Is jutting legit for CCW rotation or not?

[antiantifa]

@Copemaxxing keep messaging me with his profile, he has most CCW rotated profile I've ever seen. He also has some form of bruxism(probably jutting).

Is jutting now legit for CCW rotation or not?

@betamanlet

Wake the fuck up, faggot and answer this question, you kept posting years ago about jutting and shit, what is ur personal results with this shit?

 

[antiantifa]

Where are results, Eddie?

@betamanlet

 

[antiantifa]

@betamanlet wake up now

 

[antiantifa]

 

[Soalian]

With jutting you're simply moving your jaw forward, not rotating it counterclockwise?

 

[antiantifa]

With jutting you're simply moving your jaw forward, not rotating it counterclockwise?

The muscle that pulls your mandible forward also pulls your upper maxilla backward.

This is betamanlet's pic. Imagine there is a pull on the top of maxilla backward.

 

[Deleted member 9355]

hold on is all this about a surgery or not

 

[spark]

 

[Soalian]

The muscle that pulls your mandible forward also pulls your upper maxilla backward.

This is betamanlet's pic. Imagine there is a pull on the top of maxilla backward.

Yes I see, thanks.

If it's legit why not jutmaxx all the time, costs nothing, only problem is it may be be hard to talk without looking like an autist, and of course not overdoing it.

 

[antiantifa]

Yes I see, thanks.

If it's legit why not jutmaxx all the time, costs nothing, only problem is it may be be hard to talk without looking like an autist, and of course not overdoing it.

Idk, that's why I made this thread. @betamanlet is jutting now for months at least, he has to report something. He reported 3mm less overjet or some shit like that.

 

[Soalian]

Is it a morph?

 

[antiantifa]

Is it a morph?

No, those are two "different" Chinese XD.
Probably genetic clones tbh made my the CCP.

 

[Soalian]

Idk, that's why I made this thread. @betamanlet is jutting now for months at least, he has to report something. He reported 3mm less overjet or some shit like that.

I think I've been doing it kind of unconsciously for some time now tbh.

 

[Soalian]

No, those are two "different" Chinese XD.
Probably genetic clones tbh made my the CCP.

Lol ok I thought there were two separate pictures at first glance.

 

[antiantifa]

I think I've been doing it kind of unconsciously for some time now tbh.

I've noticed even during sleep I have some form of bruxism which prevent my face from going downward. Maybe it's normal? Maybe jutting more forward instead of upward very important for jaw development.

What are your results?

 

[Soalian]

I've noticed even during sleep I have some form of bruxism which prevent my face from going downward. Maybe it's normal? Maybe jutting more forward instead of upward very important for jaw development.

What are your results?

I don't really keep track of small facial changes on a daily basis, it's highly subjective tbh.

But I've got Bimax/CCW slated for next April, but surgeon explained to me he will only perform five degree CCW on top of Bimax.

I asked him about possibly bumping it up to ten degrees, but he said it won't be possible because of the risk of too much impaction along the way.

So the CCW rotation will be very minor I guess.

 

[antiantifa]

I don't really keep track of small facial changes on a daily basis, it's highly subjective tbh.

But I've got Bimax/CCW slated for next April, but surgeon explained to me he will only perform five degree CCW on top of Bimax.

I asked him about possibly bumping it up to ten degrees, but he said it won't be possible because of the risk of too much impaction along the way.

So the CCW rotation will be very minor I guess.

5 degrees still is a lot, more than enough for me to get a fully a straight nose.

 

[betamanlet]

Thanks for reminding me of this. I can't remember exactly why I stopped doing this, there might have been unfavorable changes in occlusion or TMJ functioning. In any case, I moved on to other experiments soon after posting that. As I said in some of those older posts, this hypothesis has less to do with CCW rotation and more with remodeling of the maxillary alveolus.

 

[Mongrelcel]

so brutal

they robbed him of having a future

 

[antiantifa]

Thanks for reminding me of this. I can't remember exactly why I stopped doing this, there might have been unfavorable changes in occlusion or TMJ functioning. In any case, I moved on to other experiments soon after posting that. As I said in some of those older posts, this hypothesis has less to do with CCW rotation and more with remodeling of the maxillary alveolus.

I had TMJ from it as well, but it went away when I stopped, what if you just have to jut occasionally to make sure your TMJ has time to follow the changes?

Also I haven't met a single forward grown CCW maxilla rotated person who doesn't jut subconsciously, I usually ask to look at their teeth and there's obvious dental wear everywhere.

My ex's mother mogged me to death with her jaw, she used to have heavy bruxism at night where she'd just jut forward.

How long did you jut for? Did you make objective measurements? How can your memory be so bad btw you only said you were doing it just a few months ago.

@Copemaxxing has bruxism and has gigachad jaw.

 

[Deleted member 6873]

With jutting you're simply moving your jaw forward, not rotating it counterclockwise?

Fellow peter steele pilled chad

 

[antiantifa]

@retard

Faggot 2.0, u kept ur teeth clenched for years, what happened?

 

[betamanlet]

I had TMJ from it as well, but it went away when I stopped, what if you just have to jut occasionally to make sure your TMJ has time to follow the changes?

It's possible. I could give it another go. Lately my main focus has been on strong lip suction due to its ability to guide the tongue and the neck into their proper places without me having to think about them at all. Since the jut doesn't seem to contradict the lip suction in any form, it'd be easy to incorporate it into the technique.

My ex's mother mogged me to death with her jaw, she used to have heavy bruxism at night where she'd just jut forward.

So they wouldn't simply clench the molars together, but instead specifically jut incisors against the incisors?

How long did you jut for? Did you make objective measurements?

Somewhere around 2-4 weeks. I went by mirror and by how much of the upper incisors I could palpate with the tongue from behind my lower incisors.

How can your memory be so bad btw you only said you were doing it just a few months ago.

Still living in 2020 eh? It's almost 1½ years according to the timestamp.

 

[antiantifa]

It's possible. I could give it another go. Lately my main focus has been on strong lip suction due to its ability to guide the tongue and the neck into their proper places without me having to think about them at all. Since the jut doesn't seem to contradict the lip suction in any form, it'd be easy to incorporate it into the technique.


So they wouldn't simply clench the molars together, but instead specifically jut incisors against the incisors?


Still living in 2020 eh? It's almost 1½ years according to the timestamp.

Damn I forget that it's 2021.

Yes, she'd just just mostly with her front teeth. I know this because she said she had dental attrition, when she showed me her front teeth were basically very straightly stacked on top of each-other. Her palate was nicely aligned to her frankfurt plane and even at 50 years old she looked really well.

"It's possible. I could give it another go. Lately my main focus has been on strong lip suction due to its ability to guide the tongue and the neck into their proper places without me having to think about them at all. Since the jut doesn't seem to contradict the lip suction in any form, it'd be easy to incorporate it into the technique."


My only fear is it will cause the face to shorten at the posterior region, did such a thing happen to you?

 

[antiantifa]

It's possible. I could give it another go. Lately my main focus has been on strong lip suction due to its ability to guide the tongue and the neck into their proper places without me having to think about them at all. Since the jut doesn't seem to contradict the lip suction in any form, it'd be easy to incorporate it into the technique.


So they wouldn't simply clench the molars together, but instead specifically jut incisors against the incisors?


Somewhere around 2-4 weeks. I went by mirror and by how much of the upper incisors I could palpate with the tongue from behind my lower incisors.


Still living in 2020 eh? It's almost 1½ years according to the timestamp.

Also look at this:

Soma in Action – Wholistic Dentistry

Case Studies – Wholistic Dentistry

 

[betamanlet]

My only fear is it will cause the face to shorten at the posterior region, did such a thing happen to you?

What exactly do you mean by posterior region, and why would it shorten? If you're pointing to the height of the lower third, the only way I can see that happening would be by clenching with the molars or pushing the posterior palate upwards with the tongue.

Here is an interesting superimposition of cephalometric tracings between two individuals with good and bad growth respectively. The maxillary difference mostly exists on a sagittal plane, which does give some credence to the jutting hypothesis.

 

[Copemaxxing]

I had TMJ from it as well, but it went away when I stopped, what if you just have to jut occasionally to make sure your TMJ has time to follow the changes?

Also I haven't met a single forward grown CCW maxilla rotated person who doesn't jut subconsciously, I usually ask to look at their teeth and there's obvious dental wear everywhere.

My ex's mother mogged me to death with her jaw, she used to have heavy bruxism at night where she'd just jut forward.

How long did you jut for? Did you make objective measurements? How can your memory be so bad btw you only said you were doing it just a few months ago.

@Copemaxxing has bruxism and has gigachad jaw.

I am jutting 24/7 Cause it looks weird if I dont

 

[antiantifa]

@betamanlet

In the gif it mostly looks like the movement is the same as that produced from pterygoids and masseter, not temporalis.

Also maybe it only seems like it, but the incisors in the good profile are deeper-set than in the bad profile(more jammed up).

 

[antiantifa]

I am jutting 24/7 Cause it looks weird if I dont

Man you have to explain what you do at night with your teeth. You have some form of bruxism that gave you too much CCW rotation and gave you a giga-chad jaw at the expense of no visible teeth in your smile.

You have a ridiculously short distance between your incisor and your nose as well.

 

[antiantifa]

What exactly do you mean by posterior region, and why would it shorten? If you're pointing to the height of the lower third, the only way I can see that happening would be by clenching with the molars or pushing the posterior palate upwards with the tongue.

Here is an interesting superimposition of cephalometric tracings between two individuals with good and bad growth respectively. The maxillary difference mostly exists on a sagittal plane, which does give some credence to the jutting hypothesis.

View attachment 978319

Of course, the clenching of the molars causing shortening of posterior face is what I am afraid of.

 

[betamanlet]

In the gif it mostly looks like the movement is the same as that produced from pterygoids and masseter, not temporalis.

Yeah, those muscles are responsible for bringing the mandible forward/up

 

[betamanlet]

Of course, the clenching of the molars causing shortening of posterior face is what I am afraid of.

Well do your molars even touch when you are jutting? In my case there is a small gap.

 

[Copemaxxing]

Man you have to explain what you do at night with your teeth. You have some form of bruxism that gave you too much CCW rotation and gave you a giga-chad jaw at the expense of no visible teeth in your smile.

You have a ridiculously short distance between your incisor and your nose as well.

I have diagnosed short face syndrome (very severe)

 

[antiantifa]

Well do your molars even touch when you are jutting? In my case there is a small gap.

I used to jut sometime ago. Sometimes my front teeth would move so much upward it would be impossible to bite without touching molars. This would obviously come from the teeth getting pushed into their gums.

But I jutted way too hard. I think soft jutting will allow the bone to move more-so than hard-jutting. I have this feeling that the nervous system can "tense" bone in response to too much pressure, which reduces bone re-modelling rate. On the other hand, sometimes I can feel certain parts of my facial bone "relaxing" and becoming more responsive, almost like the bone becomes less dry/more liquid.

This I mostly felt from mewing, which gave me a huge boost in forward growth and slightly improved my maxilla angle. Right now I only need CCW rotation, nothing else. Ideally front face shortening.

But again, I am afraid the shortening will cause sagging skin. I used to chew a lot, my posterior height was decreased because of chewing on molars, this caused my profile to worsen a lot. My whole face also rotated CW(nose became more hooked) with temporalis molar chewing.

 

[antiantifa]

I have diagnosed short face syndrome (very severe)

Yes, but what's the cause? Your front teeth are very straight with dental wear, so I supposed you had bruxism.

 

[Copemaxxing]

Yes, but what's the cause? Your front teeth are very straight with dental wear, so I supposed you had bruxism.

i dont know, my mom has short face syndrome too diagnosed, maybe its genes?

 

[betamanlet]

I used to jut sometime ago. Sometimes my front teeth would move so much upward it would be impossible to bite without touching molars. This would obviously come from the teeth getting pushed into their gums.

But I jutted way too hard. I think soft jutting will allow the bone to move more-so than hard-jutting. I have this feeling that the nervous system can "tense" bone in response to too much pressure, which reduces bone re-modelling rate. On the other hand, sometimes I can feel certain parts of my facial bone "relaxing" and becoming more responsive, almost like the bone becomes less dry/more liquid.

This I mostly felt from mewing, which gave me a huge boost in forward growth and slightly improved my maxilla angle. Right now I only need CCW rotation, nothing else. Ideally front face shortening.

But again, I am afraid the shortening will cause sagging skin. I used to chew a lot, my posterior height was decreased because of chewing on molars, this caused my profile to worsen a lot. My whole face also rotated CW(nose became more hooked) with temporalis molar chewing.

Yeah the bone definitely responds better to softer consistent forces. I recall reading that it takes just a couple of grams of pressure to move teeth over time, and that even just 50 grams per teeth can be too much force. You probably need to be in the parasympathetic mode too before any serious remodeling is going to take place.

If you think of how the TMJ is a central hinge around which the mandible is rotating, then it makes sense to assume that once the mandible is guided into the proper rotation by jutting, it will take the maxillary teeth along for the ride in a way which will eventually result in a balanced occlusion where the load is evenly distributed across all teeth. So at a point where you no longer can connect incisors without molar contact, perhaps the next logical step is to go for molar contact. Then soon the molars would be pushed up and forward too, and incisor contact could resume, and so on.

 

[antiantifa]

Yeah, those muscles are responsible for bringing the mandible forward/up

"One of the reasons the skeletal open bite is so difficult to treat in the practice of orthodontics is that its formative mechanism has not been elucidated. In view of past clinical reports, it may well be anticipated that the function of the masseter muscle plays some role in the formation of the skeletal open bite. The longitudinal effects on craniofacial growth in growing rhesus mon- keys by denervation of the masseter muscle were ob- served cephalographically. In the neurectomized ani- mals, the anterior facial height, the mandibular plane angle, and the gonial angle increased, together with a shortening of the ramus height. These results showed morphologic characteristic patterns of the skeletal open bite. It is therefore suggested that the inactivation of the masseter muscle produces a backward-rotating man- dibular growth pattern and that its function contributes to the formation of the gonial region."

 

[Babushkacatlady]

My only fear is it will cause the face to shorten at the posterior region, did such a thing happen to you?

Don't clench at the molars, try focusing your bite on the area of the canine to first molar, with light contact.

The muscle that pulls your mandible forward also pulls your upper maxilla backward.

The jutting muscle is the lateral pterygoid, it attaches to the sphenoid, not the upper maxilla.

there might have been unfavorable changes in occlusion or TMJ functioning

You probably got TMJ cause you were jutting only some of the time but others, like when eating, you had your previous occlusion. This dual position stresses the TMJs since they were trying to adapt to that position but kept coming back to the other.

 

[antiantifa]

Don't clench at the molars, try focusing your bite on the area of the canine to first molar, with light contact.


The jutting muscle is the lateral pterygoid, it attaches to the sphenoid, not the upper maxilla.


You probably got TMJ cause you were jutting only some of the time but others, like when eating, you had your previous occlusion. This dual position stresses the TMJs since they were trying to adapt to that position but kept coming back to the other.

"You probably got TMJ cause you were jutting only some of the time but others, like when eating, you had your previous occlusion. This dual position stresses the TMJs since they were trying to adapt to that position but kept coming back to the other."

Interesting theory.

And yeah, the pterygoid attach to sphenoid, which is attached to the maxilla.

What is your personal experience in this matter?

 

[Mouthbreath]

so brutal

they robbed him of having a future

I got the same treatment: retractive orthodontics + extractions

and I have a terribly recessed mandible, brutal

 

[Babushkacatlady]

What is your personal experience in this matter?

Jutting as long as possible for as much as possible fixed my big overjet a few years ago and solved my class 2 and gave me a class 1 bite and skeletal appearance. It did give me TMJ when I was inconsistent but it got better with time. I wish I had good before after pics.

 

[antiantifa]

Jutting as long as possible for as much as possible fixed my big overjet a few years ago and solved my class 2 and gave me a class 1 bite and skeletal appearance. It did give me TMJ when I was inconsistent but it got better with time. I wish I had good before after pics.

Interesting. How did your overall facial appearance change?

What happened to your nose, more humped or less?
What happened to your mandible, more forward or less?
What happened to your ears, CCW or CW rotated?
What happened to your cheeks, thinner or fatter?
Indicator line?
Upper/Lower Inter-molar/Inter-canine distance?
Ramus length?
Also maybe pictures with your eyes removed?
What about tongue posture, what did you do with it? Did you keep it up or as low as possible?

I notice during sleep that my face just wants to bring my molars upwards for some reason, it's annoying because it leads to CW rotation, I notice tension in temporalis during sleep. It's not tension from my consciously.

 

[betamanlet]

"One of the reasons the skeletal open bite is so difficult to treat in the practice of orthodontics is that its formative mechanism has not been elucidated. In view of past clinical reports, it may well be anticipated that the function of the masseter muscle plays some role in the formation of the skeletal open bite. The longitudinal effects on craniofacial growth in growing rhesus mon- keys by denervation of the masseter muscle were ob- served cephalographically. In the neurectomized ani- mals, the anterior facial height, the mandibular plane angle, and the gonial angle increased, together with a shortening of the ramus height. These results showed morphologic characteristic patterns of the skeletal open bite. It is therefore suggested that the inactivation of the masseter muscle produces a backward-rotating man- dibular growth pattern and that its function contributes to the formation of the gonial region."

From what I am aware open bite is the result of tongue thrust, or even resting the tongue in between the front teeth. I'd imagine that denervating the masseters could fuck with tongue posture too, possibly causing it to fall from the roof down towards the front teeth.

You probably got TMJ cause you were jutting only some of the time but others, like when eating, you had your previous occlusion. This dual position stresses the TMJs since they were trying to adapt to that position but kept coming back to the other.

Makes sense.

 

[antiantifa]

From what I am aware open bite is the result of tongue thrust, or even resting the tongue in between the front teeth. I'd imagine that denervating the masseters could fuck with tongue posture too, possibly causing it to fall from the roof down towards the front teeth.


Makes sense.

How so? The nerves of the tongue are different compared to the nerves of the masseter. And the masseter isn't required to keep the mouth shut.

 

[antiantifa]

Jutting as long as possible for as much as possible fixed my big overjet a few years ago and solved my class 2 and gave me a class 1 bite and skeletal appearance. It did give me TMJ when I was inconsistent but it got better with time. I wish I had good before after pics.

Also who's alt are you?

 

[betamanlet]

How so? The nerves of the tongue are different compared to the nerves of the masseter. And the masseter isn't required to keep the mouth shut.

Now that I think of it, there was something in that article series from Portland's TMJ clinic that relates to the study:

The Portland TMJ Clinic - Chapter 4

Portland Oregon temporomandibular joint Specialist, Dr. Summer specializes in treatment of temporomandibular disorder and Pain Management of the jaw joint

portlandtmjclinic.com

 

[Babushkacatlady]

Interesting. How did your overall facial appearance change?

I definitely don't have a strong chin (it's neutral) but it is the strongest chin in the family. Other changes are noted below

What happened to your nose, more humped or less?- less
What happened to your mandible, more forward or less?- more forward
What happened to your ears, CCW or CW rotated?- cw
What happened to your cheeks, thinner or fatter?- thinner
Indicator line?-around 42-43
Upper/Lower Inter-molar/Inter-canine distance?- 34.5 IMW 31 ICW
Ramus length?- much longer, probably helped by chewing too
Also maybe pictures with your eyes removed?- would prefer not but may post in the future.
What about tongue posture, what did you do with it? Did you keep it up or as low as possible?- up against the palate

I notice during sleep that my face just wants to bring my molars upwards for some reason, it's annoying because it leads to CW rotation, I notice tension in temporalis during sleep. It's not tension from my consciously. This probably means you're having issues posturing your mandible, perhaps even posturing it too far back since the temporalis is also responsible for bringing the mandible up and back.

How so? The nerves of the tongue are different compared to the nerves of the masseter. And the masseter isn't required to keep the mouth shut. The Trigeminal Nerve branches out and controls both

Also who's alt are you? I know whose alt you are, I'll leave you to guess who I am.

 

[betamanlet]

Interesting. How did your overall facial appearance change?

I definitely don't have a strong chin (it's neutral) but it is the strongest chin in the family. Other changes are noted below

What happened to your nose, more humped or less?- less
What happened to your mandible, more forward or less?- more forward
What happened to your ears, CCW or CW rotated?- cw
What happened to your cheeks, thinner or fatter?- thinner
Indicator line?-around 42-43
Upper/Lower Inter-molar/Inter-canine distance?- 34.5 IMW 31 ICW
Ramus length?- much longer, probably helped by chewing too
Also maybe pictures with your eyes removed?- would prefer not but may post in the future.
What about tongue posture, what did you do with it? Did you keep it up or as low as possible?- up against the palate

I notice during sleep that my face just wants to bring my molars upwards for some reason, it's annoying because it leads to CW rotation, I notice tension in temporalis during sleep. It's not tension from my consciously. This probably means you're having issues posturing your mandible, perhaps even posturing it too far back since the temporalis is also responsible for bringing the mandible up and back.

How so? The nerves of the tongue are different compared to the nerves of the masseter. And the masseter isn't required to keep the mouth shut. The Trigeminal Nerve branches out and controls both

Also who's alt are you? I know whose alt you are, I'll leave you to guess who I am.

Fascinating. How old were you during this, and how long did achieving class 1 take overall? Are you still making more progress?

 

[Deleted member 8632]

I heard it can cause/worsen tmj. Should i do it in the end or not? I have a normal bite and dont want to risk it, also i'm not recessed like in the before pic example in that thread