Ideal Society

[billions]

Innovate and hand the world to superintelligence

lost the plot

 

[discord m0d]

Remove the state and all the laws

@Lemur @LXR @mohito we should all become anarchists

Norway has excellent incentives for women to have children. Yet birth rate is low. The desored number of children for Norwegian women is 2.4 but actual children are 1.4. Biggest reason is the "lack of viable partners". Also most of the reduction in birth rates is because of reduction in early pregnancies in almost every developed country. People choose to couple late and have children later. By that time the reproductive window is tight

your forgetting that rich people capitalise on norway's hypergamy

 

[LXR]

lost the plot

Mankind is inherently unequal. Superintelligence will solve this. The Universe tends towards the most efficient entropy generating entities. Superintelligence is the natural stage of progress in the Universal timescale

 

[mohito]

we should all become anarchists

Yeah fuck the state lol

 

[Lemur]

@Lemur thoughts

social democrasy always regresses due to their rejection of class dynamics

2007 sweden removed their wealth tax

and since then, more pro-bourgise laws have been put in place

we need a worker owned government

 

[LXR]

@Lemur @LXR @mohito we should all become anarchists


your forgetting that people capitalise on norway's hypergamy

Reproduction is unequal. Would you want to stake your future at the hands of women ?

 

[billions]

Accelerationism is the only answer. Whether you as man live in a patriarchial society or an egalitarian one, you will always be an expendable serf. No amount of muh equality will ever tip the scales of reproduction in men's favor. Your job is to die in the meat grinder. If thats what you like, its because you are brainwashed into doing so.

This is only true if you try and argue that there's no god, this is like basic Nietzsche and marxism im pretty sure (even though Marx was wrong about communism) when you live in a world without god you have no purpose other than to try your hardest to exercise your power over others, this is what's happening now with ai.

 

[discord m0d]

Reproducrion is unequal. Would you want to stake your future at the hands of women ?

if i were into them as much as i used to before getting blackpilled, probably yes.

your not realising that you see women the way you do because of how the capitalists shaped them
@Lemur @mohito

 

[billions]

Mankind is inherently unequal. Superintelligence will solve this. The Universe tends towards the most efficient entropy generating entities. Superintelligence is the natural stage of progress in the Universal timescale

this is just poo poo false intellectual thought as a consequence of denying god

 

[Lemur]

if i were into them as much as i used to before getting blackpilled, probably yes.

im not quite blackpilled- still a redpilled coper tbh

your not realising that you see women the way you do because of how the capitalists shaped them
@Lemur @mohito

100% agree

 

[LXR]

this is just poo poo false intellectual thought as a consequence of denying god

God is a lie created to convince men to die in the battlefield. Dues Vult seems cool today, but think of how many men lost their lives because they chose to listen to some Pope telling them to risk their lives for some Divine Right. Nah fuck that, I do not exist to serve as a slave of the powerful

 

[discord m0d]

bumo

 

[LXR]

if i were into them as much as i used to before getting blackpilled, probably yes.

your not realising that you see women the way you do because of how the capitalists shaped them
@Lemur @mohito

Its about reality, egg is rarer than sperm. Or did captalists inject men with billions of sperm ?

 

[billions]

God is a lie created to convince men to die in the battlefield. Dues Vult seems cool today, but think of how many men lost their lives because they chose to listen to some Pope telling them to risk their lives for some Divine Right. Nah fuck that, I do not exist to serve as a slave of the powerful

whatever way you try and develop a connection to god is your own right, you don't have to follow late stage christianity but to say that man doesn't have a natural yearning for god is a lie imo, from mans earliest form of communication there have been clear connections to forms of god.

 

[LXR]

This is only true if you try and argue that there's no god, this is like basic Nietzsche and marxism im pretty sure (even though Marx was wrong about communism) when you live in a world without god you have no purpose other than to try your hardest to exercise your power over others, this is what's happening now with ai.

The purpose of mankind is to leave this world with a progeny that is better than them. Mankind will go extinct either today or after a couple million years. It is our duty to leave the world with a better species than us. That is called creating meaning in the absence of God

 

[discord m0d]

Its about reality, egg is rarer than sperm. Or did captalists inject men with billions of sperm ?

thats not my point, if there's a family, men would want to work harder to provide for them.

under your system, what would stop dudes from being depressed and ending it?

 

[billions]

The purpose of mankind is to leave this world with a progeny that is better than them. Mankind will go extinct either today or after a couple million years. It is our duty to leave the world with a better species than us. That is called creating meaning in the absence of God

"The purpose of mankind is to leave this world with a progeny that is better than them" based on what? You have to give a purpose behind an idea.

 

[LXR]

whatever way you try and develop a connection to god is your own right, you don't have to follow late stage christianity but to say that man doesn't have a natural yearning for god is a lie imo, from mans earliest form of communication there have been clear connections to forms of god.

It is Anthropomorphic Exceptionalism to think there is someone above you that created you, that is responsible. It absolves man of the wonders and horrors of the true Divine that is his mind.

 

[LXR]

"The purpose of mankind is to leave this world with a progeny that is better than them" based on what? You have to give a purpose behind an idea.

Based on entropy production

 

[LXR]

thats not my point, if there's a family, men would want to work harder to provide for them.

under your system, what would stop dudes from being depressed and ending it?

Did you not read the post ? I explicitly said to decouple men's sex drive and family drive from their drive to work hard and innovate. Thats like the first point dude

 

[billions]

It is Anthropomorphic Exceptionalism to think there is someone above you that created you, that is responsible. It absolves man of the wonders and horrors of the true Divine that is his mind.

This idea would make sense if there wasn't strong consensus against it, do you not believe that the events of Jesus Christ actually happened? What is its answer to the conception of the universe? Do you not think that humans possess genetic traits which are many orders of magnitude greater than the closest mammal in similarity? Do you not agree that a species ability to grasp stimuli comes with a sense of superiority over others?

 

[LXR]

This idea would make sense if there wasn't strong consensus against it, do you not believe that the events of Jesus Christ actually happened? What is its answer to the conception of the universe? Do you not think that humans possess genetic traits which are many orders of magnitude greater than the closest mammal in similarity? Do you not agree that a species ability to grasp stimuli comes with a sense of superiority over others?

Jesus Christ existed but there is no concrete historical record as to the specific stories about him. Humans possess greater brainpower due to larger brains and greater endurance thanks to our ability to sweat. We possess the unique ability to fold our thumbs that helps us throw projectiles more accurately than any other ape. We are bipedal creatures. All this is an evolution from our Great Ape family. The problem of conciousness cannot be solved by invoking God when people cant even explain what qualia is. Most theologians didnt even know what qualia is when they were writing their texts. The Ontological argument for God doesnt make any sense. The theists have never asserted properly why it is necessary for the Umiverse must have a start. That represents a fundamental misunderstanding of Physics. Nor do they assert why if anything the buck stops with God. Why is God the start, why not something before Him ?

 

[discord m0d]

Did you not read the post ? I explicitly said to decouple men's sex drive and family drive from their drive to work hard and innovate. Thats like the first point dude

what would a mans purpose be if he cannot have a family to support?

even if you take his sex drive away, for something that goes against our biology to this extent, you would need to do a fuck ton of studies on its safety and efficacy which probably won't go in your favour due to it going against our nature this much.
@Lemur

 

[Lemur]

what would a mans purpose be if he cannot have a family to support?

i think its conditioned its inert desire is to raise a family- not that its biological

even if you take his sex drive away, for something that goes against our biology to this extent, you would need to do a fuck ton of studies on its safety and efficacy which probably won't go in your favour due to it going against our to this extent
@Lemur

 

[kisslessvirgin]

I preferred @Saint Casanova 's version of the thread

 

[LXR]

what would a mans purpose be if he cannot have a family to support?

even if you take his sex drive away, for something that goes against our biology to this extent, you would need to do a fuck ton of studies on its safety and efficacy which probably won't go in your favour due to it going against our to this extent
@Lemur

Thats why its written to be almost impossible. Maybe we can replace it with Nationalism, maybe we can replace it with something else. None of this easy, just like going to the Moon was not. Look how French Nationalism replaced the Catholic Church. The people are still the same. They just pledge allegiance to a different narrative. Previously it was the King granted rule by Divine Right. Now its the Nation State that is elected but in reality its the same upper class competing for elections

 

[LXR]

I preferred @Saint Casanova 's version of the thread

I didnt know it existed

 

[discord m0d]

Thats why its written to be almost impossible. Maybe we can replace it with Nationalism, maybe we can replace it with something else. None of this easy, just like going to the Moon was not. Look how French Nationalism replaced the Catholic Church. The people are still the same. They just pledge allegiance to a different narrative. Previously it was the King granted rule by Divine Right. Now its the Nation State that is elected but in reality its the same upper class competing for elections

mirin scifi maxxing

 

[discord m0d]

What would your realistic worldview be?

 

[LXR]

mirin scifi maxxing

I dont think this society would ever exist because I have written in the post, it is all verging on impossible and it needs to happen one after the other. But thats why it is ideal.

 

[LXR]

What would your realistic worldview be?

That AI is going to eat your job if you are not in healthcare, and its going to do it pretty soon

 

[discord m0d]

That AI is going to eat your job if you are not in healthcare, and its going to do it pretty soon

what about the trades
like being a electrican

 

[discord m0d]

That AI is going to eat your job if you are not in healthcare, and its going to do it pretty soon

there probably trying to replace us this much to reduce the world population

theres no way there doing it jsut for money, they already have way more then they will ever need

 

[LXR]

what about the trades
like being a electrican

It will get replaced later. The bottleneck is battery life and density. The fine motor control and software are progressing extremely quickly. The hardware scaling and costs thereof are the bigger issue

 

[billions]

Jesus Christ existed but there is no concrete historical record as to the specific stories about him. Humans possess greater brainpower due to larger brains and greater endurance thanks to our ability to sweat. We possess the unique ability to fold our thumbs that helps us throw projectiles more accurately than any other ape. We are bipedal creatures. All this is an evolution from our Great Ape family. The problem of conciousness cannot be solved by invoking God when people cant even explain what qualia is. Most theologians didnt even know what qualia is when they were writing their texts. The Ontological argument for God doesnt make any sense. The theists have never asserted properly why it is necessary for the Umiverse must have a start. That represents a fundamental misunderstanding of Physics. Nor do they assert why if anything the buck stops with God. Why is God the start, why not something before Him ?

What is concrete historical record other than written account? You are looking at something which is totally perfect in its intent and asking it to change for the purpose of your interpretation, god itself allows for an answer whereas your motivation is to try and imitate that perfection which is inherently flawed religious or not (the idea that people who are limited intellectually and in their resources can create something which is infinitely perfect). And the word qualia just seems to be another word for conscientiousness, within humans the consensus we are able to develop via communication is quite a good answer, and the argument for concrete evidence against something which impossible for a finite mind to understand just doesn't make sense at its core.

 

[LXR]

What is concrete historical record other than written account? You are looking at something which is totally perfect in its intent and asking it to change for the purpose of your interpretation, god itself allows for an answer whereas your motivation is to try and imitate that perfection which is inherently flawed religious or not (the idea that people who are limited intellectually and in their resources can create something which is infinitely perfect). And the word qualia just seems to be another word for conscientiousness, within humans the consensus we are able to develop via communication is quite a good answer, and the argument for concrete evidence against something which impossible for a finite mind to understand just doesn't make sense at its core.

Concrete historical record means coming from 2 or more written sources and can be confirmed archaeologically. As such there are no proofs for Jesus's stories nor is there for all the stories in the Old Testament. As for qualia, you are wrong. It is not conscientiousness, it is the subjective feeling of how reality is perceived. For some people the colour red is perceived sibjectively differently than others, for some others sound is perceived differently. The physical data cannot explain why it is so. This has not been explained properly by theories pertaining to consciousness so it has not been solved. God cannot be perfect and fail the Evidential Problem of Evil. Most of the theologians can only counter the Evidential Problem of Evil with theodicies which is not complete

 

[billions]

Concrete historical record means coming from 2 or more written sources and can be confirmed archaeologically. As such there are no proofs for Jesus's stories nor is there for all the stories in the Old Testament. As for qualia, you are wrong. It is not conscientiousness, it is the subjective feeling of how reality is perceived. For some people the colour red is perceived sibjectively differently than others, for some others sound is perceived differently. The physical data cannot explain why it is so. This has not been explained properly by theories pertaining to consciousness so it has not been solved. God cannot be perfect and fail the Evidential Problem of Evil. Most of the theologians can only counter the Evidential Problem of Evil with theodicies which is not complete

sorry I meant consciousness I typed the wrong word

 

[billions]

Concrete historical record means coming from 2 or more written sources and can be confirmed archaeologically. As such there are no proofs for Jesus's stories nor is there for all the stories in the Old Testament. As for qualia, you are wrong. It is not conscientiousness, it is the subjective feeling of how reality is perceived. For some people the colour red is perceived sibjectively differently than others, for some others sound is perceived differently. The physical data cannot explain why it is so. This has not been explained properly by theories pertaining to consciousness so it has not been solved. God cannot be perfect and fail the Evidential Problem of Evil. Most of the theologians can only counter the Evidential Problem of Evil with theodicies which is not complete

Can you clarify what you mean by 2 or more written sources? And again these arguments still pertain to trying to interpret intent of something perfect, his reasoning for "allowing" evil isn't possible for us to interpret

 

[billions]

for example if you choose to align with gnosticism buddhism islam etc none of it matters because you are piggybacking on the impurities of mans interpretation/writings of god that is my point, trying to combat infinity when you are less than a grain of sand in comparison just doesn't make sense.

 

[LXR]

Can you clarify what you mean by 2 or more written sources?

Take the example of the Trojan War. We know the ancient city of Troy existed. But did it witness the Trojan war exactly as it happened ? Again apart from Iliad we have no other evidence of this. On the contrary, we have multiple people writing about Alexander the Great and his conquests. We have sources in India, Bactria, from Parthians and in Persia. We have sources from multiple Greeks. This is the difference. While the Trojan War is only depicted in Iliad, we cannot say for certain that it happened exactly as it did. Same way we have evidence that the Canaanites existed. But did they have the exact same history as specifically detailed in the Old Testament. Aprt from the Old Testament there is no mention of these exact things happening. There are mutiple sources of the Chinese rebellions that happened so we take it to be true

And again these arguments still pertain to trying to interpret intent of something perfect, his reasoning for "allowing" evil isn't possible for us to interpret

Again a theodicy. When I ask why we cannot interpret God, it is because God is beyondd comprehension. When I ask why he is beyond comprehension, it is because he cannot be interpreted. When I ask why he cannot be interpreted, it is because he is beyond comprehension.

And so starts circular reasoning

 

[billions]

Take the example of the Trojan War. We know the ancient city of Troy existed. But did it witness the Trojan war exactly as it happened ? Again apart from Iliad we have no other evidence of this. On the contrary, we have multiple people writing about Alexander the Great and his conquests. We have sources in India, Bactria, from Parthians and in Persia. We have sources from multiple Greeks. This is the difference. While the Trojan War is only depicted in Iliad, we cannot say for certain that it happened exactly as it did. Same way we have evidence that the Canaanites existed. But did they have the exact same history as specifically detailed in the Old Testament. Aprt from the Old Testament there is no mention of these exact things happening. There are mutiple sources of the Chinese rebellions that happened so we take it to be true

Again a theodicy. When I ask why we cannot interpret God, it is because God is beyondd comprehension. When I ask why he is beyond comprehension, it is because he cannot be interpreted. When I ask why he cannot be interpreted, it is because he is beyond comprehension.

And so starts circular reasoning

thinking about this give me a minute, this is a good conversation for me given I've never delved this deep into philosophy

 

[billions]

thinking about this give me a minute, this is a good conversation for me given I've never delved this deep into philosophy

Take the example of the Trojan War. We know the ancient city of Troy existed. But did it witness the Trojan war exactly as it happened ? Again apart from Iliad we have no other evidence of this. On the contrary, we have multiple people writing about Alexander the Great and his conquests. We have sources in India, Bactria, from Parthians and in Persia. We have sources from multiple Greeks. This is the difference. While the Trojan War is only depicted in Iliad, we cannot say for certain that it happened exactly as it did. Same way we have evidence that the Canaanites existed. But did they have the exact same history as specifically detailed in the Old Testament. Aprt from the Old Testament there is no mention of these exact things happening. There are mutiple sources of the Chinese rebellions that happened so we take it to be true

Again a theodicy. When I ask why we cannot interpret God, it is because God is beyondd comprehension. When I ask why he is beyond comprehension, it is because he cannot be interpreted. When I ask why he cannot be interpreted, it is because he is beyond comprehension.

And so starts circular reasoning

Okay im not well versed enough in history to compare Jesus to the trojan war, but there were non christian sources who accounted for Jesus' existence and crucifixion (if that is what you were pertaining to with archeological evidence), as for the miracles I don't know how you would account for them historically other than how I previously stated. And in regards to the circular reasoning there's no way to give a hard answer I don't meet the criteria to do so, but I don't understand how this poses an issue in a world under god. Im also curious as to your thoughts on the point I made in regards to the ability to imitate a perfect intelligence in a world which is finite in resource and built by intellectually limited people.

 

[LXR]

Okay im not well versed enough in history to compare Jesus to the trojan war, but there were non christian sources who accounted for Jesus' existence and crucifixion (if that is what you were pertaining to with archeological evidence), as for the miracles I don't know how you would account for them historically other than how I previously stated. And in regards to the circular reasoning there's no way to give a hard answer I don't meet the criteria to do so, but I don't understand how this poses an issue in a world under god. Im also curious as to your thoughts on the point I made in regards to the ability to imitate a perfect intelligence in a world which is finite in resource and built by intellectually limited people.

Superintelligence is not perfecr intelligence. It is just intelligence that is vastly superior to humans at every cognitive task. Now imagine chess. Theoritically, if you assign infinite resources, chess can be a solved game. But it cannot be physically possible. So we make machines that are vastly better than Magnus Carlsen but not perfect. It would be impossible to create the perfect chess engine since the number of possible chess games are more than the atoms in the universe. Now extend this same thing to every cognitive domain, machines thinking better than humans. We would need enormous resources but aling the way, the suoerintelligence would quickly iterate itself and find increased efficiency.

Here is where it gets tricky. In an ideal religious state like you assume, mankind would simply die off because the reproductive scale has been tipped. Men are pious and dont lust after women. So they do their own thing and eventually the population reduces. But that is in the ideal religious world that doesnt exist. In the ideal superintelligence world, it is possible that the machine chooses to self destruct because it knows something we dont. Moreso, machines are not programmed with the evolutionary instincts of humans so we cant predict them.

In reality, these advancements will be used to marginalise the bottom of the society

 

[billions]

Superintelligence is not perfecr intelligence. It is just intelligence that is vastly superior to humans at every cognitive task. Now imagine chess. Theoritically, if you assign infinite resources, chess can be a solved game. But it cannot be physically possible. So we make machines that are vastly better than Magnus Carlsen but not perfect. It would be impossible to create the perfect chess engine since the number of possible chess games are more than the atoms in the universe. Now extend this same thing to every cognitive domain, machines thinking better than humans. We would need enormous resources but aling the way, the suoerintelligence would quickly iterate itself and find increased efficiency.

So we agree on the perfection premise, and although im not 100% in my presumption the level of resources necessary to facilitate something which could compute at that level of complexity will fizzle out long before it will be able to optimize itself.

Here is where it gets tricky. In an ideal religious state like you assume, mankind would simply die off because the reproductive scale has been tipped. Men are pious and dont lust after women.

you have to speak more about this I don't understand

 

[LXR]

So we agree on the perfection premise, and although im not 100% in my presumption the level of resources necessary to facilitate something which could compute at that level of complexity will fizzle out long before it will be able to optimize itself.

you have to speak more about this I don't understand

Imagine if all men become priestlike and stick to faith as number 1 priority as compared to having sex. The number of kids would drop since no one would have harems and men woupd have religious obligations rather than free time. So the population wouldnt rise. This is in a perfectly religious society

 

[billions]

Imagine if all men become priestlike and stick to faith as number 1 priority as compared to having sex. The number of kids would drop since no one would have harems and men woupd have religious obligations rather than free time. So the population wouldnt rise. This is in a perfectly religious society

this is largely dependent on so many different things

 

[LXR]

this is largely dependent on so many different things

True but the net effect would be towards less.

 

[1966Ford]

Almost all of society we're Patrilineal

 

[prettyboylite]

It is a fact of life that patriarchial societies outfuck, outcompete and outinnovate egalitarian societies. There is a reason why many of the free loving hippie hunter gatherer societies are not present today and virtually all societies until WW2 were patriarchial.


With the emancipation of women, we have returned to our roots. Women having mate choice means they choose the best of the best or remain single. This has inevitably led to a rapid drop off in birth rates. Demographics are a bedrock of a great country. More people means more chances of producing geniuses, more men willing to do dirty jobs, bigger tax base, bigger army etc. Right now it seems that Hasidi Jews and Amish are on track to displace Western Society if things remain same.

Here I propose a society that would be better than the patriarchial one without marginalising men. To do that we would need some pre requisites

1. Decouple the male drive to work hard and innovate from the sex drive. An almost impossible thing to do

2. Perfect the technology of artificial wombs

3. Study the optimal child rearing techniques to raise mentally stable and healthy citizens


With these in place, we can create a populace of asexual men that have not the lost the drive to innovate and work hard. The means of reproduction and child rearing would lay solely in the hands of the State. Further improvements can be had by genetic engineering technology which would help optimise the traits of the children and in turn the populace. Racial purity could also be maintained in such a system. The benefit of this system is that the State is not hostage to the whims of women, nay, women would be wholly unrequired and would be dumped into neighbouring lands.

Next steps for improvement

1. Transhumanism and social engineering
2. Perfecting automation to ultimately hadn over the world to a superintelligence

@Lemur @discord m0d rate my schizophrenia

Eugenics

 

[Centurion Hunter]

It is a fact of life that patriarchial societies outfuck, outcompete and outinnovate egalitarian societies. There is a reason why many of the free loving hippie hunter gatherer societies are not present today and virtually all societies until WW2 were patriarchial.


With the emancipation of women, we have returned to our roots. Women having mate choice means they choose the best of the best or remain single. This has inevitably led to a rapid drop off in birth rates. Demographics are a bedrock of a great country. More people means more chances of producing geniuses, more men willing to do dirty jobs, bigger tax base, bigger army etc. Right now it seems that Hasidi Jews and Amish are on track to displace Western Society if things remain same.

Here I propose a society that would be better than the patriarchial one without marginalising men. To do that we would need some pre requisites

1. Decouple the male drive to work hard and innovate from the sex drive. An almost impossible thing to do

2. Perfect the technology of artificial wombs

3. Study the optimal child rearing techniques to raise mentally stable and healthy citizens


With these in place, we can create a populace of asexual men that have not the lost the drive to innovate and work hard. The means of reproduction and child rearing would lay solely in the hands of the State. Further improvements can be had by genetic engineering technology which would help optimise the traits of the children and in turn the populace. Racial purity could also be maintained in such a system. The benefit of this system is that the State is not hostage to the whims of women, nay, women would be wholly unrequired and would be dumped into neighbouring lands.

Next steps for improvement

1. Transhumanism and social engineering
2. Perfecting automation to ultimately hadn over the world to a superintelligence

@Lemur @discord m0d rate my schizophrenia

wed need to replace women with AI bots
if every man had an AI woman the need for hate amongst eachother would be lesser so we could advance far faster than any society before