why is my mandible-to-floor angle different to my occlusal plane?

[bobsmith03]

my occlusal plane is 13 degrees but my mandible to floor angle is like 25 degrees. is this normal?

and is a 13 degree occlusal plane bad enough to get bimax ccw which will also reduce mandible to floor angle and wouldn't need genio. Is it worth it or just get jaw angle implant to fix my asymmetric placing of gonion/ramus length and less downgrowth, get genio/implant for chin.

bigonial is 90% of bizygomatic width currently

 

[greycel]

View attachment 2472825

my occlusal plane is 13 degrees but my mandible to floor angle is like 25 degrees. is this normal?

and is a 13 degree occlusal plane bad enough to get bimax ccw which will also reduce mandible to floor angle and wouldn't need genio. Is it worth it or just get jaw angle implant to fix my asymmetric placing of gonion/ramus length and less downgrowth, get genio/implant for chin.

bigonial is 90% of bizygomatic width currently

That part is genetic. Look at Christian Bale for example. He has a occlusal plane within the normal range, yet his mandibular angle is higher.

It's rare to have a low mandibular angle in addition to having an occlusal plane within the normal range. Often comes hand to hand with tall ramus (unless maybe SFS). Here is an example:

I'd advise you to fix your occlusal plane to 0-3 degrees. THat's the point of CCW rotation of the Maxillomandibular Complex. Having 0 may be ideal for you, as you won't end up with a block head like the example above. Your measurements are ideal. I'm guessing you will have an angle of 12 degrees parallel to ground (25-13=12). This is genetic (+ may depend on chewing from young age due to ramus height?).

This is actually the important angle. The gonial angle I've come to theorise, is important but more so to say whether or not the ramus will be slanted or straight. When it comes to aesthetics though, that has a marginal difference compared to fixing mandibular angle in relation to ground (for a developed skull look). Women care more about angularity, and seeing the bone. Ofcourse a straighter ramus would be slightly better though (to some extent).

As for your question, fix the downward growth, if it does not fall in the normal range. People cope and say get rhino or genio/ chin wing, but truth is that you will look uncanny and have the "surgery look". You want to fix your base, my friend.
My theory for this is that you can't have a mixture of very good genes and "very bad genes" (in eyes of normies, who don't understand bad development, not actually bad genes). Good genes come in packages. If someone with a downgrown face and jew hooked nose, gets rhino, he will have a good nose but the rest of his features can't compensate. His downgrown zygos, mandible, maxilla, don't exist with a nose that is not hooked, elsewhere. He looks unique. Fucks up harmony.

If someone gets inframalar implants with rhino, that could theoretically work, as people who have what seems like a downgrown face (not actually, just steep mandibular angle) do also have good "upper maxilla"- elias de poot/ christian bale/ sean o pry (slightly). But in that scenario, you are frauding your genes to make yourself seem like it is in your genes to have a steep mandibular angle (relative to floor), when you would have had a shallower one (relative to floor). Won't fix your gummy smile from bad occlusal plane angle tho.
Also, I feel like it would look "off" with a protruding "lower maxilla", that I think you have. Because then you will have forward growth of all parts of your maxilla, a straight nose, but a steep mandibular angle... which I have never seen. Because if that supposed person, was to fix the downward growth he has, and he already has all of those elite features (forward growth of both "upper and lower" maxilla), then he would look like a fcking morph lmao. No human is that crazy good looking, they look like a morph. The person will have an upturned nose, and exceptional dogmaxxed percieved forward growth everywhere in relation to vertically smaller skull (like the shitty meme morphs PSLers here do lol).
All forward grown chads have low mandibular to floor angle.

Btw everyone here talks about harmony and shit, but they talk about it from one plane which is front facing, as in how the bones are positioned. Nobody talks about saggital positioning of the bones themselves in relation to one another. As in, how the forward growth of all the features work with each other. Someone needs to make a thread on how the relative forward growth differs causing harmony. I remember only seeing one thread kinda on this, which was the relation of how anteriorly projected the zygos are compared to the maxilla. But this is only 1 out of many different combinations of forward growth to analyse.
This is lowkey way more important than the harmony we calculate from perfect front profile, cuz we are 3d people not 2d and literally never other than pics do we rate from front. That's prolly why some people look better in motion too, because their forward growth is harmonically proportional, relative all over their face.

I am not a surgery expert or anything, this is all just logical though.

This is a diagram, basically showing what I'm tryna say:

https://app.diagrams.net/?splash=0&ui=sketch#LOcclusal Plane vs Mandibular Floor Angle.drawio.html
(idk if link works)

Thoughts?

Spoiler: Tags

@AscendingHero @TheHandcel @Acromegaly_Chad @Orc @NegativeNorwood @RealSurgerymax @shahid khan @retard @mvp2v1 @alriodai @ccwarrior @Allornothing @pcmaxing @VenatorLuparius @Chintuck22 @czwarty @HarrierDuBois @Gmogger @Foreverbrad @orthochadic @WanderingBurro @SixCRY @RoyaleWithCheese @temporomandibular32 @Wannabe Chad @incel194012940

Edit: I have said throughout this post that 0 is good, but aim for 4+(ish) occlusal plane angle, check post below for why.

 

[Orc]

View attachment 2557661

thanks for the information, calculated mine to be like 5 degrees.

 

[pagodagu]

This is lowkey way more important than the harmony we calculate from perfect front profile, cuz we are 3d people not 2d and literally never other than pics do we rate from front. That's prolly why some people look better in motion too, because their forward growth is harmonically proportional, relative all over their face.

Great reply and explanation, I'm very interested in the planes of the mandibular region in relation to the maxilla as I believe that this is where my biggest failo is. Do you mind sharing how you would measure angles as I'm not familiar with any software that can do that except CAD haha. Thanks !

 

[Orc]

Do you mind sharing how you would measure angles as I'm not familiar with any software that can do that except CAD haha. Thanks !

Online Protractor

Measuring degrees of angles with this transparent online protractor, use your laptop, computer, tablet or smartphone to measure the angle of any objects

www.ginifab.com

 

[greycel]

Great reply and explanation, I'm very interested in the planes of the mandibular region in relation to the maxilla as I believe that this is where my biggest failo is. Do you mind sharing how you would measure angles as I'm not familiar with any software that can do that except CAD haha. Thanks !

Idk how to do morphs or any editing lol. But ill tell you what you gotta do. Your occlusal plane angle is not 0 degrees. Measure it like OP did with his teeth (use straight lines parallel to jaws tho). Then you gotta measure the other angle which was the mandibular angle with the floor. This is not your true mandibular angle though, if you are downgrown. Then you gotta subtract: the mandibular angle with the floor (your downgrown one) - occlusal angle (how much you are downgrown by). This is basically showing that if both your jaws rotated CCW to form a normal occlusal plane of 0 degrees let's say (it can be 2-3 degrees too if you want it there, but change the "occlusal angle" to the difference from your current occlusal plane angle to 2-3 degrees occlusal plane angle), then what angle do your genes make your mandible make parallel to the floor.

I'd say maybe use photoshop with a picture of your skull and then search up on youtube protractor for photoshop or smth.

For CCW BIMAX, the amount you rotate by, should be based COMPLETELY (if aesthetically) on what you want your final mandibular angle parallel to the ground to be. Because it may be genetically low, and if you go for 0 degree occlusal plane angle, then you will look like minecraft steve blockhead. If it is genetically high, then you will need to rotate as much CCW, as you want close (or actually) to 0 degree occlusal plane angle.

For example, the second dude I posted Matt Lemond, would unironically look better if he developed a bit worse and was slightly more downgrown, cuz his mandible genetically is very in parallel to his occlusal plane angle which is close to 0.

 

[pagodagu]

Idk how to do morphs or any editing lol. But ill tell you what you gotta do. Your occlusal plane angle is not 0 degrees. Measure it like OP did with his teeth (use straight lines parallel to jaws tho). Then you gotta measure the other angle which was the mandibular angle with the floor. This is not your true mandibular angle though, if you are downgrown. Then you gotta subtract: the mandibular angle with the floor (your downgrown one) - occlusal angle (how much you are downgrown by). This is basically showing that if both your jaws rotated CCW to form a normal occlusal plane of 0 degrees let's say (it can be 2-3 degrees too if you want it there, but change the "occlusal angle" to the difference from your current occlusal plane angle to 2-3 degrees occlusal plane angle), then what angle do your genes make your mandible make parallel to the floor.

Sadly I don't have a full radiograph of my skull, but I do have one for my teeth. As you can see my ramus is pitifully short giving my a bad gonial angle. I'm having difficulty finding my occlusal plane as aforementioned problem but I think its around 15 die or take. as you can see the mandibular angle is around 26 degrees?! pretty crazy tbh, Maybe what I need is a bimax with a CCW? I was first thinking of getting implant for the ramus and wider jaw + paranasal implants due to a bit down grown maxilla.

Also thanks for looking into my thread on occlusal planes


Update: both occlusal plane and mandibular plane angles should be around 3 degrees lower, accounting for the open mouth in radiograph

 

[greycel]

Sadly I don't have a full radiograph of my skull, but I do have one for my teeth. As you can see my ramus is pitifully short giving my a bad gonial angle. I'm having difficulty finding my occlusal plane as aforementioned problem but I think its around 15 die or take. as you can see the mandibular angle is around 26 degrees?! pretty crazy tbh, Maybe what I need is a bimax with a CCW? I was first thinking of getting implant for the ramus and wider jaw + paranasal implants due to a bit down grown maxilla.

View attachment 2557925View attachment 2557926


Also thanks for looking into my thread on occlusal planes

Nws bro, I didn't even know that 0 degree occlusal plane angle is unideal, so for everything I said operate for your final result to be in the range of 4+ degrees. For anybody seeing this post, check this out:

https://looksmax.org/threads/sacrifice-forward-growth.837689/post-12875445

As for what you said, 15 degree occlusal plane angle is kinda high. So definitely, when you are planning your bimax with your surgeon, ask to do lots of morphs with different rotation angles and its 3d effects for your bones and soft tissue, for desired mandibular to floor angle. You will find one that looks the best and has the best proportions (keep in mind the philtrum: chin, and I heard someone got 15% wider lips using a CCW rotation too, due to better teeth support for outside corners of lips.. so lips:chin ratio and lips:Ipd ratio. Also bigonial may increase so bigonial:bizygomatic. Midface does decrease but very slightly, and tends to be random tbh). Get an alar cinch to prevent wide nose after rotation.

I wouldn't recommend paranasal implants, ppl have said it looks uncanny after when they talk/smile/laugh/yawn.

 

[Allornothing]

Just means your chin is taller than the average person with the same occlusal plane angle. It’s a good thing as long as your chin to philtrum ratio is in balance.

 

[bobsmith03]

That part is genetic. Look at Christian Bale for example. He has a occlusal plane within the normal range, yet his mandibular angle is higher.

View attachment 2557654

It's rare to have a low mandibular angle in addition to having an occlusal plane within the normal range. Often comes hand to hand with tall ramus (unless maybe SFS). Here is an example:
View attachment 2557656

I'd advise you to fix your occlusal plane to 0-3 degrees. THat's the point of CCW rotation of the Maxillomandibular Complex. Having 0 may be ideal for you, as you won't end up with a block head like the example above. Your measurements are ideal. I'm guessing you will have an angle of 12 degrees parallel to ground (25-13=12). This is genetic (+ may depend on chewing from young age due to ramus height?).
View attachment 2557661

This is actually the important angle. The gonial angle I've come to theorise, is important but more so to say whether or not the ramus will be slanted or straight. When it comes to aesthetics though, that has a marginal difference compared to fixing mandibular angle in relation to ground (for a developed skull look). Women care more about angularity, and seeing the bone. Ofcourse a straighter ramus would be slightly better though (to some extent).

As for your question, fix the downward growth, if it does not fall in the normal range. People cope and say get rhino or genio/ chin wing, but truth is that you will look uncanny and have the "surgery look". You want to fix your base, my friend.
My theory for this is that you can't have a mixture of very good genes and "very bad genes" (in eyes of normies, who don't understand bad development, not actually bad genes). Good genes come in packages. If someone with a downgrown face and jew hooked nose, gets rhino, he will have a good nose but the rest of his features can't compensate. His downgrown zygos, mandible, maxilla, don't exist with a nose that is not hooked, elsewhere. He looks unique. Fucks up harmony.

If someone gets inframalar implants with rhino, that could theoretically work, as people who have what seems like a downgrown face (not actually, just steep mandibular angle) do also have good "upper maxilla"- elias de poot/ christian bale/ sean o pry (slightly). But in that scenario, you are frauding your genes to make yourself seem like it is in your genes to have a steep mandibular angle (relative to floor), when you would have had a shallower one (relative to floor). Won't fix your gummy smile from bad occlusal plane angle tho.
Also, I feel like it would look "off" with a protruding "lower maxilla", that I think you have. Because then you will have forward growth of all parts of your maxilla, a straight nose, but a steep mandibular angle... which I have never seen. Because if that supposed person, was to fix the downward growth he has, and he already has all of those elite features (forward growth of both "upper and lower" maxilla), then he would look like a fcking morph lmao. No human is that crazy good looking, they look like a morph. The person will have an upturned nose, and exceptional dogmaxxed percieved forward growth everywhere in relation to vertically smaller skull (like the shitty meme morphs PSLers here do lol).
All forward grown chads have low mandibular to floor angle.

Btw everyone here talks about harmony and shit, but they talk about it from one plane which is front facing, as in how the bones are positioned. Nobody talks about saggital positioning of the bones themselves in relation to one another. As in, how the forward growth of all the features work with each other. Someone needs to make a thread on how the relative forward growth differs causing harmony. I remember only seeing one thread kinda on this, which was the relation of how anteriorly projected the zygos are compared to the maxilla. But this is only 1 out of many different combinations of forward growth to analyse.
This is lowkey way more important than the harmony we calculate from perfect front profile, cuz we are 3d people not 2d and literally never other than pics do we rate from front. That's prolly why some people look better in motion too, because their forward growth is harmonically proportional, relative all over their face.

I am not a surgery expert or anything, this is all just logical though.

This is a diagram, basically showing what I'm tryna say:
View attachment 2557742
https://app.diagrams.net/?splash=0&ui=sketch#LOcclusal Plane vs Mandibular Floor Angle.drawio.html
(idk if link works)

Thoughts?

Spoiler: Tags

@AscendingHero @TheHandcel @Acromegaly_Chad @Orc @NegativeNorwood @RealSurgerymax @shahid khan @retard @mvp2v1 @alriodai @ccwarrior @Allornothing @pcmaxing @VenatorLuparius @Chintuck22 @czwarty @HarrierDuBois @Gmogger @Foreverbrad @orthochadic @WanderingBurro @SixCRY @RoyaleWithCheese @temporomandibular32 @Wannabe Chad @incel194012940

Edit: I have said throughout this post that 0 is good, but aim for 4+(ish) occlusal plane angle, check post below for why.

Thanks for all this info. Yes your diagram is good and shows how in forward grown people the ramus is slanted which decreases mandible to floor angle.

 

[bobsmith03]

That part is genetic. Look at Christian Bale for example. He has a occlusal plane within the normal range, yet his mandibular angle is higher.

View attachment 2557654

It's rare to have a low mandibular angle in addition to having an occlusal plane within the normal range. Often comes hand to hand with tall ramus (unless maybe SFS). Here is an example:
View attachment 2557656

I'd advise you to fix your occlusal plane to 0-3 degrees. THat's the point of CCW rotation of the Maxillomandibular Complex. Having 0 may be ideal for you, as you won't end up with a block head like the example above. Your measurements are ideal. I'm guessing you will have an angle of 12 degrees parallel to ground (25-13=12). This is genetic (+ may depend on chewing from young age due to ramus height?).
View attachment 2557661

This is actually the important angle. The gonial angle I've come to theorise, is important but more so to say whether or not the ramus will be slanted or straight. When it comes to aesthetics though, that has a marginal difference compared to fixing mandibular angle in relation to ground (for a developed skull look). Women care more about angularity, and seeing the bone. Ofcourse a straighter ramus would be slightly better though (to some extent).

As for your question, fix the downward growth, if it does not fall in the normal range. People cope and say get rhino or genio/ chin wing, but truth is that you will look uncanny and have the "surgery look". You want to fix your base, my friend.
My theory for this is that you can't have a mixture of very good genes and "very bad genes" (in eyes of normies, who don't understand bad development, not actually bad genes). Good genes come in packages. If someone with a downgrown face and jew hooked nose, gets rhino, he will have a good nose but the rest of his features can't compensate. His downgrown zygos, mandible, maxilla, don't exist with a nose that is not hooked, elsewhere. He looks unique. Fucks up harmony.

If someone gets inframalar implants with rhino, that could theoretically work, as people who have what seems like a downgrown face (not actually, just steep mandibular angle) do also have good "upper maxilla"- elias de poot/ christian bale/ sean o pry (slightly). But in that scenario, you are frauding your genes to make yourself seem like it is in your genes to have a steep mandibular angle (relative to floor), when you would have had a shallower one (relative to floor). Won't fix your gummy smile from bad occlusal plane angle tho.
Also, I feel like it would look "off" with a protruding "lower maxilla", that I think you have. Because then you will have forward growth of all parts of your maxilla, a straight nose, but a steep mandibular angle... which I have never seen. Because if that supposed person, was to fix the downward growth he has, and he already has all of those elite features (forward growth of both "upper and lower" maxilla), then he would look like a fcking morph lmao. No human is that crazy good looking, they look like a morph. The person will have an upturned nose, and exceptional dogmaxxed percieved forward growth everywhere in relation to vertically smaller skull (like the shitty meme morphs PSLers here do lol).
All forward grown chads have low mandibular to floor angle.

Btw everyone here talks about harmony and shit, but they talk about it from one plane which is front facing, as in how the bones are positioned. Nobody talks about saggital positioning of the bones themselves in relation to one another. As in, how the forward growth of all the features work with each other. Someone needs to make a thread on how the relative forward growth differs causing harmony. I remember only seeing one thread kinda on this, which was the relation of how anteriorly projected the zygos are compared to the maxilla. But this is only 1 out of many different combinations of forward growth to analyse.
This is lowkey way more important than the harmony we calculate from perfect front profile, cuz we are 3d people not 2d and literally never other than pics do we rate from front. That's prolly why some people look better in motion too, because their forward growth is harmonically proportional, relative all over their face.

I am not a surgery expert or anything, this is all just logical though.

This is a diagram, basically showing what I'm tryna say:
View attachment 2557742
https://app.diagrams.net/?splash=0&ui=sketch#LOcclusal Plane vs Mandibular Floor Angle.drawio.html
(idk if link works)

Thoughts?

Spoiler: Tags

@AscendingHero @TheHandcel @Acromegaly_Chad @Orc @NegativeNorwood @RealSurgerymax @shahid khan @retard @mvp2v1 @alriodai @ccwarrior @Allornothing @pcmaxing @VenatorLuparius @Chintuck22 @czwarty @HarrierDuBois @Gmogger @Foreverbrad @orthochadic @WanderingBurro @SixCRY @RoyaleWithCheese @temporomandibular32 @Wannabe Chad @incel194012940

Edit: I have said throughout this post that 0 is good, but aim for 4+(ish) occlusal plane angle, check post below for why.

do you know if bimax can take me from inbetween 2 and 3 to the last one? from what ive seen the ramus doesnt get changed and cant be slanted but could be wrong.

 

[greycel]

View attachment 2558878
do you know if bimax can take me from inbetween 2 and 3 to the last one? from what ive seen the ramus doesnt get changed and cant be slanted but could be wrong.

I'm not sure to be honest. I'm not really a surgery expert. I was talking about the logic of this movement and what really is important. Ask a surgeon in a consult.

When I've done more research on Bimax and CCW, then I can come back with some theories.

 

[bobsmith03]

I'm not sure to be honest. I'm not really a surgery expert. I was talking about the logic of this movement and what really is important. Ask a surgeon in a consult.

When I've done more research on Bimax and CCW, then I can come back with some theories.

ok thanks.

Also your diagrams you drew are similar to this post i made

is gonial angle bs?

There is a relationship with ramus and mandible body. The shorter the ramus, the longer the mandible. The longer the ramus, the shorter the mandible. There is another relationship, it is downward growth and angularity of the ramus. Here jordan barret has a short ramus, long mandible but high...

looksmax.org

The more forward grown you are, the more the ramus is slanted.

 

[bobsmith03]

I'm not sure to be honest. I'm not really a surgery expert. I was talking about the logic of this movement and what really is important. Ask a surgeon in a consult.

When I've done more research on Bimax and CCW, then I can come back with some theories.

top left is a representation of the jaw and cheekbone which is the line above. the mandible to floor angle here is 23 degrees.

top right is with jaw angle implants to reduce mandible to floor angle to a improved 13 degrees

bottom left is with bimax where i rotated the jaw just above the gonions to a mandible to floor angle of 13 degrees.

So which one do you think is better way to go about it. bimax or implants to fix a 23-25 degree mandible to floor angle? Is it always better to fix occlusal plane instead of doing implants to fraud ccw

 

[greycel]

View attachment 2566791
top left is a representation of the jaw and cheekbone which is the line above. the mandible to floor angle here is 23 degrees.

top right is with jaw angle implants to reduce mandible to floor angle to a improved 13 degrees

bottom left is with bimax where i rotated the jaw just above the gonions to a mandible to floor angle of 13 degrees.

So which one do you think is better way to go about it. bimax or implants to fix a 23-25 degree mandible to floor angle? Is it always better to fix occlusal plane instead of doing implants to fraud ccw

Well out of these 3 the third would be the best. That is if it in fact works, I don’t know much about bimax but I think that rotating above gonions may not be possible due to interference with the masseter muscles.

Third is best as it would be more natural than 2. The second does not exist naturally in real life. I one time saw an Asian with a gonion that sharp and I instantly knew he had surgery. Not even gigachads have it that sharp naturally. You could chew sufficiently to make gonions go outwards. Before mine were inwards and now they are outwards to a degree that I would no longer need gonion implants. Tbh most of it was due to light clenching 24/7 for a few months, and I’d stop for a bit if I felt some discomfort.

Fixing your jaws with bimax also helps a lot of stuff, to do with asymmetry of the skull, some sclera show from recessed rims, slight reduction in mid face. It also wil help sleep apnea, help you naturally fix posture, wider airway to improve breathing. The only problem is that u will have to recover for 6 months to a year. Then you’ll have to get inframalar implants which mimic high set zygos with peak anterior projection at a higher point. You could do this with your bimax, but I will be doing it 1 year after mine. I’m same age as you, but I’m not in a hurry.. since this will be for life, I want to get it right over 1 year extra.

Also frauding a ccw, 99% of the time would look uncanny due to downward growth of other features but a very long ramus and low mandible to floor angle. You may also have a crooked nose due to down growth, so it will look obvious. Most people who have that tall ramus tend to have exceptional development.

Bimax ccw is essentially rebuilding your base.