New bone-borne appliance: Facegenics Maxillary Expander (FME) installed on patient

[Tasty17]

 

[Tasty17]

The device is not tooth-borne. It’s attached directly to bone. The expansion is fully skeletal unlike MSE. I see this mogging MSE results to oblivion.

 

[Tasty17]

It’s called Facegenics Maxillary Expander, the dude got the name wrong.

 

[Giorgio]

@NegativeNorwood

 

[Giorgio]

@Tasty17 who's offering this device?
also, there already are fully skeletal devices such as the TPD or the Power Expander

also, is MSE really tooth-borne, or is the teeth movement the result of not having done a surgical assist and relying on the device alone (or with corticopuncture) to split the suture?

@NegativeNorwood I've heard it mentioned (from some ortho on YouTube don't remember exactly) that the arms attaching to the molars are mostly for alignment and placement, and not to actually direct any force

I think I will contact the german EASE clinic and ask them this directly

 

[Tasty17]

@Tasty17 who's offering this device?
also, there already are fully skeletal devices such as the TPD or the Power Expander

also, is MSE really tooth-borne, or is the teeth movement the result of not having done a surgical assist and relying on the device alone (or with corticopuncture) to split the suture?

@NegativeNorwood I've heard it mentioned (from some ortho on YouTube don't remember exactly) that the arms attaching to the molars are mostly for alignment and placement, and not to actually direct any force

I think I will contact the german EASE clinic and ask them this directly

MSE is also attached to teeth. Dr. Kasey Li said that from case-studies, he saw that MSE delivers roughly 50% tooth expansion and 50% bone expansion. Thus, you have to expand more with MSE than with devices like TPD. Also, the TPD seems weak and it is not screwed directly into the bone like the FME which might results to one side being expanded more than the other, thus causing asymmetries. Your doctor can request the device from: https://facegenics.com/. We have to see more case-studies though to be able to make concluding statements. So far in theory this seems the best thing on the market right now.

 

[Tasty17]

Follow up to my post:

Check out the PDF document by Facegenics in the attachment list.

 

[Tasty17]

@Tasty17 who's offering this device?
also, there already are fully skeletal devices such as the TPD or the Power Expander

also, is MSE really tooth-borne, or is the teeth movement the result of not having done a surgical assist and relying on the device alone (or with corticopuncture) to split the suture?

@NegativeNorwood I've heard it mentioned (from some ortho on YouTube don't remember exactly) that the arms attaching to the molars are mostly for alignment and placement, and not to actually direct any force

I think I will contact the german EASE clinic and ask them this directly

From their PDF...

 

[5.5psl]

What's the difference between FME and MSE ?

 

[Tasty17]

What's the difference between FME and MSE ?

Read previous posts and check the PDF for more.

 

[5.5psl]

Read previous posts and check the PDF for more.

Pdf is way too long I have my assignments to complete I ain't reading all of that

 

[Giorgio]

MSE is also attached to teeth. Dr. Kasey Li said that from case-studies, he saw that MSE delivers roughly 50% tooth expansion and 50% bone expansion. Thus, you have to expand more with MSE than with devices like TPD. Also, the TPD seems weak and it is not screwed directly into the bone like the FME which might results to one side being expanded more than the other, thus causing asymmetries. Your doctor can request the device from: https://facegenics.com/. We have to see more case-studies though to be able to make concluding statements. So far in theory this seems the best thing on the market right now.

but were the studies done with surgical assist? makes a big difference

Your doctor can request the device from: https://facegenics.com/

the thing is that it's a huge problem for me to find actual maxfacs or orthos that provide palate expansion at all in Europe

the website does not even have an email, so it's impossible to ask them for a list of providers already using their device either

 

[Tasty17]

but were the studies done with surgical assist? makes a big difference


the thing is that it's a huge problem for me to find actual maxfacs or orthos that provide palate expansion at all in Europe

the website does not even have an email, so it's impossible to ask them for a list of providers already using their device either

Yeah.

 

[PURE ARYAN GENETICS]

24 teeth
over for him will need round 2 tbh

but looks legit

 

[NegativeNorwood]

Looks extremely legit and well thought. Now we have to find orthos and surgeons that are familiar with it.

This smile or nothing @Giorgio

 

[ripcordgod1]

no maxilla expansion for those ugly ass yellow ass teeth

 

[jfbjfb]

The MSE arms are cut once the suture is split, so the actual tooth expansion is minimal.

However, I also think this design is superior. I reminds me of this other design that I will get installed on myself soon.

 

[Giorgio]

The MSE arms are cut once the suture is split, so the actual tooth expansion is minimal.

I know right?
I swear I've heard an ortho say in an online lecture once that the arms are there for placement and alignment only

I reminds me of this other design that I will get installed on myself soon

are you joking, not another Spanish expander
@NegativeNorwood are you seeing this shit

looks like there is a list of providers in the contacts section, amazing

Now we have to find orthos and surgeons that are familiar with it

the dude mentions in the post that he is the first one who got this, and it was from Dr. Ting himself - seems like they did this without surgical assist

we are better off sticking to Spanish devices and orthos
or the device @jfbjfb found, great find

I'll try to inquire about price, will report back

have you heard from @Nims recently?

 

[NegativeNorwood]

I know right?
I swear I've heard an ortho say in an online lecture once that the arms are there for placement and alignment only


are you joking, not another Spanish expander
@NegativeNorwood are you seeing this shit

looks like there is a list of providers in the contacts section, amazing


the dude mentions in the post that he is the first one who got this, and it was from Dr. Ting himself - seems like they did this without surgical assist

we are better off sticking to Spanish devices and orthos
or the device @jfbjfb found, great find

I'll try to inquire about price, will report back

have you heard from @Nims recently?

LMAO why are spanish orthos so blackpilled? What sun, tapas and lack of pussy does to a mf smh, god bless this shithole

Agree with you overall.
No, haven't heard from him.

PS: daily reminder is either this

Or this

There's no middle ground

 

[jfbjfb]

LMAO why are spanish orthos so blackpilled? What sun, tapas and lack of pussy does to a mf smh, god bless this shithole

Agree with you overall.
No, haven't heard from him.

PS: daily reminder is either this

Or this

There's no middle ground

Based.

One of my orthos is so blackpilled that after taking a look at me she just said I clearly need bimax when half this forum would think otherwise.

I got quoted 1000€ for this modified MSE device, seems pretty cheap considering this also includes the treatment/work from the ortho.

 

[NegativeNorwood]

Based.

One of my orthos is so blackpilled that after taking a look at me she just said I clearly need bimax when half this forum would think otherwise.

I got quoted 1000€ for this modified MSE device, seems pretty cheap considering this also includes the treatment/work from the ortho.

Amazing.
How old are you and will you have the device placed with surgical assist?

 

[jfbjfb]

Amazing.
How old are you and will you have the device placed with surgical assist?

I am in my early-mid 20s. I do not know for sure if I will have to get surgery to split the suture. The ortho said they tend to do it but maybe with this modified MSE there is a greater change of splitting it naturally.

What expander are you guys getting?

 

[NegativeNorwood]

I am in my early-mid 20s. I do not know for sure if I will have to get surgery to split the suture. The ortho said they tend to do it but maybe with this modified MSE there is a greater change of splitting it naturally.

What expander are you guys getting?

I've read from Sergio-OMS, who is actually a surgeon, that palatal expansion without surgical assist in people over 16-17 yo is pointless

Surgical assist mse hit different

It looks like mike tyson socked me in the lower maxilla

looksmax.org

The 1000€ they quoted you is with the surgery cut included or just to place the device?

I'm 30 and planning to get palatal expansion, not sure where yet. My main options atm are Alfaro for palatal expansion and Juan Carlos Perez Varela as an ortho (he invented a palatal expansion device called Power Expander and lives near me). Atm I'm tight on money and will get an insurance to cover it in the future, but I'll have to wait at least 10-12 months after hiring it to have the chance of getting it covered AFAIK. The prices I've seen for SARPE where around 5000-9000€ btw.
Who is your ortho and where is located if you don't mind telling it?

 

[longjohnmong]

I've read from Sergio-OMS, who is actually a surgeon, that palatal expansion without surgical assist in people over 16-17 yo is pointless

Surgical assist mse hit different

It looks like mike tyson socked me in the lower maxilla

looksmax.org

The 1000€ they quoted you is with the surgery cut included or just to place the device?

I'm 30 and planning to get palatal expansion, not sure where yet. My main options atm are Alfaro for palatal expansion and Juan Carlos Perez Varela as an ortho (he invented a palatal expansion device called Power Expander and lives near me). Atm I'm tight on money and will get an insurance to cover it in the future, but I'll have to wait at least 10-12 months after hiring it to have the chance of getting it covered AFAIK. The prices I've seen for SARPE where around 5000-9000€ btw.
Who is your ortho and where is located if you don't mind telling it?

Does Alfaro do MSE or just SARPE?

 

[Tasty17]

The MSE arms are cut once the suture is split, so the actual tooth expansion is minimal.

However, I also think this design is superior. I reminds me of this other design that I will get installed on myself soon.

Thanks for explanation. Which one will you get installed?

 

[Fgsfds]

Where my niggas at you know who you are

We outchea

 

[Dystopian]

The MSE arms are cut once the suture is split, so the actual tooth expansion is minimal.

However, I also think this design is superior. I reminds me of this other design that I will get installed on myself soon.

MSE tooth expansion is not minimal jfl, I see the device on op mogging Mse to oblivion also because did the symmetry thing

I had mse myself at a young age

Looks extremely legit and well thought. Now we have to find orthos and surgeons that are familiar with it.

This smile or nothing @Giorgio

whats his name??

 

[Dystopian]

Does someone know what is the average palate width and what is a mogger one in numbers?

 

[jfbjfb]

I've read from Sergio-OMS, who is actually a surgeon, that palatal expansion without surgical assist in people over 16-17 yo is pointless

Surgical assist mse hit different

It looks like mike tyson socked me in the lower maxilla

looksmax.org

The 1000€ they quoted you is with the surgery cut included or just to place the device?

I'm 30 and planning to get palatal expansion, not sure where yet. My main options atm are Alfaro for palatal expansion and Juan Carlos Perez Varela as an ortho (he invented a palatal expansion device called Power Expander and lives near me). Atm I'm tight on money and will get an insurance to cover it in the future, but I'll have to wait at least 10-12 months after hiring it to have the chance of getting it covered AFAIK. The prices I've seen for SARPE where around 5000-9000€ btw.
Who is your ortho and where is located if you don't mind telling it?

True, it makes little sense to not go for surgical assist at this age. Many people split naturally but it is sort of playing the lotto.

The 1000€ includes everything, they never mentioned additional costs. What is expensive are the invisalign traces, they will charge me 5k for that.

SARPE for 5k or more seems extremely expensive tbh. The MSE device for example costs no more than 500€. The hours the ortho has to dedicate are almost none, and the surgical assist is done with a piezoelectric in the same dental clinic. Unless the price you mentioned is for the USA, I would see it as a scam here in Europe.

 

[jfbjfb]

The BAME, that is, the modified MSE I mentioned. My ortho has already installed it in some patients. He did not recommend me the original MSE due to the screw drag and all this stuff

Thanks for explanation. Which one will you get installed?

 

[jfbjfb]

Does someone know what is the average palate width and what is a mogger one in numbers?

According to Mike Mew, 37 mm of intermolar width would be the average nowadays in developed countries. A very narrow palate is at 30 mm. Our ancestors had it at the low 50s.

A mogger palate probably surpasses 45 mm. Look at Ronald Ead, he has a 47 mm intermolar width and that mouth looks like a huge cave. I do not even like it that wide for aesthetic purposes but it has some undeniable breathing/lifestyle benefits.

 

[NegativeNorwood]

whats his name??

Rodrigo Guirao

 

[Giorgio]

I am in my early-mid 20s. I do not know for sure if I will have to get surgery to split the suture. The ortho said they tend to do it but maybe with this modified MSE there is a greater change of splitting it naturally.

What expander are you guys getting?

you want a surgical assist regardless

do you want your nasal base to increase with nearly 1 to 1 ratio to the palatal expansion?
do you want an almost certain risk of asymmetry?
do you want lateral expansion of the cheekbones?

everybody (except a small % of people with zygo narrower than temples) needs a surgical assist

Does Alfaro do MSE or just SARPE?

SARPE

True, it makes little sense to not go for surgical assist at this age. Many people split naturally but it is sort of playing the lotto.

The 1000€ includes everything, they never mentioned additional costs. What is expensive are the invisalign traces, they will charge me 5k for that.

SARPE for 5k or more seems extremely expensive tbh. The MSE device for example costs no more than 500€. The hours the ortho has to dedicate are almost none, and the surgical assist is done with a piezoelectric in the same dental clinic. Unless the price you mentioned is for the USA, I would see it as a scam here in Europe.

bruh SARPE for 5k is on the low end

where the hell are you getting the whole thing done for 1k???!
please DM the ortho you work with, I wanna get in contact too

getting SARPE for under 5k (with the device and everything) would be literally life changing for me
do you have any plans for the lower jaw too?

 

[jfbjfb]

you want a surgical assist regardless

do you want your nasal base to increase with nearly 1 to 1 ratio to the palatal expansion?
do you want an almost certain risk of asymmetry?
do you want lateral expansion of the cheekbones?

everybody (except a small % of people with zygo narrower than temples) needs a surgical assist


SARPE


bruh SARPE for 5k is on the low end

where the hell are you getting the whole thing done for 1k???!
please DM the ortho you work with, I wanna get in contact too

getting SARPE for under 5k (with the device and everything) would be literally life changing for me
do you have any plans for the lower jaw too?

I do have wider temples than zygos, but I totally agree on the rest. Not worth the risk.

Guys, you will not believe my ortho. I went today to the clinic asking precisely how much my SARPE would cost. I thought it was at 1k since the budget included a miniscrew concept at 1k. Turns out this was for something else, like a damaged nerve where they will place a screw.

They told me they forgot to add the SARPE to the budget. At this point I was shaking thinking "screw that, they will ask me for 5k just like these looksmaxxers told me "

Man oh man, the receptionist checks the computer and tells me "we need to add 800€ for the SARPE, I am so sorry, it was my fault for forgetting it". JFL.

800€
for
a
freaking
SARPE

Proof I am not making this up. First budget wo SARPE:

Second budget with SARPE inside the miniscrew concept (minitornillos):

For the mandible the treatment considers corticotomy for 2k.

Once I have expanded the lower and the upper jaw I may look to prepare for bimax instead of wasting 1.5 years aligning teeth just for aesthetics.

PM me if you want to know the ortho

 

[NegativeNorwood]

I do have wider temples than zygos, but I totally agree on the rest. Not worth the risk.

Guys, you will not believe my ortho. I went today to the clinic asking precisely how much my SARPE would cost. I thought it was at 1k since the budget included a miniscrew concept at 1k. Turns out this was for something else, like a damaged nerve where they will place a screw.

They told me they forgot to add the SARPE to the budget. At this point I was shaking thinking "screw that, they will ask me for 5k just like these looksmaxxers told me "

Man oh man, the receptionist checks the computer and tells me "we need to add 800€ for the SARPE, I am so sorry, it was my fault for forgetting it". JFL.

800€
for
a
freaking
SARPE

Proof I am not making this up. First budget wo SARPE:
View attachment 2035817

Second budget with SARPE inside the miniscrew concept (minitornillos):
View attachment 2035820

For the mandible the treatment considers corticotomy for 2k.

Once I have expanded the lower and the upper jaw I may look to prepare for bimax instead of wasting 1.5 years aligning teeth just for aesthetics.

PM me if you want to know the ortho

GOAT looksmax user

 

[Giorgio]

I do have wider temples than zygos, but I totally agree on the rest. Not worth the risk.

Guys, you will not believe my ortho. I went today to the clinic asking precisely how much my SARPE would cost. I thought it was at 1k since the budget included a miniscrew concept at 1k. Turns out this was for something else, like a damaged nerve where they will place a screw.

They told me they forgot to add the SARPE to the budget. At this point I was shaking thinking "screw that, they will ask me for 5k just like these looksmaxxers told me "

Man oh man, the receptionist checks the computer and tells me "we need to add 800€ for the SARPE, I am so sorry, it was my fault for forgetting it". JFL.

800€
for
a
freaking
SARPE

Proof I am not making this up. First budget wo SARPE:
View attachment 2035817

Second budget with SARPE inside the miniscrew concept (minitornillos):
View attachment 2035820

For the mandible the treatment considers corticotomy for 2k.

Once I have expanded the lower and the upper jaw I may look to prepare for bimax instead of wasting 1.5 years aligning teeth just for aesthetics.

PM me if you want to know the ortho

@NegativeNorwood is that Spanish?

if it's another Spanish ortho I swear...

 

[NegativeNorwood]

@NegativeNorwood is that Spanish?

if it's another Spanish ortho I swear...

Indeed it is
jfl this country makes no sense, literally shit economy and job prospects, yet it has giga blackpilled orthos, maxfacs and even a handful (not just one or two) god tier hair transplant surgeons smh

 

[Magnum Opus]

I had mse myself at a young age

Did MSE wreck your symmetry & what's your intermolar distance?

measured between the molars.

 

[AscendingHero]

MSE is also attached to teeth. Dr. Kasey Li said that from case-studies, he saw that MSE delivers roughly 50% tooth expansion and 50% bone expansion. Thus, you have to expand more with MSE than with devices like TPD. Also, the TPD seems weak and it is not screwed directly into the bone like the FME which might results to one side being expanded more than the other, thus causing asymmetries. Your doctor can request the device from: https://facegenics.com/. We have to see more case-studies though to be able to make concluding statements. So far in theory this seems the best thing on the market right now.

So you think the Facegenics expander mogs TPD? Where did you seem the TPD isn't screwed directly into the bone?


Also what are your thoughts on this post by @Nims

---

Thoughts on the power expander, custom, bone borne and can expand for days

Power Expander - 3D by OrthoLab

3d.ortholab.es

It's custom made and perfect positioned to fit into what ever type of palate you have

Really curious for your thoughts on the power expander and how it matches up with the facegenics?


I want the most facial expansion/lateral zygoma expansion possible, which device ensures that?

 

[AscendingHero]

I do have wider temples than zygos, but I totally agree on the rest. Not worth the risk.

Guys, you will not believe my ortho. I went today to the clinic asking precisely how much my SARPE would cost. I thought it was at 1k since the budget included a miniscrew concept at 1k. Turns out this was for something else, like a damaged nerve where they will place a screw.

They told me they forgot to add the SARPE to the budget. At this point I was shaking thinking "screw that, they will ask me for 5k just like these looksmaxxers told me "

Man oh man, the receptionist checks the computer and tells me "we need to add 800€ for the SARPE, I am so sorry, it was my fault for forgetting it". JFL.

800€
for
a
freaking
SARPE

Proof I am not making this up. First budget wo SARPE:
View attachment 2035817

Second budget with SARPE inside the miniscrew concept (minitornillos):
View attachment 2035820

For the mandible the treatment considers corticotomy for 2k.

Once I have expanded the lower and the upper jaw I may look to prepare for bimax instead of wasting 1.5 years aligning teeth just for aesthetics.

PM me if you want to know the ortho

What type of mandibular expansion treatment will you be undergoing? Tooth or bone borne expansion?

 

[longjohnmong]

Was this the thread where Sergio-OMS was posting? Was anyone able to get in touch with him regarding MSE cost?

 

[Tasty17]

So you think the Facegenics expander mogs TPD? Where did you seem the TPD isn't screwed directly into the bone?


Also what are your thoughts on this post by @Nims
View attachment 2048802

---

Thoughts on the power expander, custom, bone borne and can expand for days

Power Expander - 3D by OrthoLab

3d.ortholab.es

It's custom made and perfect positioned to fit into what ever type of palate you have

Really curious for your thoughts on the power expander and how it matches up with the facegenics?


I want the most facial expansion/lateral zygoma expansion possible, which device ensures that?

I think both the power expander and the new FME is impressive. Though, the FME seems to look better on paper and act directly on the bone.

About the TPD, I think the device itself is not so impressive without EASE and you know how expensive that is. Also on YouTube, someone failed EASE + TPD expansion with Dr. Kasey Li. So… dunno about that.

In the end, we have to wait for before / afters to make a conclusive answer. Consistency in splitting the sutures and symmetric expansion are the most important variables.

I think in any case, piezo should be used.

 

[Tasty17]

Oh yeah, another thing, if the FME manages to split both the ANS and PNS equally, then it is definitely the best device out there. MSE has a tendency to expand the ANS much more compared to the PNS, which makes it very inefficient in increasing airway volume and aesthetic expansion.

 

[Tasty17]

Oh yeah, another thing, if the FME manages to split both the ANS and PNS equally, then it is definitely the best device out there. MSE has a tendency to expand the ANS much more compared to the PNS, which makes it very inefficient in increasing airway volume and aesthetic expansion.

@AscendingHero

 

[AscendingHero]

I think both the power expander and the new FME is impressive. Though, the FME seems to look better on paper and act directly on the bone.

Where did you see that power expander didn't act directly on the bone?

I think in any case, piezo should be used.

What is piezo again?

I think both the power expander and the new FME is impressive. Though, the FME seems to look better on paper and act directly on the bone.

Do both disarticulate/loosen facial sutures and cause midfacial/zygomatic expansion? What could one do to ensure that one optimizes midfacial expansion with these devices?

What are your views on slow expansion?

and lastly what mandibular expansion treatment would you reconmend to get post expansion?

 

[Tasty17]

Where did you see that power expander didn't act directly on the bone?


What is piezo again?


Do both disarticulate/loosen facial sutures and cause midfacial/zygomatic expansion? What could one do to ensure that one optimizes midfacial expansion with these devices?

What are your views on slow expansion?

and lastly what mandibular expansion treatment would you reconmend to get post expansion?

The power expander is a modified MSE, isn’t it? Then it will have some dental expansion too, as it attaches on them.

Slow expansion, according to Dr. John Mew, is always better because it allows the other bone structures to adapt like zygos etc.

About piezo:



He has time stamps, just skip to the piezo part.

 

[AscendingHero]

The power expander is a modified MSE, isn’t it? Then it will have some dental expansion too, as it attaches on them.

Nah it's a custom made expansion from your scans/intra oral x-rays that can expand up to 18mm depending on screw length which tend to be longer, seems to have those arms though

So logically --> more midfacial expansion?

@NegativeNorwood is a huge fan of it

 

[AscendingHero]

The power expander is a modified MSE, isn’t it? Then it will have some dental expansion too, as it attaches on them.

Slow expansion, according to Dr. John Mew, is always better because it allows the other bone structures to adapt like zygos etc.

About piezo:



He has time stamps, just skip to the piezo part.

Expansion is strong enough to not allow the screw to drag through the bone is expansion is done slowly?

 

[NegativeNorwood]

Nah it's a custom made expansion from your scans/intra oral x-rays that can expand up to 18mm depending on screw length which tend to be longer, seems to have those arms though
View attachment 2054875View attachment 2054876
So logically --> more midfacial expansion?

@NegativeNorwood is a huge fan of it

Also full skeletal expansion @Tasty17, not dental.
The device is based af, it allows for equal ANS and PNS expansion in case of a MARPE. If used for a SARPE, the anterior and posterior expansion of the palate are the same, meaning it's possible to get a smile like this with it and braces:

With the run of the mill RPE devices the posterior expansion barely happen in comparison, giving a cone shaped expansion pattern and a less aesthetic smile (most of the increase would be anterior width, and the mogger smiles have substantial posterior width, you can clearly see how his palate is U shaped in the pic above and extremely wide posteriorly, not just anteriorly)

The device posted in the OP and the one posted by @jfbjfb work on the same principle (custom made from a CBCT scan and fully bone anchored) and should be equally effective. Great times for smilecels

 

[jfbjfb]

Expansion is strong enough to not allow the screw to drag through the bone is expansion is done slowly?

Not exactly. Screw drag is caused, among other factors, when the device is not properly placed and when you expand too rapidly. This is mentioned in the Ilya Lipkin video attached above (around minute 6). You pair this with short screws anchored purely in a vertical direction, uncut arms connected to the molars, and you get a recipe for disaster.

On the other hand if you use these modified MSE options, with long screws perpendicular to the bone, surgical assist with the piezo only in the midpalatal suture, placed precisely by the ortho based on CBCT scans, and turn it once a day... Then you get real results -> zygos, undereye support, some IPD gains, wide U shaped palate, fuller lips and airway benefits.

Give me 6 months and I will be proof of this.