Is bimax even worth if for aesthetics?

[Acne Victim]

I've noticed that a lot of people in the rating section get recommended bimax purely for cosmetic reasons.

I genuinely don't see how it is worth it for average guys to go under jaw surgery when their recession is minimal and their bite is decent (AKA most people on .org). Most surgeons, even the ones famous on PSL, perform bimax only on patients with severe cases.

DJS is invasive, you need braces for a long period, big odds of getting botched or suboptimal results, and so on. So why not just stick to camouflage procedures if you are not deformed?

Spoiler: Tagging people that I know got bimax or are knowledgeable on the topic:

@Gaia262 @Pakicel @RealSurgerymax @Acromegaly_Chad @whiteissuperior @julianchicago @VladimirtheGreat @bignosesmallchin @skinnytwink @materialistic

 

[materialistic]

Bite means nothing, having recessed maxilla almost always means you have more flaws than simply a bad side profile, like nasolabial folds, scleral show, etc, which camouflage procedures can't always solve. Risk is proportional to benefits like everything else in life.

 

[Acne Victim]

Bite means nothing, having recessed maxilla almost always means you have more flaws than simply a bad side profile, like nasolabial folds, scleral show, etc, which camouflage procedures can't always solve. Risk is proportional to benefits like everything else in life.

Yes, that's right, but do you think it is even worth the risk and work for average MTN guys to get bimax?

 

[bignosesmallchin]

I have a bad bite and my jaw is like completely recessed as well as crooked/asymmetric, bimax will be a life saver for me.

 

[longjohnmong]

Yes, that's right, but do you think it is even worth the risk and work for average MTN guys to get bimax?

this is just a worthless question. which average MTN?

 

[Deleted member 16683]

it's not worth it unless you are recessed by a good amount (like myself). it can have some positive impact on people with very minor recession but at the end of the day recession doesn't always have an impact on frontal (take robert pattinson's maxilla, he still chad). i know PLENTY of recessed people that are still on the attractive side, and plenty of forward grown people that are unattractive (frontally).

Bite means nothing, having recessed maxilla almost always means you have more flaws than simply a bad side profile, like nasolabial folds, scleral show, etc, which camouflage procedures can't always solve. Risk is proportional to benefits like everything else in life.

do you not realize these things have little to no correlation with orthodontic side profile? angelina jolie has nasolobial folds even in her prime and she has perfect side. amanda seyfreid has scleral show yet well developed maxilla. people with chad jaw development but shit eyes are easily found and it has nothing to do with their jaws

it's so easy to find celebrities that debunk that theory

 

[materialistic]

it's not worth it unless you are recessed by a good amount (like myself). it can have some positive impact on people with very minor recession but at the end of the day recession doesn't always have an impact on frontal (take robert pattinson's maxilla, he still chad). i know PLENTY of recessed people that are still on the attractive side, and plenty of forward grown people that are unattractive (frontally).

do you not realize these things have little to no correlation with orthodontic side profile? angelina jolie has nasolobial folds even in her prime and she has perfect side. amanda seyfreid has scleral show yet well developed maxilla. people with chad jaw development but shit eyes are easily found and it has nothing to do with their jaws

it's so easy to find celebrities that debunk that theory

Cases like that exist, but it's also not rare to find people who have those secondary minor flaws accentuated due to the lack of bone support (saggy cheeks is almost omnipresent in severely recessed people). I have it my self and know plenty of other people who also does. I agree upon your first statement, though, I wouldn't do bimax if I deviated from normal forward growth by only a bit.

 

[materialistic]

it's not worth it unless you are recessed by a good amount (like myself). it can have some positive impact on people with very minor recession but at the end of the day recession doesn't always have an impact on frontal (take robert pattinson's maxilla, he still chad). i know PLENTY of recessed people that are still on the attractive side, and plenty of forward grown people that are unattractive (frontally).

do you not realize these things have little to no correlation with orthodontic side profile? angelina jolie has nasolobial folds even in her prime and she has perfect side. amanda seyfreid has scleral show yet well developed maxilla. people with chad jaw development but shit eyes are easily found and it has nothing to do with their jaws

it's so easy to find celebrities that debunk that theory

I think I ended not answering OP's question after all.

 

[Deleted member 16683]

Cases like that exist, but it's also not rare to find people who have those secondary minor flaws accentuated due to the lack of bone support (saggy cheeks is almost omnipresent in severely recessed people). I have it my self and know plenty of other people who also does. I agree upon your first statement, though, I wouldn't do bimax if I deviated from normal forward growth by only a bit.

i mean it depends. if you are recessed of course you are going to have more drooping tissue around the lower third. but i have seen recessed people with god tier eye areas, the other day i saw a girl with megan fox tier eyes but she was recessed with an open bite, most features don't really correlate to one another. whether or not you think that the bones are what shape the entirety of the facial features it still doesn't always correlate

 

[Acne Victim]

it's not worth it unless you are recessed by a good amount (like myself). it can have some positive impact on people with very minor recession but at the end of the day recession doesn't always have an impact on frontal (take robert pattinson's maxilla, he still chad). i know PLENTY of recessed people that are still on the attractive side, and plenty of forward grown people that are unattractive (frontally).

do you not realize these things have little to no correlation with orthodontic side profile? angelina jolie has nasolobial folds even in her prime and she has perfect side. amanda seyfreid has scleral show yet well developed maxilla. people with chad jaw development but shit eyes are easily found and it has nothing to do with their jaws

it's so easy to find celebrities that debunk that theory

Good and insightful reply.

 

[VladimirtheGreat]

I've noticed that a lot of people in the rating section get recommended bimax purely for cosmetic reasons.

I genuinely don't see how it is worth it for average guys to go under jaw surgery when their recession is minimal and their bite is decent (AKA most people on .org). Most surgeons, even the ones famous on PSL, perform bimax only on patients with severe cases.

DJS is invasive, you need braces for a long period, big odds of getting botched or suboptimal results, and so on. So why not just stick to camouflage procedures if you are not deformed?

Spoiler: Tagging people that I know got bimax or are knowledgeable on the topic:

@Gaia262 @Pakicel @RealSurgerymax @Acromegaly_Chad @whiteissuperior @julianchicago @VladimirtheGreat @bignosesmallchin @skinnytwink @materialistic

There are people who have sleep apnea or even cant hold their lips closed naturally but have to think about it all time...if you really want to accend to levels of jordan barret,chico and other chad than you need more than average foward growth,which is why bimax in most case is needed( if your upper third is recessed,than you can end up dog maxxed if you push lower third too much..thats why you need skilled blackpilled surgeon with eye for aesthetics)

 

[Acne Victim]

There are people who have sleep apnea or even cant hold their lips closed naturally but have to think about it all time...if you really want to accend to levels of jordan barret,chico and other chad than you need more than average foward growth,which is why bimax in most case is needed( if your upper third is recessed,than you can end up dog maxxed if you push lower third too much..thats why you need skilled blackpilled surgeon with eye for aesthetics)

In my opinion it is almost impossible to ascend to chad levels, if one gets bimax and improves his face from MTN to HTN it is already way more than enough IMO.

What is the best way to avoid getting botched with bimax considering that all surgeons have some cases that go wrong? Minimal movements?

 

[VladimirtheGreat]

In my opinion it is almost impossible to ascend to chad levels, if one gets bimax and improves his face from MTN to HTN it is already way more than enough IMO.

What is the best way to avoid getting botched with bimax considering that all surgeons have some cases that go wrong? Minimal movements?

There are two surgeons i trust the most on this world...alfaro and ramieri...they had most surgeries,experience and knowledge...for bimax to succeed it has to be planned with surgeon who knows 3d planning programing,who has experience in ccw if needed or downgrafting maxilla for short faces...but in most cases to get good result it depends from your upper third..if its bellow awerage foward growth than you are fucked...because most chads has great upper third foward growth

 

[RealSurgerymax]

I've noticed that a lot of people in the rating section get recommended bimax purely for cosmetic reasons.

I genuinely don't see how it is worth it for average guys to go under jaw surgery when their recession is minimal and their bite is decent (AKA most people on .org). Most surgeons, even the ones famous on PSL, perform bimax only on patients with severe cases.

DJS is invasive, you need braces for a long period, big odds of getting botched or suboptimal results, and so on. So why not just stick to camouflage procedures if you are not deformed?

Spoiler: Tagging people that I know got bimax or are knowledgeable on the topic:

@Gaia262 @Pakicel @RealSurgerymax @Acromegaly_Chad @whiteissuperior @julianchicago @VladimirtheGreat @bignosesmallchin @skinnytwink @materialistic

Yes it’s worth it a lot of the time

 

[Magnum Opus]

I've noticed that a lot of people in the rating section get recommended bimax purely for cosmetic reasons.

I genuinely don't see how it is worth it for average guys to go under jaw surgery when their recession is minimal and their bite is decent (AKA most people on .org). Most surgeons, even the ones famous on PSL, perform bimax only on patients with severe cases.

DJS is invasive, you need braces for a long period, big odds of getting botched or suboptimal results, and so on. So why not just stick to camouflage procedures if you are not deformed?

Spoiler: Tagging people that I know got bimax or are knowledgeable on the topic:

@Gaia262 @Pakicel @RealSurgerymax @Acromegaly_Chad @whiteissuperior @julianchicago @VladimirtheGreat @bignosesmallchin @skinnytwink @materialistic

Some people just can‘t ascend with it because they‘re not recessed to begin with but rather handicapped because of other features like eyes, nose and ears. The average MTN (slightly recessed) should NOT get it. To be honest there are HTNs that are recessed who have a good shot at being chad(lite) after fixing their recession.

 

[agoostis]

Bite means nothing, having recessed maxilla almost always means you have more flaws than simply a bad side profile, like nasolabial folds, scleral show, etc, which camouflage procedures can't always solve. Risk is proportional to benefits like everything else in life.

never seen a bimax that fix both scleral show and naso fold

 

[SubhumanityForce]

it's not worth it unless you are recessed by a good amount (like myself). it can have some positive impact on people with very minor recession but at the end of the day recession doesn't always have an impact on frontal (take robert pattinson's maxilla, he still chad). i know PLENTY of recessed people that are still on the attractive side, and plenty of forward grown people that are unattractive (frontally).

do you not realize these things have little to no correlation with orthodontic side profile? angelina jolie has nasolobial folds even in her prime and she has perfect side. amanda seyfreid has scleral show yet well developed maxilla. people with chad jaw development but shit eyes are easily found and it has nothing to do with their jaws

it's so easy to find celebrities that debunk that theory

it does. your eye can see depth differences even from the front.
you can understand deep set eyes, fron non so deep set, and you can get a recessed chin even from the front, (although it is extremely visible in the side profile.
the biggest issue will be your lips after bimax. how will the soft tissue of your mouth reponds.

 

[FutureSlayer]

it does. your eye can see depth differences even from the front.
you can understand deep set eyes, fron non so deep set, and you can get a recessed chin even from the front, (although it is extremely visible in the side profile.
the biggest issue will be your lips after bimax. how will the soft tissue of your mouth reponds.

Regarding the lips i’m legit scared. I need them to be wider and even otherwise i will look worse

 

[SubhumanityForce]

Regarding the lips i’m legit scared. I need them to be wider and even otherwise i will look worse

roughly, for wider lips you will need the bsso movement to be larger than the maxilla movement. (could be wrong)
there was a paper from raffaini himself about that, google it. i will find it tomorrow anyway and make a thread about it.
i have a small jaw, but volumewise, my lips are very full, and i dont want to lose this volume.
When i do what everyone does here (put my hands and push left and rise sides of my face out laterally, everything looks model tier.
and i tried pulling JUST A LITTLE BIT. i have concluded that this painfully small difference makes or brakes me.
i tried to measure it and im literally talkin about just 3mm of extra width per mouth corner is all it takes.
(of course when im pulling, nasolabial folds go away, the fat that i have streches , which is a good indication that when i leanmaxx, it will be somewhat promising) but honestly, i dont know if its better to forget about bimax and go for a conservative commisuroplasty ( eppley says he doesnt want to do more than 7mm per side to avoid scarring and uncanny look, but hell, i dont even need 5mm per side)
its so easier to go for implants for the outer frame (wraparound and zygos) and to nail it, 1 or 2 mms wont be visible)
but fuck around with 2mms when it comes to mouth and eyes, and its over.

 

[FutureSlayer]

roughly, for wider lips you will need the bsso movement to be larger than the maxilla movement. (could be wrong)
there was a paper from raffaini himself about that, google it. i will find it tomorrow anyway and make a thread about it.
i have a small jaw, but volumewise, my lips are very full, and i dont want to lose this volume.
When i do what everyone does here (put my hands and push left and rise sides of my face out laterally, everything looks model tier.
and i tried pulling JUST A LITTLE BIT. i have concluded that this painfully small difference makes or brakes me.
i tried to measure it and im literally talkin about just 3mm of extra width per mouth corner is all it takes.
(of course when im pulling, nasolabial folds go away, the fat that i have streches , which is a good indication that when i leanmaxx, it will be somewhat promising) but honestly, i dont know if its better to forget about bimax and go for a conservative commisuroplasty ( eppley says he doesnt want to do more than 7mm per side to avoid scarring and uncanny look, but hell, i dont even need 5mm per side)
its so easier to go for implants for the outer frame (wraparound and zygos) and to nail it, 1 or 2 mms wont be visible)
but fuck around with 2mms when it comes to mouth and eyes, and its over.

i’m lucky cause Raffaini himself is going to operate on me so i can straight ask him lmao

 

[SubhumanityForce]

i’m lucky cause Raffaini himself is going to operate on me so i can straight ask him lmao

Raffaini is semi black-pilled i think. That's good
There is one case on his instagram where he mentioned that he was able to reposition the fcking muscles of the mouth for lip position, something like that,
tbh i didnt really like it but it could just be that the mouth was very swollen.
at least i know he was doing a lot of research especially on the impact of surgery on the mouth, lip position, how lip volume changes after surgery, lip width, etc.
so he might be your guy, yes

have you had a consultation with him yet?

 

[FutureSlayer]

Raffaini is semi black-pilled i think. That's good
There is one case on his instagram where he mentioned that he was able to reposition the fcking muscles of the mouth for lip position, something like that,
tbh i didnt really like it but it could just be that the mouth was very swollen.
at least i know he was doing a lot of research especially on the impact of surgery on the mouth, lip position, how lip volume changes after surgery, lip width, etc.
so he might be your guy, yes

have you had a consultation with him yet?

Yes, i’m having the orthodontics installed next week, it will take up to 1 year

 

[SubhumanityForce]

Yes, i’m having the orthodontics installed next week, it will take up to 1 year

would you mind sharing your plan? i mean, how was the overall experience? ( im considering a consultation)
did he give you any 3d plan, or did he give you any scans to see on your own etc?

 

[FutureSlayer]

would you mind sharing your plan? i mean, how was the overall experience? ( im considering a consultation)
did he give you any 3d plan, or did he give you any scans to see on your own etc?

My hardmaxxing plan

20 y/o Trimax with maxillary downgraft and advancement and mandible advancement CW rotation, chin projection reduction genioplasty along with rhinoplasty. Getting pre-op braces next week. Laser beard removal, intensive skin care and slight hair lightening, hoping to obtain prime jb appeal...

looksmax.org

Still not simulation or 3d untill i’ll be done with ortho.
The first consultation is extremely brief and superficial, he just told me what i have written on the post and referred me to the ortho

 

[Deleted member 16683]

roughly, for wider lips you will need the bsso movement to be larger than the maxilla movement. (could be wrong)
there was a paper from raffaini himself about that, google it. i will find it tomorrow anyway and make a thread about it.
i have a small jaw, but volumewise, my lips are very full, and i dont want to lose this volume.
When i do what everyone does here (put my hands and push left and rise sides of my face out laterally, everything looks model tier.
and i tried pulling JUST A LITTLE BIT. i have concluded that this painfully small difference makes or brakes me.
i tried to measure it and im literally talkin about just 3mm of extra width per mouth corner is all it takes.
(of course when im pulling, nasolabial folds go away, the fat that i have streches , which is a good indication that when i leanmaxx, it will be somewhat promising) but honestly, i dont know if its better to forget about bimax and go for a conservative commisuroplasty ( eppley says he doesnt want to do more than 7mm per side to avoid scarring and uncanny look, but hell, i dont even need 5mm per side)
its so easier to go for implants for the outer frame (wraparound and zygos) and to nail it, 1 or 2 mms wont be visible)
but fuck around with 2mms when it comes to mouth and eyes, and its over.

my mandible is a ton more recessed than my maxilla so hopefully that's true. i will ask pagnoni about this during our next zoom and consult with raffaini too

i have done the same thing as you, when i stretch the sides of my face i look good in the mirror and in certain photos but in normal window lighting it makes me look weird as shit idk why.

you said your lips are full, but according to my back and forth emails with eppley he said that commissuroplasty does not yield good seamless results for patients with big lips. so i'm wondering what he has told you, and what about the price?

 

[SubhumanityForce]

my mandible is a ton more recessed than my maxilla so hopefully that's true. i will ask pagnoni about this during our next zoom and consult with raffaini too

i have done the same thing as you, when i stretch the sides of my face i look good in the mirror and in certain photos but in normal window lighting it makes me look weird as shit idk why.

you said your lips are full, but according to my back and forth emails with eppley he said that commissuroplasty does not yield good seamless results for patients with big lips. so i'm wondering what he has told you, and what about the price?

i haven't talked to him, i just saw some of his responses online.
to be honest, when it comes to fullness, they are around 1:1 ratio (yeah, i know, its better to have a thicker lower than upper, but it doesnt look bad, o Pry ;s lips look the same in photos and i found some of his photos that the upper looks larger than the lower)
of course O pry has top tier lips not only because of their volume, but the borders are so defined, his cupids bow is good, and the skin of the lips looks tight, while mine looks like its a bit fluffy with some air jfl..
You can understand this from the side as well. (will make a thread on lips now)
also, because i have seen my scan, O pry sure has a better ANTERIOR NASAL SPINE, which from the side, makes him have this model tier curve from subnasale to upper lip, while mine is more like chimp ( i tried the morph and i swear, all i needed was 3mm longer ANS lol)
You are right about the commisuroplasty on thick lips, it would probably look better on thinner caucasian lips, that's why i have to do that much research on the outcome of lips after bimax. i have seen some results that have lost their lips (over), i have seen other results that they got a bit fuller, and i have also seen the lifefuel cases, where their lips kept their fullness and got wider, like they stretched towards the perfect direction.

this is a combination of the movements of both jaws, and if there was any ROTATION.
Also, another factor is jaw width, Some people with good lower jaw advancement, might have gained width. There was also a case of someone who only got a massive wraparound, and in the after he had legit wider lips ( but i dont know if he got commisuroplasty as well, some people here said it was just from the implant, which seems weird)

 

[Deleted member 16683]

i haven't talked to him, i just saw some of his responses online.
to be honest, when it comes to fullness, they are around 1:1 ratio (yeah, i know, its better to have a thicker lower than upper, but it doesnt look bad, o Pry ;s lips look the same in photos and i found some of his photos that the upper looks larger than the lower)
of course O pry has top tier lips not only because of their volume, but the borders are so defined, his cupids bow is good, and the skin of the lips looks tight, while mine looks like its a bit fluffy with some air jfl..
You can understand this from the side as well. (will make a thread on lips now)
also, because i have seen my scan, O pry sure has a better ANTERIOR NASAL SPINE, which from the side, makes him have this model tier curve from subnasale to upper lip, while mine is more like chimp ( i tried the morph and i swear, all i needed was 3mm longer ANS lol)
You are right about the commisuroplasty on thick lips, it would probably look better on thinner caucasian lips, that's why i have to do that much research on the outcome of lips after bimax. i have seen some results that have lost their lips (over), i have seen other results that they got a bit fuller, and i have also seen the lifefuel cases, where their lips kept their fullness and got wider, like they stretched towards the perfect direction.

this is a combination of the movements of both jaws, and if there was any ROTATION.
Also, another factor is jaw width, Some people with good lower jaw advancement, might have gained width. There was also a case of someone who only got a massive wraparound, and in the after he had legit wider lips ( but i dont know if he got commisuroplasty as well, some people here said it was just from the implant, which seems weird)

i'm gonna ask during my consults if they have any idea how to make the lips wider in bimax. but tbh i was gonna have my consult with eppley but i feel like i should cancel it bc i have to get bimax before i pursue anything else

idk what anterior nasal spine means but here is my nose and lips from the side, tell me. i plan on getting ccwr but this is what they look like now

 

[SubhumanityForce]

i'm gonna ask during my consults if they have any idea how to make the lips wider in bimax. but tbh i was gonna have my consult with eppley but i feel like i should cancel it bc i have to get bimax before i pursue anything else

idk what anterior nasal spine means but here is my nose and lips from the side, tell me. i plan on getting ccwr but this is what they look like now View attachment 2088018

Yeah, essentially you would prefer your lips to follow the yellow line form the side right?
also, your anterior nasal spine is this green bony part of your maxilla which i circled with another colour, and it affects the area right below your nose (green circle)

 

[Deleted member 16683]

Yeah, essentially you would prefer your lips to follow the yellow line form the side right?

i guess so but that would just mean wider lips i think?

also, your anterior nasal spine is this green bony part of your maxilla which i circled with another colour, and it affects the area right below your nose (green circle)

how do you alter it, and what would be beneficial for me to change

 

[SubhumanityForce]

i guess so but that would just mean wider lips i think?

how do you alter it, and what would be beneficial for me to change

there is a chance that bimax with make the good curve you are lacking, if your ANS is good. (if you see raffainis videos on insta sometimes he cuts the ANS to be moved with the maxilla, sometimes it cuts just below it to leave it behind.
Another thing (which im not sure if its your case) for people who have their teeth flaring and pushed in the outer border of their gums, they would benefit by decompensating first (moving their teeth back a bit in the gums and THEN move the maxilla forwards.



So, anterior Nasal spine is this shit here:

people with small of that compared to teeth flaring out, look like this

people who have a long ANS and/or retroclined teeth (tilted inwards like this: / when looking from side profile) look like this

Now look at these examples compared to him:

It should also be noted that something which is not really fixable for recessed people is that the development of your nasal bridge will also dictate how far you can lengthen your jaw and maxilla if you dont want to look like a german shepherd.

look how far in front of his eyes his nasal bridge is.
Then everything else follows along (lower nose, mouth, chin etc)
for people who dont have this, pushing too far will end up with a ski-sloped nose, which is only passable in females.
In fact, o pry has this forward grown nose and yet he still has a small dorsal hump
Nose the big circle, the curve with between nose and upper lip, and also the mouth corners.

 

[Deleted member 16683]

there is a chance that bimax with make the good curve you are lacking, if your ANS is good. (if you see raffainis videos on insta sometimes he cuts the ANS to be moved with the maxilla, sometimes it cuts just below it to leave it behind.
Another thing (which im not sure if its your case) for people who have their teeth flaring and pushed in the outer border of their gums, they would benefit by decompensating first (moving their teeth back a bit in the gums and THEN move the maxilla forwards.



So, anterior Nasal spine is this shit here:

people with small of that compared to teeth flaring out, look like this

View attachment 2088033
people who have a long ANS and/or retroclined teeth (tilted inwards like this: / when looking from side profile) look like this


View attachment 2088034



Now look at these examples compared to him:

View attachment 2088035
It should also be noted that something which is not really fixable for recessed people is that the development of your nasal bridge will also dictate how far you can lengthen your jaw and maxilla if you dont want to look like a german shepherd.

look how far in front of his eyes his nasal bridge is.
Then everything else follows along (lower nose, mouth, chin etc)
for people who dont have this, pushing too far will end up with a ski-sloped nose, which is only passable in females.
In fact, o pry has this forward grown nose and yet he still has a small dorsal hump
Nose the big circle, the curve with between nose and upper lip, and also the mouth corners.

i have no clue how that works

my teeth protrude outward significantly but my lips are not that protrusive from the side.

also my nasal bridge is decently in front of my eyes i guess? i have a bit of a hump but i think that's because of my recession so it would most likely be straight afterwards

other than the ans, what else is there to take into consideration for the best aesthetic outcome (other than maxilla and mandible movement, ccw)