Your face is a puzzle - Surgerymaxxing without becoming uncanny.

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ostri99 said:
can you imagine how low iq and niggerish will she look when talking, eating, smiling? you have a limited range of expressions with that little beak pouty monkey lip mouth thing, not to mention those type of faces get wrinkles fast
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Interesting that it reminds me of how the mandible changes as we age it protrudes, thins and the gonion becomes a smoother transition from ramii to mandible body

IMG 0633

As she ages she’s going to look really odd
ostri99 said:
lips are not the issue. it's just all the scrunched up chin/mouth/nose section. it looks way too compressed. And dr forgot to downgraft her maxilla. View attachment 4172734View attachment 4172736View attachment 4172737 should have ordered something like this
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Notice how her facial structure seems to have become superficially younger now that the mandibular angle is less flat, which is again a sign of aging

Just goes to show how different surgeries are, even under the same name, the surgery plan + surgeon is equally as important as the surgery itself

Don’t go ahead unless you can actually articulate what you’re doing to yourself, these aren’t the kind of things you want to skimp out on and consult a Turk for

Á la Frank Tufano
 
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bookmarked
 
ostri99 said:
best surgery to get niggermaxxed if done standalone. you just need enough ccw on mandible so the lower incissors match your chin in a straight line, enough as to not get a genio which causes deep mentolabial fold, and a witch chin when smiling. CCW in maxilla is just dumb and is an ethnic trait. You want your upper incissors tucked in as much as possible while flaring the ANS and maxilla forward, while retaining a good oclussion. View attachment 4169953this looks stupid and hominid tier, notice how the nose gets buried and all the features get scrunched up together, looks gooky/ethnic/neotenous af. View attachment 4169960this is what you want to achieve with surgeries. forward grown profile with sleek lines and facial feature separation with the mouth tucked in nicely. looks mogger in every angle and charismatic in every facial expression
Click to expand...
they have the same amount of maxilla projection the second girl just has a non protrusive bite and better mandible + chin
 
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mirrormogger said:
the lower part of your nose moves forward with your upper jaw, the first pic is just teeth protrusion not forward grown upper jaw
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Ideally it should move 1 to 1 or part of your nose even more forward. when you get CCW by surgery they tilt the teeth/alveolar upwards burying the ANS/nose area behind, sometimes to the point of "thickening" the upper lip. Doesn't thicken the soft tissue it just now is showing more lip like perma pouting. some ethnics suffer from this natty.
1760022211403
nose sticking out forward with non recessed lower maxilla looks stronger and more structured, less neotenous.
1760022440969
1760022670843

mirrormogger said:
they have the same amount of maxilla projection the second girl just has a non protrusive bite and better mandible + chin
Click to expand...
I used to think the same, that it just is a difference between incissor projection and could be corrected with braces/extractions. but looking at ct scans some people are missing a lot of alveolar projection making it look slanted, where ideally it should be a straight flat line or a little curvature. chinks missing the most and blacks sometimes just being the teeth. drago has really flat lines that translates to more skeletal projection and looking defined in every angle. in chinks, atractiveness is just a contest of who has the more caucasoid skull jfl
1760023066500
1760023131739
 
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ostri99 said:
Ideally it should move 1 to 1 or part of your nose even more forward. when you get CCW by surgery they tilt the teeth/alveolar upwards burying the ANS/nose area behind, sometimes to the point of "thickening" the upper lip. Doesn't thicken the soft tissue it just now is showing more lip like perma pouting. some ethnics suffer from this natty. View attachment 4190543nose sticking out forward with non recessed lower maxilla looks stronger and more structured, less neotenous.View attachment 4190552 View attachment 4190567

I used to think the same, that it just is a difference between incissor projection and could be corrected with braces/extractions. but looking at ct scans some people are missing a lot of alveolar projection making it look slanted, where ideally it should be a straight flat line or a little curvature. chinks missing the most and blacks sometimes just being the teeth. drago has really flat lines that translates to more skeletal projection and looking defined in every angle. in chinks, atractiveness is just a contest of who has the more caucasoid skull jflView attachment 4190591View attachment 4190595
Click to expand...
for caucasoid people though(more specifically males and some masculine looking females), forward positioned maxilla and mandible actually looks striking though, the sharpness of the features(compared to the more soft looking faces of most other races) keeps it from having the “chimp” look.
here i overadvanced the jaws of two caucasian men with already good bites:
IMG 1796
IMG 2995

IMG 2996
IMG 2994

keep in mind i overadvanced them by a lot to show the point realistically as long as you aren’t booking in mumbai you wouldn’t even find a surgeon willing to bring you this far forward.
Obviously with this much movement they look worse yes, but the point is your jaw projection isn’t going to make you neotenous or chimp looking unless your other features are soft or puffy. A strong amount of jaw projection can look very striking:
IMG 2878
 
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mirrormogger said:
for caucasoid people though(more specifically males and some masculine looking females), forward positioned maxilla and mandible actually looks striking though, the sharpness of the features(compared to the more soft looking faces of most other races) keeps it from having the “chimp” look.
here i overadvanced the jaws of two caucasian men with already good bites:
View attachment 4190794View attachment 4190798
View attachment 4190814View attachment 4190815
keep in mind i overadvanced them by a lot to show the point realistically as long as you aren’t booking in mumbai you wouldn’t even find a surgeon willing to bring you this far forward.
Obviously with this much movement they look worse yes, but the point is your jaw projection isn’t going to make you neotenous or chimp looking unless your other features are soft or puffy. A strong amount of jaw projection can look very striking:
View attachment 4190823
Click to expand...
In the afters ik the intention but I can already tell the front will look compressed around the mouth area. last guy looks neotenous due to his compressed lower third, it doesn't look like it will due well in all angles / irl motion / film, and due to vertical shortness some people might say he is more forward grown than this guy for example
1760033129355
. this looks ideal if you want both jaws ahead the brow line type of look without getting compressed and fucking up your motion/expressions. you're right tho that protruding mouth can work in whites sometimes, it's now common in amerimutts so it's getting normalized and won't look out of place
1760033665150
 
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ostri99 said:
can already tell the front will look compressed around the mouth area
Click to expand...
can u elab or show pictures of what you mean

ostri99 said:
ast guy looks neotenous due to his compressed lower third, it doesn't look like it will due well in all angles / irl motion / film,
Click to expand...
 
i meant elab why the front would look compressed around mouth area
 
1760036307247
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niggas like this just look stunted and low iq
 
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MrEnigma_ said:
Frontal recession kinda sucks it’s one of the only bones that can’t be changed via surgery

I’m a white geezer from Europe and have the profile of Barret and the top right

Probably from all the phytoestrogens or something

View attachment 4192837

It gives a feminine/neotenous convexity measurement like Kroes

MFs need a monobloc
Click to expand...
The Neurocranium is not mentioned enough in this community
 
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MrEnigma_ said:
The Neurocranium is not mentioned enough in this community
Click to expand...
oh yeah, they share that same trait as well now that you mention it, it definitely adds up to the overall look. I wasn't focusing on that feature tho, was just giving examples to what the other poster was talking about. i've seen good forehead implants, the ones that look good give depth to the upper third in the after, it makes asians look more narrow headed in pictures, less wide and flat
1760062065913
 
ostri99 said:
oh yeah, they share that same trait as well now that you mention it, it definitely adds up to the overall look. I wasn't focusing on that feature tho, was just giving examples to what the other poster was talking about. i've seen good forehead implants, the ones that look good give depth to the upper third in the after, it makes asians look more narrow headed in pictures, less wide and flat View attachment 4193068
Click to expand...
>I wasn't focusing on that feature tho, was just giving examples to what the other poster was talking about

Indeed, my apologies, the pics gave me the thought. My reply was quite strange and didn’t make much sense in context, a non-sequitur

In any case

I don’t think implants can really work for the deeper set eyes that masculine caucasoid skulls tend to have

IMG 0645
IMG 0550


You can’t get that kind of frontal bone projection with an implant

Brow ridge implants kind of work

But you end up with a sloping forehead which is rather caveman like and results tend to be sub par

IMG 0648
IMG 0649

*he didn’t have implants but point stands

An implant wouldn’t be able to give you any projection of the “orbital roof” the roof being made up of the frontal bone

I believe that requires bringing the frontal bone forward surgically

“Orbital roof” circled:

IMG 0645
 
ostri99 said:
yeah maybe not as chimpmaxxed as yours, but she lost her aesthetic upper lip. she looks more ethnic than before for sure tho. View attachment 4183471 :lul: those results look like perma clenching to me, ethnics should go to asian clinics if western surgeon doesn't want to give you strong white profile
Click to expand...
no she didnt, chimp lip means convex upper lip, hers is still curved concave...you confuse with dogmaxxing but shes not even dogmaxxed.

And the guy is a huge upgrade but hes frauding the result turning his head more after, and hair looks like shit
 
psl6by2028 said:
You actually have decent bones at the moment, some simple softmaxxinng such as growing out the hair, skincare and eyelashmaxxing would take you far. Nonetheless you can still improve.

Usually when people’s lower jaw seems small and the chin doesn’t reach the nasion/lower lip, it’s because of down growth and a high level of clockwise rotation (hence leading to a large genial angle).

However in your case, it does in fact seem like your mandible is genetically just short, given your gonial angle seems fine I don’t think you’re particularly downgrown.

From your lips it seems like you have an overbite, in which case a BSSO would help a lot (it doesn’t seem like your upper lip/lower maxilla is recessed, but you may end up needing a full Bimax to fully align teeth).

If you don’t have an overbite then a specialised genioplasty, such as a mini wing genioplasty, would likely be sufficient.

Of course if you prefer implants then a wraparound jaw implant would also help, but I personally think osteotomies are superior, especially for the lower third.
Click to expand...
If he has overbite like me where maxilla is good but lower jaw is trapped he can decompensate with orthodontics and do bsso to pull lower jaw forward to maxilla level
 
ostri99 said:
it's called asian rhino and sold as a package. you get nose / nose tip / nose bridge / glabella / paranasal / anterior nasal spine implants / grafts and alarplasty. and some other soft tissue tricks to make the nose more projected and 3d. it's just an ilussion, nose doesn't get any longer from radix to alar base
Click to expand...
can you provide any results of this?
 
psl6by2028 said:
So as most of us know, surgerymaxxing is one of the only ways to ascend multiple tiers of looks (ltn -> htn, mtn -> cl) provided you are not a fat/bloated. However, it is also common knowledge that simply getting surgeries left right and centre without a proper plan will simply result in looking uncanny and potentially even worse than being natural.

Excuse me if I make a few grammatical mistakes, I am drunk right now and can't even feel the keys I am typing on after attending the club and getting absolutely 0 play. Side note, it's crazy how much blackpill unfolds in the club when everyone resorts to their 'primal instincts' via a little shot of alcohol.

Remember one thing, HARMONY MOGS ALL

So of the 4 pillars of attractiveness: harmony, angularity, dimorphism, features, harmony is the base for all others. If you have dimorphism, features and angularity but no harmony it simply will render you an ogre, think modern Jordan Barret (albeit he still has quite a bit of harmony).

This is part of the reason natural beauty is very hard to replicate via surgery, and why many surgery-maxxing journeys end up with the patient looking uncanny, simply because they have little harmony but insane angularity and dimorphism. Features can, to an extend, compensate for a lack of harmony but even in this case the features need to work harmoniously together, think hunter eyes and strong jaw - hunter eyes with a recessed lower third would simply look stupid.

Measuring Harmony
So you might be thinking, ok sure, harmony is the most important pillar, but how can we even measure it. Muh beauty is intrinsic, muh beauty cannot be measured. No.

Ratios = Harmony. But not just the 5 or so ratios commonly touted here. You need to consider almost every ratio on your face. If even one ratio strays drastically from the population average then you will end up looking uncanny. Below is a BOTB thread with 38 important ratios on the face:
https://looksmax.org/threads/38-mos...nd-the-ideal-measurements-high-effort.956143/

Before you ratio copers come in the comments below, you need to understand that these ideal ranges are not based on muh golden ratio but rather via studies conducted to explicitly identity which ratio is most attractive, e.g. a 110 - 125 degree gonial angle is scientifically proven to be most attractive because PEOPLE THEMSELVES voted them to be. This ties into the idea that specific ratios are attractive because the host person himself was attractive rather than the ratio itself being attractive, but we will ignore that for now and assume the ratio itself is what makes them attractive.


When you start to stack nearly 40 ratios, you will likely find you don't meet nearly all of them, which makes sense given you are browsing this forum. I will reveal my own ratios to make you feel better:
Ratio, ideal range, my measurement.
  1. Gonial angle: 112-123 degrees, 129 degrees
  2. Facial thirds: 29.5-36.5, 31.0%, 35.3%, 33.7%
  3. Eye separation ratio: 44.3-47.4, 49.5%
  4. Total facial convexity angle: 137.5-148.5 degrees, 130 degrees
  5. Facial convexity angle: 168-176 degrees, 156 degrees
  6. Cheekbone position: 81-100%, 76.8%
  7. Jaw frontal angle: 84.5-95 degrees, 106 degrees
  8. Mandibular plane angle: 15-22 degrees, 24.3 degrees
  9. (Palperable axis) Canthal Tilt: 5.2-8.5 degrees, 4 degrees
  10. Ramus to mandible ratio: 0.59-0.78, 48.2%
  11. FWHR (width / height): 1.9-2.06, 1.87
  12. Total FWHR (height / width): 1.33-1.38, 1.36
  13. Submental cervical angle: 91-110 degrees - CANNOT MEASURE
  14. Nasofrontal angle: 106-129 degrees, 121 degrees
  15. Eye spacing: 0.93-1.04, 1.08 (eyes not horizontally wide enough, can improve via higher pfl?)
  16. Upper to lower lip ratio: 1.4-2, 1.44
  17. Nasofacial angle: 30-36 degrees, 43 degrees
  18. Eyebrow setness: 90-95%, 87%
  19. Chin to philtrum: 2.05-2.55, 3.38
  20. Nasolabial angle: 94-117 degrees, 102 degrees
  21. Nasal projection: 0.55-0.68, 0.476
  22. Nasal width to height ratio: 0.62-0.88, 0.51
  23. Nose width to mouth width: 1.38-1.53, 1.29
  24. (eye width to height ratio)Eye aspect ratio: 2.8-3.6, 3.3
  25. Midface ratio: 0.93-1.01, 1.14 (midface ‘too short’, or lips are too high up. Need to increase philtrum length)
  26. Neck width: 90-100%, 87%
  27. Recession relative to Frankfurt plane, a lot
  28. Bigonial width: 85.5-92%, 89%
  29. Medial canthal angle: 20.42 degrees, 22 degrees
  30. Nasomental angle: 125-132 degrees, 116 degrees
  31. Orbital vector: Positive, Negative
  32. Nasal tip angle: 112-125 degrees, 105 degrees
  33. Gonion to mouth relationship: Gonion below mouth, yes
  34. Mentolabial angle: 108-130 degrees, 114 degrees
  35. Eyebrow tilt: 5-13 degrees, 16 degrees
  36. Brow ridge inclination: 13-24 degrees, 8.7 degrees
  37. Lower facial proportion: 30.6-34, 33.7%
  38. Bitemporal width: 84-95%, 84.6%

Understand that these ideal ratios likely stem from the population average, which further ties into the idea that the 'most average' face in a given population will be the most attractive (not average in attractiveness, average in facial features). You all seem to think you want to become 'gigachad' with every single ideal feature on your face, e.g. Hernan Drago. But the truth is, while Drago undoubtedly holds appeal and high harmony, he is simply outclassed by models such as Chico and Simon Nessma who are known for their insane harmony rather than features.

https://looksmax.org/threads/averag...rageness-1-striking-feature-is-ideal.1078922/

A plan
Ok so you understand that harmony is king and you actually don't want to become like Hernan Drago with every single striking feature under the sun.

To develop a surgerymaxxing plan, you need to find a way to combine several surgeries to essentially perfect your ratios, and in the process you will develop at least 1 or 2 striking features (in the lower third especially, it's not really possible to have perfect ratios while not having a striking jaw). Surgerymaxx based on your ratios and find a combination which both minimises the number of surgeries you need while perfecting as many ratios as possible.

Of course, some ratios such as ESR and midface are more important than others, so I will likely have to create a refined surgerymaxxing guide in the future. This is actually a good idea to implement AI, which could identify different surgical procedures put together to fix your individual scenarios. This also explains why surgerymaxxing may not work for everyone, there may simply not exist a combination of surgery to fully fix all your crucial ratios - ESR and eye spacing are the main ones here, unfixable usually without OBO.

This also explains why most people cannot simply softmaxx their way to htn/cl, since most ratios are fixed in place by bone and cannot be changed. You can get a little more appeal by clearing skin, improving hair and frauding pfl via eyelashes, but you will never truly overcome these ratios determining your harmony until you can get procedures done.

Bimax can fix a lot of lower third ratios, but it does not fix all ratios, which explains why most people getting bimax do not automatically ascend to chad as some of you here may think happens - you are simply focusing on your biggest flaw when you say 'all I need is bimax'.

anyways I may update this in the future once I've thought this out a bit more clearly, let me know if you have any thoughts regarding this.
Click to expand...
Not really, sometimes the piece you need for the puzzle is to big and it is the only option you have, you can make cuts trough some pieces to fit the bigger one or let it incomplete.

My point is that you don't always need a surgery for 1 mm or something that's so minor where it's not worth it and it may end you up in a botch, better fix what you can and what you really know it is worth it rather than risking it all.
 
psl6by2028 said:
So as most of us know, surgerymaxxing is one of the only ways to ascend multiple tiers of looks (ltn -> htn, mtn -> cl) provided you are not a fat/bloated. However, it is also common knowledge that simply getting surgeries left right and centre without a proper plan will simply result in looking uncanny and potentially even worse than being natural.

Excuse me if I make a few grammatical mistakes, I am drunk right now and can't even feel the keys I am typing on after attending the club and getting absolutely 0 play. Side note, it's crazy how much blackpill unfolds in the club when everyone resorts to their 'primal instincts' via a little shot of alcohol.

Remember one thing, HARMONY MOGS ALL

So of the 4 pillars of attractiveness: harmony, angularity, dimorphism, features, harmony is the base for all others. If you have dimorphism, features and angularity but no harmony it simply will render you an ogre, think modern Jordan Barret (albeit he still has quite a bit of harmony).

This is part of the reason natural beauty is very hard to replicate via surgery, and why many surgery-maxxing journeys end up with the patient looking uncanny, simply because they have little harmony but insane angularity and dimorphism. Features can, to an extend, compensate for a lack of harmony but even in this case the features need to work harmoniously together, think hunter eyes and strong jaw - hunter eyes with a recessed lower third would simply look stupid.

Measuring Harmony
So you might be thinking, ok sure, harmony is the most important pillar, but how can we even measure it. Muh beauty is intrinsic, muh beauty cannot be measured. No.

Ratios = Harmony. But not just the 5 or so ratios commonly touted here. You need to consider almost every ratio on your face. If even one ratio strays drastically from the population average then you will end up looking uncanny. Below is a BOTB thread with 38 important ratios on the face:
https://looksmax.org/threads/38-mos...nd-the-ideal-measurements-high-effort.956143/

Before you ratio copers come in the comments below, you need to understand that these ideal ranges are not based on muh golden ratio but rather via studies conducted to explicitly identity which ratio is most attractive, e.g. a 110 - 125 degree gonial angle is scientifically proven to be most attractive because PEOPLE THEMSELVES voted them to be. This ties into the idea that specific ratios are attractive because the host person himself was attractive rather than the ratio itself being attractive, but we will ignore that for now and assume the ratio itself is what makes them attractive.


When you start to stack nearly 40 ratios, you will likely find you don't meet nearly all of them, which makes sense given you are browsing this forum. I will reveal my own ratios to make you feel better:
Ratio, ideal range, my measurement.
  1. Gonial angle: 112-123 degrees, 129 degrees
  2. Facial thirds: 29.5-36.5, 31.0%, 35.3%, 33.7%
  3. Eye separation ratio: 44.3-47.4, 49.5%
  4. Total facial convexity angle: 137.5-148.5 degrees, 130 degrees
  5. Facial convexity angle: 168-176 degrees, 156 degrees
  6. Cheekbone position: 81-100%, 76.8%
  7. Jaw frontal angle: 84.5-95 degrees, 106 degrees
  8. Mandibular plane angle: 15-22 degrees, 24.3 degrees
  9. (Palperable axis) Canthal Tilt: 5.2-8.5 degrees, 4 degrees
  10. Ramus to mandible ratio: 0.59-0.78, 48.2%
  11. FWHR (width / height): 1.9-2.06, 1.87
  12. Total FWHR (height / width): 1.33-1.38, 1.36
  13. Submental cervical angle: 91-110 degrees - CANNOT MEASURE
  14. Nasofrontal angle: 106-129 degrees, 121 degrees
  15. Eye spacing: 0.93-1.04, 1.08 (eyes not horizontally wide enough, can improve via higher pfl?)
  16. Upper to lower lip ratio: 1.4-2, 1.44
  17. Nasofacial angle: 30-36 degrees, 43 degrees
  18. Eyebrow setness: 90-95%, 87%
  19. Chin to philtrum: 2.05-2.55, 3.38
  20. Nasolabial angle: 94-117 degrees, 102 degrees
  21. Nasal projection: 0.55-0.68, 0.476
  22. Nasal width to height ratio: 0.62-0.88, 0.51
  23. Nose width to mouth width: 1.38-1.53, 1.29
  24. (eye width to height ratio)Eye aspect ratio: 2.8-3.6, 3.3
  25. Midface ratio: 0.93-1.01, 1.14 (midface ‘too short’, or lips are too high up. Need to increase philtrum length)
  26. Neck width: 90-100%, 87%
  27. Recession relative to Frankfurt plane, a lot
  28. Bigonial width: 85.5-92%, 89%
  29. Medial canthal angle: 20.42 degrees, 22 degrees
  30. Nasomental angle: 125-132 degrees, 116 degrees
  31. Orbital vector: Positive, Negative
  32. Nasal tip angle: 112-125 degrees, 105 degrees
  33. Gonion to mouth relationship: Gonion below mouth, yes
  34. Mentolabial angle: 108-130 degrees, 114 degrees
  35. Eyebrow tilt: 5-13 degrees, 16 degrees
  36. Brow ridge inclination: 13-24 degrees, 8.7 degrees
  37. Lower facial proportion: 30.6-34, 33.7%
  38. Bitemporal width: 84-95%, 84.6%

Understand that these ideal ratios likely stem from the population average, which further ties into the idea that the 'most average' face in a given population will be the most attractive (not average in attractiveness, average in facial features). You all seem to think you want to become 'gigachad' with every single ideal feature on your face, e.g. Hernan Drago. But the truth is, while Drago undoubtedly holds appeal and high harmony, he is simply outclassed by models such as Chico and Simon Nessma who are known for their insane harmony rather than features.

https://looksmax.org/threads/averag...rageness-1-striking-feature-is-ideal.1078922/

A plan
Ok so you understand that harmony is king and you actually don't want to become like Hernan Drago with every single striking feature under the sun.

To develop a surgerymaxxing plan, you need to find a way to combine several surgeries to essentially perfect your ratios, and in the process you will develop at least 1 or 2 striking features (in the lower third especially, it's not really possible to have perfect ratios while not having a striking jaw). Surgerymaxx based on your ratios and find a combination which both minimises the number of surgeries you need while perfecting as many ratios as possible.

Of course, some ratios such as ESR and midface are more important than others, so I will likely have to create a refined surgerymaxxing guide in the future. This is actually a good idea to implement AI, which could identify different surgical procedures put together to fix your individual scenarios. This also explains why surgerymaxxing may not work for everyone, there may simply not exist a combination of surgery to fully fix all your crucial ratios - ESR and eye spacing are the main ones here, unfixable usually without OBO.

This also explains why most people cannot simply softmaxx their way to htn/cl, since most ratios are fixed in place by bone and cannot be changed. You can get a little more appeal by clearing skin, improving hair and frauding pfl via eyelashes, but you will never truly overcome these ratios determining your harmony until you can get procedures done.

Bimax can fix a lot of lower third ratios, but it does not fix all ratios, which explains why most people getting bimax do not automatically ascend to chad as some of you here may think happens - you are simply focusing on your biggest flaw when you say 'all I need is bimax'.

anyways I may update this in the future once I've thought this out a bit more clearly, let me know if you have any thoughts regarding this.
Click to expand...
You seem to know a lot better than me about ratios so could you please tell me if its even worth it to hardmaxx for me? Most of my picutres are very distorted but i found one where i did for passport photo and that one i think is the least distorted i made a morph but im not sure if its possible yet or if its worth it like if im that much better looking that its worth it to go trough with surgeries. I will attach the photo below and you let me know please.
 

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