TRUE_CEL is converting to Hinduism

[Gengar’s Ghost]

don't, I think that if Islam is not the truth, atheism is.

What do you identify as?

 

[Deleted member 16515]

What do you identify as?

I am a Muslim, and I don't think I will ever leave the religion even if my faith drops to 0, it's not worth the risk.

I just think that other religions are not even worth looking into, and the only possibilities regarding the purpose of existence are Islam and sheer nothingness

 

[Gengar’s Ghost]

I am a Muslim, and I don't think I will ever leave the religion even if my faith drops to 0, it's not worth the risk.

I just think that other religions are not even worth looking into, and the only possibilities regarding the purpose of existence are Islam and sheer nothingness

I get where you’re coming from but wouldn’t you say instead of atheism, agnosticism?

 

[JohnDoe]

No, that’s jumping to false conclusions. I don’t blame Islam. I blame people who claim to follow Islam but do not actually do it. And there are many people who react that way; they are not an isolated case. As for the messaging; I had my reasons for this, I really had no other option. If there was a better way? I would have gone down that road. But there wasn’t any.

So you blame people who follow islam yet you yourself did not do the islamically right thing by messaging her privately? how does that make sense? There are a lot of people who will react this way and it's because of culture, for example the men in our culture and arab culture are supposed to protect/guide the women, the brothers/father have a responsibility to ensure their daughter/sister is married to a man who they deem to be acceptable and who will be able to provide for her which you obviously can't do and you the girl has her own looks standards too which you also don't fit. So you see it has little to nothing to do with religion in this case. Sure maybe in your situation there was no better way to get in touch with her but you already knew deep down that it wasn't going to go well, you're smart enough to realize your level of looks and that it wasn't sufficient for a girl like her so why bother? I give you props for taking a risk but ultimately the end result was highly likely to have happened and you knew this.

Kufr is based on actions / blasphemous sayings. I did neither of these things, so it’s not kufr. For it to be blasphemous; I would have to criticize religion. Criticizing culture is NOT blasphemy. That’s what you probably don’t understand so I am explaining it to you. Anyway, if you think “leaving for pussy” (lol) is a bad reason; it’a really not. Marriage is literally half of your faith; seeing the seriousness in the matter just shows it’s not a small thing.

We can go back and forth but a muslim who claims they will leave the religion for a woman is kufr, plain and simple. You've put pussy on the highest pedestal, even higher than God/Religion. Just marry your fucking cousin and be done with this nonsense, really your mental condition will further deteriorate by continuing on this path. Marriage is half our faith and yet you refuse to marry your cousin or an average girl from Pakistan, you refuse to improve your looks in any shape or form, you refuse to improve in money, status or anything really. Rotting isn't going to change anything. Your dad and mother are around right? why the fuck are they not helping you look for a girl back home and get married? It's their duty

 

[Gengar’s Ghost]

So you blame people who follow islam yet you yourself did not do the islamically right thing by messaging her privately? how does that make sense? There are a lot of people who will react this way and it's because of culture, for example the men in our culture and arab culture are supposed to protect/guide the women, the brothers/father have a responsibility to ensure their daughter/sister is married to a man who they deem to be acceptable and who will be able to provide for her which you obviously can't do and you the girl has her own looks standards too which you also don't fit. So you see it has little to nothing to do with religion in this case. Sure maybe in your situation there was no better way to get in touch with her but you already knew deep down that it wasn't going to go well, you're smart enough to realize your level of looks and that it wasn't sufficient for a girl like her so why bother? I give you props for taking a risk but ultimately the end result was highly likely to have happened and you knew this.

We can go back and forth but a muslim who claims they will leave the religion for a woman is kufr, plain and simple. You've put pussy on the highest pedestal, even higher than God/Religion. Just marry your fucking cousin and be done with this nonsense, really your mental condition will further deteriorate by continuing on this path. Marriage is half our faith and yet you refuse to marry your cousin or an average girl from Pakistan, you refuse to improve your looks in any shape or form, you refuse to improve in money, status or anything really. Rotting isn't going to change anything.

You are an extremist. After explaining you still twist my words; blame me of certain things that don’t apply. Anyway back to your posts; I already said I had no other option so what did you expect me to do? If you were in my footsteps I’d like to see what you’d have done. It’s not “Arab culture.” It’s “Islamic culture.” Because people who claim to follow Islam, all act like this. But they act against it instead. Things aren’t black and white in islam either. Abortion is forbidden but a woman who was raped may opt for an abortion in which case it becomes permissible. This train of thought should technically apply to my decision to message as well; there was no other choice. But yes I already knew it was going to be like that, I just mean there’s no way someone should hold it against me because it’s unfair. Same way it’s unfair to hold an abortion against someone who was raped. They have no other choice. Kufr is only acts or blasphemous sayings. I did not commit blasphemy here so it’s really weird and illogical to be accused of kufr here. In Dutch we have a saying that goes like “making an elephant out of a fly” meaning you are making an exaggerated issue when there is none to begin with.

 

[Deleted member 16515]

I get where you’re coming from but wouldn’t you say instead of atheism, agnosticism?

agnosticism is something I wouldn't go near, if you believe that there is a god, you should commit to a religion even if you don't practice. leaving the religion brings no benefit, but staying in it may save you if the religion is true

 

[Deleted member 16515]

Kufr is based on actions / blasphemous sayings. I did neither of these things, so it’s not kufr. For it to be blasphemous; I would have to criticize religion.

do you think that I commited kufr by saying that atheism may have some validity in my above statement?

 

[Gengar’s Ghost]

agnosticism is something I wouldn't go near, if you believe that there is a god, you should commit to a religion even if you don't practice. leaving the religion brings no benefit, but staying in it may save you if the religion is true

Honestly I think going from religion to atheism is a way bigger step than going from religion to agnosticism because the constant is still there, which is believing in God.

 

[Gengar’s Ghost]

do you think that I commited kufr by saying that atheism may have some validity in my above statement?

I don’t. You commit kufr by saying blasphemous things or certain actions. You were only pondering; if that constitutes as “kufr” according to people, then people have are just too extremist and they have no idea what they’re talking about. As long as you don’t actually do something or don’t say actual blasphemous things (for example “There is no god”).

 

[Deleted member 16515]

Honestly I think going from religion to atheism is a way bigger step than going from religion to agnosticism because the constant is still there, which is believing in God.

it is indeed.
the reason I say this is because i wouldn't leave Islam even if I only have the slightest belief in Allah because, like I said, the risk is too great. this eliminates the choice of me going to agnosticism because in order to be agnostic, I need to have abit of belief in a higher power.

 

[JohnDoe]

You are an extremist. After explaining you still twist my words; blame me of certain things that don’t apply. Anyway back to your posts; I already said I had no other option so what did you expect me to do? If you were in my footsteps I’d like to see what you’d have done. It’s not “Arab culture.” It’s “Islamic culture.” Because people who claim to follow Islam, all act like this. But they act against it instead. Things aren’t black and white in islam either. Abortion is forbidden but a woman who was raped may opt for an abortion in which case it becomes permissible. This train of thought should technically apply to my decision to message as well; there was no other choice. But yes I already knew it was going to be like that, I just mean there’s no way someone should hold it against me because it’s unfair. Same way it’s unfair to hold an abortion against someone who was raped. They have no other choice. Kufr is only acts or blasphemous sayings. I did not commit blasphemy here so it’s really weird and illogical to be accused of kufr here. In Dutch we have a saying that goes like “making an elephant out of a fly” meaning you are making an exaggerated issue when there is none to begin with.

Wrong, i am not an extremist. How did i twist your words? i spoke the truth of the matter, whether you want to disagree or not is up to you but islamically what i have said is correct. What did i blame you for? the only real thing i've said is that what you've said is kufr, which it is. Go and ask any molvi or anyone who you consider to be knowledgeable about Islam and they will tell you the same thing. What the other guy has said is also kufr to an extent but he still believes in God and his belief prevents him from leaving which speaks volumes about his faith compared to yours who would leave for a woman. He still has the fear of God in him, and although he doesn't follow Islam, inshallah he will come around. In your footsteps i would not have done anything because we are both smart enough to know the outcome and going down that path will and has only lead to mental turmoil. The damage this one event has done to your psyche is to such a high extent, it would have been better off if you never knew about her. Tell me what exactly that they did wrong islamically? You contacted their sister in private and they reacted. What you did was not islamically right and although i understand where you're coming from as we both know the situtation and how things work in the west, you can't then go ahead and be surprised at their reaction. Did you think they would just pretend like nothing happened or encourage their sister to accept? As far as i can see, i don't think they have done anything wrong islamically. They were harsh and overreacted in an immature way, that i can agree on. Not sure what your point about abortion is, all life is sacred and it's fairly obvious why abortion is a sin unless under certain circumstances like rape where it is permissible, that makes perfect logical sense to me so why bring it up? No one said things were black & white, the world is a complex place and so is religion. No one is holding it against you, messaging her privately was maybe 1 of 2 things you could have realistically done, the other being asking your parents to contact her parents and ask for her hand but i can see why you didn't opt for this. I am not exaggerating anything, it is what it is.

 

[Gengar’s Ghost]

Wrong, i am not an extremist. How did i twist your words? i spoke the truth of the matter, whether you want to disagree or not is up to you but islamically what i have said is correct. What did i blame you for? the only real thing i've said is that what you've said is kufr, which it is. Go and ask any molvi or anyone who you consider to be knowledgeable about Islam and they will tell you the same thing. What the other guy has said is also kufr to an extent but he still believes in God and his belief prevents him from leaving which speaks volumes about his faith compared to yours who would leave for a woman. He still has the fear of God in him, and although he doesn't follow Islam, inshallah he will come around. In your footsteps i would not have done anything because we are both smart enough to know the outcome and going down that path will and has only lead to mental turmoil. The damage this one event has done to your psyche is to such a high extent, it would have been better off if you never knew about her. Tell me what exactly that they did wrong islamically? You contacted their sister in private and they reacted. What you did was not islamically right and although i understand where you're coming from as we both know the situtation and how things work in the west, you can't then go ahead and be surprised at their reaction. Did you think they would just pretend like nothing happened or encourage their sister to accept? As far as i can see, i don't think they have done anything wrong islamically. They were harsh and overreacted in an immature way, that i can agree on. Not sure what your point about abortion is, all life is sacred and it's fairly obvious why abortion is a sin unless under certain circumstances like rape where it is permissible, that makes perfect logical sense to me so why bring it up? No one said things were black & white, the world is a complex place and so is religion. No one is holding it against you, messaging her privately was maybe 1 of 2 things you could have realistically done, the other being asking your parents to contact her parents and ask for her hand but i can see why you didn't opt for this. I am not exaggerating anything, it is what it is.

I’ll get back to you asap. I’m going to watch anime with my brother.

 

[Gengar’s Ghost]

Wrong, i am not an extremist. How did i twist your words? i spoke the truth of the matter, whether you want to disagree or not is up to you but islamically what i have said is correct. What did i blame you for? the only real thing i've said is that what you've said is kufr, which it is. Go and ask any molvi or anyone who you consider to be knowledgeable about Islam and they will tell you the same thing. What the other guy has said is also kufr to an extent but he still believes in God and his belief prevents him from leaving which speaks volumes about his faith compared to yours who would leave for a woman. He still has the fear of God in him, and although he doesn't follow Islam, inshallah he will come around. In your footsteps i would not have done anything because we are both smart enough to know the outcome and going down that path will and has only lead to mental turmoil. The damage this one event has done to your psyche is to such a high extent, it would have been better off if you never knew about her. Tell me what exactly that they did wrong islamically? You contacted their sister in private and they reacted. What you did was not islamically right and although i understand where you're coming from as we both know the situtation and how things work in the west, you can't then go ahead and be surprised at their reaction. Did you think they would just pretend like nothing happened or encourage their sister to accept? As far as i can see, i don't think they have done anything wrong islamically. They were harsh and overreacted in an immature way, that i can agree on. Not sure what your point about abortion is, all life is sacred and it's fairly obvious why abortion is a sin unless under certain circumstances like rape where it is permissible, that makes perfect logical sense to me so why bring it up? No one said things were black & white, the world is a complex place and so is religion. No one is holding it against you, messaging her privately was maybe 1 of 2 things you could have realistically done, the other being asking your parents to contact her parents and ask for her hand but i can see why you didn't opt for this. I am not exaggerating anything, it is what it is.

Disregard my earlier post; anime has been postponed due to my brother getting some takeout. Anyway, no even from an Islamic perspective you are not right by saying I have committed "kufr" because I have done no such thing; were I to actively proclaim something against Islam then yes but that is not the case so you can't accuse me of it. It's like accusing me of murder just because I thought of killing someone; an idea is not a crime: living up to the idea is a crime. BIG difference, so no you are not right here. Many so-called scholars have their own beliefs; it doesn't mean that they are right. One says one thing; the other says another. For instance there are "scholars" who tell women to lie about their degenerate past. So you expect me to ask people like that? Scholars themselves have studied things so what's stopping us from having our own opinions within an Islamic framework, of course? If you were not to do anything in my footsteps then surely you would regret it; it'd be the one thing you would always think of. When everything is said and done, you can at least, eventually, put it behind you. You won't delude yourself with "what if?"s and the like. I agree messaging however was not the right thing to do from an Islamic perspective; I already said this before but that does not mean that I was morally wrong or anything of the sort. After all, I was left without a choice; that is when you want things off of your chest. That's what I wanted to do. Not the best method, but definitely a worthy method nonetheless no matter how you look at it. Of course I would not expect anyone to encourage their relative to accept, nobody in our "Islamic brotherly cultures" would ever do such a thing because they've lost the concept of brotherhood, instead they only have their egos to go on (that goes for 99.9% of men belonging to Islamic cultures; exceptions exist). I already explained that I brought up abortion as an example to show you that in Islam, there is no black and white like you were trying to portray it as. Anyway by saying "you have committed kufr" without me doing anything or saying anything blasphemous; yes, you ARE exaggerating. No other way to put it.

 

[JohnDoe]

Disregard my earlier post; anime has been postponed due to my brother getting some takeout. Anyway, no even from an Islamic perspective you are not right by saying I have committed "kufr" because I have done no such thing; were I to actively proclaim something against Islam then yes but that is not the case so you can't accuse me of it. It's like accusing me of murder just because I thought of killing someone; an idea is not a crime: living up to the idea is a crime. BIG difference, so no you are not right here. Many so-called scholars have their own beliefs; it doesn't mean that they are right. One says one thing; the other says another. For instance there are "scholars" who tell women to lie about their degenerate past. So you expect me to ask people like that? Scholars themselves have studied things so what's stopping us from having our own opinions within an Islamic framework, of course? If you were not to do anything in my footsteps then surely you would regret it; it'd be the one thing you would always think of. When everything is said and done, you can at least, eventually, put it behind you. You won't delude yourself with "what if?"s and the like. I agree messaging however was not the right thing to do from an Islamic perspective; I already said this before but that does not mean that I was morally wrong or anything of the sort. After all, I was left without a choice; that is when you want things off of your chest. That's what I wanted to do. Not the best method, but definitely a worthy method nonetheless no matter how you look at it. Of course I would not expect anyone to encourage their relative to accept, nobody in our "Islamic brotherly cultures" would ever do such a thing because they've lost the concept of brotherhood, instead they only have their egos to go on (that goes for 99.9% of men belonging to Islamic cultures; exceptions exist). I already explained that I brought up abortion as an example to show you that in Islam, there is no black and white like you were trying to portray it as. Anyway by saying "you have committed kufr" without me doing anything or saying anything blasphemous; yes, you ARE exaggerating. No other way to put it.

If you seriously consider leaving Islam then you have already lost your faith which means you don't truly believe in God/Islam otherrwise the thought of such a thing would not even be taken seriously by you. We can go back and forth over whether or not what you said is kufr but it's not going to achieve anything and your analogy isn't anything like what we're talking about. Scholars can be bad like the one we talked about but as i said, you can ask any muslim you hold in high regards and see what they say about the situation. We aren't talking about morals, we were talking about the islamically right thing to do, anyways you messaging her privately is not a big deal. It's funny you mention the dutch saying of making an elephant out of a fly because that's what you have done with this whole situation. A very common rejection that millions of men have experienced has made you question your faith and go to extremes just to get a woman. You can say things like your issue is primarily how her brothers acted but it's really not a big deal, you have made a mountain out of a molehill. What should have been a simple rejection and then you moving on with your life has completely ruined you from what i can see. I just don't understand why what they did had such a big effect on you mentally, you need to leave it in the past and move on. Shit happens and people are dumb but that's just how life is.
Whatever you do is between you and God, it's not my place to judge you. It was my duty as a muslim to inform you that you're going down the wrong path but that's basically all i can do, rest is up to you.

 

[Gengar’s Ghost]

If you seriously consider leaving Islam then you have already lost your faith which means you don't truly believe in God/Islam otherrwise the thought of such a thing would not even be taken seriously by you. We can go back and forth over whether or not what you said is kufr but it's not going to achieve anything and your analogy isn't anything like what we're talking about. Scholars can be bad like the one we talked about but as i said, you can ask any muslim you hold in high regards and see what they say about the situation. We aren't talking about morals, we were talking about the islamically right thing to do, anyways you messaging her privately is not a big deal. It's funny you mention the dutch saying of making an elephant out of a fly because that's what you have done with this whole situation. A very common rejection that millions of men have experienced has made you question your faith and go to extremes just to get a woman. You can say things like your issue is primarily how her brothers acted but it's really not a big deal, you have made a mountain out of a molehill. What should have been a simple rejection and then you moving on with your life has completely ruined you from what i can see. I just don't understand why what they did had such a big effect on you mentally, you need to leave it in the past and move on. Shit happens and people are dumb but that's just how life is.
Whatever you do is between you and God, it's not my place to judge you. It was my duty as a muslim to inform you that you're going down the wrong path but that's basically all i can do, rest is up to you.

There is no need for a “back and forth” because I’m not wrong; you are. I have given the reason on why you are wrong in my earlier post. But you choose to ignore that, so that’s your problem; not mine. It’s not good of you to accuse me of things that aren’t true. I don’t even care about the other things you are mentioning in this post because that’s a minor issue. The biggest issue is you throwing terms around uselessly. If you think you’re helping me; you are doing the exact opposite.

 

[john2]

From monotheistic pagan idolatry to polytheistic pagan idolatry.

 

[JohnDoe]

There is no need for a “back and forth” because I’m not wrong; you are. I have given the reason on why you are wrong in my earlier post. But you choose to ignore that, so that’s your problem; not mine. It’s not good of you to accuse me of things that aren’t true. I don’t even care about the other things you are mentioning in this post because that’s a minor issue. The biggest issue is you throwing terms around uselessly. If you think you’re helping me; you are doing the exact opposite.

I didn't ignore it, i just don't think i'm wrong so we'll agree to disagree. I didn't "accuse" you, i just stated what i thought of what was said by you, and like i said we aren't getting anywhere on that so no point continuing further on this topic. I wish you the best of luck.

 

[Gengar’s Ghost]

I didn't ignore it, i just don't think i'm wrong so we'll agree to disagree. I didn't "accuse" you, i just stated what i thought of what was said by you, and like i said we aren't getting anywhere on that so no point continuing further on this topic. I wish you the best of luck.

You accused me of kufr, along with ascendedd. I explained why this isn’t the case. But you didn’t listen and kept arguing. That is not helpful. Anyway sure let’s leave it.