Make mouth/lips wider : Commissuroplasty overview & Makeup options

[NZb6Air]

18+ / Leanmaxxed Only

​

The mouth or lip width is the distance between the oral commissures.

Spoiler: Lip anatomy and terminology :

1 Philtrum
2 Philtral ridges/columns
3 Cupid’s bow
4 High points of the vermilion (bilateral)
5 White roll
6 Upper lip vermilion
7 Upper lip tubercle
8 Vermilion border (mucocutaneous junction)
9 Lower lip vermilion
10 Oral (labial) commissures
11 Nasolabial groove
12 Mentolabial groove

Obviously, this is to be considered only after having addressed your maxilla (projection & palate width¹), teeth normalization & lip tonicity. (it's all related)

FIRST LET'S GET THIS OUT OF THE WAY :
How to tell you need orthognathic and/or orthodontic work for your lips aesthetics

Lip Curvature :
Upper lip curvature (frontal view): the mid-philtrum height and bilateral oral commissure heights should be approximately equal in adults with the lips lightly in contact.

For example :
A significantly shorter mid-philtrum height compared with commissure height in an adult result in upper lip line morphology referred to as an inverted arc.

According to Dr.Naini :
The contour of the upper and lower lips at rest may resemble an inverted arc in a number of conditions, giving the patient the appearance of a frown:

1 - Maxillary or midfacial hypoplasia: The unintentionally aggressive appearance particularly common in ‘ Class III ’ patients is due to this inverted arc, secondary to maxillary hypoplasia. Management requires maxillary advancement.

2- Lowering/drooping of the oral commissures as a result of ageing: Management requires rhytidectomy (facelift).

Lip tonicity :

It refers to the muscular tone of the lips and it is easily predictable by the underlying jaw structure and, subsequently, teeth alignment.

For example :

Class 2 malocclusion will often lead to hyperactivity of the lower lip :

A more severe class 2 will often lead to upper lip hypotonicity :

Bimaxillary protrusion will often lead to limp or flaccid lips :

Correction of the underlying deformity allows normal lip function and often results in the upper lip developing normal tonicity.

Upper lip height (long philtrumcels) :

Don't forget that the skull is a 3D object and that includes lips so a projection and even CCW rotation of the maxilla would lower perceived upper lip height @Clavicular and expose more upper lip vermilion. However, it probably won't help your lip width since the crucial growth period has been missed. I'd need @RealSurgerymax opinion on this since he has actual experience with multipiece Lefort 1's.

With considerations to thick BBC upper lips which tend to be less indicative/more camouflaging of the underlying teeth and jaw structures, so get scans ig

Now that we've ruled out dentofacial deformities which is the reason most of us are ugly , it is still possible to have bad lip width without any skeletal problem due to genetics (), aging or soft tissue asymmetry.

What's an ideal lip width?

This nigga da Vinci thinks it should align with IPD in a well proportioned face

which is correct bro

What are the physiognomical advantages of an ideal lip width / Why bother ?

First of all it's a baby trait² and babyfacedness is negatively correlated with attractiveness, same logic as hollow cheeks : "Particular attention has been paid to facial features which distinguish infants from adults. " B a b y i s h " or infantile facial features include a high and protruding forehead, large eyes placed in the middle of the face, a small nose and mouth, and fat cheeks (Gardner & Wallach, 1965; Hess, 1970)."


i.e. the chérubin look is undesirable for adults, it's what makes us invisible (like actually this is the reason subhumans are invisible)

"As Zebrowitz (1997) noted, ‘‘a baby’s face is disarming’’ (p.64). Decades of research have shown that baby-faced adults are perceived as being more warm, trustworthy, and innocent than mature-faced adults (for a review, see Zebrowitz, 1997). They are also treated with greater patience, sensitivity, and compassion. For example, studies have demonstrated that baby-faced offenders tend to receive more lenient sentences than mature-faced offenders for certain types of crimes (e.g., Berry & Zebrowitz-McArthur, 1988). Studies have also found that baby-faced individuals are more persuasive than mature-faced individuals when trustworthiness is uncertain (Brownlow, 1992), and that corporations with baby-faced spokespeople are trusted more than those with mature-faced spokespeople during a mild public-relations crisis (Gorn, Jiang, & Johar, 2008). However, there are costs to the tenderness that a baby face engenders. Like babies, baby-faced adults are perceived as being incompetent and weak. Consequently, research has suggested that babyfaceness may be a liability for people striving to attain high positions of leadership in government (Zebrowitz & Montepare, 2005) and industry (Rule & Ambady, 2008)."³
Which is fine if you're femboymaxxing I guess

Secondly, it is a sign of physical formidability which then links it to leadership, the current evolutionary hypothesis being that canine tooth size and ICW is positively correlated with a wider mouth and big dimorphic canines (thus mouth) correlate with male physical combat and dominance in primates ⁴˒⁵

Indeed, mouth width positively correlates with perceived leadership ability and actual leadership performance in humans⁶

some cagefuel I stumbled upon in a study analyzing the Facial Anthropometric Data of Korean Pilots for Oxygen Mask Design and pilots mog civilians for some reason (they just look the part)⁷ @mug



Disproving the usual copes :

JUST GET MSE BRO, first of all, only a few orthos provide it ( https://www.moonmse.com/distributors-1 ), it's expensive af (quoted 16k USD by Dr. Sheri Salartash), it can fail and the expansion could be asymmetric with 0 evidence of it leading to an increase in lip width, let alone in adults unless you have some death tier palate width or go way overboard and bugsbunnymax like this nigga

THEN JUST GET SARPE LOL : This is the GOAT Ramieri in person here :

LIP DEVICE :

like @Angutoid 's

My New Mouth Widening Invention Without Smile Lines

So this is how it looks like: I could make it more complicated but i wanted it to cost less so every narrow mouthcel could benefit. Wear this overnight!!! You need 2 more things (1 if you don't care about smile lines) to use with this: A rubber band (Smaller the size more the pressure is)...

looksmax.org

or the ones displayed in @RecessedPrettyboy 's thread

Mouth Widening Appliances

Mouth Widening Appliance 3d models for 3d printing Now before someone asks How do I print it if I dont have a 3d printer? Just go to a 3d printing service store and print it. simple and shoudnt be expensive at all Here are the different sizes: 7cm: https://www.tinkercad.com/things/2ZfCaY9upiy...

looksmax.org

or FacialFlex's https://www.craniorehab.com/Facial-Flex-Adult-Microstomia-Prevention-Appliance.html

Well, first of all, none of them are arguing for their efficacy , so i'll try to play devil's advocate :

Potential argument 1 : Lip tribe bro

Well that's what ends up happening :

Potential argument 2 : Facial Flex

Well that one is specifically designed to prevent and manage microstomia i.e. we're talking about scarring or fibrosis here (= for it not to relapse) not to expand normal healthy tissue @Pendejo

Potential argument 3 : Anecdotal

People believe many things like iris color changes due to a raw meat diet @slavicpsycho, carbohydrate abstinence leading to optical superpowers @Never Get Up , mewing to increase lefort 3 area projection but these are "relatively" harmless except Bonesmashing stop it bro @Zeta @Clavicular

Spoiler: saar

A too strong or improper lip expansion session could cause damage to the delicate tissues of the lips, tearing of the fragile mucous membranes which could lead to infections, muscle strain which would cause chronic fatigue or spasms, nerve irritation, it could have an impact on the alignment of the teeth, the health of gums, etc. So many unkown and very undesirable consequences that simple anecdotes can't logically outweigh.

What the fuck to do then ?

Commissuroplasty
I'm sure you're already vaguely familiar with this procedure, the main goal of this procedure is to maintain lip competence, it's a very quick and effective surgery though : it doesn't need complexe techniques.

You can do it in 2 ways⁸ :
The simplest being : Buccal mucosal advancement


The alternative being : Myomucosal advancement flap


OK BRO but who tf performs it bro even and how much ?
SPAIN : https://mallorcamedicalgroup.com/en/procedures/plastic-surgery/facial-surgery/comisuroplasty/
Price : 1k€ to 2k€
TEXAS : https://planoplasticsurgery.com/lip-commissuroplasty/
Price : Get a quote yourself lil bro
I know Eppley used to perform it, he wrote on it extensively on his blog but he stopped doing it, he would be charging 800k USD anyway

Makeup
I couldn't find any makeup tutorial that does this specifically, JFL at foids btw, muh looksmax gender, they always just increase lip vertical size like some retards actual

Just imagine for me that you're doing a commissuroplasty but with makeup
You're gonna need first concelear for two reasons :
1- to blur the actual natural edges of your mouth
2- to create a fake new vermillion border

An eyeshadow brush :
to blend-in the concealer

Lip liner :
You're gonna overline your lips slightly past the natural commissure and extend the line just beyoned the natural edge but don't do overdo it to avoid pufferfishmaxxing

Lipstick as cherry chapstick wouldn't be able to fill :
You're gonna fill in your newly accquired vermillion with a matching lipstick, matte lipstick would work better since it'll make it look sharper, you want lighter in the center and darker in the outer corners to give a gradient effect, that will enhance the width visually, you'll understand easily if you have any drawing/coloring background

Optional : Highlighter on the cupid's bow and just below the upper lip to draw the attention to the center en enhance that gradient effect.
Contouring to further accentuate the shadow you setup with the concealer

Follow some "HOW TO GET BIGGER LIPS" tutorials on youtube to get the gist but only apply it to lateral commissures since they all jsut increase the height of the vermillions.

OR Moustache obviously :





¹Stephan, C.N., & Henneberg, M. (2003). Predicting mouth width from inter-canine width — a 75% rule. Journal of Forensic Sciences, 48, 725–727.
²Hildebrandt, K.A., & Fitzgerald, H.E. (1979). Facial feature determinants of perceived infant attractiveness. Infant Behavior & Development, 2, 329–339.
³Livingston, R.W., & Pearce, N.A. (2009). The teddy-bear effect does having a baby face benefit black chief executive officers? Psychological Science, 20, 1229–1236.
⁴Harvey, P.H., Kavanagh, M., & Clutton-Brock, T.H. (1978). Sexual dimorphism in primate teeth. Journal of Zoology, 186, 475–485.
⁵Plavcan, J.M., & van Schaik, C.P. (1992). Intrasexual competition and canine dimorphism in anthropoid primates. American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 87, 461–477.
⁶Re, D. E., & Rule, N. O. (2016). The big man has a big mouth: Mouth width correlates with perceived leadership ability and actual leadership performance.
⁷https://www.researchgate.net/public..._Data_of_Korean_Pilots_for_Oxygen_Mask_Design
⁸Parsel, S. M., & Winters, R. D. (2020). Commissuroplasty. Operative Techniques in Otolaryngology, 31(1), 33–37.

Spoiler: Tags

@Clavicular @Alexanderr @TechnoBoss @Jason Voorhees @truthhurts @greycel @sb23 @Haseeb @truthhurts @PeakIncels @UZB_Strebl @MA_ascender @SubhumanForever @kaligula567 @enchanted_elixir @Blackgymmax @Rea @HarrierDuBois

Quick edit : the 1.6 with alar base is a shit measurement for ideal lip width cause ala size isn't a key feature in aesthetic cause then you would just get alarplasty with a shit mouth width but that will look like pure dogshit

 

[The Homelander]

Mirin high effort

 

[Rea]

Ok 2sec I'm reading it

 

[CoreSchizo]

Nice thread but not the makeup part tbh

 

[irkkedmulatto]

Bump I needed this + will read later . high effort thread

 

[NZb6Air]

Nice thread but not the makeup part tbh

i'm not posting my face lil bro

 

[vratisevojvodo]

this pic gonna carry the thread

 

[Rea]

my lips are not my problem, but my overbite and my dogshit narrow palate are

very good thread, read every single molecule

 

[CoreSchizo]

i'm not posting my face lil bro

Nah, I'm just saying that I will not apply makeup.

 

[org3cel.RR]

18+ / Leanmaxxed Only

​

The mouth or lip width is the distance between the oral commissures.

Spoiler: Lip anatomy and terminology :

1 Philtrum
2 Philtral ridges/columns
3 Cupid’s bow
4 High points of the vermilion (bilateral)
5 White roll
6 Upper lip vermilion
7 Upper lip tubercle
8 Vermilion border (mucocutaneous junction)
9 Lower lip vermilion
10 Oral (labial) commissures
11 Nasolabial groove
12 Mentolabial groove

View attachment 3176634​

Obviously, this is to be considered only after having addressed your maxilla (projection & palate width¹), teeth normalization & lip tonicity. (it's all related)

FIRST LET'S GET THIS OUT OF THE WAY :
How to tell you need orthognathic and/or orthodontic work for your lips aesthetics

Lip Curvature :
Upper lip curvature (frontal view): the mid-philtrum height and bilateral oral commissure heights should be approximately equal in adults with the lips lightly in contact.

View attachment 3177487
For example :
A significantly shorter mid-philtrum height compared with commissure height in an adult result in upper lip line morphology referred to as an inverted arc.

View attachment 3177488View attachment 3177692
According to Dr.Naini :
The contour of the upper and lower lips at rest may resemble an inverted arc in a number of conditions, giving the patient the appearance of a frown:

1 - Maxillary or midfacial hypoplasia: The unintentionally aggressive appearance particularly common in ‘ Class III ’ patients is due to this inverted arc, secondary to maxillary hypoplasia. Management requires maxillary advancement.

2- Lowering/drooping of the oral commissures as a result of ageing: Management requires rhytidectomy (facelift).

Lip tonicity :

It refers to the muscular tone of the lips and it is easily predictable by the underlying jaw structure and, subsequently, teeth alignment.

For example :

Class 2 malocclusion will often lead to hyperactivity of the lower lip :

View attachment 3177547

A more severe class 2 will often lead to upper lip hypotonicity :

View attachment 3177552

Bimaxillary protrusion will often lead to limp or flaccid lips :

View attachment 3177653

Correction of the underlying deformity allows normal lip function and often results in the upper lip developing normal tonicity.

Upper lip height (long philtrumcels) :

View attachment 3177685

Don't forget that the skull is a 3D object and that includes lips so a projection and even CCW rotation of the maxilla would lower perceived upper lip height @Clavicular and expose more upper lip vermilion. However, it probably won't help your lip width since the crucial growth period has been missed. I'd need @RealSurgerymax opinion on this since he has actual experience with multipiece Lefort 1's.

With considerations to thick BBC upper lips which tend to be less indicative/more camouflaging of the underlying teeth and jaw structures, so get scans ig
View attachment 3177493




Now that we've ruled out dentofacial deformities which is the reason most of us are ugly , it is still possible to have bad lip width without any skeletal problem due to genetics (), aging or soft tissue asymmetry.

What's an ideal lip width?

This nigga da Vinci thinks it should align with IPD in a well proportioned face

View attachment 3177704View attachment 3177706

which is correct bro

View attachment 3177707View attachment 3177708View attachment 3177709
View attachment 3177719View attachment 3177722View attachment 3177733


What are the physiognomical advantages of an ideal lip width / Why bother ?

First of all it's a baby trait² and babyfacedness is negatively correlated with attractiveness, same logic as hollow cheeks : "Particular attention has been paid to facial features which distinguish infants from adults. " B a b y i s h " or infantile facial features include a high and protruding forehead, large eyes placed in the middle of the face, a small nose and mouth, and fat cheeks (Gardner & Wallach, 1965; Hess, 1970)."


i.e. the chérubin look is undesirable for adults, it's what makes us invisible (like actually this is the reason subhumans are invisible)
View attachment 3178365
"As Zebrowitz (1997) noted, ‘‘a baby’s face is disarming’’ (p.64). Decades of research have shown that baby-faced adults are perceived as being more warm, trustworthy, and innocent than mature-faced adults (for a review, see Zebrowitz, 1997). They are also treated with greater patience, sensitivity, and compassion. For example, studies have demonstrated that baby-faced offenders tend to receive more lenient sentences than mature-faced offenders for certain types of crimes (e.g., Berry & Zebrowitz-McArthur, 1988). Studies have also found that baby-faced individuals are more persuasive than mature-faced individuals when trustworthiness is uncertain (Brownlow, 1992), and that corporations with baby-faced spokespeople are trusted more than those with mature-faced spokespeople during a mild public-relations crisis (Gorn, Jiang, & Johar, 2008). However, there are costs to the tenderness that a baby face engenders. Like babies, baby-faced adults are perceived as being incompetent and weak. Consequently, research has suggested that babyfaceness may be a liability for people striving to attain high positions of leadership in government (Zebrowitz & Montepare, 2005) and industry (Rule & Ambady, 2008)."³
Which is fine if you're femboymaxxing I guess

Secondly, it is a sign of physical formidability which then links it to leadership, the current evolutionary hypothesis being that canine tooth size and ICW is positively correlated with a wider mouth and big dimorphic canines (thus mouth) correlate with male physical combat and dominance in primates ⁴˒⁵
View attachment 3177444
Indeed, mouth width positively correlates with perceived leadership ability and actual leadership performance in humans⁶

some cagefuel I stumbled upon in a study analyzing the Facial Anthropometric Data of Korean Pilots for Oxygen Mask Design and pilots mog civilians for some reason (they just look the part)⁷ @mug



Disproving the usual copes :

JUST GET MSE BRO, first of all, only a few orthos provide it ( https://www.moonmse.com/distributors-1 ), it's expensive af (quoted 16k USD by Dr. Sheri Salartash), it can fail and the expansion could be asymmetric with 0 evidence of it leading to an increase in lip width, let alone in adults unless you have some death tier palate width or go way overboard and bugsbunnymax like this nigga

View attachment 3178079


THEN JUST GET SARPE LOL : This is the GOAT Ramieri in person here :
View attachment 3178063


LIP DEVICE :

like @Angutoid 's

My New Mouth Widening Invention Without Smile Lines

So this is how it looks like: I could make it more complicated but i wanted it to cost less so every narrow mouthcel could benefit. Wear this overnight!!! You need 2 more things (1 if you don't care about smile lines) to use with this: A rubber band (Smaller the size more the pressure is)...

looksmax.org

or the ones displayed in @RecessedPrettyboy 's thread

Mouth Widening Appliances

Mouth Widening Appliance 3d models for 3d printing Now before someone asks How do I print it if I dont have a 3d printer? Just go to a 3d printing service store and print it. simple and shoudnt be expensive at all Here are the different sizes: 7cm: https://www.tinkercad.com/things/2ZfCaY9upiy...

looksmax.org

or FacialFlex's https://www.craniorehab.com/Facial-Flex-Adult-Microstomia-Prevention-Appliance.html

Well, first of all, none of them are arguing for their efficacy , so i'll try to play devil's advocate :

Potential argument 1 : Lip tribe bro

View attachment 3178292
Well that's what ends up happening :

View attachment 3178293
View attachment 3178294

Potential argument 2 : Facial Flex

Well that one is specifically designed to prevent and manage microstomia i.e. we're talking about scarring or fibrosis here (= for it not to relapse) not to expand normal healthy tissue @Pendejo

Potential argument 3 : Anecdotal

People believe many things like iris color changes due to a raw meat diet @slavicpsycho, carbohydrate abstinence leading to optical superpowers @Never Get Up , mewing to increase lefort 3 area projection but these are "relatively" harmless except Bonesmashing stop it bro @Zeta @Clavicular
A too strong or improper lip expansion session could cause damage to the delicate tissues of the lips, tearing of the fragile mucous membranes which could lead to infections, muscle strain which would cause chronic fatigue or spasms, nerve irritation, it could have an impact on the alignment of the teeth, the health of gums, etc. So many unkown and very undesirable consequences that simple anecdotes can't logically outweigh.

What the fuck to do then ?

Commissuroplasty
I'm sure you're already vaguely familiar with this procedure, the main goal of this procedure is to maintain lip competence, it's a very quick and effective surgery though : it doesn't need complexe techniques.

You can do it in 2 ways⁸ :
The simplest being : Buccal mucosal advancement


The alternative being : Myomucosal advancement flap


OK BRO but who tf performs it bro even and how much ?
SPAIN : https://mallorcamedicalgroup.com/en/procedures/plastic-surgery/facial-surgery/comisuroplasty/
Price : 1k€ to 2k€
TEXAS : https://planoplasticsurgery.com/lip-commissuroplasty/
Price : Get a quote yourself lil bro
I know Eppley used to perform it, he wrote on it extensively on his blog but he stopped doing it, he would be charging 800k USD anyway

Makeup
I couldn't find any makeup tutorial that does this specifically, JFL at foids btw, muh looksmax gender, they always just increase lip vertical size like some retards actual

Just imagine for me that you're doing a commissuroplasty but with makeup
You're gonna need first concelear for two reasons :
1- to blur the actual natural edges of your mouth
2- to create a fake new vermillion border

An eyeshadow brush :
to blend-in the concealer

Lip liner :
You're gonna overline your lips slightly past the natural commissure and extend the line just beyoned the natural edge but don't do overdo it to avoid pufferfishmaxxing

Lipstick as cherry chapstick wouldn't be able to fill :
You're gonna fill in your newly accquired vermillion with a matching lipstick, matte lipstick would work better since it'll make it look sharper, you want lighter in the center and darker in the outer corners to give a gradient effect, that will enhance the width visually, you'll understand easily if you have any drawing/coloring background

Optional : Highlighter on the cupid's bow and just below the upper lip to draw the attention to the center en enhance that gradient effect.
Contouring to further accentuate the shadow you setup with the concealer

Follow some "HOW TO GET BIGGER LIPS" tutorials on youtube to get the gist but only apply it to lateral commissures since they all jsut increase the height of the vermillions.



¹Stephan, C.N., & Henneberg, M. (2003). Predicting mouth width from inter-canine width — a 75% rule. Journal of Forensic Sciences, 48, 725–727.
²Hildebrandt, K.A., & Fitzgerald, H.E. (1979). Facial feature determinants of perceived infant attractiveness. Infant Behavior & Development, 2, 329–339.
³Livingston, R.W., & Pearce, N.A. (2009). The teddy-bear effect does having a baby face benefit black chief executive officers? Psychological Science, 20, 1229–1236.
⁴Harvey, P.H., Kavanagh, M., & Clutton-Brock, T.H. (1978). Sexual dimorphism in primate teeth. Journal of Zoology, 186, 475–485.
⁵Plavcan, J.M., & van Schaik, C.P. (1992). Intrasexual competition and canine dimorphism in anthropoid primates. American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 87, 461–477.
⁶Re, D. E., & Rule, N. O. (2016). The big man has a big mouth: Mouth width correlates with perceived leadership ability and actual leadership performance.
⁷https://www.researchgate.net/public..._Data_of_Korean_Pilots_for_Oxygen_Mask_Design
⁸Parsel, S. M., & Winters, R. D. (2020). Commissuroplasty. Operative Techniques in Otolaryngology, 31(1), 33–37.

Spoiler: Tags

@Clavicular @Alexanderr @TechnoBoss @Jason Voorhees @truthhurts @greycel @sb23 @Haseeb @truthhurts @PeakIncels @UZB_Strebl @MA_ascender @SubhumanForever @kaligula567 @enchanted_elixir @Blackgymmax

Nice to see high quality threads like this, mark me on more threads like this man

 

[Norwegian LTN]

18+ / Leanmaxxed Only

​

The mouth or lip width is the distance between the oral commissures.

Spoiler: Lip anatomy and terminology :

1 Philtrum
2 Philtral ridges/columns
3 Cupid’s bow
4 High points of the vermilion (bilateral)
5 White roll
6 Upper lip vermilion
7 Upper lip tubercle
8 Vermilion border (mucocutaneous junction)
9 Lower lip vermilion
10 Oral (labial) commissures
11 Nasolabial groove
12 Mentolabial groove

View attachment 3176634​

Obviously, this is to be considered only after having addressed your maxilla (projection & palate width¹), teeth normalization & lip tonicity. (it's all related)

FIRST LET'S GET THIS OUT OF THE WAY :
How to tell you need orthognathic and/or orthodontic work for your lips aesthetics

Lip Curvature :
Upper lip curvature (frontal view): the mid-philtrum height and bilateral oral commissure heights should be approximately equal in adults with the lips lightly in contact.

View attachment 3177487
For example :
A significantly shorter mid-philtrum height compared with commissure height in an adult result in upper lip line morphology referred to as an inverted arc.

View attachment 3177488View attachment 3177692
According to Dr.Naini :
The contour of the upper and lower lips at rest may resemble an inverted arc in a number of conditions, giving the patient the appearance of a frown:

1 - Maxillary or midfacial hypoplasia: The unintentionally aggressive appearance particularly common in ‘ Class III ’ patients is due to this inverted arc, secondary to maxillary hypoplasia. Management requires maxillary advancement.

2- Lowering/drooping of the oral commissures as a result of ageing: Management requires rhytidectomy (facelift).

Lip tonicity :

It refers to the muscular tone of the lips and it is easily predictable by the underlying jaw structure and, subsequently, teeth alignment.

For example :

Class 2 malocclusion will often lead to hyperactivity of the lower lip :

View attachment 3177547

A more severe class 2 will often lead to upper lip hypotonicity :

View attachment 3177552

Bimaxillary protrusion will often lead to limp or flaccid lips :

View attachment 3177653

Correction of the underlying deformity allows normal lip function and often results in the upper lip developing normal tonicity.

Upper lip height (long philtrumcels) :

View attachment 3177685

Don't forget that the skull is a 3D object and that includes lips so a projection and even CCW rotation of the maxilla would lower perceived upper lip height @Clavicular and expose more upper lip vermilion. However, it probably won't help your lip width since the crucial growth period has been missed. I'd need @RealSurgerymax opinion on this since he has actual experience with multipiece Lefort 1's.

With considerations to thick BBC upper lips which tend to be less indicative/more camouflaging of the underlying teeth and jaw structures, so get scans ig
View attachment 3177493




Now that we've ruled out dentofacial deformities which is the reason most of us are ugly , it is still possible to have bad lip width without any skeletal problem due to genetics (), aging or soft tissue asymmetry.

What's an ideal lip width?

This nigga da Vinci thinks it should align with IPD in a well proportioned face

View attachment 3177704View attachment 3177706

which is correct bro

View attachment 3177707View attachment 3177708View attachment 3177709
View attachment 3177719View attachment 3177722View attachment 3177733


What are the physiognomical advantages of an ideal lip width / Why bother ?

First of all it's a baby trait² and babyfacedness is negatively correlated with attractiveness, same logic as hollow cheeks : "Particular attention has been paid to facial features which distinguish infants from adults. " B a b y i s h " or infantile facial features include a high and protruding forehead, large eyes placed in the middle of the face, a small nose and mouth, and fat cheeks (Gardner & Wallach, 1965; Hess, 1970)."


i.e. the chérubin look is undesirable for adults, it's what makes us invisible (like actually this is the reason subhumans are invisible)
View attachment 3178365
"As Zebrowitz (1997) noted, ‘‘a baby’s face is disarming’’ (p.64). Decades of research have shown that baby-faced adults are perceived as being more warm, trustworthy, and innocent than mature-faced adults (for a review, see Zebrowitz, 1997). They are also treated with greater patience, sensitivity, and compassion. For example, studies have demonstrated that baby-faced offenders tend to receive more lenient sentences than mature-faced offenders for certain types of crimes (e.g., Berry & Zebrowitz-McArthur, 1988). Studies have also found that baby-faced individuals are more persuasive than mature-faced individuals when trustworthiness is uncertain (Brownlow, 1992), and that corporations with baby-faced spokespeople are trusted more than those with mature-faced spokespeople during a mild public-relations crisis (Gorn, Jiang, & Johar, 2008). However, there are costs to the tenderness that a baby face engenders. Like babies, baby-faced adults are perceived as being incompetent and weak. Consequently, research has suggested that babyfaceness may be a liability for people striving to attain high positions of leadership in government (Zebrowitz & Montepare, 2005) and industry (Rule & Ambady, 2008)."³
Which is fine if you're femboymaxxing I guess

Secondly, it is a sign of physical formidability which then links it to leadership, the current evolutionary hypothesis being that canine tooth size and ICW is positively correlated with a wider mouth and big dimorphic canines (thus mouth) correlate with male physical combat and dominance in primates ⁴˒⁵
View attachment 3177444
Indeed, mouth width positively correlates with perceived leadership ability and actual leadership performance in humans⁶

some cagefuel I stumbled upon in a study analyzing the Facial Anthropometric Data of Korean Pilots for Oxygen Mask Design and pilots mog civilians for some reason (they just look the part)⁷ @mug



Disproving the usual copes :

JUST GET MSE BRO, first of all, only a few orthos provide it ( https://www.moonmse.com/distributors-1 ), it's expensive af (quoted 16k USD by Dr. Sheri Salartash), it can fail and the expansion could be asymmetric with 0 evidence of it leading to an increase in lip width, let alone in adults unless you have some death tier palate width or go way overboard and bugsbunnymax like this nigga

View attachment 3178079


THEN JUST GET SARPE LOL : This is the GOAT Ramieri in person here :
View attachment 3178063


LIP DEVICE :

like @Angutoid 's

My New Mouth Widening Invention Without Smile Lines

So this is how it looks like: I could make it more complicated but i wanted it to cost less so every narrow mouthcel could benefit. Wear this overnight!!! You need 2 more things (1 if you don't care about smile lines) to use with this: A rubber band (Smaller the size more the pressure is)...

looksmax.org

or the ones displayed in @RecessedPrettyboy 's thread

Mouth Widening Appliances

Mouth Widening Appliance 3d models for 3d printing Now before someone asks How do I print it if I dont have a 3d printer? Just go to a 3d printing service store and print it. simple and shoudnt be expensive at all Here are the different sizes: 7cm: https://www.tinkercad.com/things/2ZfCaY9upiy...

looksmax.org

or FacialFlex's https://www.craniorehab.com/Facial-Flex-Adult-Microstomia-Prevention-Appliance.html

Well, first of all, none of them are arguing for their efficacy , so i'll try to play devil's advocate :

Potential argument 1 : Lip tribe bro

View attachment 3178292
Well that's what ends up happening :

View attachment 3178293
View attachment 3178294

Potential argument 2 : Facial Flex

Well that one is specifically designed to prevent and manage microstomia i.e. we're talking about scarring or fibrosis here (= for it not to relapse) not to expand normal healthy tissue @Pendejo

Potential argument 3 : Anecdotal

People believe many things like iris color changes due to a raw meat diet @slavicpsycho, carbohydrate abstinence leading to optical superpowers @Never Get Up , mewing to increase lefort 3 area projection but these are "relatively" harmless except Bonesmashing stop it bro @Zeta @Clavicular
A too strong or improper lip expansion session could cause damage to the delicate tissues of the lips, tearing of the fragile mucous membranes which could lead to infections, muscle strain which would cause chronic fatigue or spasms, nerve irritation, it could have an impact on the alignment of the teeth, the health of gums, etc. So many unkown and very undesirable consequences that simple anecdotes can't logically outweigh.

What the fuck to do then ?

Commissuroplasty
I'm sure you're already vaguely familiar with this procedure, the main goal of this procedure is to maintain lip competence, it's a very quick and effective surgery though : it doesn't need complexe techniques.

You can do it in 2 ways⁸ :
The simplest being : Buccal mucosal advancement


The alternative being : Myomucosal advancement flap


OK BRO but who tf performs it bro even and how much ?
SPAIN : https://mallorcamedicalgroup.com/en/procedures/plastic-surgery/facial-surgery/comisuroplasty/
Price : 1k€ to 2k€
TEXAS : https://planoplasticsurgery.com/lip-commissuroplasty/
Price : Get a quote yourself lil bro
I know Eppley used to perform it, he wrote on it extensively on his blog but he stopped doing it, he would be charging 800k USD anyway

Makeup
I couldn't find any makeup tutorial that does this specifically, JFL at foids btw, muh looksmax gender, they always just increase lip vertical size like some retards actual

Just imagine for me that you're doing a commissuroplasty but with makeup
You're gonna need first concelear for two reasons :
1- to blur the actual natural edges of your mouth
2- to create a fake new vermillion border

An eyeshadow brush :
to blend-in the concealer

Lip liner :
You're gonna overline your lips slightly past the natural commissure and extend the line just beyoned the natural edge but don't do overdo it to avoid pufferfishmaxxing

Lipstick as cherry chapstick wouldn't be able to fill :
You're gonna fill in your newly accquired vermillion with a matching lipstick, matte lipstick would work better since it'll make it look sharper, you want lighter in the center and darker in the outer corners to give a gradient effect, that will enhance the width visually, you'll understand easily if you have any drawing/coloring background

Optional : Highlighter on the cupid's bow and just below the upper lip to draw the attention to the center en enhance that gradient effect.
Contouring to further accentuate the shadow you setup with the concealer

Follow some "HOW TO GET BIGGER LIPS" tutorials on youtube to get the gist but only apply it to lateral commissures since they all jsut increase the height of the vermillions.



¹Stephan, C.N., & Henneberg, M. (2003). Predicting mouth width from inter-canine width — a 75% rule. Journal of Forensic Sciences, 48, 725–727.
²Hildebrandt, K.A., & Fitzgerald, H.E. (1979). Facial feature determinants of perceived infant attractiveness. Infant Behavior & Development, 2, 329–339.
³Livingston, R.W., & Pearce, N.A. (2009). The teddy-bear effect does having a baby face benefit black chief executive officers? Psychological Science, 20, 1229–1236.
⁴Harvey, P.H., Kavanagh, M., & Clutton-Brock, T.H. (1978). Sexual dimorphism in primate teeth. Journal of Zoology, 186, 475–485.
⁵Plavcan, J.M., & van Schaik, C.P. (1992). Intrasexual competition and canine dimorphism in anthropoid primates. American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 87, 461–477.
⁶Re, D. E., & Rule, N. O. (2016). The big man has a big mouth: Mouth width correlates with perceived leadership ability and actual leadership performance.
⁷https://www.researchgate.net/public..._Data_of_Korean_Pilots_for_Oxygen_Mask_Design
⁸Parsel, S. M., & Winters, R. D. (2020). Commissuroplasty. Operative Techniques in Otolaryngology, 31(1), 33–37.

Spoiler: Tags

@Clavicular @Alexanderr @TechnoBoss @Jason Voorhees @truthhurts @greycel @sb23 @Haseeb @truthhurts @PeakIncels @UZB_Strebl @MA_ascender @SubhumanForever @kaligula567 @enchanted_elixir @Blackgymmax

Very good thread

 

[NZb6Air]

No tag No care.

NO TAG NO CARE

i did tag (totally not edited)

 

[mug]

Great thread! I was thinking today that my lips always look weird and if they looked better it would greatly affect my face!

 

[Rea]

i did tag (totally not edited)

Ok I forgive you...

 

[HarrierDuBois]

i did tag (totally not edited)

Ah nevermind it's about mouth width, mine is amazing, no tag needed.

(Keep me tagged in future posts though)

 

[mug]

a very wide mouth is bad if its wider then pupils, youll look like monkey if it is.

Thats why a proportional mouth is ideal

 

[TechnoBoss]

Good thread. I've always said that lips and eyebrows (but especially lips) are so crucial to aesthetics. From what I've read so far, there's a lot of good information here. Still reading through it

Why are lips so rarely talked about? Do you think people interpret aesthetic lips as being somehow feminine?

 

[truthhurts]

@chudlite consult the birds. A high iq thread like this must get more attention

 

[RapeAllFemales]

My philtrum is horrible, but the width is fine

 

[NZb6Air]

Why are lips so rarely talked about? Do you think people interpret aesthetic lips as being somehow feminine?

Ye probably, people would associate sharpness and robustness to masculinity so lips which would need be to rounder plump are overlooked and there's this image of lips + lipstick being a symbol of le icon woman or femme fatale

There's suprisingly not enough literature on this too (male lip width), i connected most of it

P.S: This was my idea of a water down/ simple to read thread, btw I don't see how this could be made more enjoyable to read without falling in oversimplification/incorrect stuff

 

[MoggingCurries]

another thing to do (which really works) is to rep me

 

[chudlite]

18+ / Leanmaxxed Only

​

The mouth or lip width is the distance between the oral commissures.

Spoiler: Lip anatomy and terminology :

1 Philtrum
2 Philtral ridges/columns
3 Cupid’s bow
4 High points of the vermilion (bilateral)
5 White roll
6 Upper lip vermilion
7 Upper lip tubercle
8 Vermilion border (mucocutaneous junction)
9 Lower lip vermilion
10 Oral (labial) commissures
11 Nasolabial groove
12 Mentolabial groove

View attachment 3176634​

Obviously, this is to be considered only after having addressed your maxilla (projection & palate width¹), teeth normalization & lip tonicity. (it's all related)

FIRST LET'S GET THIS OUT OF THE WAY :
How to tell you need orthognathic and/or orthodontic work for your lips aesthetics

Lip Curvature :
Upper lip curvature (frontal view): the mid-philtrum height and bilateral oral commissure heights should be approximately equal in adults with the lips lightly in contact.

View attachment 3177487
For example :
A significantly shorter mid-philtrum height compared with commissure height in an adult result in upper lip line morphology referred to as an inverted arc.

View attachment 3177488View attachment 3177692
According to Dr.Naini :
The contour of the upper and lower lips at rest may resemble an inverted arc in a number of conditions, giving the patient the appearance of a frown:

1 - Maxillary or midfacial hypoplasia: The unintentionally aggressive appearance particularly common in ‘ Class III ’ patients is due to this inverted arc, secondary to maxillary hypoplasia. Management requires maxillary advancement.

2- Lowering/drooping of the oral commissures as a result of ageing: Management requires rhytidectomy (facelift).

Lip tonicity :

It refers to the muscular tone of the lips and it is easily predictable by the underlying jaw structure and, subsequently, teeth alignment.

For example :

Class 2 malocclusion will often lead to hyperactivity of the lower lip :

View attachment 3177547

A more severe class 2 will often lead to upper lip hypotonicity :

View attachment 3177552

Bimaxillary protrusion will often lead to limp or flaccid lips :

View attachment 3177653

Correction of the underlying deformity allows normal lip function and often results in the upper lip developing normal tonicity.

Upper lip height (long philtrumcels) :

View attachment 3177685

Don't forget that the skull is a 3D object and that includes lips so a projection and even CCW rotation of the maxilla would lower perceived upper lip height @Clavicular and expose more upper lip vermilion. However, it probably won't help your lip width since the crucial growth period has been missed. I'd need @RealSurgerymax opinion on this since he has actual experience with multipiece Lefort 1's.

With considerations to thick BBC upper lips which tend to be less indicative/more camouflaging of the underlying teeth and jaw structures, so get scans ig
View attachment 3177493




Now that we've ruled out dentofacial deformities which is the reason most of us are ugly , it is still possible to have bad lip width without any skeletal problem due to genetics (), aging or soft tissue asymmetry.

What's an ideal lip width?

This nigga da Vinci thinks it should align with IPD in a well proportioned face

View attachment 3177704View attachment 3177706

which is correct bro

View attachment 3177707View attachment 3177708View attachment 3177709
View attachment 3177719View attachment 3177722View attachment 3177733


What are the physiognomical advantages of an ideal lip width / Why bother ?

First of all it's a baby trait² and babyfacedness is negatively correlated with attractiveness, same logic as hollow cheeks : "Particular attention has been paid to facial features which distinguish infants from adults. " B a b y i s h " or infantile facial features include a high and protruding forehead, large eyes placed in the middle of the face, a small nose and mouth, and fat cheeks (Gardner & Wallach, 1965; Hess, 1970)."


i.e. the chérubin look is undesirable for adults, it's what makes us invisible (like actually this is the reason subhumans are invisible)
View attachment 3178365
"As Zebrowitz (1997) noted, ‘‘a baby’s face is disarming’’ (p.64). Decades of research have shown that baby-faced adults are perceived as being more warm, trustworthy, and innocent than mature-faced adults (for a review, see Zebrowitz, 1997). They are also treated with greater patience, sensitivity, and compassion. For example, studies have demonstrated that baby-faced offenders tend to receive more lenient sentences than mature-faced offenders for certain types of crimes (e.g., Berry & Zebrowitz-McArthur, 1988). Studies have also found that baby-faced individuals are more persuasive than mature-faced individuals when trustworthiness is uncertain (Brownlow, 1992), and that corporations with baby-faced spokespeople are trusted more than those with mature-faced spokespeople during a mild public-relations crisis (Gorn, Jiang, & Johar, 2008). However, there are costs to the tenderness that a baby face engenders. Like babies, baby-faced adults are perceived as being incompetent and weak. Consequently, research has suggested that babyfaceness may be a liability for people striving to attain high positions of leadership in government (Zebrowitz & Montepare, 2005) and industry (Rule & Ambady, 2008)."³
Which is fine if you're femboymaxxing I guess

Secondly, it is a sign of physical formidability which then links it to leadership, the current evolutionary hypothesis being that canine tooth size and ICW is positively correlated with a wider mouth and big dimorphic canines (thus mouth) correlate with male physical combat and dominance in primates ⁴˒⁵
View attachment 3177444
Indeed, mouth width positively correlates with perceived leadership ability and actual leadership performance in humans⁶

some cagefuel I stumbled upon in a study analyzing the Facial Anthropometric Data of Korean Pilots for Oxygen Mask Design and pilots mog civilians for some reason (they just look the part)⁷ @mug



Disproving the usual copes :

JUST GET MSE BRO, first of all, only a few orthos provide it ( https://www.moonmse.com/distributors-1 ), it's expensive af (quoted 16k USD by Dr. Sheri Salartash), it can fail and the expansion could be asymmetric with 0 evidence of it leading to an increase in lip width, let alone in adults unless you have some death tier palate width or go way overboard and bugsbunnymax like this nigga

View attachment 3178079


THEN JUST GET SARPE LOL : This is the GOAT Ramieri in person here :
View attachment 3178063


LIP DEVICE :

like @Angutoid 's

My New Mouth Widening Invention Without Smile Lines

So this is how it looks like: I could make it more complicated but i wanted it to cost less so every narrow mouthcel could benefit. Wear this overnight!!! You need 2 more things (1 if you don't care about smile lines) to use with this: A rubber band (Smaller the size more the pressure is)...

looksmax.org

or the ones displayed in @RecessedPrettyboy 's thread

Mouth Widening Appliances

Mouth Widening Appliance 3d models for 3d printing Now before someone asks How do I print it if I dont have a 3d printer? Just go to a 3d printing service store and print it. simple and shoudnt be expensive at all Here are the different sizes: 7cm: https://www.tinkercad.com/things/2ZfCaY9upiy...

looksmax.org

or FacialFlex's https://www.craniorehab.com/Facial-Flex-Adult-Microstomia-Prevention-Appliance.html

Well, first of all, none of them are arguing for their efficacy , so i'll try to play devil's advocate :

Potential argument 1 : Lip tribe bro

View attachment 3178292
Well that's what ends up happening :

View attachment 3178293
View attachment 3178294

Potential argument 2 : Facial Flex

Well that one is specifically designed to prevent and manage microstomia i.e. we're talking about scarring or fibrosis here (= for it not to relapse) not to expand normal healthy tissue @Pendejo

Potential argument 3 : Anecdotal

People believe many things like iris color changes due to a raw meat diet @slavicpsycho, carbohydrate abstinence leading to optical superpowers @Never Get Up , mewing to increase lefort 3 area projection but these are "relatively" harmless except Bonesmashing stop it bro @Zeta @Clavicular

A too strong or improper lip expansion session could cause damage to the delicate tissues of the lips, tearing of the fragile mucous membranes which could lead to infections, muscle strain which would cause chronic fatigue or spasms, nerve irritation, it could have an impact on the alignment of the teeth, the health of gums, etc. So many unkown and very undesirable consequences that simple anecdotes can't logically outweigh.

What the fuck to do then ?

Commissuroplasty
I'm sure you're already vaguely familiar with this procedure, the main goal of this procedure is to maintain lip competence, it's a very quick and effective surgery though : it doesn't need complexe techniques.

You can do it in 2 ways⁸ :
The simplest being : Buccal mucosal advancement


The alternative being : Myomucosal advancement flap


OK BRO but who tf performs it bro even and how much ?
SPAIN : https://mallorcamedicalgroup.com/en/procedures/plastic-surgery/facial-surgery/comisuroplasty/
Price : 1k€ to 2k€
TEXAS : https://planoplasticsurgery.com/lip-commissuroplasty/
Price : Get a quote yourself lil bro
I know Eppley used to perform it, he wrote on it extensively on his blog but he stopped doing it, he would be charging 800k USD anyway

Makeup
I couldn't find any makeup tutorial that does this specifically, JFL at foids btw, muh looksmax gender, they always just increase lip vertical size like some retards actual

Just imagine for me that you're doing a commissuroplasty but with makeup
You're gonna need first concelear for two reasons :
1- to blur the actual natural edges of your mouth
2- to create a fake new vermillion border

An eyeshadow brush :
to blend-in the concealer

Lip liner :
You're gonna overline your lips slightly past the natural commissure and extend the line just beyoned the natural edge but don't do overdo it to avoid pufferfishmaxxing

Lipstick as cherry chapstick wouldn't be able to fill :
You're gonna fill in your newly accquired vermillion with a matching lipstick, matte lipstick would work better since it'll make it look sharper, you want lighter in the center and darker in the outer corners to give a gradient effect, that will enhance the width visually, you'll understand easily if you have any drawing/coloring background

Optional : Highlighter on the cupid's bow and just below the upper lip to draw the attention to the center en enhance that gradient effect.
Contouring to further accentuate the shadow you setup with the concealer

Follow some "HOW TO GET BIGGER LIPS" tutorials on youtube to get the gist but only apply it to lateral commissures since they all jsut increase the height of the vermillions.

OR Moustache obviously :





¹Stephan, C.N., & Henneberg, M. (2003). Predicting mouth width from inter-canine width — a 75% rule. Journal of Forensic Sciences, 48, 725–727.
²Hildebrandt, K.A., & Fitzgerald, H.E. (1979). Facial feature determinants of perceived infant attractiveness. Infant Behavior & Development, 2, 329–339.
³Livingston, R.W., & Pearce, N.A. (2009). The teddy-bear effect does having a baby face benefit black chief executive officers? Psychological Science, 20, 1229–1236.
⁴Harvey, P.H., Kavanagh, M., & Clutton-Brock, T.H. (1978). Sexual dimorphism in primate teeth. Journal of Zoology, 186, 475–485.
⁵Plavcan, J.M., & van Schaik, C.P. (1992). Intrasexual competition and canine dimorphism in anthropoid primates. American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 87, 461–477.
⁶Re, D. E., & Rule, N. O. (2016). The big man has a big mouth: Mouth width correlates with perceived leadership ability and actual leadership performance.
⁷https://www.researchgate.net/public..._Data_of_Korean_Pilots_for_Oxygen_Mask_Design
⁸Parsel, S. M., & Winters, R. D. (2020). Commissuroplasty. Operative Techniques in Otolaryngology, 31(1), 33–37.

Spoiler: Tags

@Clavicular @Alexanderr @TechnoBoss @Jason Voorhees @truthhurts @greycel @sb23 @Haseeb @truthhurts @PeakIncels @UZB_Strebl @MA_ascender @SubhumanForever @kaligula567 @enchanted_elixir @Blackgymmax @Rea @HarrierDuBois

Quick edit : the 1.6 with alar base is a shit measurement for ideal lip width cause ala size isn't a key feature in aesthetic cause then you would just get alarplasty with a shit mouth width but that will look like pure dogshit

brutal no tagpill

 

[chudlite]

@chudlite consult the birds. A high iq thread like this must get more attention

@kaligula567 was the only nigga with the heart and vigor to tag random niggas its why hr was leader of birds, @Kaari is the new leader ask him to start spam tagging everyone

 

[NZb6Air]

brutal no tagpill

you said you aren't interested in looksmax stuff yourself, mostly offtopic

 

[future_]

great thread for a narrow mouthcel like me. thanks op!

 

[chudlite]

you said you aren't interested in looksmax stuff yourself, mostly offtopic

true i did say that, and it is true, nice thread i read about half of it before my genz brain didnt let me

 

[Kaari]

@kaligula567 was the only nigga with the heart and vigor to tag random niggas its why hr was leader of birds, @Kaari is the new leader ask him to start spam tagging everyone

im too traumatised to you use my new powers because of the @kaligula567 curse

sorry brocel

 

[Kaari]

@kaligula567 was the only nigga with the heart and vigor to tag random niggas its why hr was leader of birds, @Kaari is the new leader ask him to start spam tagging everyone

new annunciation process for the birds

You must rep me 1000 times in 2 minutes to be apart of the flock

Or if your an OG member or i ruthlessly tag you, your forced to stay by choice or by force

 

[chudlite]

new annunciation process for the birds

You must rep me 1000 times in 2 minutes to be apart of the flock

Or if your an OG member or i ruthlessly tag you, your forced to stay by choice or by force

id recommend making a bird roll call copy pasta so u can reuinite birds with copy and paste, just write it into your notes app

 

[Kaari]

id recommend making a bird roll call copy pasta so u can reuinite birds with copy and paste, just write it into your notes app

Well I’m currently trying to write a new song for it called the pingpill curse

The song only sounds right on the first verse and chorus though

My grandest ambitions will be aspired upon soon though, mark my words

 

[NZb6Air]

Well I’m currently trying to write a new song for it called the pingpill curse

The song only sounds right on the first verse and chorus though

My grandest ambitions will be aspired upon soon though, mark my words

 

[Flipadelphia]

Good post, what about using PDO threads?

 

[NZb6Air]

Good post, what about using PDO threads?

it's for lifting and tightening the skin, maybe if you're old af then it would be an option, however if you're just pinning ghkcu u won't need it

 

[distance decay]

great thread

 

[Melly]

it's for lifting and tightening the skin, maybe if you're old af then it would be an option, however if you're just pinning ghkcu u won't need it

Could u make thread on ghkcu specifically and what to combine with it for anty anti aging cuz there is zero threads on it on org plz

 

[NZb6Air]

Could u make thread on ghkcu specifically and what to combine with it for anty anti aging cuz there is zero threads on it on org plz

like agemaxxing? i'm gonna have to dive deep into it at some point since i'm getting old

 

[NZb6Air]

@Clavicular

 

[Melly]

like agemaxxing? i'm gonna have to dive deep into it at some point since i'm getting old

Yeah smth like that whats your age arent u in your late 20s?

 

[NZb6Air]

Yeah smth like that whats your age arent u in your late 20s?

26

 

[Clavicular]

@Clavicular

Didnt see ur original tag, just stickied it and will move it to BOTB in a day or two

 

[NZb6Air]

Didnt see ur original tag, just stickied it and will move it to BOTB in a day or two

rate the thread, is it good

 

[Clavicular]

rate the thread, is it good

Yes, can u elab what u were talking about for my lips. Also mirin covering softmax and hardmax options with hyperspecific detail. I will ensure to recommend the contributor badge maybe after 1 more thread like this

 

[NZb6Air]

Yes, can u elab what u were talking about for my lips. Also mirin covering softmax and hardmax options with hyperspecific detail. I will ensure to recommend the contributor badge maybe after 1 more thread like this

You complained about your long philtrum (upper lip height) before which is just an illusion cause your maxilla or teeth don't project your lips enough
these are identical copies
if u just take ur maxilla and ccw rotate it (here 4 degrees) and advance it just a bit fully forward not a single pixel vertically, the upper lip height decreases from the pov of that eye and more vermillion (red shit) of the upper lip is exposed

 

[Clavicular]

You complained about your long philtrum (upper lip height) before which is just an illusion cause your maxilla or teeth don't project your lips enough
these are identical copies
if u just take ur maxilla and ccw rotate it (here 4 degrees) and advance it just a bit fully forward not a single pixel vertically, the upper lip height decreases from the pov of that eye and more vermillion (red shit) of the upper lip is exposed
View attachment 3178946

the problem is ccw shortens the midface, mine is already shorter than ideal.

 

[NZb6Air]

the problem is ccw shortens the midface, mine is already shorter than ideal.

yes,

for you though need actual scans

there's too much difference between this

and this

what did giant say

 

[Clavicular]

yes,

for you though need actual scans

there's too much difference between this
View attachment 3178953View attachment 3178954

and this

View attachment 3178955

what did giant say

My appointment for scans got postponed, but yea selfie camera distorts MFR

 

[Haseeb]

18+ / Leanmaxxed Only

​

The mouth or lip width is the distance between the oral commissures.

Spoiler: Lip anatomy and terminology :

1 Philtrum
2 Philtral ridges/columns
3 Cupid’s bow
4 High points of the vermilion (bilateral)
5 White roll
6 Upper lip vermilion
7 Upper lip tubercle
8 Vermilion border (mucocutaneous junction)
9 Lower lip vermilion
10 Oral (labial) commissures
11 Nasolabial groove
12 Mentolabial groove

View attachment 3176634​

Obviously, this is to be considered only after having addressed your maxilla (projection & palate width¹), teeth normalization & lip tonicity. (it's all related)

FIRST LET'S GET THIS OUT OF THE WAY :
How to tell you need orthognathic and/or orthodontic work for your lips aesthetics

Lip Curvature :
Upper lip curvature (frontal view): the mid-philtrum height and bilateral oral commissure heights should be approximately equal in adults with the lips lightly in contact.

View attachment 3177487
For example :
A significantly shorter mid-philtrum height compared with commissure height in an adult result in upper lip line morphology referred to as an inverted arc.

View attachment 3177488View attachment 3177692
According to Dr.Naini :
The contour of the upper and lower lips at rest may resemble an inverted arc in a number of conditions, giving the patient the appearance of a frown:

1 - Maxillary or midfacial hypoplasia: The unintentionally aggressive appearance particularly common in ‘ Class III ’ patients is due to this inverted arc, secondary to maxillary hypoplasia. Management requires maxillary advancement.

2- Lowering/drooping of the oral commissures as a result of ageing: Management requires rhytidectomy (facelift).

Lip tonicity :

It refers to the muscular tone of the lips and it is easily predictable by the underlying jaw structure and, subsequently, teeth alignment.

For example :

Class 2 malocclusion will often lead to hyperactivity of the lower lip :

View attachment 3177547

A more severe class 2 will often lead to upper lip hypotonicity :

View attachment 3177552

Bimaxillary protrusion will often lead to limp or flaccid lips :

View attachment 3177653

Correction of the underlying deformity allows normal lip function and often results in the upper lip developing normal tonicity.

Upper lip height (long philtrumcels) :

View attachment 3177685

Don't forget that the skull is a 3D object and that includes lips so a projection and even CCW rotation of the maxilla would lower perceived upper lip height @Clavicular and expose more upper lip vermilion. However, it probably won't help your lip width since the crucial growth period has been missed. I'd need @RealSurgerymax opinion on this since he has actual experience with multipiece Lefort 1's.

With considerations to thick BBC upper lips which tend to be less indicative/more camouflaging of the underlying teeth and jaw structures, so get scans ig
View attachment 3177493




Now that we've ruled out dentofacial deformities which is the reason most of us are ugly , it is still possible to have bad lip width without any skeletal problem due to genetics (), aging or soft tissue asymmetry.

What's an ideal lip width?

This nigga da Vinci thinks it should align with IPD in a well proportioned face

View attachment 3177704View attachment 3177706

which is correct bro

View attachment 3177707View attachment 3177708View attachment 3177709
View attachment 3177719View attachment 3177722View attachment 3177733


What are the physiognomical advantages of an ideal lip width / Why bother ?

First of all it's a baby trait² and babyfacedness is negatively correlated with attractiveness, same logic as hollow cheeks : "Particular attention has been paid to facial features which distinguish infants from adults. " B a b y i s h " or infantile facial features include a high and protruding forehead, large eyes placed in the middle of the face, a small nose and mouth, and fat cheeks (Gardner & Wallach, 1965; Hess, 1970)."


i.e. the chérubin look is undesirable for adults, it's what makes us invisible (like actually this is the reason subhumans are invisible)
View attachment 3178365
"As Zebrowitz (1997) noted, ‘‘a baby’s face is disarming’’ (p.64). Decades of research have shown that baby-faced adults are perceived as being more warm, trustworthy, and innocent than mature-faced adults (for a review, see Zebrowitz, 1997). They are also treated with greater patience, sensitivity, and compassion. For example, studies have demonstrated that baby-faced offenders tend to receive more lenient sentences than mature-faced offenders for certain types of crimes (e.g., Berry & Zebrowitz-McArthur, 1988). Studies have also found that baby-faced individuals are more persuasive than mature-faced individuals when trustworthiness is uncertain (Brownlow, 1992), and that corporations with baby-faced spokespeople are trusted more than those with mature-faced spokespeople during a mild public-relations crisis (Gorn, Jiang, & Johar, 2008). However, there are costs to the tenderness that a baby face engenders. Like babies, baby-faced adults are perceived as being incompetent and weak. Consequently, research has suggested that babyfaceness may be a liability for people striving to attain high positions of leadership in government (Zebrowitz & Montepare, 2005) and industry (Rule & Ambady, 2008)."³
Which is fine if you're femboymaxxing I guess

Secondly, it is a sign of physical formidability which then links it to leadership, the current evolutionary hypothesis being that canine tooth size and ICW is positively correlated with a wider mouth and big dimorphic canines (thus mouth) correlate with male physical combat and dominance in primates ⁴˒⁵
View attachment 3177444
Indeed, mouth width positively correlates with perceived leadership ability and actual leadership performance in humans⁶

some cagefuel I stumbled upon in a study analyzing the Facial Anthropometric Data of Korean Pilots for Oxygen Mask Design and pilots mog civilians for some reason (they just look the part)⁷ @mug



Disproving the usual copes :

JUST GET MSE BRO, first of all, only a few orthos provide it ( https://www.moonmse.com/distributors-1 ), it's expensive af (quoted 16k USD by Dr. Sheri Salartash), it can fail and the expansion could be asymmetric with 0 evidence of it leading to an increase in lip width, let alone in adults unless you have some death tier palate width or go way overboard and bugsbunnymax like this nigga

View attachment 3178079


THEN JUST GET SARPE LOL : This is the GOAT Ramieri in person here :
View attachment 3178063


LIP DEVICE :

like @Angutoid 's

My New Mouth Widening Invention Without Smile Lines

So this is how it looks like: I could make it more complicated but i wanted it to cost less so every narrow mouthcel could benefit. Wear this overnight!!! You need 2 more things (1 if you don't care about smile lines) to use with this: A rubber band (Smaller the size more the pressure is)...

looksmax.org

or the ones displayed in @RecessedPrettyboy 's thread

Mouth Widening Appliances

Mouth Widening Appliance 3d models for 3d printing Now before someone asks How do I print it if I dont have a 3d printer? Just go to a 3d printing service store and print it. simple and shoudnt be expensive at all Here are the different sizes: 7cm: https://www.tinkercad.com/things/2ZfCaY9upiy...

looksmax.org

or FacialFlex's https://www.craniorehab.com/Facial-Flex-Adult-Microstomia-Prevention-Appliance.html

Well, first of all, none of them are arguing for their efficacy , so i'll try to play devil's advocate :

Potential argument 1 : Lip tribe bro

View attachment 3178292
Well that's what ends up happening :

View attachment 3178293
View attachment 3178294

Potential argument 2 : Facial Flex

Well that one is specifically designed to prevent and manage microstomia i.e. we're talking about scarring or fibrosis here (= for it not to relapse) not to expand normal healthy tissue @Pendejo

Potential argument 3 : Anecdotal

People believe many things like iris color changes due to a raw meat diet @slavicpsycho, carbohydrate abstinence leading to optical superpowers @Never Get Up , mewing to increase lefort 3 area projection but these are "relatively" harmless except Bonesmashing stop it bro @Zeta @Clavicular

A too strong or improper lip expansion session could cause damage to the delicate tissues of the lips, tearing of the fragile mucous membranes which could lead to infections, muscle strain which would cause chronic fatigue or spasms, nerve irritation, it could have an impact on the alignment of the teeth, the health of gums, etc. So many unkown and very undesirable consequences that simple anecdotes can't logically outweigh.

What the fuck to do then ?

Commissuroplasty
I'm sure you're already vaguely familiar with this procedure, the main goal of this procedure is to maintain lip competence, it's a very quick and effective surgery though : it doesn't need complexe techniques.

You can do it in 2 ways⁸ :
The simplest being : Buccal mucosal advancement


The alternative being : Myomucosal advancement flap


OK BRO but who tf performs it bro even and how much ?
SPAIN : https://mallorcamedicalgroup.com/en/procedures/plastic-surgery/facial-surgery/comisuroplasty/
Price : 1k€ to 2k€
TEXAS : https://planoplasticsurgery.com/lip-commissuroplasty/
Price : Get a quote yourself lil bro
I know Eppley used to perform it, he wrote on it extensively on his blog but he stopped doing it, he would be charging 800k USD anyway

Makeup
I couldn't find any makeup tutorial that does this specifically, JFL at foids btw, muh looksmax gender, they always just increase lip vertical size like some retards actual

Just imagine for me that you're doing a commissuroplasty but with makeup
You're gonna need first concelear for two reasons :
1- to blur the actual natural edges of your mouth
2- to create a fake new vermillion border

An eyeshadow brush :
to blend-in the concealer

Lip liner :
You're gonna overline your lips slightly past the natural commissure and extend the line just beyoned the natural edge but don't do overdo it to avoid pufferfishmaxxing

Lipstick as cherry chapstick wouldn't be able to fill :
You're gonna fill in your newly accquired vermillion with a matching lipstick, matte lipstick would work better since it'll make it look sharper, you want lighter in the center and darker in the outer corners to give a gradient effect, that will enhance the width visually, you'll understand easily if you have any drawing/coloring background

Optional : Highlighter on the cupid's bow and just below the upper lip to draw the attention to the center en enhance that gradient effect.
Contouring to further accentuate the shadow you setup with the concealer

Follow some "HOW TO GET BIGGER LIPS" tutorials on youtube to get the gist but only apply it to lateral commissures since they all jsut increase the height of the vermillions.

OR Moustache obviously :





¹Stephan, C.N., & Henneberg, M. (2003). Predicting mouth width from inter-canine width — a 75% rule. Journal of Forensic Sciences, 48, 725–727.
²Hildebrandt, K.A., & Fitzgerald, H.E. (1979). Facial feature determinants of perceived infant attractiveness. Infant Behavior & Development, 2, 329–339.
³Livingston, R.W., & Pearce, N.A. (2009). The teddy-bear effect does having a baby face benefit black chief executive officers? Psychological Science, 20, 1229–1236.
⁴Harvey, P.H., Kavanagh, M., & Clutton-Brock, T.H. (1978). Sexual dimorphism in primate teeth. Journal of Zoology, 186, 475–485.
⁵Plavcan, J.M., & van Schaik, C.P. (1992). Intrasexual competition and canine dimorphism in anthropoid primates. American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 87, 461–477.
⁶Re, D. E., & Rule, N. O. (2016). The big man has a big mouth: Mouth width correlates with perceived leadership ability and actual leadership performance.
⁷https://www.researchgate.net/public..._Data_of_Korean_Pilots_for_Oxygen_Mask_Design
⁸Parsel, S. M., & Winters, R. D. (2020). Commissuroplasty. Operative Techniques in Otolaryngology, 31(1), 33–37.

Spoiler: Tags

@Clavicular @Alexanderr @TechnoBoss @Jason Voorhees @truthhurts @greycel @sb23 @Haseeb @truthhurts @PeakIncels @UZB_Strebl @MA_ascender @SubhumanForever @kaligula567 @enchanted_elixir @Blackgymmax @Rea @HarrierDuBois

Quick edit : the 1.6 with alar base is a shit measurement for ideal lip width cause ala size isn't a key feature in aesthetic cause then you would just get alarplasty with a shit mouth width but that will look like pure dogshit

High effort and useful, good work as always man

 

[alurmo]

High iq botb worthy thread tbh

Whats ur next thread gonna be abt OP

 

[Haseeb]

Didnt see ur original tag, just stickied it and will move it to BOTB in a day or two

Ayy congrats @NZb6Air

 

[NZb6Air]

Ayy congrats @NZb6Air

thanks bro

High iq botb worthy thread tbh

Whats ur next thread gonna be abt OP

i have some glimmers, they're too vague to say, i save them, for example this thread was gonna be about something else entirely; what are you interested in?