The Side-Effect Fallacy of Looks Theory and Why Gonial Angle Is Overrated

thecel

thecel

morph king
Joined
May 16, 2020
Posts
24,372
Reputation
51,585
People often determine the importance of a trait by examining how much attractiveness is affected by altering the trait. E.g. by using morphs like these:

Shitgonion
Obtuse Gonion
Good Gonion
Acute Gonion


People conclude, from these morphs, that the gonial angle is one of—if not the—most important factors in a jaw’s attractiveness. Wrong.

Gonial angle is an overrated part of jaw aesthetics. Why? The morphs contain a major fallacy in looks theory; the fallacy is when you morph a trait and inadvertently change another trait that’s actually more important for attractiveness, but you think the trait that you intended to morph is the main cause of the resulting attractiveness differences.

In the morphs above, the intention was to compare different gonial angles, but what actually happened is the mandibular angle and ramus length were dramatically altered in the process. The latter 2 traits are much more important than gonial angle is.

The most important factor in the attractiveness of a jawline in the side profile view is the angle between the mandibular body and the Frankfurt Plane (which is the same as the horizon when the head is facing straight ahead (not tilted upwards or downwards)).

main-qimg-06fa49b5e7b09f376b5b874c4dfc8021.webp



15 Degrees2


Henry Cavill’s mandibular body goes 15º under the horizon line (Frankfurt Plane). 15º is ideal.

This is the angle that really makes or breaks jawlines. Too shallow an angle and it has a Short-Face-Syndrome look. Too deep an angle and it has a downward-grown, horse-faced look.


The height of the ramus is also very important for a masculine-looking jawline.

jawdimensions.png


So you see, the “gonial angle morphs” are really more like “mandibular slope and ramus height” morphs:

Shitgonion
Obtuse Gonion
Good Gonion
Acute Gonion


The mandibular slope and the ramus height—not the gonial angle—are the main reasons for particular morphs looking attractive and unattractive.

It’s impossible to change the gonial angle exclusively; geometrically, changing gonial angle must change other angles and ratios of the jaw. Despite that, there are ways to morph gonial angle while minimizing side effects. Like so:

Obtuse Ok Gonion
Good Gonion
Acute Ok Gonion


These gonial-angle morphs keep the same mandibular slope of 15º. We can see how gonial angle by itself isn’t as crucial as many looksmaxers think. The 3rd morph’s gonial angle is close to 90º, but it isn’t anything close to as comically bad as what most people think a 90º gonial angle looks like:

Acute Gonion


This comical morph not only made the gonial angle 90º but also made the mandible angle be parallel to the horizon, and the latter makes a bigger effect on his attractiveness than gonial angle itself does.

Avoid the Side Effect Fallacy.
 
  • +1
  • JFL
  • Woah
Reactions: Rosefan4everNofags, St.TikTokcel, Yerico7 and 20 others
all this affected by gonial angle keep coping
 
  • WTF
Reactions: thecel
Thermonuclear cope just tell us you have a banana jaw
 
  • JFL
  • WTF
Reactions: horizontallytall, Deleted member 24444 and thecel
shit thread
gonial angle is easier to measure and usually tells you what’s wrong with the jaw
 
  • WTF
  • +1
Reactions: PURE ARYAN GENETICS and thecel
all this affected by gonial angle keep coping

No shit, but it’s more about the other stuff than the gonial angle itself.

It’s impossible to change the gonial angle exclusively; geometrically, changing gonial angle must change other angles and ratios of the jaw. Despite that, there are ways to morph gonial angle while minimizing side effects.

Just having a bad gonial angle isn’t really that bad.

A common moment of cope is when people see a dude’s unaesthetic jaw and say, “It’s because of his shitty gonial angle bro!” His bad jaw is caused by things that’re related to the gonial angle but are also distinctly different.
 
Last edited:
  • +1
Reactions: got.daim and Lookologist003
No shit, but it’s more about the other stuff than the gonial angle itself.



Just having a bad gonial angle isn’t really that bad.

A common moment of cope is when people see a dude’s unaesthetic jaw and say, “It’s because of his shitty gonial angle bro!” His bad jaw is caused by things that’re related to the gonial angle but are also distinctly different.
Yea let me just set up frankfurt plane to measure mpa. Just extra work for nothing
 
  • WTF
  • JFL
Reactions: got.daim and thecel
gonial angle is easier to measure

In the image editing software I used to make the morphs, measuring mandible slope takes 1 click, and measuring gonial angle takes 2 clicks and a key-holddown.
 
Last edited:
  • +1
Reactions: Lookologist003 and sibience
Yea let me just set up frankfurt plane to measure mpa. Just extra work for nothing

A side profile with good posture shouldn’t be more than 1–2 degrees off the Frankfurt Plane anyway. It’s how a human head is naturally angled when looking straight forwards.

And measuring is largely irrelevant because you don’t have to measure someone’s angles and ratios to know why they look good/bad. If I see a downward-grown horsecuck’s side profile, I instantly tell that his jaw’s shittiness is mainly attributed to a mandibular angle that slopes too much downwards.
 
  • +1
Reactions: sibience
A side profile with good posture shouldn’t be more than 1 or 2 degrees off the Frankfurt Plane anyway. It’s how a human head is naturally angled when looking straight forwards.

And measuring is largely irrelevant because you don’t have to measure someone’s angles and ratios to know why they look good/bad. If I see a downward-grown horsecuck’s side profile, I instantly tell that his jaw’s shittiness is mainly attributed to a mandibular angle that slopes too much downwards.
no downward grown jaws with good gonial angles irl
 
  • JFL
Reactions: thecel
very good thread!
 
  • +1
Reactions: sibience and thecel
no downward grown jaws with good gonial angles irl

Shitass


This downswung jaw’s gonial angle is 115.6 degrees.

Its mandibular angle is 25.6 degrees under the horizon (15 degrees is ideal).
 

Attachments

  • Shitass.png
    Shitass.png
    651.7 KB · Views: 0
  • +1
Reactions: sibience
nigga no shit. no one is gonna say nessman has a shit gonial angle
1232ac628195ef56087ae5081d0f4ad5.jpg
 
  • Love it
Reactions: thecel
Yes mandibular plane angle should be the measurement that determines whether a jaw has good foundation for being attractive or not.

Usually gonial angle is very hard to measure accurately. With different pictures of the same person the gonial angle could be measured for +/- 2 degrees of error even when the gonion is somewhat defined.


And also many people that get jaw surgery (bsso ccw rotation) to change the high gonial angle still can have unattractive jaws due to their mandibular plane angle still being too high.



So yes good thread.
 
  • +1
Reactions: Chintuck22 and thecel
i dont understand
 
  • So Sad
Reactions: thecel
Really good post, love when higher IQ people come in to explain away the pervasive fallacies of the base of users
 
  • +1
Reactions: got.daim, Deleted member 6583 and thecel
Shit thread OP
 
  • Hmm...
Reactions: thecel
People often determine the importance of a trait by examining how much attractiveness is affected by altering the trait. E.g. by using morphs like these:

View attachment 2064880View attachment 2064879View attachment 2064881View attachment 2064882

People conclude, from these morphs, that the gonial angle is one of—if not the—most important factors in a jaw’s attractiveness. Wrong.

Gonial angle is an overrated part of jaw aesthetics. Why? The morphs contain a major fallacy in looks theory; the fallacy is when you morph a trait and inadvertently change another trait that’s actually more important for attractiveness, but you think the trait that you intended to morph is the main cause of the resulting attractiveness differences.

In the morphs above, the intention was to compare different gonial angles, but what actually happened is the mandibular angle and ramus length were dramatically altered in the process. The latter 2 traits are much more important than gonial angle is.

The most important factor in the attractiveness of a jawline in the side profile view is the angle between the mandibular body and the Frankfurt Plane (which is the same as the horizon when the head is facing straight ahead (not tilted upwards or downwards)).

main-qimg-06fa49b5e7b09f376b5b874c4dfc8021.webp



View attachment 2064907

Henry Cavill’s mandibular body goes 15º under the horizon line (Frankfurt Plane). 15º is ideal.

This is the angle that really makes or breaks jawlines. Too shallow an angle and it has a Short-Face-Syndrome look. Too deep an angle and it has a downward-grown, horse-faced look.


The height of the ramus is also very important for a masculine-looking jawline.

jawdimensions.png


So you see, the “gonial angle morphs” are really more like “mandibular slope and ramus height” morphs:

View attachment 2064880View attachment 2064879View attachment 2064881View attachment 2064882

The mandibular slope and the ramus height—not the gonial angle—are the main reasons for particular morphs looking attractive and unattractive.

It’s impossible to change the gonial angle exclusively; geometrically, changing gonial angle must change other angles and ratios of the jaw. Despite that, there are ways to morph gonial angle while minimizing side effects. Like so:

View attachment 2064918View attachment 2064919View attachment 2064921


These gonial-angle morphs keep the same mandibular slope of 15º. We can see how gonial angle by itself isn’t as crucial as many looksmaxers think. The 3rd morph’s gonial angle is close to 90º, but it isn’t anything close to as comically bad as what most people think a 90º gonial angle looks like:

View attachment 2064882

This comical morph not only made the gonial angle 90º but also made the mandible angle be parallel to the horizon, and the latter makes a bigger effect on his attractiveness than gonial angle itself does.

Avoid the Side Effect Fallacy.
All of these morphs look autistic
 
  • JFL
Reactions: thecel
very nice, luscious, and intense thread. a quality read and a well-deserved rep will be delivered briefly.

i've often said something similar about the nose.

in and of itself, most nose work, but noses that have a mostly straight bridge with slight upturning work because they simulate more forward grown maxilla, regardless of how well grown the maxilla usually is. since dorsal humps, hook noses, too downturned tips tend to be causatively associated but not exclusively so, with recessed / downgrown developmental patterns.
 
  • Love it
Reactions: thecel
cope
 
  • JFL
Reactions: thecel
how about you quit whinign and go cry to your mom for more chips and dip to eat in ur basement all over ur Greasy fingers fuck u
 
  • JFL
  • So Sad
  • +1
Reactions: Chintuck22, thecel, Lookologist003 and 1 other person
In the image editing software I used to make the morphs, measuring mandible slope takes 1 click, and measuring gonial angle takes 2 clicks and a key-holddown.
Can you tell us what software this is?
 
  • +1
Reactions: thecel
I don't think this thread got enough attention for it's quality and message. So...bump.
 
  • Love it
Reactions: thecel
but there are so many GL guys with slightly banana jaws, probably not far from ideal but still gives them oval front face... how do they do it? and how do u know if u woiuld look better wiht a different gonioal angle
 
  • +1
Reactions: thecel
Good thread man. I also made a thread regarding Mandibular Angle and it's importance. Yeah, it's definitely much more important that Gonial Angle.

Gonial angle would have been a fine measurement, if everybody had the same ramus tilt angle. Also, I'd love to hear what you have to say regarding the following stuff:

Obtuse Ok Gonion
Good Gonion
Acute Ok Gonion


In your morphs, a less slanted ramus (+longer mandible) would be percieved as more attractive from the front too. Due to the importance of the gonion relative to the lips from front, as the widest part of your face will be just below your lips.

Imo, that would give a way less DOM front view:
1713913516980


Its interesting, because despite a more "slayer" side view, you will look less DOM front. It's a win-win tbh, because if you are in the situation where your mandible is long, despite the more "feminine" position where your gonion lies, you clearly already have sufficient masculinity.

Not sure if you changed the forward growth of all features, but I also saw that you can give a significant percieved effect of forward growth from increasing mandibular length (i.e. Jaw Angle Implants can create illusion of considerably more forward growth of the Splanchocranium).

So somebody who had Braces with Elastics to move their lower jaw forward, could severly benefit from Ramus implant?

1713914695746


Also, can you let me know if slanted ramus is even naturally possible without Orthotropics (and bringing the lower jaw forward to treat Class 2)?
 
  • Love it
  • +1
Reactions: Lookologist003 and thecel
View attachment 2064960

This downswung jaw’s gonial angle is 115.6 degrees.

Its mandibular angle is 25.6 degrees under the horizon (15 degrees is ideal).
hey i want you to have a look at my gonial angle and mandibular angle if you dont mind? i tried to view your profile to send a message but it wont let me
 
  • +1
Reactions: thecel

Similar threads

Seth Walsh
Replies
21
Views
3K
yeeyeeslayer
yeeyeeslayer
NZb6Air
Replies
81
Views
3K
HighClassMaxing
HighClassMaxing
donkeyskin
Replies
24
Views
5K
Avertion
Avertion
BlackpillRemedy
Replies
78
Views
5K
gooner23
gooner23

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top