Software engineering is the worst choice you can make

[Zev]

So I basically if you are into CS and not top IQ it's over.
I graduated from one of the best CS school of a first world country and now I'm in charge of recruiting devs.

What I'm witnessing is quite sad.
Today I interviewed a dude for an internship and he told me "I picked this school because there are endless opportunities of work for devs."
He couldn't be further away from the truth, here is why:

- The penury of devs led to massive investment in creating dev schools, people are massively being recruited into thoses schools because they think the penury is still here and they will immediately have a job when they get their diplomas.
- This increased amount of student leds to massive internship application thus creating more cheap work for companies, there are some startups that run almost exclusively with internees and other underpaid devs.
- Third world countries can work twice the time for half the amount of money as westerners. These guys are hungry to succeed I've seen several people losing their jobs to companies relocating to places like India, some of them were boomers at the end of their careers so they didn't care, some weren't and were very upset with the situation
- AI is going to remove a lot of needs for devs, just like wordpress allowed random people to create a site or shopify to create online stores, AIs are going to allow less knowledgeable people to build more complex tools
- Salaries are decreasing, when I see the salaries I was offered a while ago and the salaries now, they either stagnated and got wrecked by inflation of even got smaller. Except for highly qualified senior profils
- I honestly think that the majority of devs are suffering depression and are heavily affected by stress, I think this is one of the most damaging profession when it comes to mental health, this was the case when the profession was well payed and had endless job opportunities, imagine now with a job crisis and AI, so many people are going to be instant doomed.

I'm personally doing well but don't think dev is a viable option for a good life. I think I was more socially and mentally fulfilled with simpler jobs like bartending.
There are a lot of jobs that may pay less but won't get you losing your hair sitting all day long at your desk worrying if an AI chad is going to steal your job and bang your Becky

Be safe out there

 

[hungryplayground175]

just dont be a curry muncher and you are good

 

[bluk]

I'm in my 3rd year and tbh I don't have the IQ for this. I'd unironically prefer just working some wagie job in a tech store or bartending like you said and then not having to worry about work as soon as I clock out. Right now trying to finish a shitty project for tomorrow and wanna kms

 

[bluk]

but bro AI is a gimmick for mindless normgroids. It's not going to be taking any jobs and time soon. It's shit.

 

[gooner23]

ive done a shit ton internships and most of them are super chill like 10-20 hours a week, like i could be in walmart on a wednesday afternoon clocked in, I think it depends on the person I love being remote, other people need to connect physically with their team though

 

[Deleted member 52491]

I'm in my 3rd year and tbh I don't have the IQ for this. I'd unironically prefer just working some wagie job in a tech store or bartending like you said and then not having to worry about work as soon as I clock out. Right now trying to finish a shitty project for tomorrow and wanna kms

What school/college do u go to

 

[gooner23]

but bro AI is a gimmick for mindless normgroids. It's not going to be taking any jobs and time soon. It's shit.

probably have never used the frontier models to their fullest extent, its not hard to see why people believe its going to take jobs

 

[bluk]

What school/college do u go to

Not doxxing myself lol. Just an average college.

 

[bluk]

probably have never used the frontier models to their fullest extent, its not hard to see why people believe its going to take jobs

It's a glorified autocomplete. It can't do shit other than write leetcode or basic CRUD bullshit that's been done a billion times.

 

[gooner23]

It's a glorified autocomplete. It can't do shit other than write leetcode or basic CRUD bullshit.

then you have never used it, my friend complained to me with the same logic, you just aren't using it to its fullest amount

 

[gooner23]

then you have never used it, my friend complained to me with the same logic, you just aren't using it to its fullest amount

i usually do 2500+ messages to chatgpt claude, and bard in a month

 

[Deleted member 52491]

Not doxxing myself lol. Just an average college.

Oh my bad for asking. Good luck

 

[bluk]

then you have never used it, my friend complained to me with the same logic, you just aren't using it to its fullest amount

please do tell what it can do that's so amazing lmao. Have you ever actually worked on a project that's more than one file big?
Which one are you talking about?

 

[gooner23]

please do tell what it can do that's so amazing lmao. Have you ever actually worked on a project that's more than one file big?
Which one are you talking about?

of course bruh i just said above ive done multiple internships, llms do 80% of my work, literally can screenshot a webpage and it will create the entire outline for you. it is the best architecting tool out there especially if you combine claudes token limit and chatgpt's general reasoning

 

[gooner23]

of course bruh i just said above ive done multiple internships, llms do 80% of my work, literally can screenshot a webpage and it will create the entire outline for you. it is the best architecting tool out there especially if you combine claudes token limit and chatgpt's general reasoning

anything under the november chatgpt model might not seem as impressive because of the 2021 limit

 

[bluk]

of course bruh i just said above ive done multiple internships, llms do 80% of my work, literally can screenshot a webpage and it will create the entire outline for you. it is the best architecting tool out there especially if you combine claudes token limit and chatgpt's general reasoning

yeah bro it can make a html page lmao and some basic back end stuff, rip codecels. There's simply no way you work in this field if it does 80% of the work for you.

 

[gooner23]

yeah bro it can make a html page lmao and some basic back end stuff, rip codecels. There's simply no way you work in this field if it does 80% of the work for you.

tell me what do you think it can't do within programming, the only argument i see it against it is frontier research but even then it will be an amazing convenience tool for researchers

 

[bluk]

tell me what do you think it can't do within programming, the only argument i see it against it is frontier research but even then it will be an amazing convenience tool for researchers

It can't do anything meaningful. You haven't worked on any big projects other than basic crudcel apps.

 

[gooner23]

It can't do anything meaningful. You haven't worked on any big projects other than basic crudcel apps.

then explain to me what a big project is? it sounds like you have 0 experience, most engineers under a staff level will be working on tickets maintaining existing infrastructure or creating new apps (basic crud apps for massive software companies).

 

[gooner23]

then explain to me what a big project is? it sounds like you have 0 experience, most engineers under a staff level will be working on tickets maintaining existing infrastructure or creating new apps (basic crud apps for massive software companies).

these engineers make 200-400k doing what you say is useless

 

[bluk]

then explain to me what a big project is? it sounds like you have 0 experience, most engineers under a staff level will be working on tickets maintaining existing infrastructure or creating new apps (basic crud apps for massive software companies).

bro you're telling me that a basic chatbot that can write basic leetcode is doing 80% of your work. You've never worked on a project with more than a few files where the same logic is shared between all of them . If you did, you'd know that chatgpt is basically no use past the shit you learn in 2nd year of university. This is some really weird larp from you. There's no way someone with a degree and a multiple internships under their belt would be telling me that an autocomplete is doing 80% of their work.

 

[gooner23]

bro you're telling me that a basic chatbot that can write basic leetcode is doing 80% of your work. You've never worked on a project with more than a few files where the same logic is shared between all of them . If you did, you'd know that chatgpt is basically no use past the shit you learn in 2nd year of university. This is some really weird larp from you. There's no way someone with a degree and a multiple internships under their belt would be telling me that an autocomplete is doing 80% of their work.

you think its autocomplete but its a lot more complex than that, your just listening to people that think chatgpt is completely useless. I bet you that chatgpt with a larger context window 1m + tokens + bing search could probably stand up 80% of uber's entire main infrastructure and be able to give you alternative security methods

 

[gooner23]

you think its autocomplete but its a lot more complex than that, your just listening to people that think chatgpt is completely useless. I bet you that chatgpt with a larger context window 1m + tokens + bing search could probably stand up 80% of uber's entire main infrastructure and be able to give you alternative security methods

chatgpt 4 pre november couldn't even handle 300 lines of code but last month i was using claude for its larger context windows 75k tokens and was easily able to handle 5 files for like a total of 3000 lines. both llms understand context and pull up something you said 20 messages ago

 

[bluk]

you think its autocomplete but its a lot more complex than that, your just listening to people that think chatgpt is completely useless. I bet you that chatgpt with a larger context window 1m + tokens + bing search could probably stand up 80% of uber's entire main infrastructure and be able to give you alternative security methods

no, it really isn't more complex than that. It just predicts the next most likely word based on huge amounts of data it's been fed.
gpt4 has le trillion billion million parameters and it isn't all that more impressive than 3.5. This form of """AI""" is a gimmick.

 

[gooner23]

no, it really isn't more complex than that. It just predicts the next most likely word based on huge amounts of data it's been fed.
gpt4 has le trillion billion million parameters and it isn't all that more impressive than 3.5. This form of """AI""" is a gimmick.

thats the point ive been using all of these models and have sent 10000 messages plus to them and understood when a model has gone to shit because of censorship, you just have no idea what your talking about, you think its a gimmick.

 

[gooner23]

no, it really isn't more complex than that. It just predicts the next most likely word based on huge amounts of data it's been fed.
gpt4 has le trillion billion million parameters and it isn't all that more impressive than 3.5. This form of """AI""" is a gimmick.

if it is truly a gimmick i doubt faang and all major chip companies would be dumping 100s of billions into ai

 

[bluk]

thats the point ive been using all of these models and have sent 10000 messages plus to them and understood when a model has gone to shit because of censorship, you just have no idea what your talking about, you think its a gimmick.

I'm not the doomer larping about working in software saying that a pajeetbot is doing 80% of the work for me lmao.

 

[gooner23]

I'm not the doomer larping about working in software saying that a pajeetbot is doing 80% of the work for me lmao.

and now your coping, probably why you haven't landed an internship, never said it was replacing our jobs just said that i can see why people are scared because the developments in just the past few months have been ridiculous. Right now its just the greatest convenience tool ever, literally makes my life so much easier

 

[gooner23]

I'm not the doomer larping about working in software saying that a pajeetbot is doing 80% of the work for me lmao.

if this argument is from early 2023 i would completely understand but if your seeing what im seeing i guess we will have to disagree

 

[mogstars]

So I basically if you are into CS and not top IQ it's over.
I graduated from one of the best CS school of a first world country and now I'm in charge of recruiting devs.

What I'm witnessing is quite sad.
Today I interviewed a dude for an internship and he told me "I picked this school because there are endless opportunities of work for devs."
He couldn't be further away from the truth, here is why:

- The penury of devs led to massive investment in creating dev schools, people are massively being recruited into thoses schools because they think the penury is still here and they will immediately have a job when they get their diplomas.
- This increased amount of student leds to massive internship application thus creating more cheap work for companies, there are some startups that run almost exclusively with internees and other underpaid devs.
- Third world countries can work twice the time for half the amount of money as westerners. These guys are hungry to succeed I've seen several people losing their jobs to companies relocating to places like India, some of them were boomers at the end of their careers so they didn't care, some weren't and were very upset with the situation
- AI is going to remove a lot of needs for devs, just like wordpress allowed random people to create a site or shopify to create online stores, AIs are going to allow less knowledgeable people to build more complex tools
- Salaries are decreasing, when I see the salaries I was offered a while ago and the salaries now, they either stagnated and got wrecked by inflation of even got smaller. Except for highly qualified senior profils
- I honestly think that the majority of devs are suffering depression and are heavily affected by stress, I think this is one of the most damaging profession when it comes to mental health, this was the case when the profession was well payed and had endless job opportunities, imagine now with a job crisis and AI, so many people are going to be instant doomed.

I'm personally doing well but don't think dev is a viable option for a good life. I think I was more socially and mentally fulfilled with simpler jobs like bartending.
There are a lot of jobs that may pay less but won't get you losing your hair sitting all day long at your desk worrying if an AI chad is going to steal your job and bang your Becky

Be safe out there

I fucking hate programming it feels like slave work

You don't even got no halo no nothing, people just think you're a fat geek or an indian

Sales mogs hard tbh

 

[bluk]

I fucking hate programming it feels like slave work

You don't even got no halo no nothing, people just think you're a fat geek or an indian

Sales mogs hard tbh

kinda wish I did some normie business degree. But tbh I did meet great people in my course despite it being known for having incels. I'm grateful for that.

 

[mogstars]

if this argument is from early 2023 i would completely understand but if your seeing what im seeing i guess we will have to disagree

I'm not the doomer larping about working in software saying that a pajeetbot is doing 80% of the work for me lmao.

if PajeetGPT is doing 80% of the work for you, you must be doing very retarded simple work or boilerplate code that you can find on stack overflow

 

[gooner23]

if PajeetGPT is doing 80% of the work for you, you must be doing very retarded simple work or boilerplate code that you can find on stack overflow

so tell me what you do for work and how many years of experience you have please be making more than 220k too

 

[mogstars]

so tell me what you do for work and how many years of experience you have please be making more than 220k too

gooner23 everyone knows ur broke as shit larping its fine bhai

Ur probably 15 and watched some YouTube videos

and I'm a business owner

 

[gooner23]

gooner23 everyone knows ur broke as shit larping its fine bhai

Ur probably 15 and watched some YouTube videos

and I'm a business owner

lmao fuck you and your ecommerce business, you probably didn't read any of my comments

 

[SubSigma]

Software engineering degree is basically a status boost. You have a piece of paper saying that you are smart and competent compared to other majors. It is also not as hard as other engineering fields. Even tho the software field will be over saturated, you will still have a lot of options compared to other majors. CS/CE mogs hard if you do not have connections.

 

[illoan82]

I'm in my 3rd year and tbh I don't have the IQ for this. I'd unironically prefer just working some wagie job in a tech store or bartending like you said and then not having to worry about work as soon as I clock out. Right now trying to finish a shitty project for tomorrow and wanna kms

when u were a senior in heighschool what did u think about majoring in cs

 

[bradpittshairline]

So what should I do kill myself

 

[Zev]

@gooner23 @bluk as of today GPT is just a useful tool it won't replace a dev 100% but certainly improve his productivity to a point that less employees are needed. Also things like copilot enterprise are coming, when AI is capable of working on a full repo it will drastically change the dev world. Tools aren't on point now but will be very soon, also entities like US gov or amazon are joining the race of who has the best trained model.

Software engineering degree is basically a status boost. You have a piece of paper saying that you are smart and competent compared to other majors. It is also not as hard as other engineering fields. Even tho the software field will be over saturated, you will still have a lot of options compared to other majors. CS/CE mogs hard if you do not have connections.

If you have the connections any degree will do.

 

[Deleted member 28927]

smoke weed play guitar read books find purpose​

 

[EverythingMattersCel]

yeah bro it can make a html page lmao and some basic back end stuff, rip codecels. There's simply no way you work in this field if it does 80% of the work for you.

Yeah, GPT-4 is useful for boilerplate, cleaning up syntax, idiomatic style for quickly picking up new language or framework, comments, fast-tracking documentation and much more. Still just an ancillary tool atm though.

The problem is you talk as if the current AI is where progress ends. A prodigious amount of money is being invested into the field and progress appears exponential for several reasons.

1) Models become more compressed and quantised with time. We already have open-source models that can run on a powerful desktop capable of reaching GPT 3 level. Imagine a few years down the line. Ppl will be able to locally run GP4+ models on their phones and laptops.

2) Models getting significantly larger. CEOs of big AI companies stated they are currently training models 100x larger than GPT-4. Now read the "Sparks of AGI" paper and u will see that scaling models lead to emergent reasoning abilities. With just scaling alone, we have no idea what will happen.

3) The 3 problems rn: hallucinations, context length and data bottlenecks are all rumoured to be solved.

- GPT-4 is partly trained on its own synthetic data. GPT-5 level models will likely be mostly synthetic data. Synthetic data is limitless.
- Input context length already up to 200k tokens on Claude-2 and 128k with GPT-4-turbo API. That's enough already to traverse through small codebases.
- OpenAI devs have publically stated models will be hallucination-free by 2025

Now look at nascent agentic frameworks like Microsoft AutoGen and imagine it being leveraged with hallucination-free, long-term memory and huge context LLMs. The autonomous agents could easily outperform 99% of white-collar workers in an organisation... we're not even talking about just software devs at that point.

I don't think a lot of ppl realise what's going to happen and how quickly it's going to occur. Even if we had an AI winter, the natural rate of unemployment is going to rise quite substantially... there will be no "creative destruction" for AI that can outperform humans on every relevant metric.

 

[flippasav]

So I basically if you are into CS and not top IQ it's over.
I graduated from one of the best CS school of a first world country and now I'm in charge of recruiting devs.

What I'm witnessing is quite sad.
Today I interviewed a dude for an internship and he told me "I picked this school because there are endless opportunities of work for devs."
He couldn't be further away from the truth, here is why:

- The penury of devs led to massive investment in creating dev schools, people are massively being recruited into thoses schools because they think the penury is still here and they will immediately have a job when they get their diplomas.
- This increased amount of student leds to massive internship application thus creating more cheap work for companies, there are some startups that run almost exclusively with internees and other underpaid devs.
- Third world countries can work twice the time for half the amount of money as westerners. These guys are hungry to succeed I've seen several people losing their jobs to companies relocating to places like India, some of them were boomers at the end of their careers so they didn't care, some weren't and were very upset with the situation
- AI is going to remove a lot of needs for devs, just like wordpress allowed random people to create a site or shopify to create online stores, AIs are going to allow less knowledgeable people to build more complex tools
- Salaries are decreasing, when I see the salaries I was offered a while ago and the salaries now, they either stagnated and got wrecked by inflation of even got smaller. Except for highly qualified senior profils
- I honestly think that the majority of devs are suffering depression and are heavily affected by stress, I think this is one of the most damaging profession when it comes to mental health, this was the case when the profession was well payed and had endless job opportunities, imagine now with a job crisis and AI, so many people are going to be instant doomed.

I'm personally doing well but don't think dev is a viable option for a good life. I think I was more socially and mentally fulfilled with simpler jobs like bartending.
There are a lot of jobs that may pay less but won't get you losing your hair sitting all day long at your desk worrying if an AI chad is going to steal your job and bang your Becky

Be safe out there

Good thread

 

[gooner23]

Yeah, GPT-4 is useful for boilerplate, cleaning up syntax, idiomatic style for quickly picking up new language or framework, comments, fast-tracking documentation and much more. Still just an ancillary tool atm though.

The problem is you talk as if the current AI is where progress ends. A prodigious amount of money is being invested into the field and progress appears exponential for several reasons.

1) Models become more compressed and quantised with time. We already have open-source models that can run on a powerful desktop capable of reaching GPT 3 level. Imagine a few years down the line. Ppl will be able to locally run GP4+ models on their phones and laptops.

2) Models getting significantly larger. CEOs of big AI companies stated they are currently training models 100x larger than GPT-4. Now read the "Sparks of AGI" paper and u will see that scaling models lead to emergent reasoning abilities. With just scaling alone, we have no idea what will happen.

3) The 3 problems rn: hallucinations, context length and data bottlenecks are all rumoured to be solved.

- GPT-4 is partly trained on its own synthetic data. GPT-5 level models will likely be mostly synthetic data. Synthetic data is limitless.
- Input context length already up to 200k tokens on Claude-2 and 128k with GPT-4-turbo API. That's enough already to traverse through small codebases.
- OpenAI devs have publically stated models will be hallucination-free by 2025

Now look at nascent agentic frameworks like Microsoft AutoGen and imagine it being leveraged with hallucination-free, long-term memory and huge context LLMs. The autonomous agents could easily outperform 99% of white-collar workers in an organisation... we're not even talking about just software devs at that point.

I don't think a lot of ppl realise what's going to happen and how quickly it's going to occur. Even if we had an AI winter, the natural rate of unemployment is going to rise quite substantially... there will be no "creative destruction" for AI that can outperform humans on every relevant metric.

i told bluk this but he seems to not understand he still believes its a complicated autocomplete or some bs

 

[bara]

I graduated from one of the best CS school of a first world country and now I'm in charge of recruiting devs.

When did you graduate.

 

[Deleted member 12413]

So I basically if you are into CS and not top IQ it's over.
I graduated from one of the best CS school of a first world country and now I'm in charge of recruiting devs.

What I'm witnessing is quite sad.
Today I interviewed a dude for an internship and he told me "I picked this school because there are endless opportunities of work for devs."
He couldn't be further away from the truth, here is why:

- The penury of devs led to massive investment in creating dev schools, people are massively being recruited into thoses schools because they think the penury is still here and they will immediately have a job when they get their diplomas.
- This increased amount of student leds to massive internship application thus creating more cheap work for companies, there are some startups that run almost exclusively with internees and other underpaid devs.
- Third world countries can work twice the time for half the amount of money as westerners. These guys are hungry to succeed I've seen several people losing their jobs to companies relocating to places like India, some of them were boomers at the end of their careers so they didn't care, some weren't and were very upset with the situation
- AI is going to remove a lot of needs for devs, just like wordpress allowed random people to create a site or shopify to create online stores, AIs are going to allow less knowledgeable people to build more complex tools
- Salaries are decreasing, when I see the salaries I was offered a while ago and the salaries now, they either stagnated and got wrecked by inflation of even got smaller. Except for highly qualified senior profils
- I honestly think that the majority of devs are suffering depression and are heavily affected by stress, I think this is one of the most damaging profession when it comes to mental health, this was the case when the profession was well payed and had endless job opportunities, imagine now with a job crisis and AI, so many people are going to be instant doomed.

I'm personally doing well but don't think dev is a viable option for a good life. I think I was more socially and mentally fulfilled with simpler jobs like bartending.
There are a lot of jobs that may pay less but won't get you losing your hair sitting all day long at your desk worrying if an AI chad is going to steal your job and bang your Becky

Be safe out there

thank you for this, currently in cs and transferring into finance next term. (was already planning on doing this)

 

[Deleted member 12413]

kinda wish I did some normie business degree. But tbh I did meet great people in my course despite it being known for having incels. I'm grateful for that.

thank god im switching from cs to business jfl

 

[bimaxenthusiast]

dnrd a lot of the replies but I'll just say this - the world has more than enough shitty order-takers, but never enough creative value-add software engineers.

thank god im switching from cs to business jfl

stay as technical as you can while still doing a business degree, its people who are technical but also business minded that end up earning more

 

[PURE ARYAN GENETICS]

It's a glorified autocomplete. It can't do shit other than write leetcode or basic CRUD bullshit that's been done a billion times.

if you're in 3rd year and think this then you really don't have the IQ for it

 

[Samsepioler]

its fucking hell when u have low iq. cant understand most of this shit

 

[bluk]

Yeah, GPT-4 is useful for boilerplate, cleaning up syntax, idiomatic style for quickly picking up new language or framework, comments, fast-tracking documentation and much more. Still just an ancillary tool atm though.

The problem is you talk as if the current AI is where progress ends. A prodigious amount of money is being invested into the field and progress appears exponential for several reasons.

1) Models become more compressed and quantised with time. We already have open-source models that can run on a powerful desktop capable of reaching GPT 3 level. Imagine a few years down the line. Ppl will be able to locally run GP4+ models on their phones and laptops.

2) Models getting significantly larger. CEOs of big AI companies stated they are currently training models 100x larger than GPT-4. Now read the "Sparks of AGI" paper and u will see that scaling models lead to emergent reasoning abilities. With just scaling alone, we have no idea what will happen.

3) The 3 problems rn: hallucinations, context length and data bottlenecks are all rumoured to be solved.

- GPT-4 is partly trained on its own synthetic data. GPT-5 level models will likely be mostly synthetic data. Synthetic data is limitless.
- Input context length already up to 200k tokens on Claude-2 and 128k with GPT-4-turbo API. That's enough already to traverse through small codebases.
- OpenAI devs have publically stated models will be hallucination-free by 2025

Now look at nascent agentic frameworks like Microsoft AutoGen and imagine it being leveraged with hallucination-free, long-term memory and huge context LLMs. The autonomous agents could easily outperform 99% of white-collar workers in an organisation... we're not even talking about just software devs at that point.

I don't think a lot of ppl realise what's going to happen and how quickly it's going to occur. Even if we had an AI winter, the natural rate of unemployment is going to rise quite substantially... there will be no "creative destruction" for AI that can outperform humans on every relevant metric.

I’ll reply to you later when I have time

if you're in 3rd year and think this then you really don't have the IQ for it

no lol, that’s literally what it is. It predicts the next most likely word. it’s autistic niggers like you that jumped onto the bandwagon like they do with every gimmick that comes out.