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I'm not sure how this post will be received but I thought I'd share my experience and maybe it'll be helpful/useful to someone. Warning: LONG post.
About 2 weeks ago (or maybe less), I mentioned I was going to see an orthotropist. Saw him today and it was an interesting visit.
He wanted to know why I would see an orthotropist and why him. I mentioned that I knew about mewing and that he was the only one in Western Canada that was listed as an orthotropist. I was upfront that a major part of the reason I was in his office is because of looks improvement. The other part was health but my emphasis on that wasn't as much as it was on looks. He said that he's actually not the only one - there are a few others in Alberta (like 5 or something) and 2-3 in BC (where I'm from). He hinted that they were all keeping a low profile because the various orthodontic associations/licensing boards were targetting them. So that's probably why I couldn't find any closer to me - they were just keeping their heads low. He's also not happy about the NYT article taking a cheap shot at incels instead of actually trying to progress science or open up debate.
I asked him if he would be able to help me given that I'm in my mid-thirties. This is the surprising part. Apparently, there are people in their mid to late thirties getting help from him and the other orthotropists with success and without surgery or other invasive techniques. He himself was able to expand some of his adult patients by up to 10-12mm laterally. And it turns out he had a scary bout with sleep apnea where he stopped breathing for about a minute. After this incident, he started treating himself with the help of a removable expander. He managed to split his own mid-palatal suture just by mewing with a removable expander. By the way, he did that when he was around 60 years old. (He said it was really painful though - probably because he forced the split too quickly with the expander.)
He measured my mouth, teeth, angles, etc. He had me do some breathing exercises to test my condition. He had me pushed against one nostril to close it and then to breathe with the other nostril. Then repeat on the other side. He was listening to the difficulty of my nose breathing. For me, one nostril had an easier time. The other nostril sounded raspy-like. I had a really difficult time with nose-breathing regardless. To clear up my nose, he had me do some exercises. The first exercise was to do "nerd neck" and breathe through the nose. Then to chin tuck and breathe through the nose. I didn't feel a difference between the two. So he had me breathe through the nose a few times normally, and after about 4-5 breaths, I was to hold it in, seal my lips, and pinch my nose. He counted how long I could hold my breath. I held it for about 40 secs. He said people who were in really bad condition and prime for sleep apnea generally can only hold it for about 10 seconds. The next exercise was to do the exact same thing again but this time, rotate my shoulders and my head from side to side while sitting. Sort of like how children would move around when they're bored. Once I couldn't hold in the breath, then I would stop. I did fine again but this time and there was more saliva in my mouth. He mentioned that it should also make my eyes water a bit. Something to do with creating more C02 or other. Finally, he had me stand against a wall and do the McKenzie chin tuck. He then asked me to breathe through my nose and this time, it was all cleared up.
Based on this stuff, he said I actually wasn't too bad. Unfortunately, I don't remember my numbers. But basically, it's not over. There's hope for this boyo. Also, he said I should be really glad that I didn't get any extractions when I was younger other than one wisdom tooth. TBH, I actually wanted braces when I was a teen - begged my parents for it, but all the orthodontists said I needed extractions and my parents said no. Silver lining, hindsight, and all.
Unfortunately, he didn't want to treat me. I was a little disappointed but I understood. He didn't specifically state why but based on the conversation, I think it was a combination of factors:
a) My condition wasn't bad enough. The people he helps are in much worse condition than me.
b) He might've felt that I would be a "lazy" patient because I didn't sound desperate enough. As most of you know, orthotropic treatment is like 20% doctor and 80% yourself. The best results come from patients who are so desperate that they really hard mew and really stick to the prescribed treatment plan.
c) I was probably not fan-boy enough. I probably should've ramped up my excitement instead of being cautious. But you know, I wasn't sure if he would've pushed treatment just to make a buck off of me. But given that they're all trying to lay low a little bit, I might not have been the best patient to take on. From his perspective, if I didn't have good results in a few years, he might find it a bit risky if I decide to complain to the orthodontic board. I wouldn't do that, but he doesn't know that. They're already watching their backs so I understand if this was part of the reason.
However, he did offer me three treatment plans that he said would work. But beyond those, he doesn't want to take me on like his other orthotropic patients. Based on these treatment plans, it sounds like they're more like "instant solutions." That is, within a few short months or maybe even year or so, I'll see definite results. So c) above is probably a very big factor in his decision to reject me as a patient. That or maybe I'm reading too much into it all. Who knows! But anyway, here are the three treatment options:
1) Removable expander for lateral expansion.
2) There's another one that's like MSE but more screws into the skull, hooks on the teeth, etc. Also, it's only for lateral expansion. I don't remember what it's called. Mapp? Grappa? Maybe someone here will know.
3) Jaw surgery for instant results. He pointed out that surgery is going to be very invasive and could have future complications.
I rejected the surgery one right off the bat. I honestly don't want surgery. I've had surgery twice for non-cosmetic reasons in the past and years later, you'll discover problems and will need to go back under the knife or just live with the problems. So surgery is off the table for me.
Nice guy, even after all this, he gave me an "unofficial" treatment plan. As you know, there's a reason Mike Mew cannot officially endorse hard mewing due to the inherent liabilities involved. All orthotropists just need to be really really careful right now. But this doc gave me a nudge nudge wink wink type of thing and suggested I continue hard mewing "since it's been working for you" (I had mentioned that I started hard mewing in March and I'm seeing some small results.) If after a year or so and I have significant lateral expansion, he suggested I return and he'll make an expander for my lower jaw. This part needs an explanation...
So apparently, when you go to an orthotropist, the typical treatment plan they give has two stages. The first stage fixes the maxilla & palate. The focus is on expanding the palate laterally and pulling/pushing the maxilla forwards. Facepulling with a hockey mask type device is one of the ways they do this. It all depends on what's wrong with your face. Each patient is different so treatment plans do vary from person to person. For example, it's way easier if the patient already has an underbite or a jaw that juts out. But, there are side effects to this treatment: tilting of the teeth, a "recessed chin" look (and it's even more emphasised if you already have a recessed chin to begin with), the two front teeth will part and you'll get a gap in between them, and your front teeth won't "meet." There will be a space between the upper and lower teeth when you try to bring your teeth together. Chewing will be challenging to say the least. Part two will have them move your lower jaw to align it with the upper jaw. There's a removable expander device for the lower jaw. They fit this for you and basically force your jaw into the correct position. Over time, you get used to it and you keep it there. Meanwhile, your jaw slowly moves into position. In other words, during phase 1 of the treatment, you'll look like a sub-3. Phase 2 makes you look beautiful. It goes without saying that this takes years.
As for my mewing "treatment," he said for the lower jaw, just force it to jut out as I mew. It will naturally move into place. Lastly, he wants me to do mouth taping when I sleep. I was scared, because my nose gets plugged up every morning and I literally cannot breath from my nose. But he said to do those exercises he showed me and I should be fine. He also provided some resources for breathing and mewing. Some of it should look familiar to you guys:
1) buteykoclinic.com
2) facefocused.com
3) orthotropics.com
4) tonguethrust.com
Lastly, they took photos of my teeth, mouth, face, and side profile.
So if you live in the Calgary area, know that there are 2-3 orthotropists in Calgary, 1 in Red Deer, and 1 more somewhere that I've forgotten already. There are 2-3 in Vancouver but they might be too scared to help.
Cost of the visit: $153 CAD for 2 units of time. Uninsurable, so out of pocket. Actually, I'm not 100% sure, but from what I understand, 1 unit of dental time is 15 mins. So 2 units = 30 mins. But, my visit was an hour long because we talked a lot about the profession, mewing, the Mews, etc. If this is true, then he's a good bloke for not overcharging me.
Anyway, I hope this helps someone!
Edit: grammar & typos
About 2 weeks ago (or maybe less), I mentioned I was going to see an orthotropist. Saw him today and it was an interesting visit.
He wanted to know why I would see an orthotropist and why him. I mentioned that I knew about mewing and that he was the only one in Western Canada that was listed as an orthotropist. I was upfront that a major part of the reason I was in his office is because of looks improvement. The other part was health but my emphasis on that wasn't as much as it was on looks. He said that he's actually not the only one - there are a few others in Alberta (like 5 or something) and 2-3 in BC (where I'm from). He hinted that they were all keeping a low profile because the various orthodontic associations/licensing boards were targetting them. So that's probably why I couldn't find any closer to me - they were just keeping their heads low. He's also not happy about the NYT article taking a cheap shot at incels instead of actually trying to progress science or open up debate.
I asked him if he would be able to help me given that I'm in my mid-thirties. This is the surprising part. Apparently, there are people in their mid to late thirties getting help from him and the other orthotropists with success and without surgery or other invasive techniques. He himself was able to expand some of his adult patients by up to 10-12mm laterally. And it turns out he had a scary bout with sleep apnea where he stopped breathing for about a minute. After this incident, he started treating himself with the help of a removable expander. He managed to split his own mid-palatal suture just by mewing with a removable expander. By the way, he did that when he was around 60 years old. (He said it was really painful though - probably because he forced the split too quickly with the expander.)
He measured my mouth, teeth, angles, etc. He had me do some breathing exercises to test my condition. He had me pushed against one nostril to close it and then to breathe with the other nostril. Then repeat on the other side. He was listening to the difficulty of my nose breathing. For me, one nostril had an easier time. The other nostril sounded raspy-like. I had a really difficult time with nose-breathing regardless. To clear up my nose, he had me do some exercises. The first exercise was to do "nerd neck" and breathe through the nose. Then to chin tuck and breathe through the nose. I didn't feel a difference between the two. So he had me breathe through the nose a few times normally, and after about 4-5 breaths, I was to hold it in, seal my lips, and pinch my nose. He counted how long I could hold my breath. I held it for about 40 secs. He said people who were in really bad condition and prime for sleep apnea generally can only hold it for about 10 seconds. The next exercise was to do the exact same thing again but this time, rotate my shoulders and my head from side to side while sitting. Sort of like how children would move around when they're bored. Once I couldn't hold in the breath, then I would stop. I did fine again but this time and there was more saliva in my mouth. He mentioned that it should also make my eyes water a bit. Something to do with creating more C02 or other. Finally, he had me stand against a wall and do the McKenzie chin tuck. He then asked me to breathe through my nose and this time, it was all cleared up.
Based on this stuff, he said I actually wasn't too bad. Unfortunately, I don't remember my numbers. But basically, it's not over. There's hope for this boyo. Also, he said I should be really glad that I didn't get any extractions when I was younger other than one wisdom tooth. TBH, I actually wanted braces when I was a teen - begged my parents for it, but all the orthodontists said I needed extractions and my parents said no. Silver lining, hindsight, and all.
Unfortunately, he didn't want to treat me. I was a little disappointed but I understood. He didn't specifically state why but based on the conversation, I think it was a combination of factors:
a) My condition wasn't bad enough. The people he helps are in much worse condition than me.
b) He might've felt that I would be a "lazy" patient because I didn't sound desperate enough. As most of you know, orthotropic treatment is like 20% doctor and 80% yourself. The best results come from patients who are so desperate that they really hard mew and really stick to the prescribed treatment plan.
c) I was probably not fan-boy enough. I probably should've ramped up my excitement instead of being cautious. But you know, I wasn't sure if he would've pushed treatment just to make a buck off of me. But given that they're all trying to lay low a little bit, I might not have been the best patient to take on. From his perspective, if I didn't have good results in a few years, he might find it a bit risky if I decide to complain to the orthodontic board. I wouldn't do that, but he doesn't know that. They're already watching their backs so I understand if this was part of the reason.
However, he did offer me three treatment plans that he said would work. But beyond those, he doesn't want to take me on like his other orthotropic patients. Based on these treatment plans, it sounds like they're more like "instant solutions." That is, within a few short months or maybe even year or so, I'll see definite results. So c) above is probably a very big factor in his decision to reject me as a patient. That or maybe I'm reading too much into it all. Who knows! But anyway, here are the three treatment options:
1) Removable expander for lateral expansion.
2) There's another one that's like MSE but more screws into the skull, hooks on the teeth, etc. Also, it's only for lateral expansion. I don't remember what it's called. Mapp? Grappa? Maybe someone here will know.
3) Jaw surgery for instant results. He pointed out that surgery is going to be very invasive and could have future complications.
I rejected the surgery one right off the bat. I honestly don't want surgery. I've had surgery twice for non-cosmetic reasons in the past and years later, you'll discover problems and will need to go back under the knife or just live with the problems. So surgery is off the table for me.
Nice guy, even after all this, he gave me an "unofficial" treatment plan. As you know, there's a reason Mike Mew cannot officially endorse hard mewing due to the inherent liabilities involved. All orthotropists just need to be really really careful right now. But this doc gave me a nudge nudge wink wink type of thing and suggested I continue hard mewing "since it's been working for you" (I had mentioned that I started hard mewing in March and I'm seeing some small results.) If after a year or so and I have significant lateral expansion, he suggested I return and he'll make an expander for my lower jaw. This part needs an explanation...
So apparently, when you go to an orthotropist, the typical treatment plan they give has two stages. The first stage fixes the maxilla & palate. The focus is on expanding the palate laterally and pulling/pushing the maxilla forwards. Facepulling with a hockey mask type device is one of the ways they do this. It all depends on what's wrong with your face. Each patient is different so treatment plans do vary from person to person. For example, it's way easier if the patient already has an underbite or a jaw that juts out. But, there are side effects to this treatment: tilting of the teeth, a "recessed chin" look (and it's even more emphasised if you already have a recessed chin to begin with), the two front teeth will part and you'll get a gap in between them, and your front teeth won't "meet." There will be a space between the upper and lower teeth when you try to bring your teeth together. Chewing will be challenging to say the least. Part two will have them move your lower jaw to align it with the upper jaw. There's a removable expander device for the lower jaw. They fit this for you and basically force your jaw into the correct position. Over time, you get used to it and you keep it there. Meanwhile, your jaw slowly moves into position. In other words, during phase 1 of the treatment, you'll look like a sub-3. Phase 2 makes you look beautiful. It goes without saying that this takes years.
As for my mewing "treatment," he said for the lower jaw, just force it to jut out as I mew. It will naturally move into place. Lastly, he wants me to do mouth taping when I sleep. I was scared, because my nose gets plugged up every morning and I literally cannot breath from my nose. But he said to do those exercises he showed me and I should be fine. He also provided some resources for breathing and mewing. Some of it should look familiar to you guys:
1) buteykoclinic.com
2) facefocused.com
3) orthotropics.com
4) tonguethrust.com
Lastly, they took photos of my teeth, mouth, face, and side profile.
So if you live in the Calgary area, know that there are 2-3 orthotropists in Calgary, 1 in Red Deer, and 1 more somewhere that I've forgotten already. There are 2-3 in Vancouver but they might be too scared to help.
Cost of the visit: $153 CAD for 2 units of time. Uninsurable, so out of pocket. Actually, I'm not 100% sure, but from what I understand, 1 unit of dental time is 15 mins. So 2 units = 30 mins. But, my visit was an hour long because we talked a lot about the profession, mewing, the Mews, etc. If this is true, then he's a good bloke for not overcharging me.
Anyway, I hope this helps someone!
Edit: grammar & typos
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