Thinking of cancelling trimax plans so philtrum doesn't lengthen

[koops]

My philtrum is 16mm which is basically the upper limit of acceptable. With bimax it has the potential to go to shit though, it could very easily end up being 17mm or in an especially bad scenario even 18mm. I know dudes will be like "oh well just get a lip lift then!" but it seems like lip lift is more good in theory than practice for men, despite fixing such a common and brutal issue it has almost 0 results on this forum, which makes me think that results look poor most of the time. If it were really so easy we'd see a bunch of long phil dudes save up a measly 3k (cheaper than rent in some cities ) and ascend left and right all over the forum.

When I was lean (I'm like 25% BF nowadays rip) I actually had a decent front, was able to slay (height halo) etc., so clearly I was not ugly despite my profile. I'm just so worried in the process of fixing my side I will completely nuke my front. At least with my current philtrum length I could feasibly get it to 15mm with a simple bit of lip filler, since my upper lip is pretty small.

Both mandible and maxilla are recessed by about 6mm-8mm in my case. I can at least get a genio for the recessed mandible part of me. Yes my e-line will be even more fucked, but better to have a fucked up e-line than a philtrum that is pushing the 2cm mark. Recessed LF1 area sucks but it still might be better than a long philtrum.

I am still early enough in my orthodontic treatment that I can switch from doing a surgery setup to just fixing my crossbite + crowding. What do you guys think? Am I overplaying the philtrum lengthening of the surgery?

 

[Animepilled]

Did your ortho say you need the surgery for crossbite?

 

[koops]

Did your ortho say you need the surgery for crossbite?

My dental situation is solvable through orthodontics alone. The 2 surgeons I've met with said they recommend bimax over genio but the orthodontist recommended me genio only

 

[Animepilled]

My dental situation is solvable through orthodontics alone. The 2 surgeons I've met with said they recommend bimax over genio but the orthodontist recommended me genio only

would you mind showing your side

 

[koops]

would you mind showing your side

Yea sure. Don't roast me for being a bit fat rn tho (or maybe do so I fucking lose it already )

 

[Animepilled]

Yea sure. Don't roast me for being a bit fat rn tho (or maybe do so I fucking lose it already )

yeah it looks alright. Do you have asymmetry from the front?

 

[koops]

yeah it looks alright. Do you have asymmetry from the front?

A little, slight jaw cant of about a degree and one side of my jaw is a little wider than the other. Outside of that the surgeons said I was surprisingly symmetrical

 

[Animepilled]

A little, slight jaw cant of about a degree and one side of my jaw is a little wider than the other. Outside of that the surgeons said I was surprisingly symmetrical

yeah honestly unless you need it for function i wouldn't do it. If your crossbite is bad and the doctors recommend surgery then yeah. But purely from aesthetics standpoint no.

 

[Animepilled]

Don't worry about philtrum tho if you decide to do it it's all bs

 

[koops]

Don't worry about philtrum tho if you decide to do it it's all bs

I mean it has objectively been recorded to lengthen it. I def wish it didn't, but it seems to me like the lefort movement does indeed make it longer

yeah honestly unless you need it for function i wouldn't do it. If your crossbite is bad and the doctors recommend surgery then yeah. But purely from aesthetics standpoint no.

I guess so, but unfortunately I'm in a bad spot where my recession at the chin point is big enough to be a noticeable (but not extreme) deformity. So I have to do SOMETHING. But when I try to morph what a genioplasty looks like, it makes me realize I'll just end up with a big mentofold and caved-in lips like I'm Moonman. Mind you my morphs are the most terrible looking you'll see, but the general direction is what I mean.

Really feels like I am stuck between a rock and a hard place here. Might just have to suck it up and become a philtrumcel

 

[compost_]

ur Philtrum doesn’t even look too bad to me tbh since u have good chin height w it but maybe im just retarded

If I were u I would jus stick w it as long as u have the money n nothing to really stop u but idk maybe thats jus me speaking from the pov of my own situation

N there’s honestly no way to definitively tell exactly how soft tissues will turn out after surgery so it jus depends if ur willing to risk that one area for the improvement of the others

I wouldn’t wanna settle but the genio doesn’t look bad

 

[vermicel]

ur Philtrum doesn’t even look too bad to me tbh since u have good chin height

Agreed.
Philtrum doesn't look excessively long in the front profile picture. Current chin to philtrum ratio is 2.1-2.2, within ideal range. Moreover, bimax could improve lip support and fix some of the upper lip asymmetry, and genio could also make the chin taller.
Philtrum certainly doesn't look long in the side profile picture, quite the opposite, as it is currently squeezed inbetween a big ol' schnoz and a tall chin with extra long mentolabial fold (nearly as long as the philtrum itself !).

If I were u I would jus stick w it

Agreed again. @koops you should definitely go ahead with that trimax.
Follow it up with a complementary rhino and you'll be good ; some work/grafting around the anterior nasal spine & columella will probably be necessary.
Also don't neglect softmaxxes ; besides getting rid of excessive fat, you can also improve your skin quality (e.g. refine texture and treat the inflammation around the alar folds), eyelashes, eyebrows, and haircut/grooming.
By the way, I wonder if a fat graft could create the illusion of a chin that is attached higher by injecting it strategically in the mentolabial fold. This is not a priority at this stage, of course.

Morph roughly simulating a trimax + rhino + softmaxxes :

 

[diarrhetic]

The main way a philtrum can wind up looking longer after a bimax is if the surgeon moves the upper jaw upward to fix a gummy smile. When the bone moves up, the lip loses some of its structural support and drops, creating the illusion of a longer philtrum. Massive post-op swelling can also weigh the lip down temporarily, and pushing the jaw too far forward can flatten out its natural curve. To stop this from happening, surgeons use 3D digital planning beforehand to make sure they aren't over-correcting the bone. Then, during the actual surgery, they use those specialized stitches we talked about—like the V-Y closure—to bunch the tissue together, which keeps the lip full and prevents it from lengthening or thinning out. Anyways, i think that your philtrum doesn't look that big.

 

[koops]

Agreed.
Philtrum doesn't look excessively long in the front profile picture. Current chin to philtrum ratio is 2.1-2.2, within ideal range. Moreover, bimax could improve lip support and fix some of the upper lip asymmetry, and genio could also make the chin taller.
Philtrum certainly doesn't look long in the side profile picture, quite the opposite, as it is currently squeezed inbetween a big ol' schnoz and a tall chin with extra long mentolabial fold (nearly as long as the philtrum itself !).



Agreed again. @koops you should definitely go ahead with that trimax.
Follow it up with a complementary rhino and you'll be good ; some work/grafting around the anterior nasal spine & columella will probably be necessary.
Also don't neglect softmaxxes ; besides getting rid of excessive fat, you can also improve your skin quality (e.g. refine texture and treat the inflammation around the alar folds), eyelashes, eyebrows, and haircut/grooming.
By the way, I wonder if a fat graft could create the illusion of a chin that is attached higher by injecting it strategically in the mentolabial fold. This is not a priority at this stage, of course.

Morph roughly simulating a trimax + rhino + softmaxxes :

View attachment 5161336

Thanks man, looks really good. Rhino was always something I was gonna do within a year after so it's cool to see it here. Much better morph than I ever could have made. Kind of funny how, based on what I know of my anatomy, my chin/jaw is probably only moving forwards like 6-7mm here. What a different a little bit can make. Funnily the fat loss is probably the biggest thing here lmao, time to stop my descent into obesity and get lean again

Also you guys are right about my philtrum, I don't think it's notably long upon retrospect, I think I was just BDDmaxxing at that time

 

[Animepilled]

Agreed.
Philtrum doesn't look excessively long in the front profile picture. Current chin to philtrum ratio is 2.1-2.2, within ideal range. Moreover, bimax could improve lip support and fix some of the upper lip asymmetry, and genio could also make the chin taller.
Philtrum certainly doesn't look long in the side profile picture, quite the opposite, as it is currently squeezed inbetween a big ol' schnoz and a tall chin with extra long mentolabial fold (nearly as long as the philtrum itself !).



Agreed again. @koops you should definitely go ahead with that trimax.
Follow it up with a complementary rhino and you'll be good ; some work/grafting around the anterior nasal spine & columella will probably be necessary.
Also don't neglect softmaxxes ; besides getting rid of excessive fat, you can also improve your skin quality (e.g. refine texture and treat the inflammation around the alar folds), eyelashes, eyebrows, and haircut/grooming.
By the way, I wonder if a fat graft could create the illusion of a chin that is attached higher by injecting it strategically in the mentolabial fold. This is not a priority at this stage, of course.

Morph roughly simulating a trimax + rhino + softmaxxes :

View attachment 5161336

looks mogger. But it's one thing to morph and another to get the same result on the operating table. Hope you get it.

 

[compost_]

Thanks man, looks really good. Rhino was always something I was gonna do within a year after so it's cool to see it here. Much better morph than I ever could have made. Kind of funny how, based on what I know of my anatomy, my chin/jaw is probably only moving forwards like 6-7mm here. What a different a little bit can make. Funnily the fat loss is probably the biggest thing here lmao, time to stop my descent into obesity and get lean again

Also you guys are right about my philtrum, I don't think it's notably long upon retrospect, I think I was just BDDmaxxing at that time

Happens to everyone

Smts im like fuck I’m so ugly surgery won’t even be able to fix me n then smts im like I don’t even need surgery I look so good lol

 

[vermicel]

based on what I know of my anatomy, my chin/jaw is probably only moving forwards like 6-7mm here. What a different a little bit can make.

~7 mm forward for the upper lip
~5.5 mm forward for the lower lip
~10 mm for the pogonion

Only the lower maxilla is moved significantly (I believe anything above 5 mm is considered a large movement ; correct me if I'm wrong).

Facial convexity is ideal in the "after" (168°).

Lip assessment (S-line) is close to ideal.

If we draw a perfectly straight line downward from the nasion, it almost aligns with the pogonion.

Funnily the fat loss is probably the biggest thing here

Yes and no. You will see quite a few bimax/trimax results showing a vastly improved cervicomental angle, even when no fat loss occurred post-op.
In your case, a 10 mm advancement would certainly improve the transition from the chin to the submental region, and would make you appear leaner. Of course, if you lean out on top of that, the improvement will be even more dramatic (as depicted in the morph, more or less). That said, the submental region can sometimes store persistent fat, despite orthognathic treatment and a leaner physique ; that's when a liposuction or a submentoplasty may become relevant to finish things off.

it's one thing to morph and another to get the same result on the operating table

That goes without saying. I agree 100 % with this principle.
Yet, as you can read at the top of this post, the movements simulated in the morph are nothing extreme, especially for the mandible & chin. The simulated rhino is also basic : moderate tip rotation, dorsal hump removal ; the only (?) tricky part would be potential cartilage grafting to the ANS & columella.
I don't think the morph simulates anything really difficult to achieve or out of the ordinary. But feel free to let me know if you think the opposite.

 

[Prøphet]

The main way a philtrum can wind up looking longer after a bimax is if the surgeon moves the upper jaw upward to fix a gummy smile. When the bone moves up, the lip loses some of its structural support and drops, creating the illusion of a longer philtrum. Massive post-op swelling can also weigh the lip down temporarily, and pushing the jaw too far forward can flatten out its natural curve. To stop this from happening, surgeons use 3D digital planning beforehand to make sure they aren't over-correcting the bone. Then, during the actual surgery, they use those specialized stitches we talked about—like the V-Y closure—to bunch the tissue together, which keeps the lip full and prevents it from lengthening or thinning out. Anyways, i think that your philtrum doesn't look that big.

Thank you bro Ive been saying this forever, people misunderstand what a downgraft actually does

 

[CopeTilliRope]

The main way a philtrum can wind up looking longer after a bimax is if the surgeon moves the upper jaw upward to fix a gummy smile. When the bone moves up, the lip loses some of its structural support and drops, creating the illusion of a longer philtrum. Massive post-op swelling can also weigh the lip down temporarily, and pushing the jaw too far forward can flatten out its natural curve. To stop this from happening, surgeons use 3D digital planning beforehand to make sure they aren't over-correcting the bone. Then, during the actual surgery, they use those specialized stitches we talked about—like the V-Y closure—to bunch the tissue together, which keeps the lip full and prevents it from lengthening or thinning out. Anyways, i think that your philtrum doesn't look that big.

YOU seem extremelly knowledgable is there any reliable way to shorten a long midface/ soft tissues and philtrum lenght in 2k26? most the surgeon i consulted were so vague and told me ccw= impaction at the best will preserve the original lenght but there was a risk of the midface philtrum actually getting longer. thx

 

[AustrianMogger]

My philtrum is 16mm which is basically the upper limit of acceptable. With bimax it has the potential to go to shit though, it could very easily end up being 17mm or in an especially bad scenario even 18mm. I know dudes will be like "oh well just get a lip lift then!" but it seems like lip lift is more good in theory than practice for men, despite fixing such a common and brutal issue it has almost 0 results on this forum, which makes me think that results look poor most of the time. If it were really so easy we'd see a bunch of long phil dudes save up a measly 3k (cheaper than rent in some cities ) and ascend left and right all over the forum.

When I was lean (I'm like 25% BF nowadays rip) I actually had a decent front, was able to slay (height halo) etc., so clearly I was not ugly despite my profile. I'm just so worried in the process of fixing my side I will completely nuke my front. At least with my current philtrum length I could feasibly get it to 15mm with a simple bit of lip filler, since my upper lip is pretty small.

Both mandible and maxilla are recessed by about 6mm-8mm in my case. I can at least get a genio for the recessed mandible part of me. Yes my e-line will be even more fucked, but better to have a fucked up e-line than a philtrum that is pushing the 2cm mark. Recessed LF1 area sucks but it still might be better than a long philtrum.

I am still early enough in my orthodontic treatment that I can switch from doing a surgery setup to just fixing my crossbite + crowding. What do you guys think? Am I overplaying the philtrum lengthening of the surgery?

my philtrum is like 2.5cm you good

 

[diarrhetic]

YOU seem extremelly knowledgable is there any reliable way to shorten a long midface/ soft tissues and philtrum lenght in 2k26? most the surgeon i consulted were so vague and told me ccw= impaction at the best will preserve the original lenght but there was a risk of the midface philtrum actually getting longer. thx

When the upper jaw is advanced or rotated counterclockwise (CCW), the anterior nasal spine moves forward and upward. As a result the appearance of the nose from the front look shorter with the potential bad side of increasing nostril show.Are you planning vertical impaction, or forward movement of the jaws ? At the end of the day I am just an autist on an incel forum you should consult a plastic surgeon or even better a Dual trained surgeon to get advise

 

[CopeTilliRope]

When the upper jaw is advanced or rotated counterclockwise (CCW), the anterior nasal spine moves forward and upward. As a result the appearance of the nose from the front look shorter with the potential bad side of increasing nostril show.Are you planning vertical impaction, or forward movement of the jaws ? At the end of the day I am just an autist on an incel forum you should consult a plastic surgeon or even better a Dual trained surgeon to get advise

so no real soft tissue shortening when it comes from philtrum lenght? i consulted a ton of french maxface and they all have a different answer tbh and i never seen a satisfying midface results shortening post bimax so i guess its no doable at that moment

 

[IDontBlameAnybody]

YOU seem extremelly knowledgable is there any reliable way to shorten a long midface/ soft tissues and philtrum lenght in 2k26? most the surgeon i consulted were so vague and told me ccw= impaction at the best will preserve the original lenght but there was a risk of the midface philtrum actually getting longer. thx

I've seen some big ass lefort 1 movements where philtrum remained almost unchanged, but maybe looked a very tad bit longer due to the nose becoming more upturned and revealing some of the philtrum. Most of the nasty philtrum lengthening results I've seen have came from downgrafting. I'm not saying that downgrafting is something evil that noone should ever do.

Someone mentioned that lefort 1 impaction might lengthen the philtrum, but that's something I've never ever heard of myself. It usually is known from doing the opposite - very slightly shortening it. Some people who get impaction will have a shorter looking midface after the procedure, but if you have a lengthy ass horse-like midface, impaction can only do so much. But hey, I only know so much, maybe the dude who mentioned impaction lengthening the midface has seen it with his own eyes, I personally have never seen something like this

 

[zemult]

I'd do it you look like a clear candidate. Don't let autism hold you back

 

[duduboy]

Just do compactation

 

[diarrhetic]

so no real soft tissue shortening when it comes from philtrum lenght? i consulted a ton of french maxface and they all have a different answer tbh and i never seen a satisfying midface results shortening post bimax so i guess its no doable at that moment

It's possible but very unlikely that the philtrum gets longer. There are only two scenarios with CCW where the philtrum elongates. Firstly, when you advance the maxilla forward, it pushes out against the upper lip. This horizontal tension acts like a curtain rod pulling fabric forward, which can pull the lip tight and actually cause the philtrum to slightly stretch or lengthen horizontally while losing vertical thickness.To avoid this the surgeon can perform a V-Y closure during the bimax.And secondly a change to the angle of the base of the nose which results to an upwards rotation of the nasal tip which can alter the perception of where the philtrum begins and ends.To avoid this the surgeon can perform a V-Y closure or a nasalis muscle reattachment during the bimax. If you want to read about these procedures, look them up on PubMed .I wish you the best of luck.

​

 

[CopeTilliRope]

It's possible but very unlikely that the philtrum gets longer. There are only two scenarios with CCW where the philtrum elongates. Firstly, when you advance the maxilla forward, it pushes out against the upper lip. This horizontal tension acts like a curtain rod pulling fabric forward, which can pull the lip tight and actually cause the philtrum to slightly stretch or lengthen horizontally while losing vertical thickness.To avoid this the surgeon can perform a V-Y closure during the bimax.And secondly a change to the angle of the base of the nose which results to an upwards rotation of the nasal tip which can alter the perception of where the philtrum begins and ends.To avoid this the surgeon can perform a V-Y closure or a nasalis muscle reattachment during the bimax. If you want to read about these procedures, look them up on PubMed .I wish you the best of luck.

​

thx for that very indepth answer . i will look it up . so realisticaly i assume a lip lift would be my best bet if i want to target philtrum length on its own and not gamble with some kind of specific lefort/impaction

 

[CopeTilliRope]

I've seen some big ass lefort 1 movements where philtrum remained almost unchanged, but maybe looked a very tad bit longer due to the nose becoming more upturned and revealing some of the philtrum. Most of the nasty philtrum lengthening results I've seen have came from downgrafting. I'm not saying that downgrafting is something evil that noone should ever do.

Someone mentioned that lefort 1 impaction might lengthen the philtrum, but that's something I've never ever heard of myself. It usually is known from doing the opposite - very slightly shortening it. Some people who get impaction will have a shorter looking midface after the procedure, but if you have a lengthy ass horse-like midface, impaction can only do so much. But hey, I only know so much, maybe the dude who mentioned impaction lengthening the midface has seen it with his own eyes, I personally have never seen something like this

exactly i saw some reputable french surgeon often mentionned on jawsurgeries forum and the dude told me impaction+ ccw would actually lengthen my philtrum so i was even more confused. apparently its very hard to accurately predict how soft tissues do retract post op. not sure if i want to take that gamble an go for djs just for trying to fix my lond midface/philtrum as even them are not sure it will change from a front view

so far i never saw any before and after results resulting in a cosmetically significant frontal shortening change ( excepted that brazillian case posted here ) but the person had some crazy upper jaw advancement and some weird type of rotation that is not feasible for non syndromic ppl

 

[diarrhetic]

thx for that very indepth answer . i will look it up . so realisticaly i assume a lip lift would be my best bet if i want to target philtrum length on its own and not gamble with some kind of specific lefort/impaction

Lip lift is probably your best bet to shorten the philtrum. However be careful if you have big lips because it can give a ''gay'' look. Do no do a bimax unless you also want it for the functional purposes or because you are recessed .

 

[CopeTilliRope]

Lip lift is probably your best bet to shorten the philtrum. However be careful if you have big lips because it can give a ''gay'' look. Do no do a bimax unless you also want it for the functional purposes or because you are recessed .

thanks man . i am a weird case tbh as i have perfect bite but my mandible is recessed my main issue is the long midface/philtrum . i could fraud with genio for the side profile but it looks kinda off . my main goal was to shorten the face from a front view but bimax doesnt seems worth at all in my case .

 

[ScientiaAeterna]

Agreed.
Philtrum doesn't look excessively long in the front profile picture. Current chin to philtrum ratio is 2.1-2.2, within ideal range. Moreover, bimax could improve lip support and fix some of the upper lip asymmetry, and genio could also make the chin taller.
Philtrum certainly doesn't look long in the side profile picture, quite the opposite, as it is currently squeezed inbetween a big ol' schnoz and a tall chin with extra long mentolabial fold (nearly as long as the philtrum itself !).



Agreed again. @koops you should definitely go ahead with that trimax.
Follow it up with a complementary rhino and you'll be good ; some work/grafting around the anterior nasal spine & columella will probably be necessary.
Also don't neglect softmaxxes ; besides getting rid of excessive fat, you can also improve your skin quality (e.g. refine texture and treat the inflammation around the alar folds), eyelashes, eyebrows, and haircut/grooming.
By the way, I wonder if a fat graft could create the illusion of a chin that is attached higher by injecting it strategically in the mentolabial fold. This is not a priority at this stage, of course.

Morph roughly simulating a trimax + rhino + softmaxxes :

View attachment 5161336

That morph is great.
But a little too much upper lift in reality will stay less advanced. Overall great job