MSE + FM is probably not very good and just a glorified version of regular facepulling

[patricknotstar]

Tbh it is saddens me to make this post but MSE + FM is probably not very good. There have been loads of false information put forth by orthodontists regarding MSE and its capabilities along with other people's false claims who have gotten MSE and its effects. (@varbrah who claimed 5 mm forward growth while only pulling for 8 hours a day while never providing the xrays he claimed he got JFL)

The first blow to MSE was realizing it was not a really bone borne like claimed, and that it is just a regular tooth borne puller (basically the effect as the og @CopeAndRope puller)

Comparison of two maxillary protraction protocols: tooth-borne versus bone-anchored protraction facemask treatment - Progress in Orthodontics

Background Protraction facemask has been advocated for treatment of class III malocclusion with maxillary deficiency. Studies using tooth-borne rapid palatal expansion (RPE) appliance as anchorage have experienced side effects such as forward movement of the maxillary molars, excessive...

progressinorthodontics.springeropen.com

Here is a study done on facemask with RME, and the FM is attached to the hyrax. 2.9 mm of forward growth was noted after treatment

They also did a bone anchored modified hyrax group using mini implants just like MSE, and pulled from the same location MSE pulls from.

Guess how much forward growth the "bone anchored" group got?






3mm, brutal





so adding "bone anchorage" gave .1 more mm jfl, other studies that are truly bone anchored, such as BAMP use 1/3 of the force of tooth borne facepullers, and get double the forward growth.

This was the first downfall of MSE + FM, secondly it was the once again falsely propagated idea that MSE opens up the circummaxillary sutures, and the disarticulation of the sutures allows for much faster protraction.

Effects of rapid maxillary expansion on the cranial and circummaxillary sutures

The aim of this study was to determine whether the orthopedic forces of rapid maxillary expansion cause significant quantitative changes in the cranial and the circummaxillary sutures.Twenty patients (mean age, 12.3 ± 1.9 years) who required rapid ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Rapid maxillary expansion produced significant width increases in the intermaxillary, internasal, maxillonasal, frontomaxillary, and frontonasal sutures, whereas the frontozygomatic, zygomaticomaxillary, zygomaticotemporal, and pterygomaxillary sutures showed nonsignificant changes.

Basically palate expansion does jack shit for the circummaxillary sutures (the sutures where forward growth is generated at), there are also many studies that contemplate if palate expansion even aids in maxilla protraction, and while still controversial it is leaning towards the side that it does not.

The effects of maxillary protraction therapy with or without rapid palatal expansion: a prospective, randomized clinical trial - PubMed

The results of this continuing 5-year clinical trial indicate that early facemask therapy, with or without palatal expansion, is effective to correct skeletal Class III malocclusions.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

So now, MSE doesn't do shit to open the sutural system + it is tooth borne, so it really has no advantages over a puller like CopeAndRope's, but any form of tooth borne protraction is really shit for anyone over the age of 13 if there isn't an actual underbite present


It was a good run boyos, but it seems the holy grail of looksmaxxing has yet to be found

disclaimer: mse is still okay in niche scenarios like if u have a generally narrow face, but if u don't, you wouldnt benefit from maxilla widening that much, and facepulling isnt viable, so there would be really no reason to get it unless it was for breathing, esp considering when u have to diastemamaxx for several months

The cosmetic benefits are meme tier unless u have a severely narrow palate

 

[Mongrelcel]

The cosmetic benefits are meme tier unless u have a severely narrow palate

Cheebkones? Fwhr??

 

[Deleted member 4790]

why did the mandible shift back in the first study? Help me understand maestro.

View attachment 979085

We should see case by case but the cause is always that the mandible was moved forward due to the occlusal interferences when the pre lateral xray was taken.

 

[spark]

We should see case by case but the cause is always that the mandible was moved forward due to the occlusal interferences when the pre lateral xray was taken.

You said once that bollards can be used with a fm. Why would that be a good idea? Wouldn't it be better to just put a lot more load onto the bollards?

 

[Deleted member 4790]

You said once that bollards can be used with a fm. Why would that be a good idea? Wouldn't it be better to just put a lot more load onto the bollards?

I wonder where the limit is without pulling the plates out of the bone

 

[spark]

I wonder where the limit is without pulling the plates out of the bone

Have you seen this case? This woman used 10 elastics on one side 5 on the other (without any miniplates) and apparently even fixed her asymmetry.

 

[ascentium]

Cheebkones? Fwhr??

 

[Mongrelcel]

I wonder where the limit is without pulling the plates out of the bone

would you be willing to install bollards?

 

[Deleted member 4790]

would you be willing to install bollards?

I already do, but in the context of a reasonable treatment plan.

 

[Mongrelcel]

I already do, but in the context of a reasonable treatment plan.

Elaborate? I was thinking in the context of facepulling

 

[antiantifa]

I don't understand why use all these appliances to replicate natural mewing, JFL at this absolute zero IQ bullshit. You can easily provide 3-6 kg of sagittal force with the tongue.

 

[antiantifa]

Seriously what can all those expansion procedures even do compared to mewing:

Same weight and height btw.

 

[AscendingHero]

Seriously what can all those expansion procedures even do compared to mewing:

Same weight and height btw.

LOL TGW LURKER SPOTTED




THIS IS AUXILLARY JFL with your mewing cope

 

[Deleted member 4790]

Elaborate? I was thinking in the context of facepulling

Mainly completing a supervised orthodontic treatment.

 

[noprogressno]

I also think MSE wouldn't work for protraction because the arms will bend before the bone can even start to move.Arm wires can't be more resistant than bone.The people who make MSE,when they are customizing it for each individual patient they bend the wires just by hand without even heating.But maybe this type of marpe could work??? Any opinion? It has 2 additional screws so maybe it can give additional anchor without wire bending/dental movement ???

 

[Mongrelcel]

I also think MSE wouldn't work for protraction because the arms will bend before the bone can even start to move.Arm wires can't be more resistant than bone.The people who make MSE,when they are customizing it for each individual patient they bend the wires just by hand without even heating.But maybe this type of marpe could work??? Any opinion? It has 2 additional screws so maybe it can give additional anchor without wire bending/dental movement ???

Afaik the arms are just for placement really. The pulling force is being applies on the MSE itself, the part thats screwed in

 

[noprogressno]

Afaik the arms are just for placement really. The pulling force is being applies on the MSE itself, the part thats screwed in

It doesn't really.It doesn't pull from the anchor point.Because the arms can easily bend and cause dental movement instead.I highly doubt the force even reaches the anchor point at all.If anyone is getting 2-3 mm of expansion its just dental movement not skeletal.If there was a design however where you could directly be able to pull from the anchor point without teeth getting involved in it in any way maybe there could be some skeletal movement.In theory though...

 

[damnit]

How does it stack up against sarpe for mere palatal expansion (upper crossbite), what aput relapse etc...

 

[noprogressno]

How does it stack up against sarpe for mere palatal expansion (upper crossbite), what aput relapse etc...

But any palatal expansion has a risk for relapse anyways...

 

[ascentium]

How does it stack up against sarpe for mere palatal expansion (upper crossbite), what aput relapse etc...

Much better

 

[AsGoodAsItGets]

@SPFromNY914 hey SP, had you read this? If yes, why did you decide to go ahead with this? Also are there any good orthotropists in Kerala? (I’m here atm) (Seen a fellow of Mews in Kochi on the site)

 

[Deleted member 8758]

I also think MSE wouldn't work for protraction because the arms will bend before the bone can even start to move.Arm wires can't be more resistant than bone.The people who make MSE,when they are customizing it for each individual patient they bend the wires just by hand without even heating.But maybe this type of marpe could work??? Any opinion? It has 2 additional screws so maybe it can give additional anchor without wire bending/dental movement ???

I've never seen a marpe with screws on the arms, what was the reasoning?

 

[Deleted member 4790]

I also think MSE wouldn't work for protraction because the arms will bend before the bone can even start to move.Arm wires can't be more resistant than bone.The people who make MSE,when they are customizing it for each individual patient they bend the wires just by hand without even heating.But maybe this type of marpe could work??? Any opinion? It has 2 additional screws so maybe it can give additional anchor without wire bending/dental movement ???

Yes, this design is better for that, but it also applies the expansion force on the molars, so they might be tilted or even pushed out of the bone

 

[N1c]

Seriously what can all those expansion procedures even do compared to mewing:

Same weight and height btw.

How old are you?

 

[SPFromNY914]

@SPFromNY914 hey SP, had you read this? If yes, why did you decide to go ahead with this? Also are there any good orthotropists in Kerala? (I’m here atm) (Seen a fellow of Mews in Kochi on the site)

Bruh idk about orthotropists in Kerala. I grew up most my life in NY but I grew up there in Kerala for like 5 years. And I went with MSE+Facemask because it's better for my health long term than rushing and getting jaw surgery. Also MSE can help my mma training a lot I figured. If I don't get much asthetic benefits from it I really wouldn't care. That's why there's beardmaxxing and infraoribital implants in the future haha.

 

[noprogressno]

Yes, this design is better for that, but it also applies the expansion force on the molars, so they might be tilted or even pushed out of the bone

I see.It seems like there is a disadvantage to every design with MSE :/ By the way the person who got this type of MSE wasn't able to open the suture with normal MSE so he went for a second round with corticopuncture with this design and now succesfully has a diastema.Maybe the additional force this design got from the molars contributed to that.Or its all because the first MSE already lowered the resistance so that the second MARPE did what it was supposed to do

 

[AsGoodAsItGets]

Bruh idk about orthotropists in Kerala. I grew up most my life in NY but I grew up there in Kerala for like 5 years. And I went with MSE+Facemask because it's better for my health long term than rushing and getting jaw surgery. Also MSE can help my mma training a lot I figured. If I don't get much asthetic benefits from it I really wouldn't care. That's why there's beardmaxxing and infraoribital implants in the future haha.

Got it, thanks!

 

[mvp2v1]

Well what about MSE+BAMP then? sergio said one could use both BAMP and a FM at the same time.

what is bamp

 

[mvp2v1]

i definitely got protraction, my ortho showed me my Upper incisors before and after and they moved a lot. I wore at like 20 hrs a day on average, my ortho wants me to slow it down to 12 hrs because ive gotten too much protraction. 8mm with mse

too much protraction? (forward pull?) yet you say its not what you expected??? Which facemask are you using? Were you performing any exercises along with it: thumbpulling, hardmewing, chintucking? How much forward did you get? how much did you want? why would you stop?

 

[mvp2v1]

tooth borne protraction doesnt offer any aesthetic benefit like skeletal does, anytime u use a tooth borne puller u will get a combo of both, primarily tooth movement

This seems to contradict what I read everywhere which is that the arms are cut off early and thus the pull is fully on the maxilla.

 

[mvp2v1]

no the midface protraction didnt really do much aesthetic benefit, i have to slow down because my overjet is getting worse.

I must be a total idiot, or he is. if you expand too fast the mandible cannot adapt this is exactly what one would expect and plan for with IMDO...

 

[Marco Polo]

The holy grail is BSSO CCW with sliding Genioplasty

 

[mvp2v1]

The holy grail is BSSO CCW with sliding Genioplasty

Show before and after. chances are its not. holy grail impacts the entire skull. If your holy Grail only changes unique isolated parts of the skull without reverberating changes its just a cope.

 

[nobodyspecial369]

bump