2 strong correlations I have noticed

[Deleted member 9467]

Wide palates = wide ipd, narrow palate w dark corners = below average ipds

High set eyebrows = more ear tilt (this is rly noticeable in women)

 

[StrangerDanger]

Is there any biological explanation for this
@MisterMercedes

 

[MisterMercedes]

Is there any biological explanation for this
@MisterMercedes

Not sure about the high set eyebrows and ear tilt (never heard of this and could just be an illusion caused by the high set eyebrows).

However, I am sure there is a correlation between wide palates and wide IPD, and vice verse. Both are caused by high prenatal testosterone exposure in the womb.

Same way long palate is most likely correlated with long mandible. They are not dependent on each other but correlated as both are caused by high prenatal T.

 

[antiantifa]

Not sure about the high set eyebrows and ear tilt (never heard of this and could just be an illusion caused by the high set eyebrows).

However, I am sure there is a correlation between wide palates and wide IPD, and vice verse. Both are caused by high prenatal testosterone exposure in the womb.

Same way long palate is most likely correlated with long mandible. They are not dependent on each other but correlated as both are caused by high prenatal T.

muh prental T cope always not ur fault

 

[MisterMercedes]

muh prental T cope always not ur fault

Prenatal sex hormones, digit ratio, and face shape in adult males

Several reports have demonstrated a relationship between second to fourth digit ratio (2D:4D) and facial shape, suggesting that prenatal sex hormones play a role in the development of the craniofacial complex. Using 3D surface imaging and geometric morphometrics, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

(PDF) 2D:4D and Sexually Dimorphic Facial Characteristics

PDF | The second-to-fourth-digit ratio (2D:4D) may be related to prenatal testosterone and estrogen levels and pubertal face growth. Several studies... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

 

[antiantifa]

Prenatal sex hormones, digit ratio, and face shape in adult males

Several reports have demonstrated a relationship between second to fourth digit ratio (2D:4D) and facial shape, suggesting that prenatal sex hormones play a role in the development of the craniofacial complex. Using 3D surface imaging and geometric morphometrics, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

(PDF) 2D:4D and Sexually Dimorphic Facial Characteristics

PDF | The second-to-fourth-digit ratio (2D:4D) may be related to prenatal testosterone and estrogen levels and pubertal face growth. Several studies... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

Correlation, not causation. It's known that brachy individuals have different hormone profile, sleep differently, react to stress differently, etc...

 

[MisterMercedes]

Correlation, not causation. It's known that brachy individuals have different hormone profile, sleep differently, react to stress differently, etc...

I don’t know what the brachy reference is meant to prove, but these studies pretty much explicitly say it’s causative:

“It was concluded that certain aspects of facial development are governed by factors that are established prenatally.”

After all, in the womb is where development begins. A relationship between high prenatal T and certain facial characteristics pretty much has to be causative.

 

[antiantifa]

I don’t know what the brachy reference is meant to prove, but these studies pretty much explicitly say it’s causative:

“It was concluded that certain aspects of facial development are governed by factors that are established prenatally.”

After all, in the womb is where development begins. A relationship between high prenatal T and certain facial characteristics pretty much has to be causative.

Lol how can that be concluded based on correlational data, have they ever injected T into an animal and measured facial dimensions?

It makes no sense because men with hypogonadism have normal faces. Maternal T levels are likely related to brachy profile, which means it's in the genes to have a wide faces, not in the hormones.

 

[MisterMercedes]

Lol how can that be concluded based on correlational data, have they ever injected T into an animal and measured facial dimensions?

It makes no sense because men with hypogonadism have normal faces. Maternal T levels are likely related to brachy profile, which means it's in the genes to have a wide faces, not in the hormones

I’m guessing It’s concluded based on the rationale that, if prenatal androgen exposure is positively correlated with certain facial characteristics, and prenatal androgen exposure is where facial and body development first begins/is first affected by, it must be prenatal androgen exposure as the root cause as it is the first factor at play.

Hypogonadism affects one After prenatal androgen exposure, not during. If anything you’re arguing that prenatal T has more of an effect on face than pubertal, which I would agree with.

Most results of hypogonadism I see show males with fat bodies, large breasts, and bloated faces:

Again, The genes of the mother are the main determinant of prenatal androgen exposure. They are not exclusive.

 

[antiantifa]

I’m guessing It’s concluded based on the rationale that, if prenatal androgen exposure is positively correlated with certain facial characteristics, and prenatal androgen exposure is where facial and body development first begins/is first affected by, it must be prenatal androgen exposure as the root cause as it is the first factor at play.

Hypogonadism affects one After prenatal androgen exposure, not during. If anything you’re arguing that prenatal T has more of an effect on face than pubertal, which I would agree with.

Most results of hypogonadism I see show males with fat bodies, large breasts, and bloated faces:

View attachment 1185653

Again, The genes of the mother are the main determinant of prenatal androgen exposure. They are not exclusive.

If prenatal T was so important why do bodybuilders get to giga-big levels of muscle growth, since after natal T levels are not as important?

And why do a lot of FtM transgenders change so much, almost fully becoming men except down there?

 

[MisterMercedes]

If prenatal T was so important why do bodybuilders get to giga-big levels of muscle growth, since after natal T levels are not as important?

And why do a lot of FtM transgenders change so much, almost fully becoming men except down there?

Pubertal T is definitely important, especially for muscle size. Bodybuilders getting more muscles off steroids doesn’t prove prenatal T isn’t a major factor in facial masculinity.

You would need to give an example of a transgender you think changed significantly enough to actually look like they’re desired gender. Most ones I see are pretty obvious.