and hairline. The 18-20yo girls wanted nothing to do with me.


Luckily around this time I met my first ever girl I kissed, had sex with, first girlfriend. Through tinder, pure luck tbh, I was hardly getting matches but this girl pulled through.
View attachment 1983024

It was a long-distance relationship and she thought of me as this mogger guy that was high-status in a good fraternity and excelling in school. This wasn't reality, so when that came crashing down, the relationship ended.

During all this time I was still passing 0 exams, 0 courses.

I was extremely positive in my mindset at this point though. Losing my virginity to a girl like this, getting relationship experience. Now things can finally go well with women right?

Nope. I got a few one-night stands with girls, but nothing ever sticked.

I ended up wasting another full year in the same fraternity and trying to replicate the results I got with this girl I had my first relationship with.

0 success.

I ended up growing out my hair to try a different vibe/style.

Years went by with almost no real progress in life.

Didn't pass courses.
Started another mental-healthcare therapy that led nowhere
Dating didn't go anywhere
Didn't make any real new social circles

Covid happened.

Had a couple of different jobs.
Lost all of my money in failed investments.

Dated a german artsy girl for almost a year in 2021. Didn't go anywhere.

Boom it's 2022.

I still didn't pass a single course (1/12 of a year) since 2017 (!!!). 5 years and not a single exam passed.

And life is where I am now:

27yo.

-6 years behind my peers in my academic/career achievements.
-still inexperienced with romance/sex/relationships. About 9 years behind here.
-no family (ended up ditching them all together as I considered them toxic).
-few friends I had are gone.

0 money (and also 100k in student debt).
No degree. (But I could still finish this physics degree I havent passed a single course for in 6 years though jfl)




Thoughts?

finish your degree
also do they not have ketamine for depression in your country? do that
then move and make some new friends

 

[RecessedChinCel]

Ascending later in life is brutal. What’s the point of becoming Chad at 30 when you wasted your youth.

At least you mog now. You look like high T king of the jungle Tarzan.

 

[MoggerGaston]

I feel sorry for you.

I think you were fucked over hard by your circumstances, with your looks you should have easily have a normal upbringing (teen love, social life, clubbing) and have a job and LTR now.

If I had a different family in my youth, I would've had a good youth and probably never found this forum ngl. It's so fucked.

My guess is that you want to stay in the Netherlands. I thought about leaving too but honestly Europe is all I know, starting over new in a shithole country is doomed to fail. At least have a stable income before, and who knows maybe you find someone in your country.

I don't necessarily want to stay in the netherlands. I don't have family/friends here so hardly much to hold me here.

I could see myself moving to the USA for the increased income potential. Also really dislike the dating-scene in the netherlands, but also the social-scene. So I am thinking: Everywhere better than here.

Even East-europe could be considered.

You were Chadlite and had a Stacy gf, look at the bright side.

I mean obviously I have failed to replicate this result whatsoever.

But I do agree. This girl was extremely well-adjusted imo. A true stacy and her 7-ncount made her extremely capable and well-equiped of dealing with relationships. She knew exactly what she wanted and the moment I showed signs of not fitting with that image, she made an issue out of it, ditched me, and got with another guy.
I can't even blame her honestly. She went ALL-OUT with me from moment 1. Made it extremely clear aswell that she wanted to be in a long-term relationship with me. But also she wanted to fuck me on our first date, after making that clear. I have absolutely nothing on her how she handled that.

In comparison the german alt-girl that I dated for a year afterwards. It felt more like 2 amateurs messing around and not knowing what they were doing. Unfortunately I don't have many options, so I sticked around with her anyways because I didn't want to be single. Just a brutal result of being male, but a nice comparison to what I had with the stacy.




Idk maybe I am stacy-widowed at this point. Because I did miss true sexual attraction with this becky girl compared to that first girlfriend. I also didn't connect to her socially that well.

But it's hard for me now to vibe with girls anyways due to my closed-off, depressed, rotter lifestyle. When there's little life in me,
there's little life to share.

 

[fukmylyf]

maybe u should take a different program or go part time. But you have ur whole life to worry about career shit tbh. It sounds like you need a social circle and gf more than anything else. Hard to accomplish anything when ur brain is rotting from depression

i feel for u. I'm basically 10 years behind in a lot of ways. What can we do tho? Make the best of what you have now. Don't wanna look back with regret in another decade

 

[fukmylyf]

i am where you were at when you were 22, what advice you got for me?

Go ER

 

[Be_ConfidentBro]

MOGGER GASTON

 

[Be_ConfidentBro]

GASTONS ME

 

[Repentsinner]

How can you go er if you had a gf wtf

 

[MoggerGaston]

Fuck bro I feel for you.
The photo of you smiling in front of the lake; I relate to that so much. The momentary bursts of hope and content that arise amid depressive episodes, only to soon fade away and be given up on.
I can see the pain in your face in that photo.
Try to keep well man.

I know so well that during pictures from holidays like this, I would feel extremely depressed, but try to make the most out of the situation.

Mostly trying to fake happiness, in the hopes of reaching happiness eventually myself.

It's so fucked man.

During all of the pictures I know for a fact that I was extremely unhappy and depressed. Trying to make the best of the situation at hand.

I hope man, I fucking hope

to achieve happiness one day, instead of this fake shit from these photos man. I so much hope the exact same for you.

So many of us are in so much pain, trying to get through with life, smiling, pretending to be happy, while feeling like utter shit on the inside.

 

[MoggerGaston]

You can do both. Basically join one christian cult where your gf is not brainwashed by the feminist leftist system and work your ass off in order to make your revenge

christianity is completely dead in the netherlands. I am one of the only christians left that is not above the age of 40.

I would have to move to a country where christianity is still mainstream idk?

 

[FutureSlayer]

I know so well that during pictures from holidays like this, I would feel extremely depressed, but try to make the most out of the situation.

Mostly trying to fake happiness, in the hopes of reaching happiness eventually myself.

It's so fucked man.

During all of the pictures I know for a fact that I was extremely unhappy and depressed. Trying to make the best of the situation at hand.

I hope man, I fucking hope

to achieve happiness one day, instead of this fake shit from these photos man. I so much hope the exact same for you.

So many of us are in so much pain, trying to get through with life, smiling, pretending to be happy, while feeling like utter shit on the inside.

Feeling exactly like you rn, our depression comes from the feeling that whatever we are experiencing is labile and fickle. The gf, friends and whatever are not really loving us but exploiting us for their benefits or something like that.
I am coming to the realization that religion is what kept not only girls but humanity in general in line and prevented these situations, making real love and communities possible.

 

[FutureSlayer]

christianity is completely dead in the netherlands. I am one of the only christians left that is not above the age of 40.

I would have to move to a country where christianity is still mainstream idk?

Eastern europe

 

[MoggerGaston]

Joining a cult doesn't feel like dating-mogging, it's like using a cheat code, the pain from the past will not be erased. He either needs to let go the past or have success in the normal dating market (nice LTR or a few good slays).

Dating success doesn't heal my pain from the past on it's own in general though.

When I dated this stacy, and also when I dated the german-becky, during both relationships I felt insecure and inadequate. I felt more confident during the time I dated the stacy than the becky though. Example: I approved of going on a holiday with the stacy during summer (we didnt go cuz we broke up before). But with the becky I was hesitant of accepting a holiday with her at all.

But most important: I noticed that dating girls that showed clear attraction towards me, my incel pain was hardly getting healed.

If there's one thing I have learned from ascending, is that looks-ascension doesn't mean that you are ascending mentally at the same time.

While yes, you build higher standards, and are more confident when you are 'mogging' people. Your self-esteem is still extremely fragile and you are walking on egg-shells. When dealing with women I am still clueless and walking around like a dumbo. With men I don't know my place and what I want out of an interaction. And all these things (when ascending at a later age) make it hard to adjust mentally.

I feel that at oldcel (23+) age you are likely to just stick to your own social frame. Even if this social frame is build up from a time where you were a bullied subhuman and therefore not positive to your own life quality.

Changing your life-mindset is extremely difficult. I still feel like a 3PSL truecel subhuman, despite knowing that I am atleast decent-looking nowadays. My ego is extremely fragile.

 

[babineux]

@syobevoli here

Extremely long text incoming. If u dont want to read, leave.

I hope some youngcels can learn something from my life story maybe. I am a 27yo guy right now that is basically a NEET about to go ER. But it wasn't always like this, but maybe it was always meant to be.


I was never the hardest working student, but my 128IQ carried me hard in school to the point where at the age of 17 (when you graduate high-school in the netherlands) I was among the top 1% scoring students of the country, which gave me access to every single university and program I wanted to get into.

At the age of 17 though I was:
-Abused by my parents.
-KHHV truecel
-Had a small social circle of gamer-nerds as only friends. No women.
-Depressed

I had free access to med school in the netherlands. But I deemed it too easy and a waste of time for someone like me. So I rejected it.
Note: Med school is the mostly highly sought after education in the netherlands, it's extremely hard to get in (everyone wants it), but once you are in it is easy and low-skill. Just memorization and reproduction.

Ended up thinking of doing a gap-year or something cuz I hated my life and didn't know what to do. My parents threatened to kick me out of the house if I didn't go to university right away or got a job to support myself instead.

These threats led to me enrolling myself into Physics. It was considered the hardest program that this country had to offer and I hoped it would motivate me to excell. I hoped I would finally find the validation and appreciation I never got in life if I did well in this program. I hoped it would make me enjoy my life again, also I was always really good in physics in high school.

My parents refused to support me financially to study in another city, so I was forced to commute to this new university in another city from home. This took 4 hours every day, I had to wake up 6:15AM in the morning and generally i would get home at 8PM.

I would get home at 8PM, eat, play games 2-3 hours, go to bed. Repeat. Life was brutal.
I was still a truecel. I made some acquintainces mainly some guys that were also very smart that worked together with me at university. But nothing that lasted beyond the lecture halls.

I didn't get motivated and was getting less motivated as time went on. The loneliness was getting to me and I was looking for 'ways out of life' with videogames.

I still passed my first 2 years of physics with decent grades (Top ~30% and considered talented, but nothing special). Third year I got into a legal argument with my university and I had to go to court over being allowed to make a certain exam. Ended up losing the court-battle which led to requiring an additional 3 months to get a certain exam done. It was brutal to me because I considered the university to be a place where students would be supported, instead of actively be fought in court-battles over being allowed to make a fucking exam.

This court-battle that I lost felt like a brutal stab in the back. I was eagerly looking for any type of validation or appreciation for what I was doing, but instead I was getting sabotaged over shitty rules that (later I discovered) where hardly enforced anyways. Only somehow in my case they strictly were. (Not being allowed to make a certain exam, made it impossible for me to pass a certain course, which made it inevitable to for me to get a delayed graduation)

This same year I started looksmaxxing. I was 20yo at this point and didn't know of the blackpill. I started going to the gym and tracking calories to lose weight. Ended up losing interest in university and skipping lectures. Failing more and more courses, but still passing some here and there.

I now had a completed 1st + 2nd year. But a failed 3rd year of university. It's a 3-year program by the way. So I am basically 2/3 on the way now.

The next year, I passed only a single course (1/12 of a year) which basically means I didn't progress at all. I hardly went to my university anymore as the commute was too brutal and I lost interest. Resulting in a complete year wasted. I was completely demotivated in life and in my studies.
I took all the bluepilled advice and went to my general practitioner who send me through to a therapist to treat my depression.

I got on SSRI's right away, started doing weekly therapy sessions talking about my issues. In the mean-time still going to the gym, socializing with my nerd-friends, playing videogames, but hardly working on my studies.

SSRI's didn't work at all (escitalopram (called lexapro in the US) didnt work at all) and therapy wasnt making any progress whatsoever in a year time. Ended up switching therapists 3 times but to no avail.

At this time I also first installed dating apps (age 22). Hardly got any matches. Went on 1 date with a girl that rejected me. Whatever. My dating profile looked like this:
View attachment 1982987

I considered online-dating a waste of time and deleted Tinder. Instead I started social-maxxing. Mainly by going clubbing more often, but also by joining (latin) dance courses in the city that I studied at. Hoping to connect and interact with more women that way.

This is how I looked like at this point (age 22)

This was brutally unsuccesfull. All the interactions I was getting from women in clubs were negative and that of brutal rejection. Women in clubs wanted low-inhib beasts, not a 22yo mediocre looking KHHV.

The girls at my dance club were more positive and I got some more positive interactions there. But nothing ever led anywhere.


At 22yo I considered it time to make more drastic changes. I conspired to leave my elderly abusive home and arranged for a student-dorm without their knowledge as I knew they wouldn't agree with it.

Once I had it all arranged, I notified my parents of my departure and they had the brutal response that I expected: They told me I was disowned as a child and I was to receive absolutely 0 help with anything ever if I go through with these plans. They also had my cousins and their family talk to me to tell me that it would be terrible thing to move out.

I ended up moving out anyways without their support, but once I started arranging things, suddenly my parents started helping me again to move my shit to here. Pretending like they were always ready for me (brutal narc abusive gaslighting retard parents pill).

Anyways I ended up having to ditch my old therapist from my old city. And applied to new mental health-care in my new city.

This is the time I found the blackpill (age 23).

Nothing really changed except for me playing less videogames and spending more times on blackpill forums/discord/reddits.

Mental-healthcare was shit and ended up not vibing at all with my therapist. I dropped it and focused on self-improvement against. Started reading a lot about stoicicism, meditation-techniques and mindfullness. Also joined group yoga-classes, group running classes.

Unfortunately all to no avail and I wasted another year with 0 classes passed. But leanmaxxing was going well:

Next study-year I considered myself 'looksmaxxed enough' to start social-maxxing hardcore.

I doubled down on my (latin) dance classes and started doing 2 classes at once. But more importantly: I joined a student fraternity in the new city that I now lived in.

This fraternity is one of the biggest of my city and considered the 'top of student-life' basically, if you know what I mean.

i was also at my leanest and best-looking at this period of time tbh.


Results:

At my dancing classes I got told I look like a player/fuckboy (despite still being KHHV). Girls didn't really like me and weren't friendly to me, except my most common dance-partner that was somewhat open to me. I could've had a chance with her in hindsight if I pushed it myself, but I didn't and neither did she. So nothing ended up happening.

More importantly, my fraternity: I partied hard here 2-3 days per week. With absolutely ZERO results. I was 22yo and a lot of the people there considered me 'oldcel' already. Since I was new there I was coupled/paired with fresh students (18yo) and I was constantly being told how weird it was for a 22yo like me to be around 18yo's. Ngl it was very brutal and ofcourse also had to do with how old I looke due to my poor collagen and hairline. The 18-20yo girls wanted nothing to do with me.


Luckily around this time I met my first ever girl I kissed, had sex with, first girlfriend. Through tinder, pure luck tbh, I was hardly getting matches but this girl pulled through.
View attachment 1983024

It was a long-distance relationship and she thought of me as this mogger guy that was high-status in a good fraternity and excelling in school. This wasn't reality, so when that came crashing down, the relationship ended.

During all this time I was still passing 0 exams, 0 courses.

I was extremely positive in my mindset at this point though. Losing my virginity to a girl like this, getting relationship experience. Now things can finally go well with women right?

Nope. I got a few one-night stands with girls, but nothing ever sticked.

I ended up wasting another full year in the same fraternity and trying to replicate the results I got with this girl I had my first relationship with.

0 success.

I ended up growing out my hair to try a different vibe/style.

Years went by with almost no real progress in life.

Didn't pass courses.
Started another mental-healthcare therapy that led nowhere
Dating didn't go anywhere
Didn't make any real new social circles

Covid happened.

Had a couple of different jobs.
Lost all of my money in failed investments.

Dated a german artsy girl for almost a year in 2021. Didn't go anywhere.

Boom it's 2022.

I still didn't pass a single course (1/12 of a year) since 2017 (!!!). 5 years and not a single exam passed.

And life is where I am now:

27yo.

-6 years behind my peers in my academic/career achievements.
-still inexperienced with romance/sex/relationships. About 9 years behind here.
-no family (ended up ditching them all together as I considered them toxic).
-few friends I had are gone.

0 money (and also 100k in student debt).
No degree. (But I could still finish this physics degree I havent passed a single course for in 6 years though jfl)




Thoughts?

Bro what I would do is put my head down and get the degree first then evaluate

 

[JovenCansao]

Why the fuck is the name of all your pics so fucking huge???

 

[MoggerGaston]

i am where you were at when you were 22, what advice you got for me?

Very hard question that I struggle to answer because I don't know the answer.
My only regret is that I wasted time doing 'nothing': rotting, gymcelling, dating useless hoes, socializing with ppl I didn't vibe with. But many other people I know would find those activities 'worthwhile'.

So my advice would be to have a few clear life goals set. So that if socializing and dating doesn't work out the way you want to for example. You already know:

'hey 1,5 years from now, I am done studying here, and then I am moving to another city for xx or yy job, I will have a new chance then.''


This is actually the main regret I have. I hated studying in my current city, hated socializing/dating here. I should've moved to another place and tried out a different atmosphere already.

Keep things like that in ur plan. So that even if you hate your current life, you have clear changes ahead of you. So that never can you say 'it will always be like this'. Always have options open and clear goals towards those new options. (I am here for 2 years, then I can go somewhere else).

 

[ReadBooksEveryday]

Going to read every word; then will get back to you.

 

[MoggerGaston]

Why the fuck is the name of all your pics so fucking huge???

View attachment 1983087

im just copy-pasting links

time to start your own looksmax-folder and save photos from looksmax members

 

[thereallegend]

Would you ever sperm donor maxx? You're white and you're tall enough.

 

[AlexAP]

If there's one thing I have learned from ascending, is that looks-ascension doesn't mean that you are ascending mentally at the same time.

While yes, you build higher standards, and are more confident when you are 'mogging' people. Your self-esteem is still extremely fragile and you are walking on egg-shells. When dealing with women I am still clueless and walking around like a dumbo. With men I don't know my place and what I want out of an interaction. And all these things (when ascending at a later age) make it hard to adjust mentally.

I feel that at oldcel (23+) age you are likely to just stick to your own social frame. Even if this social frame is build up from a time where you were a bullied subhuman and therefore not positive to your own life quality.

Changing your life-mindset is extremely difficult. I still feel like a 3PSL truecel subhuman, despite knowing that I am atleast decent-looking nowadays. My ego is extremely fragile.

Yes, it's probably childhood emotional neglect, and it's extremely hard to fix, you have to either let go the past or accept to live without emotions. I don't know how to let go either, my family treated me very cold and I became introverted and had a bad youth, I still have low self-esteem, yet everyone moved on and there's no catharsis.

 

[Deleted member 23115]

 

[Moggie]

Very hard question that I struggle to answer because I don't know the answer.
My only regret is that I wasted time doing 'nothing': rotting, gymcelling, dating useless hoes, socializing with ppl I didn't vibe with. But many other people I know would find those activities 'worthwhile'.

So my advice would be to have a few clear life goals set. So that if socializing and dating doesn't work out the way you want to for example. You already know:

'hey 1,5 years from now, I am done studying here, and then I am moving to another city for xx or yy job, I will have a new chance then.''


This is actually the main regret I have. I hated studying in my current city, hated socializing/dating here. I should've moved to another place and tried out a different atmosphere already.

Keep things like that in ur plan. So that even if you hate your current life, you have clear changes ahead of you. So that never can you say 'it will always be like this'. Always have options open and clear goals towards those new options. (I am here for 2 years, then I can go somewhere else).

Thanks for the advice, also hate the city I’m in rn. I think I’ll plan on moving to Australia after studying, depends on how I feel about the Aussie scene when I’m there in feb.

 

[Deleted member 22063]

at least you kind of ascended, i thought school was free there?

i mean fuck if ur incel then it's over for me

 

[ReadBooksEveryday]

@FailedNormieManlet He's a lot like you tbh

 

[MoggerGaston]

finish your degree
also do they not have ketamine for depression in your country? do that
then move and make some new friends

I need to finish my degree asap. Not because I like the stuff I am studying or value the degree at this point.
But because it's a good way to get out of the place I am at. New social circle, new place, new environment.

Ketamine, I am self-administering.

I am going to start self-administered ketamine-therapy against my depression.

I feel much better overall since the rave, more positive. I am thinking it might've been the ketamine. Ketamine is being trialed with some success against depression profesionally. But since the professional therapy is way more expensive, might aswell start self-administering. I am thinking...

looksmax.org

So far it's been a great alternative to alcohol and makes me feel great for 1-2 days, but it's not translated into long-term life-gains. But compared to the ssri (escitalopram) that I tried, it's had a more positive effect.


Making new friends is an insane obstacle to me. Last friends I made were through video-games 10 years ago. Yeah, that brutal.

I make acquintainces easily, joke around easily, but it never translates into anything sustainable.

 

[MoggerGaston]

Ascending later in life is brutal. What’s the point of becoming Chad at 30 when you wasted your youth.

At least you mog now. You look like high T king of the jungle Tarzan.

Mentalmaxxing is the biggest struggle.

 

[MoggerGaston]

maybe u should take a different program or go part time. But you have ur whole life to worry about career shit tbh. It sounds like you need a social circle and gf more than anything else. Hard to accomplish anything when ur brain is rotting from depression

i feel for u. I'm basically 10 years behind in a lot of ways. What can we do tho? Make the best of what you have now. Don't wanna look back with regret in another decade

I agree with you.

If I had a good social-circle/gf, I would enjoy life more. And that life enjoyment would eventually translate into academic/carreer gains eventually.

But right now it's not possible for me to get a gf or social circle. Very brutal ngl. So idk, my brain is extremely rotted from depression.

I am starting new therapy sessions early next year, but I am not expecting much.

Being behind so far in life is fucked. And I think more socially/romantically than financially/career-wise.

I find women to be less receptive of inexperienced guys than companies are of inexperienced workers for example. So it's a reason to focus more on socializing than working. But rotting needs to be prevented.

 

[Deleted member 19174]

Damn bro. If a guy like you can't get women consistently then it's completely fucking over for me. Roping in June of 2024 tbh

 

[MoggerGaston]

How can you go er if you had a gf wtf

When you can't replicate those results and it feels like you got lucky one time, but never again.

 

[MoggerGaston]

Feeling exactly like you rn, our depression comes from the feeling that whatever we are experiencing is labile and fickle. The gf, friends and whatever are not really loving us but exploiting us for their benefits or something like that.
I am coming to the realization that religion is what kept not only girls but humanity in general in line and prevented these situations, making real love and communities possible.

Yes this is very much true.

When I dated this girl I never felt like we were a 'team', but that we were opponents trying to prove our worth to eachother.
And if you failed and didn't prove your worth, the consequence was being ditched and replaced.

This vibe with girls I have in general nowadays is the main reason why I consider going mgtow at this point.

 

[NuclearBrainReturns]

I'm really sorry for what you had to go through. It shouldn't have been this way for you.

I echo the sentiment others have, sending big hugs