Discussion The theory that everything is predetermined

AlexAP

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Idk if you remember him, but there was an user here called MaherGOAT who deleted his account a time ago. He supported the theory that everything in universe is predetermined. This theory is called "Superdeterminism."

On one hand, it feels scary. It means everything you do is predetermined, all results, everything. You are not in control of anything. But on the other hand, it feels a little bit like someone took away the blame of you. If everything was predetermined, it was not your fault that you ended up in this forum, and how your life has turned out in general.

So I think it's scary but comforting at the same time. Your future is already written (scary). It will not depend on what you do, it will depend on what the universe has decided long time ago will happen (comforting). But maybe this is cope and the future is not decided and we are to blame if we fuck it up ...
 
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Determinism is stupid. When Darwin said evolution is pure luck Karl Marx had an epilepsy crisis since his whole theories went to trash.
 
delusionalretard

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It was superdetermined that I should be super self-governing :feelsgood:
 
hebbewem

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It determined. You dont chose your genes and you dont chose your environment .
 
AlexAP

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Average worker in 1800s was just a slave and most people dont actually own anything tbh. Even in current society elections are %100 useless since presidents dont have any real power.
Marxism was an utter failure. Workers had it 1000 times better in countries where the Marxists didn't take over.

Elections are useless because the people don't want too much change or just don't care.
 
AlexAP

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It determined. You dont chose your genes and you dont chose your environment .
What's the difference between genetics and environment?

Environment is how others treat you. But how others treat you is dependent on their character/personality, which is dependent on their genetics. And how you react to how others treat you is dependent on your genetics too.
 
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Marxism was an utter failure. Workers had it 1000 times better in countries where the Marxists didn't take over.
It is because of Russia tho Russia is shitty on itself. If revolution happened in USA or UK it would work perfectly. Yeah life would be too boring but it would be better for average person.
 
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ThatDjangoWalk

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This is a very long subject, much more than what you would imagine.

Determinism and Free Will, there are many different theories and there is nothing close to consensus.

Islamic scholars have spoken about this a lot, and i say A LOT, discussed about it, debated it, etc

In Islam, in general, we believe in compatibilism between Determinism and also Free Will, Determinism being the Qadr of Allah (Decree of Allah i.e everything is written and decided by Him) and also the Free Will of the human being, which, at the same time, is just.

Take it as if you are in a swimming pool, you are jumping and at the same time someone pushed you, the one who jumped will say it was his decision and the one who pushed will say it was his decision, in reality it was the decision of both. There is an additive which is the swimming pool and the scenario in general, which in this case was created by Allah, He Is The Most Just, and made forbidden for Himself to commit ad-dulm (oppression), therefore He created The Most Just of scenarios possible in which both coexist.

By the way i don't believe Free Will can be proven materialistically, at least with the tools we have now.

And there were many schools of thoughts among Islam (some are extinct like the mu'tazila), other religions, in science, etc, about this matter, especially muslim philosophers have contributed a lot to it. I have never seen what makes it so special, but there are people who are obsessed with this, i never understood why, there are philosophers who died for it if i'm not mistaken. I mean to be honest there are philosophers who suffered a lot just because they didn't know how to prove to others their own consciousness, what can i say... don't seek the validity of human beings, the outcome is dumb, this forum is literally made for seeking the validity of woman which is sad.

Don't spend much time here to everyone reading, honestly and from my heart, it is a waste of time.
 
O

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Idk if you remember him, but there was an user here called MaherGOAT who deleted his account a time ago. He supported the theory that everything in universe is predetermined. This theory is called "Superdeterminism."

On one hand, it feels scary. It means everything you do is predetermined, all results, everything. You are not in control of anything. But on the other hand, it feels a little bit like someone took away the blame of you. If everything was predetermined, it was not your fault that you ended up in this forum, and how your life has turned out in general.

So I think it's scary but comforting at the same time. Your future is already written (scary). It will not depend on what you do, it will depend on what the universe has decided long time ago will happen (comforting). But maybe this is cope and the future is not decided and we are to blame if we fuck it up ...
It’s not scientific. Determinism is not the behavior of super tiny particles according to today’s science.

It’s nothing more than a believe with a bit more scientific reasoning than religion.
 
AlexAP

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This is a very long subject, much more than what you would imagine.

Determinism and Free Will, there are many different theories and there is nothing close to consensus.

Islamic scholars have spoken about this a lot, and i say A LOT, discussed about it, debated it, etc

In Islam, in general, we believe in compatibilism between Determinism and also Free Will, Determinism being the Qadr of Allah (Decree of Allah i.e everything is written and decided by Him) and also the Free Will of the human being, which, at the same time, is just.

Take it as if you are in a swimming pool, you are jumping and at the same time someone pushed you, the one who jumped will say it was his decision and the one who pushed will say it was his decision, in reality it was the decision of both. There is an additive which is the swimming pool and the scenario in general, which in this case was created by Allah, He Is The Most Just, and made forbidden for Himself to commit ad-dulm (oppression), therefore He created The Most Just of scenarios possible in which both coexist.

By the way i don't believe Free Will can be proven materialistically, at least with the tools we have now.

And there were many schools of thoughts among Islam (some are extinct like the mu'tazila), other religions, in science, etc, about this matter, especially muslim philosophers have contributed a lot to it. I have never seen what makes it so special, but there are people who are obsessed with this, i never understood why, there are philosophers who died for it if i'm not mistaken. I mean to be honest there are philosophers who suffered a lot just because they didn't know how to prove to others their own consciousness, what can i say... don't seek the validity of human beings, the outcome is dumb, this forum is literally made for seeking the validity of woman which is sad.

Don't spend much time here to everyone reading, honestly and from my heart, it is a waste of time.
I didn't read much about the philosophy about it. I would have read the modern philsophers, not the Islamic scholars as I'm atheist. But I didn't find it rewarding enough, because the books aren't written for the layman and I'm not well-studied in epistemology, etc.

It's true that it doesn't make sense to think about it a lot, as you can't change it. It can lift some weight off your shoulders to know that it's not all in your control though. But you will never know.
 
AlexAP

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Autistic theory for depressed incels that are just too lazy to even try improving at the first place
MaherGOAT slayed and had a gf and still believed it.
 
D

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i think everything is random
 
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Idk if you remember him, but there was an user here called MaherGOAT who deleted his account a time ago. He supported the theory that everything in universe is predetermined. This theory is called "Superdeterminism."

On one hand, it feels scary. It means everything you do is predetermined, all results, everything. You are not in control of anything. But on the other hand, it feels a little bit like someone took away the blame of you. If everything was predetermined, it was not your fault that you ended up in this forum, and how your life has turned out in general.

So I think it's scary but comforting at the same time. Your future is already written (scary). It will not depend on what you do, it will depend on what the universe has decided long time ago will happen (comforting). But maybe this is cope and the future is not decided and we are to blame if we fuck it up ...
Nothing new
"The Lord has created and balanced all things and has fixed their destinies and guided them (Surah 87:2-3) .
 
Deleted member 6963

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To me it makes sense, that there are many predetermined outcomes depending on the decisions you make.
For example there are simply things that are beyond your control. You can influence the odds of this "thing" happening though.
Similar concepts exist in religion, in Islam for example.
For example people pray that they'll pass their exam if god wills. Doesn't mean they won't have to do the work, but if they do everything in their power, they won't have to blame themselves.
 
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ThatDjangoWalk

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I didn't read much about the philosophy about it. I would have read the modern philsophers, not the Islamic scholars as I'm atheist. But I didn't find it rewarding enough, because the books aren't written for the layman and I'm not well-studied in epistemology, etc.
Man, Islamic scholars works are not just useful for the muslims, they are useful for non muslims as well and they have been the base of many of the most famous western philosophers.

Immanuel Kant for example started his thesis by saying "Bismillah Ar Rahman Ar Raheem" which means "In the Name of Allah The Most Gracious The Most Merciful".

Is like the scientific method, one of his most important contributors if not the most important was Ibn Al Haytham, and
according to him, it was based on a assumption he got from Al Qur'an; that there is truth embedded in nature and that this truth can be found by repeated testing.

For example, Allah says (interpretation of the meaning): “You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.”

Are you going to reject the scientific method because of it? Of course not.

Every philosopher has his own ideology.
Rosseau said: "I consulted the philosophers. I turned over their books, and found them vain, dogmatical and dictatorial - even in their pretended skepticism. Ignorant of nothing, yet proving nothing, but ridiculing one another instead"

Philosophers are just human beings, don't treat them like deities or something. They have the same desires, needs, etc as everyone else including me and you, nothing special, you learn more from your mother than from a philosopher. I personally recommend older philosophers than the ones of today, they are a lot more genuine to me, but i'm no expert. The ones of today a lot of them i feel like they have too many commodities, many muslim philosophers and others for example while they were writing their works, they were fighting wars, leading important matters, etc, nowadays some random person who writes ""technical"" words but has never seen someone being punched or has never been sick acts like he knows everything.
It's true that it doesn't make sense to think about it a lot, as you can't change it. It can lift some weight off your shoulders to know that it's not all in your control though. But you will never know.
That opinion to me as a muslim kinda make sense, since i believe in this hadith

Suhayb ibn Sinān Ar-Rūmi (may Allah be pleased with him) reported that the Prophet (may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him) said: "How wonderful the affair of the believer is! Indeed, all of his affairs are good for him. This is for no one but the believer. If something good happens to him, he is grateful to Allah, which is good for him. And if something bad happens to him, he has patience, which is good for him."

I agree, there are certain weights that are lifted with this notion, but one must be aware of the limits. This is where all the objective and subjective morality issue starts, this is almost a never ending road.
 
SubhumanCurrycel

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yea this is called "fatalism"
Not just that everything is predetermined but also your consciousness and how you react to your environment.
 
thegoat

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Brain is literally a machine with outputs based on the inputs. It's all physics, the motion of particles after the big bang can be predicted ad infinitum, we're no exception. The only thing that might disprove determinism is the randomness of quantum mechanics. Either way we dont have free will
 
OverSinceBirth

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I'm a 5'7 socially maladjusted westernised Indian who's average looking. If there was anything that was gonna happen, it was ending up on this forum.
 
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blah blah blah philosophy is a waste of time
 
John124

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Idk if you remember him, but there was an user here called MaherGOAT who deleted his account a time ago. He supported the theory that everything in universe is predetermined. This theory is called "Superdeterminism."

On one hand, it feels scary. It means everything you do is predetermined, all results, everything. You are not in control of anything. But on the other hand, it feels a little bit like someone took away the blame of you. If everything was predetermined, it was not your fault that you ended up in this forum, and how your life has turned out in general.

So I think it's scary but comforting at the same time. Your future is already written (scary). It will not depend on what you do, it will depend on what the universe has decided long time ago will happen (comforting). But maybe this is cope and the future is not decided and we are to blame if we fuck it up ...
I occasionally have dreams that predict the future.

I obviously keep this to myself or only talk about it anonymously because people will think I am schizo even though I have experienced things which indisputably prove this ability. It's not just me who has this, my grandfather's brother had it and my brother gets them occasionally. He used that ability during WW2 to avoid dying (would get up in the middle of the night and get his platoon to rearrange their positions and then see the position they were just in get shelled by artillery).

I didn't know my brother got them but he recently told me he did, and it allowed him to make a 10x on a random crypto pump ($20k -> $200k).

It's not in our control what we see so don't ask me to predict specific stock/crypto movements. I can tell you there will be a hyperinflation panic and a gold bull market but it will get cut short by some major news announcement (interest rate hike?).

There will also be a coin that flips Bitcoin and I'm pretty sure it's Avalanche (AVAX) which I have been holding since $5.

They are never super clear because how it works is I experience a short moment in time (5 seconds or less) sometime in the future. Often they are very mundane and I get them pretty infrequently (once or twice a year).

I should also mention that that appears to be the same as what this book describes although I haven't read it yet.
 
Reckless Turtle

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What's the difference between genetics and environment?

Environment is how others treat you. But how others treat you is dependent on their character/personality, which is dependent on their genetics. And how you react to how others treat you is dependent on your genetics too.
Genetics are technically a component of the environment. But within the scope of this discussion, the environment is every factor outside of the genetic baseline. So yes, everything is determined on the basis of genetics and environment.
 
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MaherGOAT slayed and had a gf and still believed it.
this guy literally trusts every basement dweller who makes fantastic stories from rank of J.K. Rowlings. When the OP was 8, he definitely got into cars for a lollipop.

9fb5392a6d63ce38bcd4cfb3b63604f8.jpg
 
LooksOverAll

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Yeah bro, ever since the big bang everything is completely determined by the laws of physics. Just sit back, relax, and try to enjoy the ride. It's not your fault.
 
Reckless Turtle

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Brain is literally a machine with outputs based on the inputs. It's all physics, the motion of particles after the big bang can be predicted ad infinitum, we're no exception. The only thing that might disprove determinism is the randomness of quantum mechanics. Either way we dont have free will
Quantum mechanics would still be an environmental aspect which is determinism.
 
Uglybrazilian

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Determinism is stupid. When Darwin said evolution is pure luck Karl Marx had an epilepsy crisis since his whole theories went to trash.
Nigga WTF
How does that debunks anything Marx has said and more than that, when did Darwin said evolution was pure luck? There is no such a thing as luck in the universe, natural selection is an algorithm like any other, plus Marx himself was a strong believer of darwin's ideas.
 
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Nigga WTF
How does that debunks anything Marx has said and more than that, when did Darwin said evolution was pure luck? There is no such a thing as luck in the universe, natural selection is an algorithm like any other, plus Marx himself was a strong believer of darwin's ideas.
Jfl what i said are actual things happened between Marx and Darwin back then what u say in 2021 doesnt matter. And evolution is "luck" it is survival of fittest not strongest not smartest not fastest. Nothing is predeterminated as Marx said. And Marx called evolution bullshit when darwin sent him his book since it shits his theories and ethics he didnt believe in evolution.
 
looksmaxxer234

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I occasionally have dreams that predict the future.

I obviously keep this to myself or only talk about it anonymously because people will think I am schizo even though I have experienced things which indisputably prove this ability. It's not just me who has this, my grandfather's brother had it and my brother gets them occasionally. He used that ability during WW2 to avoid dying (would get up in the middle of the night and get his platoon to rearrange their positions and then see the position they were just in get shelled by artillery).

I didn't know my brother got them but he recently told me he did, and it allowed him to make a 10x on a random crypto pump ($20k -> $200k).

It's not in our control what we see so don't ask me to predict specific stock/crypto movements. I can tell you there will be a hyperinflation panic and a gold bull market but it will get cut short by some major news announcement (interest rate hike?).

There will also be a coin that flips Bitcoin and I'm pretty sure it's Avalanche (AVAX) which I have been holding since $5.

They are never super clear because how it works is I experience a short moment in time (5 seconds or less) sometime in the future. Often they are very mundane and I get them pretty infrequently (once or twice a year).

I should also mention that that appears to be the same as what this book describes although I haven't read it yet.
You’re a wizard Harry
 
Eduardo DOV

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they say god knows everything, even the future...

Eeven if it is "preset" it passes for us as if it weren't, so whatever. You just can't be paralyzed with this information.
 
Bubarik

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I'd go along with the chaos theory. We definetely live in the world with underlying determenisting laws governing it, physics and all, but many of the natural proceccess are too unbalanced and fragile, so sometimes a little push in some direction can result in a completely unpredictable behaviour.
 
Uglybrazilian

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Jfl what i said are actual things happened between Marx and Darwin back then what u say in 2021 doesnt matter. And evolution is "luck" it is survival of fittest not strongest not smartest not fastest. Nothing is predeterminated as Marx said. And Marx called evolution bullshit when darwin sent him his book since it shits his theories and ethics he didnt believe in evolution.
You are very misinformed
Marx never ever called the evolution bullshit neither he was an evolution denier, in his letters to Engels he indeed stated that Darwin's ideas could be used by the burgeoise to enforce their domination which indeed happened and continues to happening(the far right are the most obsessed with so called biological hierarchies), nevertheless he still finished saying "nothing ever gives me greater pleasure than to have my name linked onto Darwin's. His wonderfull work makes my own impregnable. Darwin may not know it, but he belongs to the Social Revolution"


Also Marx never ever Said everything is predetermined or shit like that I unironically dont know how the fuck do you come up with shit like that
 
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You are very misinformed
Marx never ever called the evolution bullshit neither he was an evolution denier, in his letters to Engels he indeed stated that Darwin's ideas could be used by the burgeoise to enforce their domination which indeed happened and continues to happening(the far right are the most obsessed with so called biological hierarchies), nevertheless he still finished saying "nothing ever gives me greater pleasure than to have my name linked onto Darwin's. His wonderfull work makes my own impregnable. Darwin may not know it, but he belongs to the Social Revolution"


Also Marx never ever Said everything is predetermined or shit like that I unironically dont know how the fuck do you come up with shit like that
Btw Nazis are more anti rich than modern day socialists. Hitler working for bourgoise is one of the most retarded leftist takes.
 
Uglybrazilian

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Btw Nazis are more anti rich than modern day socialists. Hitler working for bourgoise is one of the most retarded leftist takes.
Nazis are not against the rich they are actually against jews, which are mostly rich

Hitler, Mussolini etc all fascist leaders are just puppets used by the rich to save capitalism from a social revolution, when the economy is bad the masses revolt against the elites, so its necessary to find an ideology that protects the workers a little bit more but still maintains the status quo and big business exploitation, thats what is called nazism
 
Nobagger

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Tbh, history is predetermined after the fact. Everything that happened in history is a fact, and when you read about something, you know what will happen next. That will also be the case for us. When you watch old videos or look at old photos, you know what will happen next, but when you watch the video/photo, you look at the persons there in their present, and the things to come had not yet happened, but you know what happened because it was meant to be and that fact cannot be changed. The way of the universe is weird, but superdeterminism is something that could make sense. But then again, you could decide here and now if you want to take a walk, or decide to remain seated in your home. It’s a decision. Who’s to say that decision was predetermined?
 

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