12 tooth smile is an unmoggable trait. Swallow the smilepill.

[NegativeNorwood]

Meanwhile the guy who your crush rubs herself to at night

View attachment 1663995

(I count 6)

8, and would look even better with a wider palate and less visible buccal corridors, like everyone else.

 

[TrestIsBest]

Literally the first thing normies notice.
Even in Photofeeler, there's always someone that comments, irrespectibly of how good looking you are: "would prefer if you were smiling".

This is what a winner smile looks like:

Notice how successful, approachable, friendly and confident he looks at first glance, legit can't lose at life.

Look at this brutal comparison between someone with a proper, 12 tooth smile and someone with a narrow, 6 tooth smile and large buccal corridors:

SARPE (widens the upper palate) and MSDO (widens the lower palate and chin) + braces are the way to go from a narrow, cuck smile with large visible buccal corridors to a winner, main character 12 tooth smile without visible buccal corridors.

Tagging some chads.org members

@RealSurgerymax
@UglyGod360 @

@

@Acromegaly_Chad @

@

@Gaia262 @

@

@Xangsane @

@

@Korea @

@

@TheLordMadness @

@

@Amnesia @

@P@Preston @

@

@Prettyboy @

@

@Looksmax25 @

@

@ForeverRecession
@tyronelite
@Leonardo DiCaprio
@Eduardo DOV
@eduardkoopman
Reply
Report

Yup and I have like the opposite of that. Smiling lowers my SMV to a 0

 

[NegativeNorwood]

of course in RL you must speak but while you speak, you dont smile like a freak
i dont say, show no emotions while you interact with a person

just when you walk outside or drive in your car etc just look neutral and not even a lil bit smiling

the thing about teeth; i think most people have normal teeth and you are completely right, the teeth should look white and good

We do agree about the teeth, they should look white (same white as the sclera) and good...but also the palate must be wide, because visible buccal corridors are ugly.

 

[NegativeNorwood]

Yup and I have like the opposite of that. Smiling lowers my SMV to a 0

Me too, I've posted my cuck smile on this thread.
A girl I had sex with years ago (body positivity, average body and face short mid tier becky jfl) told me after ghosting me, when we coincided at a party: "you are good looking but you should fix your teeth, really please don't be offended"
Yet some people is in denial, the smile pill is brutal. I will be supper happy once I get SARPE+MSDO+Veneers.

 

[PubertyMaxxer]

Won't Expanding the Arches kill Hollow Cheeks?

@Sergio-OMS @RealSurgerymax @Acromegaly_Chad @SixCRY

 

[Acromegaly_Chad]

Won't Expanding the Arches kill Hollow Cheeks?

@Sergio-OMS @RealSurgerymax @Acromegaly_Chad @SixCRY

Nope usually its not so much expansion

 

[PubertyMaxxer]

Nope usually its not so much expansion

Is the msdo hassle worth it if you have 8 teeth smile?

 

[NegativeNorwood]

Won't Expanding the Arches kill Hollow Cheeks?

@Sergio-OMS @RealSurgerymax @Acromegaly_Chad @SixCRY

AFAIK, it shouldn't. Thinking about some examples of it, Vito Basso has hollow cheeks and a wide palate at the same time. Same for Richard Ramirez, hollow cheeks and (if you get past the rotten teeth) a very wide palate (which got narrower when the orthos at that time fixed his teeth, probably because of extractions or conventional braces that were available in the 80s).

 

[meryou]

ideal smile

 

[ChristianChad]

SARPE (widens the upper palate) and MSDO (widens the lower palate and chin)

If I had SARPE, wouldn't the lower palate get wider as well, if all teeth are in contact? I'm 17.

I was under the impression that as the upper dental arch widens the lower dental arch widens aswell

 

[BugeyeBigNoseCurry]

Literally the first thing normies notice.
Even in Photofeeler, there's always someone that comments, irrespectibly of how good looking you are: "would prefer if you were smiling".

This is what a winner smile looks like:

Notice how successful, approachable, friendly and confident he looks at first glance, legit can't lose at life.

Look at this brutal comparison between someone with a proper, 12 tooth smile and someone with a narrow, 6 tooth smile and large buccal corridors:

SARPE (widens the upper palate) and MSDO (widens the lower palate and chin) + braces are the way to go from a narrow, cuck smile with large visible buccal corridors to a winner, main character 12 tooth smile without visible buccal corridors.

Tagging some chads.org members

@RealSurgerymax
@UglyGod360 @

@

@Acromegaly_Chad @

@

@Gaia262 @

@

@Xangsane @

@

@Korea @

@

@TheLordMadness @

@

@Amnesia @

@P@Preston @

@

@Prettyboy @

@

@Looksmax25 @

@

@ForeverRecession
@tyronelite
@Leonardo DiCaprio
@Eduardo DOV
@eduardkoopman
Reply
Report

DNR but Pitt mogs

 

[NegativeNorwood]

If I had SARPE, wouldn't the lower palate get wider as well, if all teeth are in contact? I'm 17.

I was under the impression that as the upper dental arch widens the lower dental arch widens aswell

No, only MSDO or MMDO widen the lower palate. SARPE only widens the upper palate. It's true that orthos can do some tricks to widen your lower and upper palate a bit with Invisalign but large amounts of widening can only happen with SARPE and MSDO/MMDO respectively.

 

[ChristianChad]

No, only MSDO or MMDO widen the lower palate. SARPE only widens the upper palate. It's true that orthos can do some tricks to widen your lower and upper palate a bit with Invisalign but large amounts of widening can only happen with SARPE and MSDO/MMDO respectively.

Fuck... Thank you for the information and input though.
Well what about just dental arches and not palate (I recall reading they are not quite the same, especially when one is older, meaning dental arch can change but palate stays the same, whereas when you're younger dental movement always = palate change, please correct me if I'm wrong)? While undergoing SARPE, when the upper dental arch (along with the upper palate) gradually gets wider over a 6~ week period, because the upper and lower teeth are in contact, wouldn't the lower dental arch get proportionally wider aswell? Otherwise for every SARPE treatment there'd also be a device to widen the lower dental arch or people would end up with messed up bites, no? Or is this addressed with the braces part of the treatment (AFAIK, SARPE is the surgical implementation of the device, and then braces afterwards, again please correct me if I'm wrong)?

 

[lasthope]

No, only MSDO or MMDO widen the lower palate. SARPE only widens the upper palate. It's true that orthos can do some tricks to widen your lower and upper palate a bit with Invisalign but large amounts of widening can only happen with SARPE and MSDO/MMDO respectively.

What are to tricks to wide palate with Invisalign?
Can I go from a 6 teeth smile to a 8 teeth smile?

 

[ChristianChad]

Over for small teethcels

Are you on Tretinonon?

 

[NegativeNorwood]

Fuck... Thank you for the information and input though.
Well what about just dental arches and not palate (I recall reading they are not quite the same, especially when one is older, meaning dental arch can change but palate stays the same, whereas when you're younger dental movement always = palate change, please correct me if I'm wrong)? While undergoing SARPE, when the upper dental arch (along with the upper palate) gradually gets wider over a 6~ week period, because the upper and lower teeth are in contact, wouldn't the lower dental arch get proportionally wider aswell? Otherwise for every SARPE treatment there'd also be a device to widen the lower dental arch or people would end up with messed up bites, no? Or is this addressed with the braces part of the treatment (AFAIK, SARPE is the surgical implementation of the device, and then braces afterwards, again please correct me if I'm wrong)?

Super interesting questions and way over my level of knowledge, I wish I could answer 100% sure. This is what I know, which is not much:

- MSDO is necessary to match the lower palate width to a much wider upper palate. It also widens the chin. My smile is quite narrow and has visible buccal corridors, plus I have a narrow chin, so I plan to get both and didn't do much research about how good SARPE alone will be.

- Not much idea about how much the lower palate can "follow" the upper if only doing SARPE, or if it is corrected with Invisalign or brackets. No idea if most people that undergoes SARPE have a lower palate and dental arch wider than the upper.

- Yes, you have to wear the SARPE device, which creates a diastema due to widening your palate and after that you wear braces AFAIK.

I didn't have a formal consult yet to ask about every detail of it, but if things go well as planned I'll have serious consultations at the end of this year or beginning of 2023 at most late once I have enough money to pay for it. At the moment I'm saving money and losing weight (and researching as much as I can to optimize consultations).

What are to tricks to wide palate with Invisalign?
Can I go from a 6 teeth smile to a 8 teeth smile?

Probably yes, there are many Invisalign before and afters where the detal arch is wider than before, giving a wider smile. No idea about the exact methods or what they do specifically to widen it.

 

[Turanid_Bull]

you will never become nt

 

[Bitchwhipper2]

Over for my subhuman 6 tooth smile teracuck palate

 

[LightSkinNoob]

Will MSE in preparation for Lefort 1+IMDO take me from 10 to 12

 

[Dodld]

I

low iq thread to be honest

studies have shown, that men considered more attractive, when they not smile (also not look aggressive) just have a neutral look

you can google male model and you will see, most of them not smiling.. they just look neutral

but why is that this way? because looking neutral/not smiling = bad boy/masculine/strong thing versus smiling = soft/feminine/women thing

i could search the study that im talking about but only when some people want to read that
(because idk where i have seen that study, so i must search it)

EDIT

but of course, that just a male thing.. i mean, men will look more attractive, when they not smile.. with the girls are the opposite..
women smiling = attractive

I remember this form a qoves studio video

 

[Foreverbrad]

Yay, more surgeries.

Can this all be sorted during a bimax or are we looking at TWO rounds of invasive surgery with brutal recovery times?

 

[NegativeNorwood]

Yay, more surgeries.

Can this all be sorted during a bimax or are we looking at TWO rounds of invasive surgery with brutal recovery times?

Depends on your starting point. If you have both narrow palate and recessed jaws, and really want a 12 tooth smile...then you are looking at two rounds of invasive surgery with brutal recovery times.
If you have a 10 tooth smile and recessed jaws, some surgeons can widen your palate with a Lefort 1 and give you that 12 tooth smile without having to have SARPE before surgery (the possible amount of widening is not as much as with SARPE, which would be required if palate width is very narrow).
If you don't have recessed jaws but a narrow palate, then only SARPE.

Will MSE in preparation for Lefort 1+IMDO take me from 10 to 12

Yes, definitely.

 

[Deleted member 18840]

@Slayerino underwent MSDO and Andreishev's MSE two years before bimax

Whats the price for andreishev sarpe?

 

[Deleted member 18244]

Fml what about an 8 tooth smile

 

[Foreverbrad]

Depends on your starting point. If you have both narrow palate and recessed jaws, and really want a 12 tooth smile...then you are looking at two rounds of invasive surgery with brutal recovery times.
If you have a 10 tooth smile and recessed jaws, some surgeons can widen your palate with a Lefort 1 and give you that 12 tooth smile without having to have SARPE before surgery (the possible amount of widening is not as much as with SARPE, which would be required if palate width is very narrow).
If you don't have recessed jaws but a narrow palate, then only SARPE.

I think my palate is not narrow, I just have my back teeth tilted in a bit due to a compensation for my lower jaw being recessed.

Can probably be fixed with CCW LF1 + BSSO + orthodontics for decompensation.

 

[NegativeNorwood]

Fml what about an 8 tooth smile

From 8 to 12 tooth smile? SARPE, with as much widening (10mm+) as you can.

 

[tehVigilante]

The smilepill is the most brutal pill there is my friends.

 

[NegativeNorwood]

The smilepill is the most brutal pill there is my friends.

Indeed it is. Look at this absolute bestiality of a blackpill:

My current, cuck smile:

Goal palate width post SARPE and MSDO (but with straighter teeth than him, of course):



Absolutely brutal difference. This is also the trait that is most noticed in real life and in motion. Thank god this shit is fixable.
PS: I've measured my intermolar width using digital calipers, the same method Mike Mew used here:


My pic is with mouth as open as it can be and a bit lens distorted due to phone's back camera.
I've got 34,7mm for the lower arch and 36,7mm for the upper arch, which is "average" but I have wide zygos and a narrow jaw, so it looks quite bad as you can see.
I think Vito Basso might have in between 45-50mm intermolar width for both arches (and also looks amazing because wide jaw and wider mouth compliment his wide zygos too, unlike me).

 

[tehVigilante]

I think my palate is not narrow, I just have my back teeth tilted in a bit due to a compensation for my lower jaw being recessed.

Can probably be fixed with CCW LF1 + BSSO + orthodontics for decompensation.

U have maloclusion class 2 division 2.

At the very least bsso+ orthodontics for decompensation.

 

[BananaBoy]

Good thread, I've always been ashamed of my narrow smile

 

[ChristianChad]

MSDO or MMDO

Hey man. What the hell is MSDO or MMDO? I've only ever heard of IMDO (Inter-molar Mandibular Distraction Osteogenesis) and non-tooth borne expanders used in 6-13 year olds for expending lower palate / mandible

 

[NegativeNorwood]

Hey man. What the hell is MSDO or MMDO? I've only ever heard of IMDO (Inter-molar Mandibular Distraction Osteogenesis) and non-tooth borne expanders used in 6-13 year olds for expending lower palate / mandible

Midline Mandibular Distraction Osteogenesis/Mandibular Symphyseal Distraction osteogenesis.
It's SARPE but for the lower jaw, it also widens the chin.

Here it's done with SARPE on a 38 year old man:

Before:

After:

On a teenager, before:

After:

 

[ChristianChad]

Midline Mandibular Distraction Osteogenesis/Mandibular Symphyseal Distraction osteogenesis.
It's SARPE but for the lower jaw, it also widens the chin.

Here it's done with SARPE on a 38 year old man:

Before:

After:

On a teenager, before:
View attachment 1766763
After:
View attachment 1766762

Thanks for your answer
Shit, that's huge!
Couple of questions; is it more commonly performed then IMDO? Is IMDO with a custom cut (for adult patients, in kids it does not require cut (???)) simpler then this procedure from a medical approach? And last question, does IMDO also widen the chin, and is there a difference between kids and adults when it comes to IMDO results in regards to the chin, and in general if you know of any?
Thanks for your help man.

Your posts replying to me about 2 weeks ago helped me get a general framework on what to do and in a few days I'll go to my first consultation with a local maxfac, and I had a consultation with a real Orthodontist today, one that actually studied in University and not just some teeth doctor who did a course in Orthodontics, like most "Orthodontists" are in my country.

I'm in your debt nigga, please answer when you're not busy.

 

[NegativeNorwood]

Thanks for your answer
Shit, that's huge!
Couple of questions; is it more commonly performed then IMDO? Is IMDO with a custom cut (for adult patients, in kids it does not require cut (???)) simpler then this procedure from a medical approach? And last question, does IMDO also widen the chin, and is there a difference between kids and adults when it comes to IMDO results in regards to the chin, and in general if you know of any?
Thanks for your help man.

Your posts replying to me about 2 weeks ago helped me get a general framework on what to do and in a few days I'll go to my first consultation with a local maxfac, and I had a consultation with a real Orthodontist today, one that actually studied in University and not just some teeth doctor who did a course in Orthodontics, like most "Orthodontists" are in my country.

I'm in your debt nigga, please answer when you're not busy.

Glad I could help you!
IMDO is different than MSDO and SARPE. The key difference is that IMDO grows the entire jaw, and MSDO only widens the lower palate. IMDO doesn't do anything to the chin (a genioplasty will do). IMDO also widens the lower palate:


If you are under 25 years old and have a narrow palate and a recessed jaw, SARPE/Lefort 1 + IMDO is the best way to go tbh. IMDO is not recommended for adults in general because it can lead to very asymmetric expansion and would need a BSSO to correct it AFAIK.

Read @Sergio-OMS posts, he is a true maxfac and posted here several times about IMDO (and many more procedures), I've learned most of it reading it from his posts.

 

[Silver]

My current, cuck smile:

My pic is with mouth as open as it can be and a bit lens distorted due to phone's back camera.
I've got 34,7mm for the lower arch and 36,7mm for the upper arch, which is "average" but I have wide zygos and a narrow jaw, so it looks quite bad as you can see.
I think Vito Basso might have in between 45-50mm intermolar width for both arches (and also looks amazing because wide jaw and wider mouth compliment his wide zygos too, unlike me).

Are you sure you are measuring your IMW correctly, looking at your picture it looks narrower. I am 39.1 mm IMW measuring the John Mew way and confirmed it with measuring it in my CBCT scan. My smile is 12 teeth, and when I smile as broad as I can there are no buccal corridors visible like on your photo, even on the pictures the OMFS took of me I have a 12 teeth smile. I wonder why a ~5mm difference between me and you look so different.

The size of your teeth look small, have you had any interproximal reduction done? Also looks like your central incisors have been grinded down, do you have bruxism? What's going on with your first molar on the right side, why is it pushed out like that?

 

[Deleted member 2729]

Can sarpe and msdo fuck up your harmony and ratios?

 

[NegativeNorwood]

Are you sure you are measuring your IMW correctly, looking at your picture it looks narrower. I am 39.1 mm IMW measuring the John Mew way and confirmed it with measuring it in my CBCT scan. My smile is 12 teeth, and when I smile as broad as I can there are no buccal corridors visible like on your photo, even on the pictures the OMFS took of me I have a 12 teeth smile. I wonder why a ~5mm difference between me and you look so different.

The size of your teeth look small, have you had any interproximal reduction done? Also looks like your central incisors have been grinded down, do you have bruxism? What's going on with your first molar on the right side, why is it pushed out like that?

Long story.
I'm 30 years old and was a smoker for 12 consecutive years (until 11 months ago), had bad oral hygiene (was dumb and bluepilled as fuck) and bad habits due to stress (used the grind my teeth and developed bruxism while having a class 1 occlusion). Fortunately I was able to stop bruxism learning good oral posture and not grinding my teeth. Improved my oral hygiene a lot in the last few years too.
Unfortunately for me, all of the shit I done has caused many issues to me, which you can see in my pic and my CT scans:

- Had 6 extractions (4 wisdom tooth and 2 molars)
- Had developed many cavities (which now are filled except one on my left canine)
- Grinded down my central incisors due to bruxism (never had interproximal reduction done).
- No idea why that molar looks "pushed out" now.

I already had a narrow smile, but now obviously looks much worse than before. I've done the measurement many times and always had 34,7mm and 36,7mm results. My skull is broad as fuck, I have 99th percentile zygo width, so maybe that's why the result is average but it looks small in relation to it:

My plan is:
- Have SARPE and MSDO to achieve wider upper and lower palates (and chin).
- Invisalign (obligatory due to SARPE and MSDO).
- Replace the fillings with 4 different dental onlays.
- Have two molar implants done.
- Veneers (this are going to be done later, because I'll have jaw and infraorbital implants done plus a corner lip lift with fat transfer before them, so the veeners can harmonize better with the new lips and face in general).

This should take care of everything. In some months I'll have a consult with a maxfac and with my ortho about this and came up with a solid plan. I should have enough money for it in january at this current pace. I'm going to have a 12 tooth, perfect smile and monke tier good habits (which I already have now btw). Having my shitty smile is awful, and I'm prepared to pay for both my stupidity and my bad luck and fix it the right way.

 

[Erik-Jón]

Literally the first thing normies notice.
Even in Photofeeler, there's always someone that comments, irrespectibly of how good looking you are: "would prefer if you were smiling".

This is what a winner smile looks like:

Notice how successful, approachable, friendly and confident he looks at first glance, legit can't lose at life.

Look at this brutal comparison between someone with a proper, 12 tooth smile and someone with a narrow, 6 tooth smile and large buccal corridors:

SARPE (widens the upper palate) and MSDO (widens the lower palate and chin) + braces are the way to go from a narrow, cuck smile with large visible buccal corridors to a winner, main character 12 tooth smile without visible buccal corridors.

Tagging some chads.org members

@RealSurgerymax
@UglyGod360 @

@

@Acromegaly_Chad @

@

@Gaia262 @

@

@Xangsane @

@

@Korea @

@

@TheLordMadness @

@

@Amnesia @

@P@Preston @

@

@Prettyboy @

@

@Looksmax25 @

@

@ForeverRecession
@tyronelite
@Leonardo DiCaprio
@Eduardo DOV
@eduardkoopman
Reply
Report

I had 4 tooth before puberty when I was like 12

 

[NegativeNorwood]

Can sarpe and msdo fuck up your harmony and ratios?

They shouldn't, but good question. MSDO widens the chin so it depends on the starting point. Also widening the lower palate widens the anterior mandible and not the bigonial distance, so it gives you a more U shaped jaw. I'm having custom jaw implants done after it due to my narrow jaw so for me it won't be a problem.

 

[Deleted member 2729]

They shouldn't, but good question. MSDO widens the chin so it depends on the starting point. Also widening the lower palate widens the anterior mandible and not the bigonial distance, so it gives you a more U shaped jaw. I'm having custom jaw implants done after it due to my narrow jaw so for me it won't be a problem.

I believe best procedure is trimax with ramus widening as long as your smile ain't really fucked up

 

[NegativeNorwood]

I believe best procedure is trimax with ramus widening as long as your smile ain't really fucked up

Depends on the person. Have you seen my CT scan here?

Long story.
I'm 30 years old and was a smoker for 12 consecutive years (until 11 months ago), had bad oral hygiene (was dumb and bluepilled as fuck) and bad habits due to stress (used the grind my teeth and developed bruxism while having a class 1 occlusion). Fortunately I was able to stop bruxism learning good oral posture and not grinding my teeth. Improved my oral hygiene a lot in the last few years too.
Unfortunately for me, all of the shit I done has caused many issues to me, which you can see in my pic and my CT scans:

- Had 6 extractions (4 wisdom tooth and 2 molars)
- Had developed many cavities (which now are filled except one on my left canine)
- Grinded down my central incisors due to bruxism (never had interproximal reduction done).
- No idea why that molar looks "pushed out" now.

I already had a narrow smile, but now obviously looks much worse than before. I've done the measurement many times and always had 34,7mm and 36,7mm results. My skull is broad as fuck, I have 99th percentile zygo width, so maybe that's why the result is average but it looks small in relation to it:

View attachment 1767379
View attachment 1767380
View attachment 1767381

My plan is:
- Have SARPE and MSDO to achieve wider upper and lower palates (and chin).
- Invisalign (obligatory due to SARPE and MSDO).
- Replace the fillings with 4 different dental onlays.
- Have two molar implants done.
- Veneers (this are going to be done later, because I'll have jaw and infraorbital implants done plus a corner lip lift with fat transfer before them, so the veeners can harmonize better with the new lips and face in general).

This should take care of everything. In some months I'll have a consult with a maxfac and with my ortho about this and came up with a solid plan. I should have enough money for it in january at this current pace. I'm going to have a 12 tooth, perfect smile and monke tier good habits (which I already have now btw). Having my shitty smile is awful, and I'm prepared to pay for both my stupidity and my bad luck and fix it the right way.

I already have a forward grown jaw and maxilla (sagital plane), my problem is on the transversal plane (lack of width). Trimax would be shit to me (I have a morph of me with a more advanced jaw, looks like complete crap). SARPE, MSDO (chin already square and well projected, just narrow) and custom jaw implants for more width and better shape it's where it is for me.
Forgot to add, SARPE can also widen the nose's alar base, I will also have a rhinoplasty done (which before I omitted for brevity and clarity) so also not a problem to me (needed it anyway, too low nose bridge as you can see on the CT scan and also bulbous tip and hanging ala).

 

[Silver]

Long story.
I'm 30 years old and was a smoker for 12 consecutive years (until 11 months ago), had bad oral hygiene (was dumb and bluepilled as fuck) and bad habits due to stress (used the grind my teeth and developed bruxism while having a class 1 occlusion). Fortunately I was able to stop bruxism learning good oral posture and not grinding my teeth. Improved my oral hygiene a lot in the last few years too.
Unfortunately for me, all of the shit I done has caused many issues to me, which you can see in my pic and my CT scans:

- Had 6 extractions (4 wisdom tooth and 2 molars)
- Had developed many cavities (which now are filled except one on my left canine)
- Grinded down my central incisors due to bruxism (never had interproximal reduction done).
- No idea why that molar looks "pushed out" now.

I already had a narrow smile, but now obviously looks much worse than before. I've done the measurement many times and always had 34,7mm and 36,7mm results. My skull is broad as fuck, I have 99th percentile zygo width, so maybe that's why the result is average but it looks small in relation to it:

View attachment 1767379
View attachment 1767380
View attachment 1767381

My plan is:
- Have SARPE and MSDO to achieve wider upper and lower palates (and chin).
- Invisalign (obligatory due to SARPE and MSDO).
- Replace the fillings with 4 different dental onlays.
- Have two molar implants done.
- Veneers (this are going to be done later, because I'll have jaw and infraorbital implants done plus a corner lip lift with fat transfer before them, so the veeners can harmonize better with the new lips and face in general).

This should take care of everything. In some months I'll have a consult with a maxfac and with my ortho about this and came up with a solid plan. I should have enough money for it in january at this current pace. I'm going to have a 12 tooth, perfect smile and monke tier good habits (which I already have now btw). Having my shitty smile is awful, and I'm prepared to pay for both my stupidity and my bad luck and fix it the right way.

Brutal story, your plan looks solid. SARPE is a good choice for you, your nasal aperture looks wide so you don't really need nasal floor expansion, someone else may have wanted to do EASE or MSE for breathing gains. The state of your teeth looks kinda worrying, your alveolar bone is weak from past orthodontic treatment it seems and you can see the exposed root of one of your canines. You should clear these "worries" with the orthognathic surgeon to make sure SARPE won't actually do more bad than good for you.

SARPE is also rather anterior-heavy in it's expansion, this is why you usually see quite big diastemas in SARPE patients, this may be negative in your case as you'd pref to have expansion in the posterior regions to really get that desired 12 teeth smile.

 

[NegativeNorwood]

Brutal story, your plan looks solid. SARPE is a good choice for you, your nasal aperture looks wide so you don't really need nasal floor expansion, someone else may have wanted to do EASE or MSE for breathing gains. The state of your teeth looks kinda worrying, your alveolar bone is weak from past orthodontic treatment it seems and you can see the exposed root of one of your canines. You should clear these "worries" with the orthognathic surgeon to make sure SARPE won't actually do more bad than good for you.

SARPE is also rather anterior-heavy in it's expansion, this is why you usually see quite big diastemas in SARPE patients, this may be negative in your case as you'd pref to have expansion in the posterior regions to really get that desired 12 teeth smile.

Thank you so much! Didn't knew this (the preferred posterior expansion, weak alveolar bone and the exposed root of one of the canines), will definitely bring this up once I do an official consult. Yes, I would like to avoid nasal expansion as much as possible. Again, thanks for the valuable info!

 

[DyingHope]

I'll never have an ideal smile, but my crossbite will be fixed in a few months.

Progress so far using invisalign.

 

[CLO1]

I'm 30, have good sized, white teeth, but only a 6 tooth smile. I went to an orthodontist to see if they can give me a wider smile with invisalign and he said he could move some of my molars out a bit but that my canines are as wide as they can be for where the bone is. It doesn't seem like that is what is

Is MSE as unreliable as some report in terms of failing to work and also causing asymmetry?

Are my only options if I wanted a wider smile SARPE + MSDO? Are there any situations in which somebody could only get SARPE without MSDO also?

Here are pics from that ortho visit

.

Should I just live with it?

 

[DyingHope]

Should I just live with it?

You have big masculine teeth and at least you have upper canines [the most important teeth in the mouth] , instead of my useless dentist making room, mine were just ripped out!

Celebrities like Henry Cavill only show 6 teeth or so too, so I wouldn't worry that much.

 

[NegativeNorwood]

I'm 30, have good sized, white teeth, but only a 6 tooth smile. I went to an orthodontist to see if they can give me a wider smile with invisalign and he said he could move some of my molars out a bit but that my canines are as wide as they can be for where the bone is. It doesn't seem like that is what is

Is MSE as unreliable as some report in terms of failing to work and also causing asymmetry?

Are my only options if I wanted a wider smile SARPE + MSDO? Are there any situations in which somebody could only get SARPE without MSDO also?

Here are pics from that ortho visit
View attachment 1767628. View attachment 1767630

Should I just live with it?

You can get SARPE and MSDO to widen both arches if you wanted to. Many people only gets SARPE, MSDO is done way less frequently. You should consult with a maxillofacial surgeon about it.

 

[NegativeNorwood]

@Silver Just to be sure, when you mention posterior expansion with SARPE, you mean more expansion to the very last molars than the intermediate ones? I've always thought that SARPE expanded the entire smile, like this:

Lots of of posterior expansion would be needed for a smile like Rodrigo Guirao's from what I can understand, it seems very wide in every direction, posterior and anteriorly, very full and not "flat" like mine or most people's smile:

My goal is to have that kind of full and wide, not just wide but flat smile. Again thanks for the help bro.

 

[Silver]

@Silver Just to be sure, when you mention posterior expansion with SARPE, you mean more expansion to the very last molars than the intermediate ones? I've always thought that SARPE expanded the entire smile, like this:

Lots of of posterior expansion would be needed for a smile like Rodrigo Guirao's from what I can understand, it seems very wide in every direction, posterior and anteriorly, very full and not "flat" like mine or most people's smile:

My goal is to have that kind of full and wide, not just wide but flat smile. Again thanks for the help bro.

So the thing is that SARPE doesn't provide full paralell expansion between the ANS and the PNS, I wrote about it in this thread but I talked about MSE, but same thing applies to SARPE.

SARPE expands you more in the ANS which is why you often have that big diastema, it fails to expand the PNS as much as it expands the ANS. This is why you don't get full breathing benefits but at the same time it also means that the maxilla isn't expanded in that part.

In the picture I've attached you can see the red lines which resemble the shape of a cone. This is the classic cone shape expansion that happens in SARPE and MSE bearers, the posterior part of the maxilla, the posterior nasal spine doesn't expand as much as the anterior nasal spine. When you don't have maxillary expansion what could happen is that the device you're wearing, for you it would be the RPE (Rapid Palatal Expander), will start digging into your gums and only push the teeth outwards. Although you're literally cutting the maxilla in half through the maxillary midline with SARPE you will still be met with resistance which is when the expansion device starts cutting into your gums etc. and this is because SARPE is poorly designed imo.

So basically, due to failure to expand the PNS, you won't see ideal expansion of the teeth in that region as you'd see in the ANS. It could probably be aligned with invisalign or braces, I've seen some extremely shitty palates being "expanded" through invisalign only.

If I'm not clear, let me know so I can elaborate more.

 

[NegativeNorwood]

So the thing is that SARPE doesn't provide full paralell expansion between the ANS and the PNS, I wrote about it in this thread but I talked about MSE, but same thing applies to SARPE.

SARPE expands you more in the ANS which is why you often have that big diastema, it fails to expand the PNS as much as it expands the ANS. This is why you don't get full breathing benefits but at the same time it also means that the maxilla isn't expanded in that part.

View attachment 1768053
In the picture I've attached you can see the red lines which resemble the shape of a cone. This is the classic cone shape expansion that happens in SARPE and MSE bearers, the posterior part of the maxilla, the posterior nasal spine doesn't expand as much as the anterior nasal spine. When you don't have maxillary expansion what could happen is that the device you're wearing, for you it would be the RPE (Rapid Palatal Expander), will start digging into your gums and only push the teeth outwards. Although you're literally cutting the maxilla in half through the maxillary midline with SARPE you will still be met with resistance which is when the expansion device starts cutting into your gums etc. and this is because SARPE is poorly designed imo.

So basically, due to failure to expand the PNS, you won't see ideal expansion of the teeth in that region as you'd see in the ANS. It could probably be aligned with invisalign or braces, I've seen some extremely shitty palates being "expanded" through invisalign only.

If I'm not clear, let me know so I can elaborate more.

You sir are an angel, thank you for sharing such valuable info!
I've googled Kasey Li and found this on his website, the result mimics the type of smile I posted (Rodrigo Guirao), with that full, not flat arch:

Do you know if there's an equivalent to EASE for the lower palate? Or MSDO will suffice?

Will try to find an EASE practicioner in Spain or Europe, if I can't I will go to Kasey Li for it. Do you know aprox. how much he charges for EASE? In Spain SARPE is around 3500€-5000€, and MSDO is around that same price too. Again, thanks for the detailed explanation, you are really helping me a lot.