What would you suggest using instead of MSE? Because I have a recessed maxilla (I think), buccal corridors, not very protrusive cheekbones but they are wide, narrow mouth at 4.5 cm, and slightly negative canthal tilted eyes with a small amount of upper eyelid exposure near the outer canthus
A regular palate expander and a reverse-pull. Go aggressive on the palate expander but don't try to exceed 1mm/week and make sure the reverse-pull is angled upwards, not downwards. This will fix your recession, lead to more protruding cheekbones and widen your mouth. Buccal corridors, NCT and upper eyelid exposure I'm not going to make any promises on. Under-eye support will definitely improve.
Thanks you're awesome! But one last question, what is reverse pulling?
By the way I have a slight overbite with straight teeth, will that be a problem?
Reverse pull = Headgear that pulls the anchored jaw outward. Traditional orthodontic headgears push inward, this is a pretty shitty early orthodontic practice.
Dentists are always saying things don't work past certain ages based on some very old poorly done research or pure assumption, MSE is a safer bet anyway but I would disagree with your dentist, suture splitting is obviously possible with enough properly guided force. Dr. Mike Mew has been doing this successfully without MSE for ages, the key here is speed, nobody is expanding fast enough so only younger clients with unfused facial bones are getting expansion.
Thank you for the input, I will talk to him again about this
Where do I get the headgear? And how much do the palate expander + the headgear cost?
100% chance he's gonna say no, you can't teach a doctor anything.
Search ebay for "Reverse-pull facemask". I also believe @CopeAndRope has a thread where he describes his own protraction setup, that one is better tbh. Palate expanders again can be bought online but you have to shape it yourself to get it to fit for all the ones I've seen. Whole thing can be like 50 bucks if you really budget it. Remember you need to attach the facemask to the palate expander. If this is too big of a project I believe some dentists can custom fit an expander for you outside of a controlled treatment program. You can always just get MSE instead.
Wait when expanding the upper palate don't you need to also expand the lower palate as well?
no, mandible does no expand with palate. Common misconception.
You can but most of the time you won't need to, your teeth will still fit together fine and if you have an overbite it can be partially resolved with upper expansion only.
Wait, wouldn't expanding the upper palate while doing nothing for the lower palate just make an overbite worse (I want to still keep a slight overbite)? Because my teeth fit together with the top row of teeth (slightly larger than the bottom) but my top 6 front teeth overlap a little. I just want to be 100% knowledgeable about something that changes your face like this.
As long as your molars line up it wouldn't get worse. I also struggle to see the logic behind John Mew's claim that a collapsed palate will lead to an overbite and that expanding the palate can fix an overbite but apparently he treated overbites all the time with palate expansion alone. I think I had it figured out at one point but if I'm being honest I lost the explanation here.
What's that?
I habe a question. Wont MSE cause any noticable assymetry in face?
That can certainly happen, but it isn't supposed to.
No, I've had to disable my DM's because I had too many questions to possibly keep up with. The best way to get a hold of me is to email me at noreply@applesupport.com
Okay, thanks!
I've never heard of someone splitting the mandibular symphysis open with an appliance, but dental expansion in the mandible is possible to my knowledge.
It definitely would affect the canthal tilt (if you also use some sort of facepuller with it)... But the more protrusive cheekbones will mostly affect your under eye support (that's also much more important as soon as you have at least slightly PCT)
Wow, looks like most of my flaws are related to the maxilla (Save but two)! But does it also effect the eyelid near the canthal tilt? Like only 50% of my eye area has UEE and it is mostly near the area of the canthal tilt.
What I mean by fast expansion is that you make frequent turns with the expanding screw, as many as it takes to equal 1mm over the course of a week. It gets anchored to the gums because the expander rests and pushes on them rather than the teeth. Some expanders are however anchored on the teeth.
How do you measure your gains?
Well you will have gains pretty much as soon as you turn the screw, so just calculate how many turns 1 mm in expansion is for that appliance and you can figure it out.
I know I keep asking things but how do you calculate it? And the site you linked me to https://www.bracesshop.net/en/active-plates/1/y-plate/3-way-schwarz-upper-jaw?number=0004.44 should I get the palate expander with the impression kit and the headgear tubes? Also one last thing, how do you lengthen the jaw to meet up with the maxilla?
Oh dear, I forgot! Is what they offer enough to get the results I want?
Yes, impression kit and headgear tubes. You will make an impression with the kit, send it back, and they will send you the fitted appliance. Jaw will adapt as long as you keep the molars in contact. Extreme chintucking for at least 2 hours per day will put even more adaptive force on the TMJ joint and your jaws will both line up. There is a limit here where too much forward growth of the maxilla will result in your mandible hyperextending and give you TMJ, but its supposedly pretty hard to hit this.
???
So, I have a 10.5-11.5 cm mandible (lengthwise, gonion to center of chin) how much do you think I could realistically and safely extend it to? Maybe by 1-2 cm?
Also what are the headgear tubes for?
While more of your mandible will be displayed causing it to look bigger, it wont actually increase in length. More of it just comes forward. Something with a similar approach to AGGA but in the lower jaw might work but the whole thing is pretty iffy IMO. One of the things you probably need surgery to do.
Could you link me to something that sells a facepuller?
Thank you so much man! If I ever get the money in the future I'll send it to you!ADJUSTABLE ORTHODONTIC FACE MASK REVERSE PULL HEADGEAR 58Grames / FACIAL MASCA | eBay
Find great deals for ADJUSTABLE ORTHODONTIC FACE MASK REVERSE PULL HEADGEAR 58Grames / FACIAL MASCA. Shop with confidence on eBay!www.ebay.com
You will need to adjust this one, by default it pulls forward and downward. Adjustment is pretty easy though. The anchoring to the chin is potentially a bad idea, so if you want to be safe I would build CopeAndRope's facepuller, but you won't need to make the anchor part since you already will have a palate expander.
Wait, will this device mess up my gonial angle or change my ramus in anyway?ADJUSTABLE ORTHODONTIC FACE MASK REVERSE PULL HEADGEAR 58Grames / FACIAL MASCA | eBay
Find great deals for ADJUSTABLE ORTHODONTIC FACE MASK REVERSE PULL HEADGEAR 58Grames / FACIAL MASCA. Shop with confidence on eBay!www.ebay.com
You will need to adjust this one, by default it pulls forward and downward. Adjustment is pretty easy though. The anchoring to the chin is potentially a bad idea, so if you want to be safe I would build CopeAndRope's facepuller, but you won't need to make the anchor part since you already will have a palate expander.
Should help it if anything, the mandible is theorized by mike mew to remodel in shape (not size) to become more square after the maxilla is rotated upwards. He's actually achieved this in kids but I have no idea if it works/how fast it will in adults.Thank you so much man! If I ever get the money in the future I'll send it to you!
Wait, will this device mess up my gonial angle or change my ramus in anyway?
We'll see, hopefully this all goes well.
Look at Barrett or Eriksen for example, if you get your cheekbones really high up and protruding it will affect the whole eye....
Well, my grandfather was a 7 PSL in his prime, not even joking. And everyone says that I look like him, except now that I've been on this forum and learned about almost every facial flaw there is to know, I can see that I don't live up to how he looks. And from what I've seen in his pictures is a forward grown maxilla, and he has almost no visible flaws on his face. He looked like a 7 PSL version of Tom Selleck mixed with a hint of Sean O'Pry (just around the eye area). No one in my family has any huge failos except for asymmetry in the eyelids caused by an uneven browridge and a nose that gets insanely huge as we age. Did I mention I look almost exactly like him? So I believe it's to do with the maxilla, at least in my case, that is.
So you think this one is as capable as MSE of splitting the suture? No need for an ortho to screw anything in to help with this?
No its not as capable as MSE, but it is still very likely to split the maxillary suture if you are fast enough. Mike Mew claims to have expanded skeletally with regular expanders on almost all his patients that needed it, adults too not kids. Yes a posterior position is better but a more forward position won't prevent your suture from splitting. I agree MSE is superior but I'm just providing an option for people who don't want to pay for professional treatment.
How much do you think it would cost to get MSE?
www.greatlakesdentaltech.com
The palate expander sounds like the most realistic choice as of now.MSE Type-2 Expander - 10mm
Developed by Dr. Won Moon, the MSE is a version of the Microimplant Assisted Rapid Palatal Expander (MARPE). The MSE is capable of producing dramatic maxillary skeletal expansion. The MSE uses 4 TADs for fixation to the palate and a wrench for activ
If you're steady with that drill its 135 bucks lmao
I have no idea, can't find a price on google so your guess is as good as mine. Maybe Ronald Ead has his cost posted somewhere. You might also have to travel to find an orthodontist willing to do this.
Provided the MSE succeeds in splitting the suture, yes.
