Is 20° CW bimax rotation possible?

[Lonenely sigma]

I have a short squared brachy face with a low gonial angle.


Is there an operational limit to bimax with rotation or is it just the aesthetic limitation? Like, is there an amount of rotation past which the surgeron literally can't go?


I ask since I saw a 20° CCW once

 

[Lonenely sigma]

@RealSurgerymax have you dealt with cases of ppl with very low gonial angles?

 

[Lonenely sigma]

1st bump

 

[longjohnmong]

nm i see you said cw

no. 20 degrees is ridiculous.

 

[ItsOver999]

Well however many degrees to 0 degree occlusal plane is in a way the "max" that u would want

 

[Lonenely sigma]

nm i see you said cw

no. 20 degrees is ridiculous.

why not? Whats standing in the way?

 

[Lonenely sigma]

Well however many degrees to 0 degree occlusal plane is in a way the "max" that u would want

Can u explain that a bit more? I am talking about CW not CCW

 

[longjohnmong]

why not? Whats standing in the way?

your occlusal plane.

normal value 8 degrees +/- 4 degrees

like let's say yours is 0, which is abnormally flat. 20 degrees rotation would put you at -20, which is ridiculously steep. like mine was like -12 or -13 and I was giga downgrown birdcel.

i think the reason you might see 20 degrees CCW, although i'm kind of skeptical, and not 20 degrees CW is that you just don't find occlusal planes that deviate from the norm as much in that direction. your shit would hae to be upsidedown

and that's just one issue. rather than banana jaw, you'd have boomerang jaw

 

[Lonenely sigma]

your occlusal plane.



like let's say yours is 0, which is abnormally flat. 20 degrees rotation would put you at -20, which is ridiculously steep. like mine was like -12 or -13 and I was giga downgrown birdcel.

i think the reason you might see 20 degrees CCW, although i'm kind of skeptical, and not 20 degrees CW is that you just don't find occlusal planes that deviate from the norm as much in that direction. your shit would hae to be upsidedown

and that's just one issue. rather than banana jaw, you'd have boomerang jaw

You must be measuring the gonial angle in a way I don't understand. I suppose you measured it from the front?


I measured mine from the side, and adding ~20° would not turn it around lmao. It would be a very big change but still, it would be beneficial.


My angle is around 105°-110° depending on how I measure it. Again, this is from the side.


Were you measuring it from the side too?

 

[Lonenely sigma]

your occlusal plane.



like let's say yours is 0, which is abnormally flat. 20 degrees rotation would put you at -20, which is ridiculously steep. like mine was like -12 or -13 and I was giga downgrown birdcel.

i think the reason you might see 20 degrees CCW, although i'm kind of skeptical, and not 20 degrees CW is that you just don't find occlusal planes that deviate from the norm as much in that direction. your shit would hae to be upsidedown

and that's just one issue. rather than banana jaw, you'd have boomerang jaw

I don't get how you went into negative digits

 

[longjohnmong]

I don't get how you went into negative digits

I'm talking about occlusal angle. Any rotation of the jaws will rotate the occlusal angle.

 

[Lonenely sigma]

I'm talking about occlusal angle. Any rotation of the jaws will rotate the occlusal angle.

My occlusal is almost 95°

 

[longjohnmong]

My occlusal is almost 95°

I assume that's -5 degrees according to the standard way of expressing it, so if you had 20 degrees CW, you'd end up with -25 degrees, which is absurd.

 

[Lonenely sigma]

I assume that's -5 degrees according to the standard way of expressing it, so if you had 20 degrees CW, you'd end up with -25 degrees, which is absurd.

Shouldn't it be -5 + 20 = 15?

 

[greycel]

Shouldn't it be -5 + 20 = 15?

CW increases the occlusal angle. So think of a right angle (letter L). That would be an occlusal plane with the horizontal part of the L being 0 degrees (i.e. facing directly out).
A 5 degrees will be the letter L with instead of 90 degrees, it being 95 degrees.
A 20 degree CW will make the angle even larger. So the 5 degrees from 90 degrees, L, (95 degrees), becomes a 25 degrees from 90 degrees, L, (115 degrees).
A CCW angle will make it shorter.

 

[Lonenely sigma]

CW increases the occlusal angle. So think of a right angle (letter L). That would be an occlusal plane with the horizontal part of the L being 0 degrees (i.e. facing directly out).
A 5 degrees will be the letter L with instead of 90 degrees, it being 95 degrees.
A 20 degree CW will make the angle even larger. So the 5 degrees from 90 degrees, L, (95 degrees), becomes a 25 degrees from 90 degrees, L, (115 degrees).
A CCW angle will make it shorter.

Makes sense. So, since my occlusal is too low, and I need CW, how many degrees is the operational maximum?

 

[greycel]

High occlusal plane shows:

• when it is >12 deg
• follows with increased mandibular plane
• anterior vertical maxillary excess (down grown)
• more lower face height (downgrownnn)
• shorter ramus
• malloclusion
• open bite
• sleep apnea

Low occlusal plane shows:

• when it is <4 deg
• increased projection of pogonion
• anterior overbite
• lower curve of Spee
• malloclusion
• decrease of inclination in incisors

To combat a high plane you would need to go for a CCW rotation, hence for low plane a CW rotation. With the surgical increase/decrease of the occlusal plane, the deformities and above characteristics are changed and fixed.

What I think is that these changes should precede the obsession we currently have with forward growth.

Credit: https://looksmax.org/threads/sacrifice-forward-growth.837689/post-12875445
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Not sure about the operational maximum but make sure it is less than 7 degrees rotation if your current is 5 degrees. Check with your maxfac

 

[Lonenely sigma]

High occlusal plane shows:

• when it is >12 deg
• follows with increased mandibular plane
• anterior vertical maxillary excess (down grown)
• more lower face height (downgrownnn)
• shorter ramus
• malloclusion
• open bite
• sleep apnea

Low occlusal plane shows:

• when it is <4 deg
• increased projection of pogonion
• anterior overbite
• lower curve of Spee
• malloclusion
• decrease of inclination in incisors

To combat a high plane you would need to go for a CCW rotation, hence for low plane a CW rotation. With the surgical increase/decrease of the occlusal plane, the deformities and above characteristics are changed and fixed.

What I think is that these changes should precede the obsession we currently have with forward growth.

Credit: https://looksmax.org/threads/sacrifice-forward-growth.837689/post-12875445
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Not sure about the operational maximum but make sure it is less than 7 degrees rotation if your current is 5 degrees. Check with your maxfac

High iq response, thanks a lot. Makes sense.

If you agree, could I dm you perhaps? I am kinda lost on my situation but I do believe it has a decent potential, but would need someone else to be a judge.

 

[geenk worg]

I don't know how you look like but you probably don't need that amount of rotation. It's absurd

 

[Lonenely sigma]

I don't know how you look like but you probably don't need that amount of rotation. It's absurd

Brachy