Why MSE along facepulling will probably result in shitty results

[betamanlet]

I have a question which can be interesting and very nice to have an answer for, and for certain users as well, specifically heightcels who plan or currently are injecting GH secretagogues.

I was thinking and theorizing that with the ability to inject substances that secrete GH giving us a drastic increase in the rate of bone remodeling, which as an example, many bodybuilders utilize such peptides to recover from workout injuries faster, and etc... so... could this possibly result in faster maxillary progress? whether it'd be mewing, chewing, or facepulling in that regard. Would it truly have a very effective outcome to it considering how the rate of bone remodeling would be skyrocketed.

View attachment 178428View attachment 178429

^ Graphs above displaying GH and bone remodeling rate declining through age, seems to be very correlated, of course, although not fully related... meaning, as in, questioning the difference between bone remodeling and the bone's softness that allows quick maxillary progress and overall movement that of an infant, or an 8 year old boy.

If maxilla-related problems are of course best treated in children, would this truly mean that GH substances could potentially make us 8 year olds again with malleable, easily influenced facial bones? Or would it simply just not be that easily effective, and that it may have other complications?

I'm not asking you as a wikipedia, but perhaps, maybe you can squeeze out some info JFL

I'm not well versed in the physiology of GH, but a lot more is involved in bone remodeling than just GH. The remodeling rate of a young adult is still about 30-50% that of a pre-teen, which would mean that remodeling should, at least in theory, not take that much longer to create changes when compared to children, in whom changes occur considerably fast. Since many don't find this to be the case in practice, I don't know how big part remodeling truly plays in reversing CFD. I do know from my own experience that as an adult the palate can be expanded at the rate of about 1-2 mm/month with oral posture, and that this is likely alveolar remodeling since I am not aware of my mid-palatal suture being open. Whether this kind of remodeling is restricted to the lighter bone of alveolar process or applies to the facial bones as whole, I can't say.

Can a FacePulling Device with moderate pressure impact the mid face/under Eye/ Zygomatic area? With your statement it should since if tongue posture alone can help

I suspect that the upper maxillary area is more impacted by the expansive force of posterior tongue and palatal expanders. The kid below for example underwent a facepull treatment. You can observe how his under-eye support has not changed much.

 

[Traxanas]

I'm not well versed in the physiology of GH, but a lot more is involved in bone remodeling than just GH. The remodeling rate of a young adult is still about 30-50% that of a pre-teen, which would mean that remodeling should, at least in theory, not take that much longer to create changes when compared to children, in whom changes occur considerably fast. Since many don't find this to be the case in practice, I don't know how big part remodeling truly plays in reversing CFD. I do know from my own experience that as an adult the palate can be expanded at the rate of about 1-2 mm/month with oral posture, and that this is likely alveolar remodeling since I am not aware of my mid-palatal suture being open. Whether this kind of remodeling is restricted to the lighter bone of alveolar process or applies to the facial bones as whole, I can't say.

I suspect that the upper maxillary area is more impacted by the expansive force of posterior tongue and palatal expanders. The kid below for example underwent a facepull treatment. You can observe how his under-eye support has not changed much.

View attachment 178653

I guess we'll have to give in time and learn for ourselves. We're doing the professional researchers a favour by being random guinea pigs jfl

 

[betamanlet]

I guess we'll have to give in time and learn for ourselves. We're doing the professional researchers a favour by being random guinea pigs jfl

Exactly. There are not many areas as concrete and accessible as facial development that still have as much room for speculation, experimentation and theorycrafting. There is just so much to take into account, and so many possible ways to approach the subject, that I don't think anyone has all the answers yet. Which makes this all so much more exciting.

 

[Traxanas]

Exactly. There are not many areas as concrete and accessible as facial development that still have as much room for speculation, experimentation and theorycrafting. There is just so much to take into account, and so many possible ways to approach the subject, that I don't think anyone has all the answers yet. Which makes this all so much more exciting.

We shouldn't raise our hopes up too much, but besides that, PSL could just cover the entire field of facial development and it's aspects by the end of 2020. I'm being ded srs, we're discovering things day by day.

And we're not even getting paid for it ffs, they should pay for our surgeries, appliances and supplements reeeeeee

 

[SayNoToRotting]

@CopeAndRope @betamanlet

See, bio-mechanics are very different from solid mechanics. If you apply a larger force to something like steel or iron, it will deform faster. But in the case of bones more force!= more movement. Hard forces induce a signal that makes the extracellular matrix to become rigid and the osteocytes to anchor tighter, while soft forces that fall below this signal transduction threshold don't make the matrix tense up allowing it to move without locking up.
so with hard forces you can compress, elongate or stretch, but with soft forces you can translate bone into new positions while making them grow via proliferation signals to the sutures.

this sounds correct, but for dental appliances to affect structures above, the bones need to be tight and rigid, instead of bendable.

A paper I read said that slow expansion creates no to little skeletal changes compared to rapid expansion.

This was one paper however.

 

[softLoverr]

I suspect that the upper maxillary area is more impacted by the expansive force of posterior tongue and palatal expanders. The kid below for example underwent a facepull treatment. You can observe how his under-eye support has not changed much.

View attachment 178653

His nose is more upturned, this only happens when the whole maxilla moves upwards and forwards. His eye support is still above average on the after picture, genetics could play a role here.

 

[betamanlet]

His nose is more upturned, this only happens when the whole maxilla moves upwards and forwards.

Yet has his nose upturned? Instead it seems that it has simply grown together with the jaws. Note that the maxillary growth direction isn't upward and forward, but downward and forward.:

This is in accordance to varbrah's pic about the direction of maxillary sutures, which I shared in this post.

His eye support is still above average on the after picture, genetics could play a role here.

His eye support appears non-existent to the extent that he has negative orbit vector orbit, which becomes evident when you account for head tilt:

 

[Ekeoma_The_BBC]

Yet has his nose upturned? Instead it seems that it has simply grown together with the jaws. Note that the maxillary growth direction isn't upward and forward, but downward and forward.:

View attachment 179467

This is in accordance to varbrah's pic about the direction of maxillary sutures, which I shared in this post.


His eye support appears non-existent to the extent that he has negative orbit vector orbit, which becomes evident when you account for head tilt:

View attachment 179464

I'm really confused as to how this relates to the "facial upswing" topic mew is talking about, when you say "thats just how human skull grows" do you mean the angle in which his maxilla grew in is genetic then? As in it would have grown that way even if he maintained a correct oral posture from the moment he was born?

 

[betamanlet]

I'm really confused as to how this relates to the "facial upswing" topic mew is talking about, when you say "thats just how human skull grows" do you mean the angle in which his maxilla grew in is genetic then? As in it would have grown that way even if he maintained a correct oral posture from the moment he was born?

I have noticed Mike Mew is quite good at making confusing, vague and seemingly contradictory assertions. He is dyslexic too, so perhaps communication just is not his strong suit. Facial upswing and maxillary upswing are two different concepts. Facial upswing refers to the way facial features and the dynamics between them transform when the craniofacial complex expands and grows forward. It's called facial upswing, because from the outside it does really look like the face is swinging up. Maxillary upswing, however, is an idea that the maxilla, through some circummaxillary hinge, rotates individually in relation to the rest of the cranium. This is a mechanic I'm not sure exists in the first place.

When the craniofacial complex expands and the alveolar process develops forward, so that the mandible and zygos advance, this creates an illusion that the maxilla has rotated, because the facial soft tissue is now better supported. In reality, the maxilla has likely not rotated, but changed its form. From AGGA especially we know how much the lower portion of the maxilla can change without impacting positioning and pitch of the maxilla as a whole. This kind of alveolar remodeling already by itself results in an appearance of facial upswing, even though hardly anything has changed but teeth positioning.

Another point of interest is that maxillary molars tend to increase in height (=swing down) as the maxilla develops forward and downward. This perhaps plays into the illusion that the maxilla as a whole has rotated.

 

[betamanlet]

I'm really confused as to how this relates to the "facial upswing" topic mew is talking about, when you say "thats just how human skull grows" do you mean the angle in which his maxilla grew in is genetic then? As in it would have grown that way even if he maintained a correct oral posture from the moment he was born?

Here is one additional demonstration of how down & forward movement of the maxilla leads to what looks like an upswing of the face.

.

The trickiest part is to understand that bone and soft tissue aren't locked in, i.e. they don't necessarily move together. Instead of moving, the soft tissue only adapts to the movements of the bone. When the maxilla grows forward, it becomes increasingly contoured by the skin. What may seem like maxillary upswing is really just its natural, upward-tilted shape becoming more visible due to forward movement.

(@CopeAndRope tagging you to these posts since you requested)

 

[Slyfex8]

Here is one additional demonstration of how down & forward movement of the maxilla leads to what looks like an upswing of the face.

.View attachment 179766

The trickiest part is to understand that bone and soft tissue aren't locked in, i.e. they don't necessarily move together. Instead of moving, the soft tissue only adapts to the movements of the bone. When the maxilla grows forward, it becomes increasingly contoured by the skin. What may seem like maxillary upswing is really just its natural, upward-tilted shape becoming more visible due to forward movement.

(@CopeAndRope tagging you to these posts since you requested)

But do you guy agree that even if we were not able to induce any upswing, we should still pull from a positive angle to the occlusal plane to avoid/limit the downward component from the protraction?

Absolutely every real life protraction that I know of was made from a negative angle.

 

[betamanlet]

But do you guy agree that even if we were not able to induce any upswing, we should still pull from a positive angle to the occlusal plane to avoid/limit the downward component from the protraction?

Absolutely every real life protraction that I know of was made from a negative angle.

I think the only relevant factor is whether or not you are separating the sutures from each other. As long as you manage to do so, what angle you pull at is not going to affect the outcome, only the efficiency with which you progress towards it.

What is good to keep in mind though is that the suture may be a two-way street. The suture is kind of a dynamic junction, responding to the demands placed on it. Whereas pulling the sutures apart results in new bone formation, pushing them against each other may result in bone resorption - which is possibly the prime driver behind age-acquired craniofacial dystrophy as postural slack would result in lack of expansive cranial support. So pulling excessively upwards is not necessarily a good thing to do, because you may end up cramming the maxilla against some of the circummaxillary sutures, effectively receding the maxilla in those particular dimensions. In the monkey maxilla protraction study for example, the result of positive pull angle was lessened molar height, increased antegonial notch and underbite, which points towards some form of resorption having take place.

Now in order to highlight the problem, if we you draw a circle that has the jawjoint as its center, and the original jawjoint-incicor distance as its radius, we'll notice that what we have actually shortened this radius without shortening the jaw itself. So we in fact created LESS room for the jaw to work with (hence the underbite):

This is why understanding that the maxilla wants to grow down and forward is of prime importance. Moreover, decreasing molar height is the opposite of what you'd want to do if you have antegonial notch. See for yourself the consequences of lack of molar height:

It's apparent how it's not downswung anterior maxilla but growth-deficient posterior maxilla that causes the notch. Every time you bite your teeth together with such occlusion, you enforce the notch.

 

[Slyfex8]

I think the only relevant factor is whether or not you are separating the sutures from each other. As long as you manage to do so, what angle you pull at is not going to affect the outcome, only the efficiency with which you progress towards it.

What is good to keep in mind though is that the suture may be a two-way street. The suture is kind of a dynamic junction, responding to the demands placed on it. Whereas pulling the sutures apart results in new bone formation, pushing them against each other may result in bone resorption - which is possibly the prime driver behind age-acquired craniofacial dystrophy as postural slack would result in lack of expansive cranial support. So pulling excessively upwards is not necessarily a good thing to do, because you may end up cramming the maxilla against some of the circummaxillary sutures, effectively receding the maxilla in those particular dimensions. In the monkey maxilla protraction study for example, the result of positive pull angle was lessened molar height, increased antegonial notch and underbite, which points towards some form of resorption having take place.

View attachment 179813

Now in order to highlight the problem, if we you draw a circle that has the jawjoint as its center, and the original jawjoint-incicor distance as its radius, we'll notice that what we have actually shortened this radius without shortening the jaw itself. So we in fact created LESS room for the jaw to work with (hence the underbite):

View attachment 179839

This is why understanding that the maxilla wants to grow down and forward is of prime importance. Moreover, decreasing molar height is the opposite of what you'd want to do if you have antegonial notch. See for yourself the consequences of lack of molar height:

View attachment 179820

It's apparent how it's not downswung anterior maxilla but growth-deficient posterior maxilla that causes the notch. Every time you bite your teeth together with such occlusion, you enforce the notch.

Thanks for exposing your views in a such well explained way, you must be very high iq.

 

[CopeAndRope]

@betamanlet so if one pulls at -30°, will this cause lengthening of the mid-face? Or any prognathic feature?

 

[Slyfex8]

@betamanlet so if one pulls at -30°, will this cause lengthening of the mid-face? Or any prognathic feature?

It will cause a slight downward movement.

Look at the official MSE paper by Won Moon, it shows real life results, CBCT scans etc.. (Had a hard time to get this full version without paying)

Class III treatment by combining facemask (FM) and maxillary skeletal expander (MSE) | PDF Host

PDF Host read free online - Class III treatment by combining facemask (FM) and maxillary skeletal expander (MSE) - Seminars in Orthodontics,Accepted manuscript,doi:10.1053/j.sodo.2018.01.009

pdfhost.io

This is the movement illustrated for the typical MSE+FM protraction, so, at a -30 degrees angle.

 

[betamanlet]

@betamanlet so if one pulls at -30°, will this cause lengthening of the mid-face? Or any prognathic feature?

As I said earlier, the maxilla will lengthen and grow downward, but externally this would resemble facial upswing due how the mandible advances and soft tissue stretches out. Prognathism has more to do with occlusion and alveolar process than maxillary positioning. So unless you are pulling on the teeth directly, there should be no problems.

 

[Deleted member 3962]

Mirin the IQ in this thread tbh. Mogs me.

 

[AmorFatis]

It will cause a slight downward movement.

Look at the official MSE paper by Won Moon, it shows real life results, CBCT scans etc.. (Had a hard time to get this full version without paying)

Class III treatment by combining facemask (FM) and maxillary skeletal expander (MSE) | PDF Host

PDF Host read free online - Class III treatment by combining facemask (FM) and maxillary skeletal expander (MSE) - Seminars in Orthodontics,Accepted manuscript,doi:10.1053/j.sodo.2018.01.009

pdfhost.io

This is the movement illustrated for the typical MSE+FM protraction, so, at a -30 degrees angle.
View attachment 179885

This likely makes the most sense. For some reason I get the impression that protraction from the front of the maxilla will just cause buccal tipping like with AGGA. That of course depends on how far forward you are. Don't trust the simulations, this one seems optimistic too.

Looking at actual case studies of adults using FM therapy with MSE, one can expect to get a millimeter every two months. My best guess is that to move the maxilla you need moderate forces applied as frequently as possible for as long as possible. It's funny that the Rhesus monkey study is the closest thing we have to real results in a substantial way that isn't just minor occlusion fixes for class III's. Orthodontists only care about fixing shit for kids they assume adults will just get a Lefort since no adult wants to wear a facemask all day. Luckily looksmax users have no life so they can approach facepulling with the discipline and rigor orthodontists dream of.

 

[Dino Hamciaren]

Very good and informative thread. Thanks for the info, boyos.

 

[Deleted member 685]

Very good and informative thread. Thanks for the info, boyos.

 

[SayNoToRotting]

@betamanlet looks like you as the only one have a lot of answers to the fundemental questions about bonegrowth/remodeling I always had.


I should have probably made my research on it a long time ago, but what about the neurocranium?
We've established that maxillary rotation along side the suture is not possible, And that remodelling can only really safely occur within the maxilla or other bone plates themselves.


So what about a facepuller "bending" the skull above the frontonasal suture? Seemed to be the case in the rhesus monkeys:

This would essentially be a complete "maxillary upswing", just with the browridge on top of that.







Also- on a somewhat related note- Look at what the stress distribution looks like during incisor biting:

There is also a lot of stress distributed around the nasal bridge, and even some pressure in the notch above the browridge, so I would expect that there is going to be some upswing (or at least compression) around those areas.

 

[SayNoToRotting]

@betamanlet stop hiding.

 

[Dino Hamciaren]

Maxilla compression. Interesting concept.

 

[betamanlet]

@betamanlet stop hiding.

I'll read your post tomorrow

 

[betamanlet]

@betamanlet looks like you as the only one have a lot of answers to the fundemental questions about bonegrowth/remodeling I always had.


I should have probably made my research on it a long time ago, but what about the neurocranium?
We've established that maxillary rotation along side the suture is not possible, And that remodelling can only really safely occur within the maxilla or other bone plates themselves.


So what about a facepuller "bending" the skull above the frontonasal suture? Seemed to be the case in the rhesus monkeys:

This would essentially be a complete "maxillary upswing", just with the browridge on top of that.







Also- on a somewhat related note- Look at what the stress distribution looks like during incisor biting:

There is also a lot of stress distributed around the nasal bridge, and even some pressure in the notch above the browridge, so I would expect that there is going to be some upswing (or at least compression) around those areas.

It's interesting that the stress distribution follows what would be the premaxillary sutural line, even though this suture is believed to be fully ossified by the time you turn 5. I couldn't find any frontal pictures of the human premaxillary suture, but here is how the suture looks on a monkey:

The premaxilla is essentially the middle third of the bone when divided into vertical segments. It thus seems that even though technically the suture is ossified, it is still subject to the same kind of friction/stress that the edges of Earth's tectonic plates are, i.e. the action happens where the bone, like Earth's crust, is the least solid. Another interesting point is that in each skull it is the canines that experience the highest stress, regardless of whether incisors or canines have the highest dental height. I don't know yet what to make of it, but it will be a valuable factor to be aware of.

As for your facepulling question, healthy bone does not really have the ability to assume new shapes by bending as far as I am aware. All changes should be explainable by growth and remodeling.. It's difficult to say how anatomically favorable the change in the monkey is. The problem is that the higher forward you position the occlusion, the worse its function as a cervical-supporting fulcrum becomes. For example, if your teeth and cervical spine are balanced in an angle like this:

Then increasing maxillary projection towards the direction of the radius (down and forward) would not change the relevant postural mechanics, (but rather only the effort needed to carry them out), because the relation between skull and spine would remain the same:

Rotating the occlusion, on the other hand, may cause the rest of the skull to compensate by rotating to opposite direction to an extent that would cause neck hyperflexion and verbetral bulge in the cervical spine as the body attempts to retain its preferred angle between occlusion and spine:

Such compensatory rotation is not necessarily a bad thing in all cases, but it's something to take into consideration before beginning any facepulling experiments.

 

[reptiles]

Mew uses the AGGA also known as FAGGA, an appliance which grows the jaws forward without changing their angle.
this is why Mew's patients keep having a subhuman gonial angle.
AGGA is a scam because you can get with the same price an orthognatic surgery with CCW rotation

 

[Slayerino]

This thread is the reason I registered here. So much IQ in these replies.

 

[Ceamce]

Can you guys make a resume for non english cels ?

Where are you from

 

[RecessedPrettyboy]

Any updates about facepulling?

 

[GoMadAndSTFU]

Where are you from

No thats good now

 

[betamanlet]

@betamanlet so is mse still better than not getting it considering money really isnt an issue? (I'm strictly talking about aesthetic reasons)

What about zygo prominence? Can zygo prominence be achieved through mse

I haven't studied it much, but MSE seems to be able to increase facial width and zygo prominence. Ronald Ead's case looks promising.

 

[retard]

I haven't studied it much, but MSE seems to be able to increase facial width and zygo prominence. Ronald Ead's case looks promising.

Just read this whole thread and kinda confused on the best angle, its obvious u are massive iq so in your personal opinion what do you think the best angle to pull at while facepulling is?

 

[Incoming]

Just read this whole thread and kinda confused on the best angle, its obvious u are massive iq so in your personal opinion what do you think the best angle to pull at while facepulling is?

@betamanlet

 

[BackFromTheMogging]

I was tempted to think that at first but after looking the stress area it kinda changed my mind.

View attachment 177536View attachment 177537

What do you think of that ?

I think am gonna run my own mechanical stress simulations. I am just looking for bone mechanical properties

 

[LebenistneHure]

Is this result achievable at 23 with any means? You can literally see her nose base went up, thats lifefuel cuz it shortens the nose.

 

[betamanlet]

@betamanlet

@retard If I was to pull, I would pull forward or slightly downward via the backmost molars. I'm not sure if facepulling is effective though,, because there is fascia and muscle holding the skull in its current shape. So whatever progress is made, this tension will pull the bones back. For the same reason teeth tend to relapse after braces are taken off... the underlying tension has to be relieved. Not just tongue, but a lot of the cervical musculature plays into this. The SOMA website diggbicc sent you explains this concept nicely.

 

[Deleted member 5385]

Why threads now can't be like that
Only "muh which shampoo use or how to fix skin "and other shit.
Literally the best thread on this forum

 

[The Bleach Pill]

Is this result achievable at 23 with any means? You can literally see her nose base went up, thats lifefuel cuz it shortens the nose.

how long did she use the face mask?

 

[Deleted member 4790]

What is mew's deal? Is he a maxfac, what does he actually know?

He is a dentist, supposedly an orthodontist, not a maxfac

 

[Treasure223]

[/QUOTE

 

[diggbicc]

@betamanlet iq mogging the entire sub

 

[Deleted member 5385]

View attachment 803926
@betamanlet iq mogging the entire sub

I agree in 100%

 

[Deleted member 1735]

a stark reminder on how much higher iq this forum used to be lmfao