A Superior Guide to Your First Steroid Cycle - Everything You NEED to Know Regarding your First Cycle and Female Perception of the Male Body

[Lorri19]

amazing thread

Fire asf just hopped on ru and 2.5 mgs for hairloss and if it gets better i’ll probably hop on tho i do enjoy the twink look for some types of drip

How often do you have to take duatasride/ru if u are running a cycle is it daily?

 

[Jgns]

How often do you have to take duatasride/ru if u are running a cycle is it daily?

nah im not on a cycle but I take 2.5 mgs of dut daily and 2 mls of ru daily

 

[Genio]

Are you a framelet?

View attachment 4865740

Do you want women swarming you like this wherever you go?
View attachment 4865708View attachment 4865712


Do you want to framemog the ASU Frat Leader?

View attachment 4865716

Do you want to be admired just for existing by your friends, peers, girls, and even strangers?

Well look no further, this thread will be your introduction into being born again as a slayer, through the means of framemaxxing with PEDS!

Natty Lifting is COPE meant to keep you away from the big leagues. The average "decent physique" takes years to attain, the same physique is 1 starter cycle of 16 weeks away. A good frame looksmatches you higher instantly at an insanely good ROI for you.

View attachment 4867011View attachment 4867012View attachment 4867015

You want these types of looksmatches, have the face, but still can't get it? Look below to find out why.


View attachment 4866987


Which one of the men above do you think would have a higher chance of slaying?


Studies proving that frame/physique/strength are insanely important for attractiveness.

Study/Author	Focus Area	Key Finding
Sell et al. (2017)	Physical Strength	Strength is the #1 predictor of bodily attractiveness.
Pazhoohi et al. (2019)	Shoulder-to-Hip Ratio	High SHR (broad shoulders) = higher attractiveness.
Dixson et al. (2010)	Cross-Cultural Body Shape	V-taper is preferred across Western and non-Western cultures.
Maisey et al. (1999)	Waist-to-Chest Ratio	WCR is the most important component of male attractiveness.
Provost et al. (2008)	Mating Strategy	Women seeking short-term mates show a higher preference for muscularity.
Hönekopp et al. (2007)	Physical Fitness	Women can accurately "smell" and "see" fitness and prefer it.
Tognetti et al. (2013)	Formidability	Muscularity signals the ability to protect and provide resources.

And yeah I have the sources too.

Here are the direct links to the research papers and academic summaries regarding male muscularity, frame, and attractiveness:

Spoiler: Sources

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5745404/
(Sell, Lukazsweski, & Townsley, 2017: The dominant role of physical strength in male attractiveness)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10480816/
(Frederick & Haselton, 2007: Men’s Bodily Attractiveness: Muscles as Fitness Indicators)
https://www.researchgate.net/public...eterminants_of_Sexual_Attractiveness_to_Women
(Dixson et al., 2003: Preference for mesomorphic/muscular somatotypes and V-taper)
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40750-023-00212-3
(Pazhoohi, Garza, & Kingstone, 2023: Sexual Selection and the Male Shoulder-to-Hip Ratio)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24958664/
(Coy & Green, 2014: Why low waist-to-chest ratio is attractive)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1634963/
(Fan et al., 2005: Visual perception of male body attractiveness and volume height index)
https://www.ehbonline.org/article/S1090-5138(09)00032-4/fulltext
(Lassek & Gaulin, 2009: Costs and benefits of fat-free muscle mass in men)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10359341/
(Maisey et al., 1999: Characteristics of male attractiveness: WHR vs. WCR)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10480609/
(Braun & Bryan, 2006: Female Preferences for Strong Men)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/225078516_Geometric_morphometrics_of_male_bodies_and_the_perception_of_physical_attractiveness
(Windhager et al., 2011: Broad shoulders as a signal of fitness)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4685550/
(Hönekopp et al., 2007: Physical fitness and attractiveness)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232497645_Waist-to-hip_ratio_and_attractiveness_of_the_male_body
(Henss, 2000: Attractiveness of the V-shaped male body)
https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/ecology-and-evolution/articles/10.3389/fevo.2022.860797/full
(Durkee et al., 2019: Physical strength as a cue for high status and attractiveness)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27488414/
(Dixson et al., 2016: Interaction of muscularity and facial hair in long-term and short-term attraction)
https://www.ehbonline.org/article/S1090-5138(10)00015-8/fulltext
(Puts, 2010: Sexual selection and the evolution of male formidability)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6328455/
(Little et al., 2011: Body composition effects on masculinity and attractiveness)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15705545/
(Fan et al., 2005: 3D scanning study on male body proportions)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/233821035_The_waist-to-chest_ratio_and_not_the_waist-to-hip_ratio_is_the_primary_determinant_of_male_body_attractiveness
(Swami & Tovée, 2005: WCR as the primary driver of male attractiveness)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/26257218_Male_attractiveness_Physical_strength_and_reproductive_success
(Goulding et al., 2010: Strength as a predictor of reproductive success)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23569234/
(Mautz et al., 2013: Interaction of height, shoulder-to-hip ratio, and attractiveness)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3130383/
(Price et al., 2012: Bodily attractiveness and physical fitness in men)

Still coping? Here's an entire thread on it: https://looksmax.org/threads/gymcel...body-the-same-way-we-do-its-100-legit.256601/

Not coping? Let's get into it then.
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I've decided to make this thread on a whim and ended up making it for my 1000th post special. The current BOTB "First Steroid Cycle" (https://looksmax.org/threads/first-steroid-cycle.10771/) is a good thread with some good information, however it was posted in 2019. We have a very large amount of information and optimization that needs to be put forward and known by the general public, including some critical safety information that the original thread simply glosses over. This creates the illusion of a completely safe reality with steroids which is completely untrue, while steroids are possibly the most fearmongered substance in existence, and aren't even 1/5th of as dangerous as the media makes them out to be, their high profile on this site creates the inaccurate polarized opinion that they are "completely safe with no risks." This is not the case. All you have to to search up is "balding" and "steroid" together in the search bar to see the mass amount of users that are either worried or suffering the real risk of balding from AAS. This is a very real risk with all steroids, there is no such thing as a hair safe steroid maybe besides Anavar which you don't really run by itself ever. Balding is a terrible loss from steroids, if not recovered instantly, it's about a $4000 to $15000 loss since you have to get a hair transplant and that money could've been used for actual hardmaxxing, so it's a massive loss. This isn't even accounting for other, actual health risks such as liver and heart damage.


However this is not a fearmongering thread, nearly 100% of all risks from steroids can be mitigated and in some cases, vaporized with other supplements. A fair warning, this does mean you have to spend more. There is no such thing as a "cheap cycle." Users see that Test E costs $40 and immediately assume they can use their birthday money for a cycle. This is not the case at all. With no further ado, let's get straight into it.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Your first steroid cycle should consist of a 16 week bulk cycle running 500mg Testosterone Enanthate. I will quote the original cycle thread on why 500mg Test is superior to 250mg which is considered a "safe beginner cycle" by a lot of users.


So what will we need for the cycle?

We will be using 2 main compounds, unlike general consensus, it is a better idea to use Testosterone with HGH due to its significant synergetic benefits, and good risk to benefit ratio (HGH is given to children.)

1. 4x 10ml vials of Testosterone Enanthate dosed at 250mg/ml (Goes over 16 weeks, who cares it's always nice to have some extra. Test is cheap anyways. Only buy 3 if money is really that tight, although if you're struggling with an extra $15, perhaps you shouldn't be doing a cycle.)
2. HGH - Commonly sold in 20 vials x 36iu which is 720 iu HGH in total. This will be more than enough for you to run 4 - 8 iu everyday from the start to the end of your cycle.

But wait? Aren't you supposed to run a Test only cycle for your first cycle? Why run HGH? Well to answer this, we need to look into what Testosterone and HGH do for bodybuilding by themselves.

What is Testosterone Enanthate?

Testosterone enanthate is a long-acting, injectable androgen ester used medically to treat low testosterone (hypogonadism). In bodybuilding, it is used to significantly increase protein synthesis, accelerating muscle growth, strength, and recovery rates. It acts as a slow-release compound, typically administered every 5 to 7 days.

What is Human Growth Hormone (HGH)?

Human Growth Hormone (HGH), or somatotropin, is a natural hormone produced by the pituitary gland that regulates growth, metabolism, and cell repair. In bodybuilding, HGH primarily functions as a metabolic and cellular repair agent by stimulating the liver to release IGF-1, which promotes the growth of bone, cartilage, and new muscle tissue (hyperplasia). Beyond structural growth, it acts as a potent fat-burner by mobilizing stored fatty acids to be used for energy while improving overall recovery and systemic healing.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

So now that we have an idea on what these two are, we have to figure out, why on earth would you want to run these two together? Well it comes down to risk management and the actual results you get when you combine these two.

Reason 1: Synergy

I mentioned this before, but what does it mean? Well HGH and Testosterone are part of the 3 main pathways of anabolism, being Testosterone, HGH, and Insulin (although Insulin is a dangerous compound that could kill you and for those reasons, should be avoided until you are very well versed in AAS and have done multiple cycles, and if you're reading this to learn more, you aren't. Credits to Sadist for this information, you can find his thread on insulin here if you're interested.)

How do they synergize?

1. IGF-1

The primary way these two synergize is through the regulation of Insulin-like Growth Factor 1 (IGF-1).

HGH: When you inject HGH, the liver converts much of it into IGF-1, which is the primary driver of systemic tissue growth and cellular repair.
Testosterone: Testosterone also increases IGF-1 levels, but more importantly, it increases the sensitivity of the androgen receptors and enhances the local expression of IGF-1 within the muscle tissue itself.
Result: You get a massive spike in both circulating and localized IGF-1, leading to significantly more protein synthesis than either compound could achieve alone.

2. Complementary Nitrogen Retention​

Muscle growth is essentially a game of maintaining a positive nitrogen balance.

Testosterone is a causes Nitrogen Retention. It signals the muscle cells to hold onto more nitrogen, which is a fundamental building block of protein.
HGH focuses on Hyperplasia and Hypertrophy. While testosterone makes existing muscle fibers larger (hypertrophy), HGH is believed to potentially aid in the creation of new muscle cells (hyperplasia) and strengthening the collagen structures (tendons/ligaments) that support those muscles.

3. Nutrient Partitioning & Metabolic Efficiency​

This is where you actually feel the synergy. They work together to decide where your calories go.

Fat Loss: HGH is highly lipolytic, meaning it mobilizes body fat to be used as energy.
Muscle Sparing: Testosterone prevents the breakdown of muscle (anticatabolism) while you are in a fat-burning state.
Result: This duo allows for "recomposition," the ability to lose body fat while simultaneously gaining or maintaining significant lean mass, as the body uses the liberated fat stores to fuel the protein synthesis triggered by the testosterone.

4. Structural Support ​

High levels of testosterone can increase strength so rapidly that your tendons and ligaments can't keep up, leading to tears.

HGH increases collagen synthesis. It strengthens the connective tissues and bone density. (This also helps your skin.)
By adding HGH to a Test cycle, you are essentially allowing your body to handle the power provided by the testosterone.

Reason 2: ROI (Return On Investment)

1. Breaking the Myostatin Barrier​

On a Testosterone cycle, the body eventually fights back by increasing Myostatin, a protein that acts to stop muscle growth. HGH (via IGF-1) has been shown to help suppress Myostatin levels. By running both, you are effectively allowing for growth that would otherwise plateau.

2. Quality of Gains ​

A "Test-only" cycle often results in significant weight gain, but a large portion of that is water and glycogen.

Testosterone Only: High strength, but often accompanied by a "puffy" look and increased body fat if calories are high.
Testosterone + HGH: Because HGH increases lipolysis (fat mobilization), it forces the body to use fat for fuel. This means that for every 10 lbs gained on the scale, a much higher percentage is actual contractile muscle tissue rather than water or fat.

3. Accelerated Recovery​

In any cycle, the "cost" is the wear and tear on your joints and the time it takes to recover.

Testosterone Only: Increases strength faster than tendons can adapt, often leading to injuries that stall progress.
Testosterone + HGH: HGH significantly increases collagen synthesis. This heals micro-tears in connective tissue in real-time. The ROI here is longevity; you can train harder, more frequently, and for more weeks at a time without your body breaking down.

4. Maximizing the Risk-to-Reward Ratio​

Using performance-enhancing drugs is a gamble with your long-term health; you are putting strain on your cardiovascular system, kidneys, and endocrine health regardless of which compounds you choose.

Underwhelming Results: Running a Testosterone cycle alone still carries the same risks, but you are limited by the body’s natural plateaus and the sloppy gains of water and fat. Adding HGH to the cycle allows you to achieve a level of cellular change (hyperplasia) and body composition refinement that Testosterone simply cannot provide on its own.

If you are already willing to pay the biological tax of a cycle, spending the extra money on HGH ensures you aren't just getting a temporary, bloated look, but are instead squeezing every possible ounce of permanent tissue growth and recovery out of the risk you're taking.

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Now that we have gotten the "why" out of the way, let's get into the "how."

What you will need for injections:

Testosterone:
- 30 syringes with needles gauge 25 or 27. Must be at least 1 cc. Needles should be 1" long for glute injection and 0.5" for quads. If you are fat then add an extra half inch to each.
- Alcohol wipes.

HGH:
- Insulin Syringes: Choose 29–31 gauge, 0.5 ml or 1 ml syringes with short 8mm needles.
- Alcohol Swabs: For disinfecting the vial tops and your skin.
- Bacteriostatic Water (BAC Water): To mix your HGH.
- Sharps Container: For safe disposal of used needles.

How to inject Testosterone (via .net)

Wipe the lid of the vial with an alcohol wipe. Pull back the syringe to the amount you intend to draw up (eg. 1 mL) and stick the needle in the vial. Shoot that much air into the vial and draw up the amount you want. You will get air as well. Just keep shooting the air back into the vial and drawing back until you actually have the right amount of roids.

Wipe a spot on your ass with alcohol. You can inject into the muscle (IM or intramuscular) or into the fat (SC or subcutaneous). Most people do IM. If you're doing that, you need to inject into safe spots to not hit a nerve. In the ass, that's the upper outer aspect:
View attachment 4866517

How to inject HGH

Gently pinch a small fold of skin at your chosen injection site (preferably the abdomen.) Hold the syringe at a 45-degree angle and stick the needle into the skin. Push the plunger down slowly to inject the HGH. Once you're done, pull the needle out and use a cotton swab to apply light pressure to the spot if you need to.
View attachment 4866564

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Now it is time to go through all the things you will need to nuke all the side effects from steroids. Everything I mention below is a must buy or else you will botch your cycle, your health, and yourself.

Side Effect	Cause	What Supplement To Use
Gyno / Bloat	Estrogen	Aromatase Inhibitors
Hair Loss	DHT	3mg Dutasteride & RU58841 5%
Acne	DHT	Accutane 10-40mg (Isotretinoin)
Shrunken Balls	Shut down of HPTA	HCG (100 - 250 IU every other day)
Testosterone Suppression	Exogenous Testosterone	Nolvadex 20mg daily (2 weeks after your last injection

I will go over each in more detail below:

1. Aromatase Inhibitors

Why do you need an aromatase inhibitor (AI)?

Your body as a man needs estrogen to function. Your body makes estrogen by converting testosterone via the aromatase enzyme. When you start taking excess testosterone, your body starts creating more estrogen via aromatizing to reach homeostasis. Excess estrogen can result in gyno, extreme bloat, being highly emotional and other unpleasant side effects. For this reason, we take an aromatase inhibitor to keep estrogen levels lower. However, it is important not to take to much AI because low estrogen also has bad side effects and inhibits your ability to build muscle.

Arimidex and Aromasin are the two best choices for aromatase inhibitors for most people. 1mg of Arimidex has similar anti-estrogen effects as 25mg of Aromasin. However some people take Letrozole as well so I will also include that below.

Property	Anastrozole (Arimidex)	Letrozole (Femara)	Exemestane (Aromasin)
Type	Non-steroidal, reversible	Non-steroidal, reversible	Steroidal, irreversible
Estrogen Suppression	~50–70% (dose dependent)	~80–98% (very potent)	~65–85% (irreversible)
Half-Life	~48 hrs	~40–60 hrs	~24–27 hrs
Rebound Risk	Medium if stopped fast	High (sharp increase)	Low (enzyme destroyed)
Titration Precision	High (easy microdose)	Moderate to difficult	Low (fixed dose tabs)
Bone Impact	Mild (long-term)	moderate to severe	moderate
Lipid impact	Mild, but could affect HDL	Moderate to severe	moderate
Onset of Suppression	~24 hours	Within hours	~24 hours (stronger than Anastrozole)
Peak Suppression	~2–4 days	~2–3 days	~2–3 days

PRICES

Source	Anastrozole Price (1mg)	Letrozole Price (2.5mg)	Exemestane Price (25mg)
Pharma (Brand)	$5–$10	$8–$15	$10–$20
Generic (Indian)	$0.50–$1.50	$1–$3	$1–$4
UGL (Chinese)	$0.20–$0.50	$0.30–$1	$0.30–$1

SIDE EFFECTS

Side Effect	Anastrozole (Arimidex)	Letrozole (Femera)	Exemestane (Aromasin)
Hot flashes	Common	Common	Common
Joint pain	Moderate	Moderate to severe	Mild to moderate
Fatigue	Mild to moderate	Moderate	Mild to moderate
Bone density loss	Mild (long-term use)	More severe if misused	Moderate (monitor needed)
Nausea	Mild	Mild to moderate	Mild
Mood changes	Possible	Possible	Possible
Headache	Occasionally	Occasionally	Occasionally
Increased cholesterol	Mild	Moderate to severe	Moderate
Muscle pain	Mild	Moderate	Mild

^ Cannot find the thread but I've had this information saved from a heightmaxxing thread (cope.)

I personally recommend Aromasin, although it is more expensive and harsher on hair. We will go over hair next.

2. Hair Loss

RU58841:

RU58841 acts as a topical androgen receptor antagonist that competes directly with dihydrotestosterone (DHT) for binding sites on hair follicles. By occupying these receptors, it prevents DHT from triggering the follicle miniaturization process without significantly lowering systemic hormone levels in the rest of the body. The 5% variant of this is preferred.

Dutasteride:

Dutasteride is a potent 5-alpha reductase inhibitor that works by blocking both Type I and Type II enzymes, which are responsible for converting testosterone into dihydrotestosterone (DHT). By reducing systemic and scalp DHT levels by up to 90% or more, it effectively halts the miniaturization of hair follicles and creates an environment where regrowth is possible. Take 2.5 - 3mg minimum.

View attachment 4866791
(Pic courtesy of SlayerJonas)

3. Acne

Accutane (Isotretinoin):

Accutane (Isotretinoin) addresses acne at the source by permanently shrinking the sebaceous glands and drastically reducing the amount of oil (sebum) they produce. This prevents pores from clogging and creates an inhospitable environment for acne-causing bacteria, often leading to long-term or permanent remission of severe breakouts.


4. Shrunken Balls

HCG:

Instead of waiting until the end to fix atrophy, you should run HCG throughout your entire cycle to prevent your testicles from shrinking in the first place. Use a dose of 250iu every other day to provide a constant signal to the Leydig cells, keeping them functional and full-sized so that your eventual recovery is much faster and more reliable.

Now there is alot of misinformation going around when it comes to this stuff. It artificially gets your balls to start making testosterone, it does not restart your whole complex natural system of different glands and hormones communicating with each other to make your balls produce testosterone (it is known as the HTPA or hypothalamic–pituitary–gonadal axis). That is why it should not be used during PCT. People who use this as their PCT feel great while they are using it but as soon as they come off will have low T because they never restarted HTPA. (via jefferson)

5. Testosterone Suppression

PCT - Nolvadex:

On Testosterone Enanthate, you want to wait 2 weeks after your last injection to let the drug clear before you start your PCT. For a 12-15 week cycle, the standard is a 6 week PCT taking 20mg of Nolvadex daily.

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Debunking Common Natty Copes:

1. "They still have to work just as hard."​

Cope: "Steroids only work if you train like a beast; otherwise, they do nothing."
Reality: Research (notably the 1996 Bhasin study) showed that men taking 600mg of Test-E who did not work out gained more lean muscle mass than natural men who did work out. While gear makes hard work more effective, it also makes laziness more productive than natural effort.

2. "It's all water weight."​

Cope: "They just look big because they’re bloated; it’ll all disappear once they go off."
Reality: While certain compounds (like Dbol) cause water retention, steroids primarily drive myofibrillar hypertrophy (actual muscle fiber growth). Furthermore, HGH and certain steroids can cause hyperplasia, the splitting of muscle cells, creating permanent structural changes that a natural lifter can never achieve.

3. "The 'Natty Limit' is higher than people think."​

Cope: If I just train for 20 years and eat perfectly, I can look like [insert fake-natty influencer].
Reality: The Fat-Free Mass Index (FFMI) is a reliable ceiling. Most humans naturally top out at an FFMI of around 25. Influencers who are 220lbs and 8% body fat are statistically impossible to achieve without exogenous hormones.

4. "I’d rather have 'real' muscle."​

Cope: "Natural muscle is denser and stays better than "fake" steroid muscle."
Reality: Muscle tissue is muscle tissue. The contractile proteins (actin and myosin) are the same. While an enhanced lifter will lose the "super-physiological" fullness when they come off, they will still retain a higher baseline of muscle than they ever could have reached naturally due to increased myonuclei count.

5. "Steroids will give you 'Roid Rage' and turn you into a monster."​

Cope: "Every gear user is a ticking time bomb of aggression."
Reality: While certain compounds (like Trenbolone) can increase irritability, "Roid Rage" is largely a myth for those with stable mental health. Most users on a sensible Test/HGH cycle report feeling better, more confident, and more stable due to optimized hormone levels.

6. "They have no discipline/took the easy way out."​

Cope: "Going to the gym naturally is "harder" and shows more character."
Reality: Enhanced lifters often train harder and longer because their recovery allows for it. Being "natural" is often a choice of health and longevity, but it doesn't automatically grant a "discipline" trophy. Taking 500mg of Test doesn't make the 405lb squat any lighter.

7. "Their organs are going to explode tomorrow."​

Cope: "Anyone on gear is going to die by age 40."
Reality: While the risks are real (left ventricular hypertrophy, kidney strain), many users mitigate these through frequent blood work, ancillary drugs (like HCG and AI), and cruising on TRT doses rather than constant blasting. It’s a calculated risk, not a guaranteed death sentence.

8. "It’s all about the 'Lighting and Angles'."​

Cope: "That guy only looks big because of the gym mirrors and a pump."
Reality: No amount of lighting can fake the 3D "cannonball" delts and "traps-to-ears" look that comes from a high density of androgen receptors in the upper body, features that are the "dead giveaway" of an enhanced physique.

9. "I'll catch up to them eventually."​

Cope: "If I stay natty for 10 years, I'll be bigger than the guy who did a 16-week cycle."
Reality: A single, well-executed cycle can put more lean mass on a frame than 3 - 5 years of perfect natural lifting. The "gap" doesn't close, it widens every year the other person stays enhanced.

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TL;DR:
Steroid downsides: Preventable minor stuff.
The Upsides:
View attachment 4867007View attachment 4867038

Ascend TODAY.

Your perfect life awaits you, your hot wife, your high paying job, the admiration from everyone you meet no matter what, your future kid's respect for you. All of this may be few cycles away, will you dedicate your life this one time? Or will you let the opportunity pass and some other man do it and live your dream life while you rot away?

The world is yours.

Tagging High Iq Users: @SlayerJonas @Chad @Zagro @Sadist @Sayori how'd I do? Thread was a little rushed due to Jonas' current pinned thread being posted right as I was working on mine although.

This was my 1000th post special, hope you enjoyed!

close to equal post amount, absolutely NEGs my PTRP Ratio, mirin

 

[obelisk0]

Are you a framelet?

View attachment 4865740

Do you want women swarming you like this wherever you go?
View attachment 4865708View attachment 4865712


Do you want to framemog the ASU Frat Leader?

View attachment 4865716

Do you want to be admired just for existing by your friends, peers, girls, and even strangers?

Well look no further, this thread will be your introduction into being born again as a slayer, through the means of framemaxxing with PEDS!

Natty Lifting is COPE meant to keep you away from the big leagues. The average "decent physique" takes years to attain, the same physique is 1 starter cycle of 16 weeks away. A good frame looksmatches you higher instantly at an insanely good ROI for you.

View attachment 4867011View attachment 4867012View attachment 4867015

You want these types of looksmatches, have the face, but still can't get it? Look below to find out why.


View attachment 4866987


Which one of the men above do you think would have a higher chance of slaying?


Studies proving that frame/physique/strength are insanely important for attractiveness.

Study/Author	Focus Area	Key Finding
Sell et al. (2017)	Physical Strength	Strength is the #1 predictor of bodily attractiveness.
Pazhoohi et al. (2019)	Shoulder-to-Hip Ratio	High SHR (broad shoulders) = higher attractiveness.
Dixson et al. (2010)	Cross-Cultural Body Shape	V-taper is preferred across Western and non-Western cultures.
Maisey et al. (1999)	Waist-to-Chest Ratio	WCR is the most important component of male attractiveness.
Provost et al. (2008)	Mating Strategy	Women seeking short-term mates show a higher preference for muscularity.
Hönekopp et al. (2007)	Physical Fitness	Women can accurately "smell" and "see" fitness and prefer it.
Tognetti et al. (2013)	Formidability	Muscularity signals the ability to protect and provide resources.

And yeah I have the sources too.

Here are the direct links to the research papers and academic summaries regarding male muscularity, frame, and attractiveness:

Spoiler: Sources

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5745404/
(Sell, Lukazsweski, & Townsley, 2017: The dominant role of physical strength in male attractiveness)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10480816/
(Frederick & Haselton, 2007: Men’s Bodily Attractiveness: Muscles as Fitness Indicators)
https://www.researchgate.net/public...eterminants_of_Sexual_Attractiveness_to_Women
(Dixson et al., 2003: Preference for mesomorphic/muscular somatotypes and V-taper)
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40750-023-00212-3
(Pazhoohi, Garza, & Kingstone, 2023: Sexual Selection and the Male Shoulder-to-Hip Ratio)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24958664/
(Coy & Green, 2014: Why low waist-to-chest ratio is attractive)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1634963/
(Fan et al., 2005: Visual perception of male body attractiveness and volume height index)
https://www.ehbonline.org/article/S1090-5138(09)00032-4/fulltext
(Lassek & Gaulin, 2009: Costs and benefits of fat-free muscle mass in men)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10359341/
(Maisey et al., 1999: Characteristics of male attractiveness: WHR vs. WCR)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10480609/
(Braun & Bryan, 2006: Female Preferences for Strong Men)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/225078516_Geometric_morphometrics_of_male_bodies_and_the_perception_of_physical_attractiveness
(Windhager et al., 2011: Broad shoulders as a signal of fitness)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4685550/
(Hönekopp et al., 2007: Physical fitness and attractiveness)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232497645_Waist-to-hip_ratio_and_attractiveness_of_the_male_body
(Henss, 2000: Attractiveness of the V-shaped male body)
https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/ecology-and-evolution/articles/10.3389/fevo.2022.860797/full
(Durkee et al., 2019: Physical strength as a cue for high status and attractiveness)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27488414/
(Dixson et al., 2016: Interaction of muscularity and facial hair in long-term and short-term attraction)
https://www.ehbonline.org/article/S1090-5138(10)00015-8/fulltext
(Puts, 2010: Sexual selection and the evolution of male formidability)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6328455/
(Little et al., 2011: Body composition effects on masculinity and attractiveness)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15705545/
(Fan et al., 2005: 3D scanning study on male body proportions)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/233821035_The_waist-to-chest_ratio_and_not_the_waist-to-hip_ratio_is_the_primary_determinant_of_male_body_attractiveness
(Swami & Tovée, 2005: WCR as the primary driver of male attractiveness)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/26257218_Male_attractiveness_Physical_strength_and_reproductive_success
(Goulding et al., 2010: Strength as a predictor of reproductive success)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23569234/
(Mautz et al., 2013: Interaction of height, shoulder-to-hip ratio, and attractiveness)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3130383/
(Price et al., 2012: Bodily attractiveness and physical fitness in men)

Still coping? Here's an entire thread on it: https://looksmax.org/threads/gymcel...body-the-same-way-we-do-its-100-legit.256601/

Not coping? Let's get into it then.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________



I've decided to make this thread on a whim and ended up making it for my 1000th post special. The current BOTB "First Steroid Cycle" (https://looksmax.org/threads/first-steroid-cycle.10771/) is a good thread with some good information, however it was posted in 2019. We have a very large amount of information and optimization that needs to be put forward and known by the general public, including some critical safety information that the original thread simply glosses over. This creates the illusion of a completely safe reality with steroids which is completely untrue, while steroids are possibly the most fearmongered substance in existence, and aren't even 1/5th of as dangerous as the media makes them out to be, their high profile on this site creates the inaccurate polarized opinion that they are "completely safe with no risks." This is not the case. All you have to to search up is "balding" and "steroid" together in the search bar to see the mass amount of users that are either worried or suffering the real risk of balding from AAS. This is a very real risk with all steroids, there is no such thing as a hair safe steroid maybe besides Anavar which you don't really run by itself ever. Balding is a terrible loss from steroids, if not recovered instantly, it's about a $4000 to $15000 loss since you have to get a hair transplant and that money could've been used for actual hardmaxxing, so it's a massive loss. This isn't even accounting for other, actual health risks such as liver and heart damage.


However this is not a fearmongering thread, nearly 100% of all risks from steroids can be mitigated and in some cases, vaporized with other supplements. A fair warning, this does mean you have to spend more. There is no such thing as a "cheap cycle." Users see that Test E costs $40 and immediately assume they can use their birthday money for a cycle. This is not the case at all. With no further ado, let's get straight into it.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Your first steroid cycle should consist of a 16 week bulk cycle running 500mg Testosterone Enanthate. I will quote the original cycle thread on why 500mg Test is superior to 250mg which is considered a "safe beginner cycle" by a lot of users.


So what will we need for the cycle?

We will be using 2 main compounds, unlike general consensus, it is a better idea to use Testosterone with HGH due to its significant synergetic benefits, and good risk to benefit ratio (HGH is given to children.)

1. 4x 10ml vials of Testosterone Enanthate dosed at 250mg/ml (Goes over 16 weeks, who cares it's always nice to have some extra. Test is cheap anyways. Only buy 3 if money is really that tight, although if you're struggling with an extra $15, perhaps you shouldn't be doing a cycle.)
2. HGH - Commonly sold in 20 vials x 36iu which is 720 iu HGH in total. This will be more than enough for you to run 4 - 8 iu everyday from the start to the end of your cycle.

But wait? Aren't you supposed to run a Test only cycle for your first cycle? Why run HGH? Well to answer this, we need to look into what Testosterone and HGH do for bodybuilding by themselves.

What is Testosterone Enanthate?

Testosterone enanthate is a long-acting, injectable androgen ester used medically to treat low testosterone (hypogonadism). In bodybuilding, it is used to significantly increase protein synthesis, accelerating muscle growth, strength, and recovery rates. It acts as a slow-release compound, typically administered every 5 to 7 days.

What is Human Growth Hormone (HGH)?

Human Growth Hormone (HGH), or somatotropin, is a natural hormone produced by the pituitary gland that regulates growth, metabolism, and cell repair. In bodybuilding, HGH primarily functions as a metabolic and cellular repair agent by stimulating the liver to release IGF-1, which promotes the growth of bone, cartilage, and new muscle tissue (hyperplasia). Beyond structural growth, it acts as a potent fat-burner by mobilizing stored fatty acids to be used for energy while improving overall recovery and systemic healing.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

So now that we have an idea on what these two are, we have to figure out, why on earth would you want to run these two together? Well it comes down to risk management and the actual results you get when you combine these two.

Reason 1: Synergy

I mentioned this before, but what does it mean? Well HGH and Testosterone are part of the 3 main pathways of anabolism, being Testosterone, HGH, and Insulin (although Insulin is a dangerous compound that could kill you and for those reasons, should be avoided until you are very well versed in AAS and have done multiple cycles, and if you're reading this to learn more, you aren't. Credits to Sadist for this information, you can find his thread on insulin here if you're interested.)

How do they synergize?

1. IGF-1

The primary way these two synergize is through the regulation of Insulin-like Growth Factor 1 (IGF-1).

HGH: When you inject HGH, the liver converts much of it into IGF-1, which is the primary driver of systemic tissue growth and cellular repair.
Testosterone: Testosterone also increases IGF-1 levels, but more importantly, it increases the sensitivity of the androgen receptors and enhances the local expression of IGF-1 within the muscle tissue itself.
Result: You get a massive spike in both circulating and localized IGF-1, leading to significantly more protein synthesis than either compound could achieve alone.

2. Complementary Nitrogen Retention​

Muscle growth is essentially a game of maintaining a positive nitrogen balance.

Testosterone is a causes Nitrogen Retention. It signals the muscle cells to hold onto more nitrogen, which is a fundamental building block of protein.
HGH focuses on Hyperplasia and Hypertrophy. While testosterone makes existing muscle fibers larger (hypertrophy), HGH is believed to potentially aid in the creation of new muscle cells (hyperplasia) and strengthening the collagen structures (tendons/ligaments) that support those muscles.

3. Nutrient Partitioning & Metabolic Efficiency​

This is where you actually feel the synergy. They work together to decide where your calories go.

Fat Loss: HGH is highly lipolytic, meaning it mobilizes body fat to be used as energy.
Muscle Sparing: Testosterone prevents the breakdown of muscle (anticatabolism) while you are in a fat-burning state.
Result: This duo allows for "recomposition," the ability to lose body fat while simultaneously gaining or maintaining significant lean mass, as the body uses the liberated fat stores to fuel the protein synthesis triggered by the testosterone.

4. Structural Support ​

High levels of testosterone can increase strength so rapidly that your tendons and ligaments can't keep up, leading to tears.

HGH increases collagen synthesis. It strengthens the connective tissues and bone density. (This also helps your skin.)
By adding HGH to a Test cycle, you are essentially allowing your body to handle the power provided by the testosterone.

Reason 2: ROI (Return On Investment)

1. Breaking the Myostatin Barrier​

On a Testosterone cycle, the body eventually fights back by increasing Myostatin, a protein that acts to stop muscle growth. HGH (via IGF-1) has been shown to help suppress Myostatin levels. By running both, you are effectively allowing for growth that would otherwise plateau.

2. Quality of Gains ​

A "Test-only" cycle often results in significant weight gain, but a large portion of that is water and glycogen.

Testosterone Only: High strength, but often accompanied by a "puffy" look and increased body fat if calories are high.
Testosterone + HGH: Because HGH increases lipolysis (fat mobilization), it forces the body to use fat for fuel. This means that for every 10 lbs gained on the scale, a much higher percentage is actual contractile muscle tissue rather than water or fat.

3. Accelerated Recovery​

In any cycle, the "cost" is the wear and tear on your joints and the time it takes to recover.

Testosterone Only: Increases strength faster than tendons can adapt, often leading to injuries that stall progress.
Testosterone + HGH: HGH significantly increases collagen synthesis. This heals micro-tears in connective tissue in real-time. The ROI here is longevity; you can train harder, more frequently, and for more weeks at a time without your body breaking down.

4. Maximizing the Risk-to-Reward Ratio​

Using performance-enhancing drugs is a gamble with your long-term health; you are putting strain on your cardiovascular system, kidneys, and endocrine health regardless of which compounds you choose.

Underwhelming Results: Running a Testosterone cycle alone still carries the same risks, but you are limited by the body’s natural plateaus and the sloppy gains of water and fat. Adding HGH to the cycle allows you to achieve a level of cellular change (hyperplasia) and body composition refinement that Testosterone simply cannot provide on its own.

If you are already willing to pay the biological tax of a cycle, spending the extra money on HGH ensures you aren't just getting a temporary, bloated look, but are instead squeezing every possible ounce of permanent tissue growth and recovery out of the risk you're taking.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Now that we have gotten the "why" out of the way, let's get into the "how."

What you will need for injections:

Testosterone:
- 30 syringes with needles gauge 25 or 27. Must be at least 1 cc. Needles should be 1" long for glute injection and 0.5" for quads. If you are fat then add an extra half inch to each.
- Alcohol wipes.

HGH:
- Insulin Syringes: Choose 29–31 gauge, 0.5 ml or 1 ml syringes with short 8mm needles.
- Alcohol Swabs: For disinfecting the vial tops and your skin.
- Bacteriostatic Water (BAC Water): To mix your HGH.
- Sharps Container: For safe disposal of used needles.

How to inject Testosterone (via .net)

Wipe the lid of the vial with an alcohol wipe. Pull back the syringe to the amount you intend to draw up (eg. 1 mL) and stick the needle in the vial. Shoot that much air into the vial and draw up the amount you want. You will get air as well. Just keep shooting the air back into the vial and drawing back until you actually have the right amount of roids.

Wipe a spot on your ass with alcohol. You can inject into the muscle (IM or intramuscular) or into the fat (SC or subcutaneous). Most people do IM. If you're doing that, you need to inject into safe spots to not hit a nerve. In the ass, that's the upper outer aspect:
View attachment 4866517

How to inject HGH

Gently pinch a small fold of skin at your chosen injection site (preferably the abdomen.) Hold the syringe at a 45-degree angle and stick the needle into the skin. Push the plunger down slowly to inject the HGH. Once you're done, pull the needle out and use a cotton swab to apply light pressure to the spot if you need to.
View attachment 4866564

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Now it is time to go through all the things you will need to nuke all the side effects from steroids. Everything I mention below is a must buy or else you will botch your cycle, your health, and yourself.

Side Effect	Cause	What Supplement To Use
Gyno / Bloat	Estrogen	Aromatase Inhibitors
Hair Loss	DHT	3mg Dutasteride & RU58841 5%
Acne	DHT	Accutane 10-40mg (Isotretinoin)
Shrunken Balls	Shut down of HPTA	HCG (100 - 250 IU every other day)
Testosterone Suppression	Exogenous Testosterone	Nolvadex 20mg daily (2 weeks after your last injection

I will go over each in more detail below:

1. Aromatase Inhibitors

Why do you need an aromatase inhibitor (AI)?

Your body as a man needs estrogen to function. Your body makes estrogen by converting testosterone via the aromatase enzyme. When you start taking excess testosterone, your body starts creating more estrogen via aromatizing to reach homeostasis. Excess estrogen can result in gyno, extreme bloat, being highly emotional and other unpleasant side effects. For this reason, we take an aromatase inhibitor to keep estrogen levels lower. However, it is important not to take to much AI because low estrogen also has bad side effects and inhibits your ability to build muscle.

Arimidex and Aromasin are the two best choices for aromatase inhibitors for most people. 1mg of Arimidex has similar anti-estrogen effects as 25mg of Aromasin. However some people take Letrozole as well so I will also include that below.

Property	Anastrozole (Arimidex)	Letrozole (Femara)	Exemestane (Aromasin)
Type	Non-steroidal, reversible	Non-steroidal, reversible	Steroidal, irreversible
Estrogen Suppression	~50–70% (dose dependent)	~80–98% (very potent)	~65–85% (irreversible)
Half-Life	~48 hrs	~40–60 hrs	~24–27 hrs
Rebound Risk	Medium if stopped fast	High (sharp increase)	Low (enzyme destroyed)
Titration Precision	High (easy microdose)	Moderate to difficult	Low (fixed dose tabs)
Bone Impact	Mild (long-term)	moderate to severe	moderate
Lipid impact	Mild, but could affect HDL	Moderate to severe	moderate
Onset of Suppression	~24 hours	Within hours	~24 hours (stronger than Anastrozole)
Peak Suppression	~2–4 days	~2–3 days	~2–3 days

PRICES

Source	Anastrozole Price (1mg)	Letrozole Price (2.5mg)	Exemestane Price (25mg)
Pharma (Brand)	$5–$10	$8–$15	$10–$20
Generic (Indian)	$0.50–$1.50	$1–$3	$1–$4
UGL (Chinese)	$0.20–$0.50	$0.30–$1	$0.30–$1

SIDE EFFECTS

Side Effect	Anastrozole (Arimidex)	Letrozole (Femera)	Exemestane (Aromasin)
Hot flashes	Common	Common	Common
Joint pain	Moderate	Moderate to severe	Mild to moderate
Fatigue	Mild to moderate	Moderate	Mild to moderate
Bone density loss	Mild (long-term use)	More severe if misused	Moderate (monitor needed)
Nausea	Mild	Mild to moderate	Mild
Mood changes	Possible	Possible	Possible
Headache	Occasionally	Occasionally	Occasionally
Increased cholesterol	Mild	Moderate to severe	Moderate
Muscle pain	Mild	Moderate	Mild

^ Cannot find the thread but I've had this information saved from a heightmaxxing thread (cope.)

I personally recommend Aromasin, although it is more expensive and harsher on hair. We will go over hair next.

2. Hair Loss

RU58841:

RU58841 acts as a topical androgen receptor antagonist that competes directly with dihydrotestosterone (DHT) for binding sites on hair follicles. By occupying these receptors, it prevents DHT from triggering the follicle miniaturization process without significantly lowering systemic hormone levels in the rest of the body. The 5% variant of this is preferred.

Dutasteride:

Dutasteride is a potent 5-alpha reductase inhibitor that works by blocking both Type I and Type II enzymes, which are responsible for converting testosterone into dihydrotestosterone (DHT). By reducing systemic and scalp DHT levels by up to 90% or more, it effectively halts the miniaturization of hair follicles and creates an environment where regrowth is possible. Take 2.5 - 3mg minimum.

View attachment 4866791
(Pic courtesy of SlayerJonas)

3. Acne

Accutane (Isotretinoin):

Accutane (Isotretinoin) addresses acne at the source by permanently shrinking the sebaceous glands and drastically reducing the amount of oil (sebum) they produce. This prevents pores from clogging and creates an inhospitable environment for acne-causing bacteria, often leading to long-term or permanent remission of severe breakouts.


4. Shrunken Balls

HCG:

Instead of waiting until the end to fix atrophy, you should run HCG throughout your entire cycle to prevent your testicles from shrinking in the first place. Use a dose of 250iu every other day to provide a constant signal to the Leydig cells, keeping them functional and full-sized so that your eventual recovery is much faster and more reliable.

Now there is alot of misinformation going around when it comes to this stuff. It artificially gets your balls to start making testosterone, it does not restart your whole complex natural system of different glands and hormones communicating with each other to make your balls produce testosterone (it is known as the HTPA or hypothalamic–pituitary–gonadal axis). That is why it should not be used during PCT. People who use this as their PCT feel great while they are using it but as soon as they come off will have low T because they never restarted HTPA. (via jefferson)

5. Testosterone Suppression

PCT - Nolvadex:

On Testosterone Enanthate, you want to wait 2 weeks after your last injection to let the drug clear before you start your PCT. For a 12-15 week cycle, the standard is a 6 week PCT taking 20mg of Nolvadex daily.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Debunking Common Natty Copes:

1. "They still have to work just as hard."​

Cope: "Steroids only work if you train like a beast; otherwise, they do nothing."
Reality: Research (notably the 1996 Bhasin study) showed that men taking 600mg of Test-E who did not work out gained more lean muscle mass than natural men who did work out. While gear makes hard work more effective, it also makes laziness more productive than natural effort.

2. "It's all water weight."​

Cope: "They just look big because they’re bloated; it’ll all disappear once they go off."
Reality: While certain compounds (like Dbol) cause water retention, steroids primarily drive myofibrillar hypertrophy (actual muscle fiber growth). Furthermore, HGH and certain steroids can cause hyperplasia, the splitting of muscle cells, creating permanent structural changes that a natural lifter can never achieve.

3. "The 'Natty Limit' is higher than people think."​

Cope: If I just train for 20 years and eat perfectly, I can look like [insert fake-natty influencer].
Reality: The Fat-Free Mass Index (FFMI) is a reliable ceiling. Most humans naturally top out at an FFMI of around 25. Influencers who are 220lbs and 8% body fat are statistically impossible to achieve without exogenous hormones.

4. "I’d rather have 'real' muscle."​

Cope: "Natural muscle is denser and stays better than "fake" steroid muscle."
Reality: Muscle tissue is muscle tissue. The contractile proteins (actin and myosin) are the same. While an enhanced lifter will lose the "super-physiological" fullness when they come off, they will still retain a higher baseline of muscle than they ever could have reached naturally due to increased myonuclei count.

5. "Steroids will give you 'Roid Rage' and turn you into a monster."​

Cope: "Every gear user is a ticking time bomb of aggression."
Reality: While certain compounds (like Trenbolone) can increase irritability, "Roid Rage" is largely a myth for those with stable mental health. Most users on a sensible Test/HGH cycle report feeling better, more confident, and more stable due to optimized hormone levels.

6. "They have no discipline/took the easy way out."​

Cope: "Going to the gym naturally is "harder" and shows more character."
Reality: Enhanced lifters often train harder and longer because their recovery allows for it. Being "natural" is often a choice of health and longevity, but it doesn't automatically grant a "discipline" trophy. Taking 500mg of Test doesn't make the 405lb squat any lighter.

7. "Their organs are going to explode tomorrow."​

Cope: "Anyone on gear is going to die by age 40."
Reality: While the risks are real (left ventricular hypertrophy, kidney strain), many users mitigate these through frequent blood work, ancillary drugs (like HCG and AI), and cruising on TRT doses rather than constant blasting. It’s a calculated risk, not a guaranteed death sentence.

8. "It’s all about the 'Lighting and Angles'."​

Cope: "That guy only looks big because of the gym mirrors and a pump."
Reality: No amount of lighting can fake the 3D "cannonball" delts and "traps-to-ears" look that comes from a high density of androgen receptors in the upper body, features that are the "dead giveaway" of an enhanced physique.

9. "I'll catch up to them eventually."​

Cope: "If I stay natty for 10 years, I'll be bigger than the guy who did a 16-week cycle."
Reality: A single, well-executed cycle can put more lean mass on a frame than 3 - 5 years of perfect natural lifting. The "gap" doesn't close, it widens every year the other person stays enhanced.

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TL;DR:
Steroid downsides: Preventable minor stuff.
The Upsides:
View attachment 4867007View attachment 4867038

Ascend TODAY.

Your perfect life awaits you, your hot wife, your high paying job, the admiration from everyone you meet no matter what, your future kid's respect for you. All of this may be few cycles away, will you dedicate your life this one time? Or will you let the opportunity pass and some other man do it and live your dream life while you rot away?

The world is yours.

Tagging High Iq Users: @SlayerJonas @Chad @Zagro @Sadist @Sayori how'd I do? Thread was a little rushed due to Jonas' current pinned thread being posted right as I was working on mine although.

This was my 1000th post special, hope you enjoyed!

Other than like "hi tech pharmaceuticals" where can you find safe market (primobolan, anavar and testosterone)

 

[shortcell29]

mirin brah, but how do i run this living with my whole family

 

[e65man]

amazing thread bhai, what r the dosages and when should i dose?

 

[Zagro]

Getting contributor with GPT threads is astonishing

 

[georgedeltroid]

where do you get test that cheap im in aus and cheapest verified source ive found is 120AUD a vial, is it an Australia thing or should i be buying from China, although Aus customs are quite strict

 

[dnr.net]

Beautiful thread, will running this cycle only benefit my body/frame, or will this also help with the face if supplementing side effects?

both, i mean its known if you have high test your sexual dimorphism gets increased.

 

[dnr.net]

mirin high effort thread

 

[6’4 mogger]

does anyone know a trusted anavar seller

 

[Yesimmirin]

Mirin, will come back to this

 

[oxytocincel]

mirin high quality

 

[Secretmogger]

Are you a framelet?

View attachment 4865740

Do you want women swarming you like this wherever you go?
View attachment 4865708View attachment 4865712


Do you want to framemog the ASU Frat Leader?

View attachment 4865716

Do you want to be admired just for existing by your friends, peers, girls, and even strangers?

Well look no further, this thread will be your introduction into being born again as a slayer, through the means of framemaxxing with PEDS!

Natty Lifting is COPE meant to keep you away from the big leagues. The average "decent physique" takes years to attain, the same physique is 1 starter cycle of 16 weeks away. A good frame looksmatches you higher instantly at an insanely good ROI for you.

View attachment 4867011View attachment 4867012View attachment 4867015

You want these types of looksmatches, have the face, but still can't get it? Look below to find out why.


View attachment 4866987


Which one of the men above do you think would have a higher chance of slaying?


Studies proving that frame/physique/strength are insanely important for attractiveness.

Study/Author	Focus Area	Key Finding
Sell et al. (2017)	Physical Strength	Strength is the #1 predictor of bodily attractiveness.
Pazhoohi et al. (2019)	Shoulder-to-Hip Ratio	High SHR (broad shoulders) = higher attractiveness.
Dixson et al. (2010)	Cross-Cultural Body Shape	V-taper is preferred across Western and non-Western cultures.
Maisey et al. (1999)	Waist-to-Chest Ratio	WCR is the most important component of male attractiveness.
Provost et al. (2008)	Mating Strategy	Women seeking short-term mates show a higher preference for muscularity.
Hönekopp et al. (2007)	Physical Fitness	Women can accurately "smell" and "see" fitness and prefer it.
Tognetti et al. (2013)	Formidability	Muscularity signals the ability to protect and provide resources.

And yeah I have the sources too.

Here are the direct links to the research papers and academic summaries regarding male muscularity, frame, and attractiveness:

Spoiler: Sources

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5745404/
(Sell, Lukazsweski, & Townsley, 2017: The dominant role of physical strength in male attractiveness)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10480816/
(Frederick & Haselton, 2007: Men’s Bodily Attractiveness: Muscles as Fitness Indicators)
https://www.researchgate.net/public...eterminants_of_Sexual_Attractiveness_to_Women
(Dixson et al., 2003: Preference for mesomorphic/muscular somatotypes and V-taper)
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40750-023-00212-3
(Pazhoohi, Garza, & Kingstone, 2023: Sexual Selection and the Male Shoulder-to-Hip Ratio)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24958664/
(Coy & Green, 2014: Why low waist-to-chest ratio is attractive)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1634963/
(Fan et al., 2005: Visual perception of male body attractiveness and volume height index)
https://www.ehbonline.org/article/S1090-5138(09)00032-4/fulltext
(Lassek & Gaulin, 2009: Costs and benefits of fat-free muscle mass in men)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10359341/
(Maisey et al., 1999: Characteristics of male attractiveness: WHR vs. WCR)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10480609/
(Braun & Bryan, 2006: Female Preferences for Strong Men)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/225078516_Geometric_morphometrics_of_male_bodies_and_the_perception_of_physical_attractiveness
(Windhager et al., 2011: Broad shoulders as a signal of fitness)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4685550/
(Hönekopp et al., 2007: Physical fitness and attractiveness)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232497645_Waist-to-hip_ratio_and_attractiveness_of_the_male_body
(Henss, 2000: Attractiveness of the V-shaped male body)
https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/ecology-and-evolution/articles/10.3389/fevo.2022.860797/full
(Durkee et al., 2019: Physical strength as a cue for high status and attractiveness)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27488414/
(Dixson et al., 2016: Interaction of muscularity and facial hair in long-term and short-term attraction)
https://www.ehbonline.org/article/S1090-5138(10)00015-8/fulltext
(Puts, 2010: Sexual selection and the evolution of male formidability)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6328455/
(Little et al., 2011: Body composition effects on masculinity and attractiveness)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15705545/
(Fan et al., 2005: 3D scanning study on male body proportions)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/233821035_The_waist-to-chest_ratio_and_not_the_waist-to-hip_ratio_is_the_primary_determinant_of_male_body_attractiveness
(Swami & Tovée, 2005: WCR as the primary driver of male attractiveness)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/26257218_Male_attractiveness_Physical_strength_and_reproductive_success
(Goulding et al., 2010: Strength as a predictor of reproductive success)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23569234/
(Mautz et al., 2013: Interaction of height, shoulder-to-hip ratio, and attractiveness)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3130383/
(Price et al., 2012: Bodily attractiveness and physical fitness in men)

Still coping? Here's an entire thread on it: https://looksmax.org/threads/gymcel...body-the-same-way-we-do-its-100-legit.256601/

Not coping? Let's get into it then.
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I've decided to make this thread on a whim and ended up making it for my 1000th post special. The current BOTB "First Steroid Cycle" (https://looksmax.org/threads/first-steroid-cycle.10771/) is a good thread with some good information, however it was posted in 2019. We have a very large amount of information and optimization that needs to be put forward and known by the general public, including some critical safety information that the original thread simply glosses over. This creates the illusion of a completely safe reality with steroids which is completely untrue, while steroids are possibly the most fearmongered substance in existence, and aren't even 1/5th of as dangerous as the media makes them out to be, their high profile on this site creates the inaccurate polarized opinion that they are "completely safe with no risks." This is not the case. All you have to to search up is "balding" and "steroid" together in the search bar to see the mass amount of users that are either worried or suffering the real risk of balding from AAS. This is a very real risk with all steroids, there is no such thing as a hair safe steroid maybe besides Anavar which you don't really run by itself ever. Balding is a terrible loss from steroids, if not recovered instantly, it's about a $4000 to $15000 loss since you have to get a hair transplant and that money could've been used for actual hardmaxxing, so it's a massive loss. This isn't even accounting for other, actual health risks such as liver and heart damage.


However this is not a fearmongering thread, nearly 100% of all risks from steroids can be mitigated and in some cases, vaporized with other supplements. A fair warning, this does mean you have to spend more. There is no such thing as a "cheap cycle." Users see that Test E costs $40 and immediately assume they can use their birthday money for a cycle. This is not the case at all. With no further ado, let's get straight into it.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Your first steroid cycle should consist of a 16 week bulk cycle running 500mg Testosterone Enanthate. I will quote the original cycle thread on why 500mg Test is superior to 250mg which is considered a "safe beginner cycle" by a lot of users.


So what will we need for the cycle?

We will be using 2 main compounds, unlike general consensus, it is a better idea to use Testosterone with HGH due to its significant synergetic benefits, and good risk to benefit ratio (HGH is given to children.)

1. 4x 10ml vials of Testosterone Enanthate dosed at 250mg/ml (Goes over 16 weeks, who cares it's always nice to have some extra. Test is cheap anyways. Only buy 3 if money is really that tight, although if you're struggling with an extra $15, perhaps you shouldn't be doing a cycle.)
2. HGH - Commonly sold in 20 vials x 36iu which is 720 iu HGH in total. This will be more than enough for you to run 4 - 8 iu everyday from the start to the end of your cycle.

But wait? Aren't you supposed to run a Test only cycle for your first cycle? Why run HGH? Well to answer this, we need to look into what Testosterone and HGH do for bodybuilding by themselves.

What is Testosterone Enanthate?

Testosterone enanthate is a long-acting, injectable androgen ester used medically to treat low testosterone (hypogonadism). In bodybuilding, it is used to significantly increase protein synthesis, accelerating muscle growth, strength, and recovery rates. It acts as a slow-release compound, typically administered every 5 to 7 days.

What is Human Growth Hormone (HGH)?

Human Growth Hormone (HGH), or somatotropin, is a natural hormone produced by the pituitary gland that regulates growth, metabolism, and cell repair. In bodybuilding, HGH primarily functions as a metabolic and cellular repair agent by stimulating the liver to release IGF-1, which promotes the growth of bone, cartilage, and new muscle tissue (hyperplasia). Beyond structural growth, it acts as a potent fat-burner by mobilizing stored fatty acids to be used for energy while improving overall recovery and systemic healing.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

So now that we have an idea on what these two are, we have to figure out, why on earth would you want to run these two together? Well it comes down to risk management and the actual results you get when you combine these two.

Reason 1: Synergy

I mentioned this before, but what does it mean? Well HGH and Testosterone are part of the 3 main pathways of anabolism, being Testosterone, HGH, and Insulin (although Insulin is a dangerous compound that could kill you and for those reasons, should be avoided until you are very well versed in AAS and have done multiple cycles, and if you're reading this to learn more, you aren't. Credits to Sadist for this information, you can find his thread on insulin here if you're interested.)

How do they synergize?

1. IGF-1

The primary way these two synergize is through the regulation of Insulin-like Growth Factor 1 (IGF-1).

HGH: When you inject HGH, the liver converts much of it into IGF-1, which is the primary driver of systemic tissue growth and cellular repair.
Testosterone: Testosterone also increases IGF-1 levels, but more importantly, it increases the sensitivity of the androgen receptors and enhances the local expression of IGF-1 within the muscle tissue itself.
Result: You get a massive spike in both circulating and localized IGF-1, leading to significantly more protein synthesis than either compound could achieve alone.

2. Complementary Nitrogen Retention​

Muscle growth is essentially a game of maintaining a positive nitrogen balance.

Testosterone is a causes Nitrogen Retention. It signals the muscle cells to hold onto more nitrogen, which is a fundamental building block of protein.
HGH focuses on Hyperplasia and Hypertrophy. While testosterone makes existing muscle fibers larger (hypertrophy), HGH is believed to potentially aid in the creation of new muscle cells (hyperplasia) and strengthening the collagen structures (tendons/ligaments) that support those muscles.

3. Nutrient Partitioning & Metabolic Efficiency​

This is where you actually feel the synergy. They work together to decide where your calories go.

Fat Loss: HGH is highly lipolytic, meaning it mobilizes body fat to be used as energy.
Muscle Sparing: Testosterone prevents the breakdown of muscle (anticatabolism) while you are in a fat-burning state.
Result: This duo allows for "recomposition," the ability to lose body fat while simultaneously gaining or maintaining significant lean mass, as the body uses the liberated fat stores to fuel the protein synthesis triggered by the testosterone.

4. Structural Support ​

High levels of testosterone can increase strength so rapidly that your tendons and ligaments can't keep up, leading to tears.

HGH increases collagen synthesis. It strengthens the connective tissues and bone density. (This also helps your skin.)
By adding HGH to a Test cycle, you are essentially allowing your body to handle the power provided by the testosterone.

Reason 2: ROI (Return On Investment)

1. Breaking the Myostatin Barrier​

On a Testosterone cycle, the body eventually fights back by increasing Myostatin, a protein that acts to stop muscle growth. HGH (via IGF-1) has been shown to help suppress Myostatin levels. By running both, you are effectively allowing for growth that would otherwise plateau.

2. Quality of Gains ​

A "Test-only" cycle often results in significant weight gain, but a large portion of that is water and glycogen.

Testosterone Only: High strength, but often accompanied by a "puffy" look and increased body fat if calories are high.
Testosterone + HGH: Because HGH increases lipolysis (fat mobilization), it forces the body to use fat for fuel. This means that for every 10 lbs gained on the scale, a much higher percentage is actual contractile muscle tissue rather than water or fat.

3. Accelerated Recovery​

In any cycle, the "cost" is the wear and tear on your joints and the time it takes to recover.

Testosterone Only: Increases strength faster than tendons can adapt, often leading to injuries that stall progress.
Testosterone + HGH: HGH significantly increases collagen synthesis. This heals micro-tears in connective tissue in real-time. The ROI here is longevity; you can train harder, more frequently, and for more weeks at a time without your body breaking down.

4. Maximizing the Risk-to-Reward Ratio​

Using performance-enhancing drugs is a gamble with your long-term health; you are putting strain on your cardiovascular system, kidneys, and endocrine health regardless of which compounds you choose.

Underwhelming Results: Running a Testosterone cycle alone still carries the same risks, but you are limited by the body’s natural plateaus and the sloppy gains of water and fat. Adding HGH to the cycle allows you to achieve a level of cellular change (hyperplasia) and body composition refinement that Testosterone simply cannot provide on its own.

If you are already willing to pay the biological tax of a cycle, spending the extra money on HGH ensures you aren't just getting a temporary, bloated look, but are instead squeezing every possible ounce of permanent tissue growth and recovery out of the risk you're taking.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Now that we have gotten the "why" out of the way, let's get into the "how."

What you will need for injections:

Testosterone:
- 30 syringes with needles gauge 25 or 27. Must be at least 1 cc. Needles should be 1" long for glute injection and 0.5" for quads. If you are fat then add an extra half inch to each.
- Alcohol wipes.

HGH:
- Insulin Syringes: Choose 29–31 gauge, 0.5 ml or 1 ml syringes with short 8mm needles.
- Alcohol Swabs: For disinfecting the vial tops and your skin.
- Bacteriostatic Water (BAC Water): To mix your HGH.
- Sharps Container: For safe disposal of used needles.

How to inject Testosterone (via .net)

Wipe the lid of the vial with an alcohol wipe. Pull back the syringe to the amount you intend to draw up (eg. 1 mL) and stick the needle in the vial. Shoot that much air into the vial and draw up the amount you want. You will get air as well. Just keep shooting the air back into the vial and drawing back until you actually have the right amount of roids.

Wipe a spot on your ass with alcohol. You can inject into the muscle (IM or intramuscular) or into the fat (SC or subcutaneous). Most people do IM. If you're doing that, you need to inject into safe spots to not hit a nerve. In the ass, that's the upper outer aspect:
View attachment 4866517

How to inject HGH

Gently pinch a small fold of skin at your chosen injection site (preferably the abdomen.) Hold the syringe at a 45-degree angle and stick the needle into the skin. Push the plunger down slowly to inject the HGH. Once you're done, pull the needle out and use a cotton swab to apply light pressure to the spot if you need to.
View attachment 4866564

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Now it is time to go through all the things you will need to nuke all the side effects from steroids. Everything I mention below is a must buy or else you will botch your cycle, your health, and yourself.

Side Effect	Cause	What Supplement To Use
Gyno / Bloat	Estrogen	Aromatase Inhibitors
Hair Loss	DHT	3mg Dutasteride & RU58841 5%
Acne	DHT	Accutane 10-40mg (Isotretinoin)
Shrunken Balls	Shut down of HPTA	HCG (100 - 250 IU every other day)
Testosterone Suppression	Exogenous Testosterone	Nolvadex 20mg daily (2 weeks after your last injection

I will go over each in more detail below:

1. Aromatase Inhibitors

Why do you need an aromatase inhibitor (AI)?

Your body as a man needs estrogen to function. Your body makes estrogen by converting testosterone via the aromatase enzyme. When you start taking excess testosterone, your body starts creating more estrogen via aromatizing to reach homeostasis. Excess estrogen can result in gyno, extreme bloat, being highly emotional and other unpleasant side effects. For this reason, we take an aromatase inhibitor to keep estrogen levels lower. However, it is important not to take to much AI because low estrogen also has bad side effects and inhibits your ability to build muscle.

Arimidex and Aromasin are the two best choices for aromatase inhibitors for most people. 1mg of Arimidex has similar anti-estrogen effects as 25mg of Aromasin. However some people take Letrozole as well so I will also include that below.

Property	Anastrozole (Arimidex)	Letrozole (Femara)	Exemestane (Aromasin)
Type	Non-steroidal, reversible	Non-steroidal, reversible	Steroidal, irreversible
Estrogen Suppression	~50–70% (dose dependent)	~80–98% (very potent)	~65–85% (irreversible)
Half-Life	~48 hrs	~40–60 hrs	~24–27 hrs
Rebound Risk	Medium if stopped fast	High (sharp increase)	Low (enzyme destroyed)
Titration Precision	High (easy microdose)	Moderate to difficult	Low (fixed dose tabs)
Bone Impact	Mild (long-term)	moderate to severe	moderate
Lipid impact	Mild, but could affect HDL	Moderate to severe	moderate
Onset of Suppression	~24 hours	Within hours	~24 hours (stronger than Anastrozole)
Peak Suppression	~2–4 days	~2–3 days	~2–3 days

PRICES

Source	Anastrozole Price (1mg)	Letrozole Price (2.5mg)	Exemestane Price (25mg)
Pharma (Brand)	$5–$10	$8–$15	$10–$20
Generic (Indian)	$0.50–$1.50	$1–$3	$1–$4
UGL (Chinese)	$0.20–$0.50	$0.30–$1	$0.30–$1

SIDE EFFECTS

Side Effect	Anastrozole (Arimidex)	Letrozole (Femera)	Exemestane (Aromasin)
Hot flashes	Common	Common	Common
Joint pain	Moderate	Moderate to severe	Mild to moderate
Fatigue	Mild to moderate	Moderate	Mild to moderate
Bone density loss	Mild (long-term use)	More severe if misused	Moderate (monitor needed)
Nausea	Mild	Mild to moderate	Mild
Mood changes	Possible	Possible	Possible
Headache	Occasionally	Occasionally	Occasionally
Increased cholesterol	Mild	Moderate to severe	Moderate
Muscle pain	Mild	Moderate	Mild

^ Cannot find the thread but I've had this information saved from a heightmaxxing thread (cope.)

I personally recommend Aromasin, although it is more expensive and harsher on hair. We will go over hair next.

2. Hair Loss

RU58841:

RU58841 acts as a topical androgen receptor antagonist that competes directly with dihydrotestosterone (DHT) for binding sites on hair follicles. By occupying these receptors, it prevents DHT from triggering the follicle miniaturization process without significantly lowering systemic hormone levels in the rest of the body. The 5% variant of this is preferred.

Dutasteride:

Dutasteride is a potent 5-alpha reductase inhibitor that works by blocking both Type I and Type II enzymes, which are responsible for converting testosterone into dihydrotestosterone (DHT). By reducing systemic and scalp DHT levels by up to 90% or more, it effectively halts the miniaturization of hair follicles and creates an environment where regrowth is possible. Take 2.5 - 3mg minimum.

View attachment 4866791
(Pic courtesy of SlayerJonas)

3. Acne

Accutane (Isotretinoin):

Accutane (Isotretinoin) addresses acne at the source by permanently shrinking the sebaceous glands and drastically reducing the amount of oil (sebum) they produce. This prevents pores from clogging and creates an inhospitable environment for acne-causing bacteria, often leading to long-term or permanent remission of severe breakouts.


4. Shrunken Balls

HCG:

Instead of waiting until the end to fix atrophy, you should run HCG throughout your entire cycle to prevent your testicles from shrinking in the first place. Use a dose of 250iu every other day to provide a constant signal to the Leydig cells, keeping them functional and full-sized so that your eventual recovery is much faster and more reliable.

Now there is alot of misinformation going around when it comes to this stuff. It artificially gets your balls to start making testosterone, it does not restart your whole complex natural system of different glands and hormones communicating with each other to make your balls produce testosterone (it is known as the HTPA or hypothalamic–pituitary–gonadal axis). That is why it should not be used during PCT. People who use this as their PCT feel great while they are using it but as soon as they come off will have low T because they never restarted HTPA. (via jefferson)

5. Testosterone Suppression

PCT - Nolvadex:

On Testosterone Enanthate, you want to wait 2 weeks after your last injection to let the drug clear before you start your PCT. For a 12-15 week cycle, the standard is a 6 week PCT taking 20mg of Nolvadex daily.

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Debunking Common Natty Copes:

1. "They still have to work just as hard."​

Cope: "Steroids only work if you train like a beast; otherwise, they do nothing."
Reality: Research (notably the 1996 Bhasin study) showed that men taking 600mg of Test-E who did not work out gained more lean muscle mass than natural men who did work out. While gear makes hard work more effective, it also makes laziness more productive than natural effort.

2. "It's all water weight."​

Cope: "They just look big because they’re bloated; it’ll all disappear once they go off."
Reality: While certain compounds (like Dbol) cause water retention, steroids primarily drive myofibrillar hypertrophy (actual muscle fiber growth). Furthermore, HGH and certain steroids can cause hyperplasia, the splitting of muscle cells, creating permanent structural changes that a natural lifter can never achieve.

3. "The 'Natty Limit' is higher than people think."​

Cope: If I just train for 20 years and eat perfectly, I can look like [insert fake-natty influencer].
Reality: The Fat-Free Mass Index (FFMI) is a reliable ceiling. Most humans naturally top out at an FFMI of around 25. Influencers who are 220lbs and 8% body fat are statistically impossible to achieve without exogenous hormones.

4. "I’d rather have 'real' muscle."​

Cope: "Natural muscle is denser and stays better than "fake" steroid muscle."
Reality: Muscle tissue is muscle tissue. The contractile proteins (actin and myosin) are the same. While an enhanced lifter will lose the "super-physiological" fullness when they come off, they will still retain a higher baseline of muscle than they ever could have reached naturally due to increased myonuclei count.

5. "Steroids will give you 'Roid Rage' and turn you into a monster."​

Cope: "Every gear user is a ticking time bomb of aggression."
Reality: While certain compounds (like Trenbolone) can increase irritability, "Roid Rage" is largely a myth for those with stable mental health. Most users on a sensible Test/HGH cycle report feeling better, more confident, and more stable due to optimized hormone levels.

6. "They have no discipline/took the easy way out."​

Cope: "Going to the gym naturally is "harder" and shows more character."
Reality: Enhanced lifters often train harder and longer because their recovery allows for it. Being "natural" is often a choice of health and longevity, but it doesn't automatically grant a "discipline" trophy. Taking 500mg of Test doesn't make the 405lb squat any lighter.

7. "Their organs are going to explode tomorrow."​

Cope: "Anyone on gear is going to die by age 40."
Reality: While the risks are real (left ventricular hypertrophy, kidney strain), many users mitigate these through frequent blood work, ancillary drugs (like HCG and AI), and cruising on TRT doses rather than constant blasting. It’s a calculated risk, not a guaranteed death sentence.

8. "It’s all about the 'Lighting and Angles'."​

Cope: "That guy only looks big because of the gym mirrors and a pump."
Reality: No amount of lighting can fake the 3D "cannonball" delts and "traps-to-ears" look that comes from a high density of androgen receptors in the upper body, features that are the "dead giveaway" of an enhanced physique.

9. "I'll catch up to them eventually."​

Cope: "If I stay natty for 10 years, I'll be bigger than the guy who did a 16-week cycle."
Reality: A single, well-executed cycle can put more lean mass on a frame than 3 - 5 years of perfect natural lifting. The "gap" doesn't close, it widens every year the other person stays enhanced.

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TL;DR:
Steroid downsides: Preventable minor stuff.
The Upsides:
View attachment 4867007View attachment 4867038

Ascend TODAY.

Your perfect life awaits you, your hot wife, your high paying job, the admiration from everyone you meet no matter what, your future kid's respect for you. All of this may be few cycles away, will you dedicate your life this one time? Or will you let the opportunity pass and some other man do it and live your dream life while you rot away?

The world is yours.

Tagging High Iq Users: @SlayerJonas @Chad @Zagro @Sadist @Sayori how'd I do? Thread was a little rushed due to Jonas' current pinned thread being posted right as I was working on mine although.

This was my 1000th post special, hope you enjoyed!

If i only run a test cycle, does it still come with all the sides you said?

 

[mtorg]

anyone think its a good idea to skip the test and just run GH with Aromatase inhibitors i dont want to fuck up my hormones for the rest of my life as i am still pretty young

 

[Rashm0n]

Are you a framelet?

View attachment 4865740

Do you want women swarming you like this wherever you go?
View attachment 4865708View attachment 4865712


Do you want to framemog the ASU Frat Leader?

View attachment 4865716

Do you want to be admired just for existing by your friends, peers, girls, and even strangers?

Well look no further, this thread will be your introduction into being born again as a slayer, through the means of framemaxxing with PEDS!

Natty Lifting is COPE meant to keep you away from the big leagues. The average "decent physique" takes years to attain, the same physique is 1 starter cycle of 16 weeks away. A good frame looksmatches you higher instantly at an insanely good ROI for you.

View attachment 4867011View attachment 4867012View attachment 4867015

You want these types of looksmatches, have the face, but still can't get it? Look below to find out why.


View attachment 4866987


Which one of the men above do you think would have a higher chance of slaying?


Studies proving that frame/physique/strength are insanely important for attractiveness.

Study/Author	Focus Area	Key Finding
Sell et al. (2017)	Physical Strength	Strength is the #1 predictor of bodily attractiveness.
Pazhoohi et al. (2019)	Shoulder-to-Hip Ratio	High SHR (broad shoulders) = higher attractiveness.
Dixson et al. (2010)	Cross-Cultural Body Shape	V-taper is preferred across Western and non-Western cultures.
Maisey et al. (1999)	Waist-to-Chest Ratio	WCR is the most important component of male attractiveness.
Provost et al. (2008)	Mating Strategy	Women seeking short-term mates show a higher preference for muscularity.
Hönekopp et al. (2007)	Physical Fitness	Women can accurately "smell" and "see" fitness and prefer it.
Tognetti et al. (2013)	Formidability	Muscularity signals the ability to protect and provide resources.

And yeah I have the sources too.

Here are the direct links to the research papers and academic summaries regarding male muscularity, frame, and attractiveness:

Spoiler: Sources

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5745404/
(Sell, Lukazsweski, & Townsley, 2017: The dominant role of physical strength in male attractiveness)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10480816/
(Frederick & Haselton, 2007: Men’s Bodily Attractiveness: Muscles as Fitness Indicators)
https://www.researchgate.net/public...eterminants_of_Sexual_Attractiveness_to_Women
(Dixson et al., 2003: Preference for mesomorphic/muscular somatotypes and V-taper)
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40750-023-00212-3
(Pazhoohi, Garza, & Kingstone, 2023: Sexual Selection and the Male Shoulder-to-Hip Ratio)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24958664/
(Coy & Green, 2014: Why low waist-to-chest ratio is attractive)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1634963/
(Fan et al., 2005: Visual perception of male body attractiveness and volume height index)
https://www.ehbonline.org/article/S1090-5138(09)00032-4/fulltext
(Lassek & Gaulin, 2009: Costs and benefits of fat-free muscle mass in men)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10359341/
(Maisey et al., 1999: Characteristics of male attractiveness: WHR vs. WCR)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10480609/
(Braun & Bryan, 2006: Female Preferences for Strong Men)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/225078516_Geometric_morphometrics_of_male_bodies_and_the_perception_of_physical_attractiveness
(Windhager et al., 2011: Broad shoulders as a signal of fitness)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4685550/
(Hönekopp et al., 2007: Physical fitness and attractiveness)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232497645_Waist-to-hip_ratio_and_attractiveness_of_the_male_body
(Henss, 2000: Attractiveness of the V-shaped male body)
https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/ecology-and-evolution/articles/10.3389/fevo.2022.860797/full
(Durkee et al., 2019: Physical strength as a cue for high status and attractiveness)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27488414/
(Dixson et al., 2016: Interaction of muscularity and facial hair in long-term and short-term attraction)
https://www.ehbonline.org/article/S1090-5138(10)00015-8/fulltext
(Puts, 2010: Sexual selection and the evolution of male formidability)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6328455/
(Little et al., 2011: Body composition effects on masculinity and attractiveness)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15705545/
(Fan et al., 2005: 3D scanning study on male body proportions)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/233821035_The_waist-to-chest_ratio_and_not_the_waist-to-hip_ratio_is_the_primary_determinant_of_male_body_attractiveness
(Swami & Tovée, 2005: WCR as the primary driver of male attractiveness)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/26257218_Male_attractiveness_Physical_strength_and_reproductive_success
(Goulding et al., 2010: Strength as a predictor of reproductive success)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23569234/
(Mautz et al., 2013: Interaction of height, shoulder-to-hip ratio, and attractiveness)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3130383/
(Price et al., 2012: Bodily attractiveness and physical fitness in men)

Still coping? Here's an entire thread on it: https://looksmax.org/threads/gymcel...body-the-same-way-we-do-its-100-legit.256601/

Not coping? Let's get into it then.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________



I've decided to make this thread on a whim and ended up making it for my 1000th post special. The current BOTB "First Steroid Cycle" (https://looksmax.org/threads/first-steroid-cycle.10771/) is a good thread with some good information, however it was posted in 2019. We have a very large amount of information and optimization that needs to be put forward and known by the general public, including some critical safety information that the original thread simply glosses over. This creates the illusion of a completely safe reality with steroids which is completely untrue, while steroids are possibly the most fearmongered substance in existence, and aren't even 1/5th of as dangerous as the media makes them out to be, their high profile on this site creates the inaccurate polarized opinion that they are "completely safe with no risks." This is not the case. All you have to to search up is "balding" and "steroid" together in the search bar to see the mass amount of users that are either worried or suffering the real risk of balding from AAS. This is a very real risk with all steroids, there is no such thing as a hair safe steroid maybe besides Anavar which you don't really run by itself ever. Balding is a terrible loss from steroids, if not recovered instantly, it's about a $4000 to $15000 loss since you have to get a hair transplant and that money could've been used for actual hardmaxxing, so it's a massive loss. This isn't even accounting for other, actual health risks such as liver and heart damage.


However this is not a fearmongering thread, nearly 100% of all risks from steroids can be mitigated and in some cases, vaporized with other supplements. A fair warning, this does mean you have to spend more. There is no such thing as a "cheap cycle." Users see that Test E costs $40 and immediately assume they can use their birthday money for a cycle. This is not the case at all. With no further ado, let's get straight into it.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Your first steroid cycle should consist of a 16 week bulk cycle running 500mg Testosterone Enanthate. I will quote the original cycle thread on why 500mg Test is superior to 250mg which is considered a "safe beginner cycle" by a lot of users.


So what will we need for the cycle?

We will be using 2 main compounds, unlike general consensus, it is a better idea to use Testosterone with HGH due to its significant synergetic benefits, and good risk to benefit ratio (HGH is given to children.)

1. 4x 10ml vials of Testosterone Enanthate dosed at 250mg/ml (Goes over 16 weeks, who cares it's always nice to have some extra. Test is cheap anyways. Only buy 3 if money is really that tight, although if you're struggling with an extra $15, perhaps you shouldn't be doing a cycle.)
2. HGH - Commonly sold in 20 vials x 36iu which is 720 iu HGH in total. This will be more than enough for you to run 4 - 8 iu everyday from the start to the end of your cycle.

But wait? Aren't you supposed to run a Test only cycle for your first cycle? Why run HGH? Well to answer this, we need to look into what Testosterone and HGH do for bodybuilding by themselves.

What is Testosterone Enanthate?

Testosterone enanthate is a long-acting, injectable androgen ester used medically to treat low testosterone (hypogonadism). In bodybuilding, it is used to significantly increase protein synthesis, accelerating muscle growth, strength, and recovery rates. It acts as a slow-release compound, typically administered every 5 to 7 days.

What is Human Growth Hormone (HGH)?

Human Growth Hormone (HGH), or somatotropin, is a natural hormone produced by the pituitary gland that regulates growth, metabolism, and cell repair. In bodybuilding, HGH primarily functions as a metabolic and cellular repair agent by stimulating the liver to release IGF-1, which promotes the growth of bone, cartilage, and new muscle tissue (hyperplasia). Beyond structural growth, it acts as a potent fat-burner by mobilizing stored fatty acids to be used for energy while improving overall recovery and systemic healing.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

So now that we have an idea on what these two are, we have to figure out, why on earth would you want to run these two together? Well it comes down to risk management and the actual results you get when you combine these two.

Reason 1: Synergy

I mentioned this before, but what does it mean? Well HGH and Testosterone are part of the 3 main pathways of anabolism, being Testosterone, HGH, and Insulin (although Insulin is a dangerous compound that could kill you and for those reasons, should be avoided until you are very well versed in AAS and have done multiple cycles, and if you're reading this to learn more, you aren't. Credits to Sadist for this information, you can find his thread on insulin here if you're interested.)

How do they synergize?

1. IGF-1

The primary way these two synergize is through the regulation of Insulin-like Growth Factor 1 (IGF-1).

HGH: When you inject HGH, the liver converts much of it into IGF-1, which is the primary driver of systemic tissue growth and cellular repair.
Testosterone: Testosterone also increases IGF-1 levels, but more importantly, it increases the sensitivity of the androgen receptors and enhances the local expression of IGF-1 within the muscle tissue itself.
Result: You get a massive spike in both circulating and localized IGF-1, leading to significantly more protein synthesis than either compound could achieve alone.

2. Complementary Nitrogen Retention​

Muscle growth is essentially a game of maintaining a positive nitrogen balance.

Testosterone is a causes Nitrogen Retention. It signals the muscle cells to hold onto more nitrogen, which is a fundamental building block of protein.
HGH focuses on Hyperplasia and Hypertrophy. While testosterone makes existing muscle fibers larger (hypertrophy), HGH is believed to potentially aid in the creation of new muscle cells (hyperplasia) and strengthening the collagen structures (tendons/ligaments) that support those muscles.

3. Nutrient Partitioning & Metabolic Efficiency​

This is where you actually feel the synergy. They work together to decide where your calories go.

Fat Loss: HGH is highly lipolytic, meaning it mobilizes body fat to be used as energy.
Muscle Sparing: Testosterone prevents the breakdown of muscle (anticatabolism) while you are in a fat-burning state.
Result: This duo allows for "recomposition," the ability to lose body fat while simultaneously gaining or maintaining significant lean mass, as the body uses the liberated fat stores to fuel the protein synthesis triggered by the testosterone.

4. Structural Support ​

High levels of testosterone can increase strength so rapidly that your tendons and ligaments can't keep up, leading to tears.

HGH increases collagen synthesis. It strengthens the connective tissues and bone density. (This also helps your skin.)
By adding HGH to a Test cycle, you are essentially allowing your body to handle the power provided by the testosterone.

Reason 2: ROI (Return On Investment)

1. Breaking the Myostatin Barrier​

On a Testosterone cycle, the body eventually fights back by increasing Myostatin, a protein that acts to stop muscle growth. HGH (via IGF-1) has been shown to help suppress Myostatin levels. By running both, you are effectively allowing for growth that would otherwise plateau.

2. Quality of Gains ​

A "Test-only" cycle often results in significant weight gain, but a large portion of that is water and glycogen.

Testosterone Only: High strength, but often accompanied by a "puffy" look and increased body fat if calories are high.
Testosterone + HGH: Because HGH increases lipolysis (fat mobilization), it forces the body to use fat for fuel. This means that for every 10 lbs gained on the scale, a much higher percentage is actual contractile muscle tissue rather than water or fat.

3. Accelerated Recovery​

In any cycle, the "cost" is the wear and tear on your joints and the time it takes to recover.

Testosterone Only: Increases strength faster than tendons can adapt, often leading to injuries that stall progress.
Testosterone + HGH: HGH significantly increases collagen synthesis. This heals micro-tears in connective tissue in real-time. The ROI here is longevity; you can train harder, more frequently, and for more weeks at a time without your body breaking down.

4. Maximizing the Risk-to-Reward Ratio​

Using performance-enhancing drugs is a gamble with your long-term health; you are putting strain on your cardiovascular system, kidneys, and endocrine health regardless of which compounds you choose.

Underwhelming Results: Running a Testosterone cycle alone still carries the same risks, but you are limited by the body’s natural plateaus and the sloppy gains of water and fat. Adding HGH to the cycle allows you to achieve a level of cellular change (hyperplasia) and body composition refinement that Testosterone simply cannot provide on its own.

If you are already willing to pay the biological tax of a cycle, spending the extra money on HGH ensures you aren't just getting a temporary, bloated look, but are instead squeezing every possible ounce of permanent tissue growth and recovery out of the risk you're taking.

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Now that we have gotten the "why" out of the way, let's get into the "how."

What you will need for injections:

Testosterone:
- 30 syringes with needles gauge 25 or 27. Must be at least 1 cc. Needles should be 1" long for glute injection and 0.5" for quads. If you are fat then add an extra half inch to each.
- Alcohol wipes.

HGH:
- Insulin Syringes: Choose 29–31 gauge, 0.5 ml or 1 ml syringes with short 8mm needles.
- Alcohol Swabs: For disinfecting the vial tops and your skin.
- Bacteriostatic Water (BAC Water): To mix your HGH.
- Sharps Container: For safe disposal of used needles.

How to inject Testosterone (via .net)

Wipe the lid of the vial with an alcohol wipe. Pull back the syringe to the amount you intend to draw up (eg. 1 mL) and stick the needle in the vial. Shoot that much air into the vial and draw up the amount you want. You will get air as well. Just keep shooting the air back into the vial and drawing back until you actually have the right amount of roids.

Wipe a spot on your ass with alcohol. You can inject into the muscle (IM or intramuscular) or into the fat (SC or subcutaneous). Most people do IM. If you're doing that, you need to inject into safe spots to not hit a nerve. In the ass, that's the upper outer aspect:
View attachment 4866517

How to inject HGH

Gently pinch a small fold of skin at your chosen injection site (preferably the abdomen.) Hold the syringe at a 45-degree angle and stick the needle into the skin. Push the plunger down slowly to inject the HGH. Once you're done, pull the needle out and use a cotton swab to apply light pressure to the spot if you need to.
View attachment 4866564

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Now it is time to go through all the things you will need to nuke all the side effects from steroids. Everything I mention below is a must buy or else you will botch your cycle, your health, and yourself.

Side Effect	Cause	What Supplement To Use
Gyno / Bloat	Estrogen	Aromatase Inhibitors
Hair Loss	DHT	3mg Dutasteride & RU58841 5%
Acne	DHT	Accutane 10-40mg (Isotretinoin)
Shrunken Balls	Shut down of HPTA	HCG (100 - 250 IU every other day)
Testosterone Suppression	Exogenous Testosterone	Nolvadex 20mg daily (2 weeks after your last injection

I will go over each in more detail below:

1. Aromatase Inhibitors

Why do you need an aromatase inhibitor (AI)?

Your body as a man needs estrogen to function. Your body makes estrogen by converting testosterone via the aromatase enzyme. When you start taking excess testosterone, your body starts creating more estrogen via aromatizing to reach homeostasis. Excess estrogen can result in gyno, extreme bloat, being highly emotional and other unpleasant side effects. For this reason, we take an aromatase inhibitor to keep estrogen levels lower. However, it is important not to take to much AI because low estrogen also has bad side effects and inhibits your ability to build muscle.

Arimidex and Aromasin are the two best choices for aromatase inhibitors for most people. 1mg of Arimidex has similar anti-estrogen effects as 25mg of Aromasin. However some people take Letrozole as well so I will also include that below.

Property	Anastrozole (Arimidex)	Letrozole (Femara)	Exemestane (Aromasin)
Type	Non-steroidal, reversible	Non-steroidal, reversible	Steroidal, irreversible
Estrogen Suppression	~50–70% (dose dependent)	~80–98% (very potent)	~65–85% (irreversible)
Half-Life	~48 hrs	~40–60 hrs	~24–27 hrs
Rebound Risk	Medium if stopped fast	High (sharp increase)	Low (enzyme destroyed)
Titration Precision	High (easy microdose)	Moderate to difficult	Low (fixed dose tabs)
Bone Impact	Mild (long-term)	moderate to severe	moderate
Lipid impact	Mild, but could affect HDL	Moderate to severe	moderate
Onset of Suppression	~24 hours	Within hours	~24 hours (stronger than Anastrozole)
Peak Suppression	~2–4 days	~2–3 days	~2–3 days

PRICES

Source	Anastrozole Price (1mg)	Letrozole Price (2.5mg)	Exemestane Price (25mg)
Pharma (Brand)	$5–$10	$8–$15	$10–$20
Generic (Indian)	$0.50–$1.50	$1–$3	$1–$4
UGL (Chinese)	$0.20–$0.50	$0.30–$1	$0.30–$1

SIDE EFFECTS

Side Effect	Anastrozole (Arimidex)	Letrozole (Femera)	Exemestane (Aromasin)
Hot flashes	Common	Common	Common
Joint pain	Moderate	Moderate to severe	Mild to moderate
Fatigue	Mild to moderate	Moderate	Mild to moderate
Bone density loss	Mild (long-term use)	More severe if misused	Moderate (monitor needed)
Nausea	Mild	Mild to moderate	Mild
Mood changes	Possible	Possible	Possible
Headache	Occasionally	Occasionally	Occasionally
Increased cholesterol	Mild	Moderate to severe	Moderate
Muscle pain	Mild	Moderate	Mild

^ Cannot find the thread but I've had this information saved from a heightmaxxing thread (cope.)

I personally recommend Aromasin, although it is more expensive and harsher on hair. We will go over hair next.

2. Hair Loss

RU58841:

RU58841 acts as a topical androgen receptor antagonist that competes directly with dihydrotestosterone (DHT) for binding sites on hair follicles. By occupying these receptors, it prevents DHT from triggering the follicle miniaturization process without significantly lowering systemic hormone levels in the rest of the body. The 5% variant of this is preferred.

Dutasteride:

Dutasteride is a potent 5-alpha reductase inhibitor that works by blocking both Type I and Type II enzymes, which are responsible for converting testosterone into dihydrotestosterone (DHT). By reducing systemic and scalp DHT levels by up to 90% or more, it effectively halts the miniaturization of hair follicles and creates an environment where regrowth is possible. Take 2.5 - 3mg minimum.

View attachment 4866791
(Pic courtesy of SlayerJonas)

3. Acne

Accutane (Isotretinoin):

Accutane (Isotretinoin) addresses acne at the source by permanently shrinking the sebaceous glands and drastically reducing the amount of oil (sebum) they produce. This prevents pores from clogging and creates an inhospitable environment for acne-causing bacteria, often leading to long-term or permanent remission of severe breakouts.


4. Shrunken Balls

HCG:

Instead of waiting until the end to fix atrophy, you should run HCG throughout your entire cycle to prevent your testicles from shrinking in the first place. Use a dose of 250iu every other day to provide a constant signal to the Leydig cells, keeping them functional and full-sized so that your eventual recovery is much faster and more reliable.

Now there is alot of misinformation going around when it comes to this stuff. It artificially gets your balls to start making testosterone, it does not restart your whole complex natural system of different glands and hormones communicating with each other to make your balls produce testosterone (it is known as the HTPA or hypothalamic–pituitary–gonadal axis). That is why it should not be used during PCT. People who use this as their PCT feel great while they are using it but as soon as they come off will have low T because they never restarted HTPA. (via jefferson)

5. Testosterone Suppression

PCT - Nolvadex:

On Testosterone Enanthate, you want to wait 2 weeks after your last injection to let the drug clear before you start your PCT. For a 12-15 week cycle, the standard is a 6 week PCT taking 20mg of Nolvadex daily.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Debunking Common Natty Copes:

1. "They still have to work just as hard."​

Cope: "Steroids only work if you train like a beast; otherwise, they do nothing."
Reality: Research (notably the 1996 Bhasin study) showed that men taking 600mg of Test-E who did not work out gained more lean muscle mass than natural men who did work out. While gear makes hard work more effective, it also makes laziness more productive than natural effort.

2. "It's all water weight."​

Cope: "They just look big because they’re bloated; it’ll all disappear once they go off."
Reality: While certain compounds (like Dbol) cause water retention, steroids primarily drive myofibrillar hypertrophy (actual muscle fiber growth). Furthermore, HGH and certain steroids can cause hyperplasia, the splitting of muscle cells, creating permanent structural changes that a natural lifter can never achieve.

3. "The 'Natty Limit' is higher than people think."​

Cope: If I just train for 20 years and eat perfectly, I can look like [insert fake-natty influencer].
Reality: The Fat-Free Mass Index (FFMI) is a reliable ceiling. Most humans naturally top out at an FFMI of around 25. Influencers who are 220lbs and 8% body fat are statistically impossible to achieve without exogenous hormones.

4. "I’d rather have 'real' muscle."​

Cope: "Natural muscle is denser and stays better than "fake" steroid muscle."
Reality: Muscle tissue is muscle tissue. The contractile proteins (actin and myosin) are the same. While an enhanced lifter will lose the "super-physiological" fullness when they come off, they will still retain a higher baseline of muscle than they ever could have reached naturally due to increased myonuclei count.

5. "Steroids will give you 'Roid Rage' and turn you into a monster."​

Cope: "Every gear user is a ticking time bomb of aggression."
Reality: While certain compounds (like Trenbolone) can increase irritability, "Roid Rage" is largely a myth for those with stable mental health. Most users on a sensible Test/HGH cycle report feeling better, more confident, and more stable due to optimized hormone levels.

6. "They have no discipline/took the easy way out."​

Cope: "Going to the gym naturally is "harder" and shows more character."
Reality: Enhanced lifters often train harder and longer because their recovery allows for it. Being "natural" is often a choice of health and longevity, but it doesn't automatically grant a "discipline" trophy. Taking 500mg of Test doesn't make the 405lb squat any lighter.

7. "Their organs are going to explode tomorrow."​

Cope: "Anyone on gear is going to die by age 40."
Reality: While the risks are real (left ventricular hypertrophy, kidney strain), many users mitigate these through frequent blood work, ancillary drugs (like HCG and AI), and cruising on TRT doses rather than constant blasting. It’s a calculated risk, not a guaranteed death sentence.

8. "It’s all about the 'Lighting and Angles'."​

Cope: "That guy only looks big because of the gym mirrors and a pump."
Reality: No amount of lighting can fake the 3D "cannonball" delts and "traps-to-ears" look that comes from a high density of androgen receptors in the upper body, features that are the "dead giveaway" of an enhanced physique.

9. "I'll catch up to them eventually."​

Cope: "If I stay natty for 10 years, I'll be bigger than the guy who did a 16-week cycle."
Reality: A single, well-executed cycle can put more lean mass on a frame than 3 - 5 years of perfect natural lifting. The "gap" doesn't close, it widens every year the other person stays enhanced.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________

TL;DR:
Steroid downsides: Preventable minor stuff.
The Upsides:
View attachment 4867007View attachment 4867038

Ascend TODAY.

Your perfect life awaits you, your hot wife, your high paying job, the admiration from everyone you meet no matter what, your future kid's respect for you. All of this may be few cycles away, will you dedicate your life this one time? Or will you let the opportunity pass and some other man do it and live your dream life while you rot away?

The world is yours.

Tagging High Iq Users: @SlayerJonas @Chad @Zagro @Sadist @Sayori how'd I do? Thread was a little rushed due to Jonas' current pinned thread being posted right as I was working on mine although.

This was my 1000th post special, hope you enjoyed!

mirin

 

[Looksmaxxer1248]

Are you a framelet?

View attachment 4865740

Do you want women swarming you like this wherever you go?
View attachment 4865708View attachment 4865712


Do you want to framemog the ASU Frat Leader?

View attachment 4865716

Do you want to be admired just for existing by your friends, peers, girls, and even strangers?

Well look no further, this thread will be your introduction into being born again as a slayer, through the means of framemaxxing with PEDS!

Natty Lifting is COPE meant to keep you away from the big leagues. The average "decent physique" takes years to attain, the same physique is 1 starter cycle of 16 weeks away. A good frame looksmatches you higher instantly at an insanely good ROI for you.

View attachment 4867011View attachment 4867012View attachment 4867015

You want these types of looksmatches, have the face, but still can't get it? Look below to find out why.


View attachment 4866987


Which one of the men above do you think would have a higher chance of slaying?


Studies proving that frame/physique/strength are insanely important for attractiveness.

Study/Author	Focus Area	Key Finding
Sell et al. (2017)	Physical Strength	Strength is the #1 predictor of bodily attractiveness.
Pazhoohi et al. (2019)	Shoulder-to-Hip Ratio	High SHR (broad shoulders) = higher attractiveness.
Dixson et al. (2010)	Cross-Cultural Body Shape	V-taper is preferred across Western and non-Western cultures.
Maisey et al. (1999)	Waist-to-Chest Ratio	WCR is the most important component of male attractiveness.
Provost et al. (2008)	Mating Strategy	Women seeking short-term mates show a higher preference for muscularity.
Hönekopp et al. (2007)	Physical Fitness	Women can accurately "smell" and "see" fitness and prefer it.
Tognetti et al. (2013)	Formidability	Muscularity signals the ability to protect and provide resources.

And yeah I have the sources too.

Here are the direct links to the research papers and academic summaries regarding male muscularity, frame, and attractiveness:

Spoiler: Sources

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5745404/
(Sell, Lukazsweski, & Townsley, 2017: The dominant role of physical strength in male attractiveness)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10480816/
(Frederick & Haselton, 2007: Men’s Bodily Attractiveness: Muscles as Fitness Indicators)
https://www.researchgate.net/public...eterminants_of_Sexual_Attractiveness_to_Women
(Dixson et al., 2003: Preference for mesomorphic/muscular somatotypes and V-taper)
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40750-023-00212-3
(Pazhoohi, Garza, & Kingstone, 2023: Sexual Selection and the Male Shoulder-to-Hip Ratio)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24958664/
(Coy & Green, 2014: Why low waist-to-chest ratio is attractive)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1634963/
(Fan et al., 2005: Visual perception of male body attractiveness and volume height index)
https://www.ehbonline.org/article/S1090-5138(09)00032-4/fulltext
(Lassek & Gaulin, 2009: Costs and benefits of fat-free muscle mass in men)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10359341/
(Maisey et al., 1999: Characteristics of male attractiveness: WHR vs. WCR)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10480609/
(Braun & Bryan, 2006: Female Preferences for Strong Men)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/225078516_Geometric_morphometrics_of_male_bodies_and_the_perception_of_physical_attractiveness
(Windhager et al., 2011: Broad shoulders as a signal of fitness)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4685550/
(Hönekopp et al., 2007: Physical fitness and attractiveness)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232497645_Waist-to-hip_ratio_and_attractiveness_of_the_male_body
(Henss, 2000: Attractiveness of the V-shaped male body)
https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/ecology-and-evolution/articles/10.3389/fevo.2022.860797/full
(Durkee et al., 2019: Physical strength as a cue for high status and attractiveness)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27488414/
(Dixson et al., 2016: Interaction of muscularity and facial hair in long-term and short-term attraction)
https://www.ehbonline.org/article/S1090-5138(10)00015-8/fulltext
(Puts, 2010: Sexual selection and the evolution of male formidability)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6328455/
(Little et al., 2011: Body composition effects on masculinity and attractiveness)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15705545/
(Fan et al., 2005: 3D scanning study on male body proportions)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/233821035_The_waist-to-chest_ratio_and_not_the_waist-to-hip_ratio_is_the_primary_determinant_of_male_body_attractiveness
(Swami & Tovée, 2005: WCR as the primary driver of male attractiveness)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/26257218_Male_attractiveness_Physical_strength_and_reproductive_success
(Goulding et al., 2010: Strength as a predictor of reproductive success)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23569234/
(Mautz et al., 2013: Interaction of height, shoulder-to-hip ratio, and attractiveness)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3130383/
(Price et al., 2012: Bodily attractiveness and physical fitness in men)

Still coping? Here's an entire thread on it: https://looksmax.org/threads/gymcel...body-the-same-way-we-do-its-100-legit.256601/

Not coping? Let's get into it then.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________



I've decided to make this thread on a whim and ended up making it for my 1000th post special. The current BOTB "First Steroid Cycle" (https://looksmax.org/threads/first-steroid-cycle.10771/) is a good thread with some good information, however it was posted in 2019. We have a very large amount of information and optimization that needs to be put forward and known by the general public, including some critical safety information that the original thread simply glosses over. This creates the illusion of a completely safe reality with steroids which is completely untrue, while steroids are possibly the most fearmongered substance in existence, and aren't even 1/5th of as dangerous as the media makes them out to be, their high profile on this site creates the inaccurate polarized opinion that they are "completely safe with no risks." This is not the case. All you have to to search up is "balding" and "steroid" together in the search bar to see the mass amount of users that are either worried or suffering the real risk of balding from AAS. This is a very real risk with all steroids, there is no such thing as a hair safe steroid maybe besides Anavar which you don't really run by itself ever. Balding is a terrible loss from steroids, if not recovered instantly, it's about a $4000 to $15000 loss since you have to get a hair transplant and that money could've been used for actual hardmaxxing, so it's a massive loss. This isn't even accounting for other, actual health risks such as liver and heart damage.


However this is not a fearmongering thread, nearly 100% of all risks from steroids can be mitigated and in some cases, vaporized with other supplements. A fair warning, this does mean you have to spend more. There is no such thing as a "cheap cycle." Users see that Test E costs $40 and immediately assume they can use their birthday money for a cycle. This is not the case at all. With no further ado, let's get straight into it.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Your first steroid cycle should consist of a 16 week bulk cycle running 500mg Testosterone Enanthate. I will quote the original cycle thread on why 500mg Test is superior to 250mg which is considered a "safe beginner cycle" by a lot of users.


So what will we need for the cycle?

We will be using 2 main compounds, unlike general consensus, it is a better idea to use Testosterone with HGH due to its significant synergetic benefits, and good risk to benefit ratio (HGH is given to children.)

1. 4x 10ml vials of Testosterone Enanthate dosed at 250mg/ml (Goes over 16 weeks, who cares it's always nice to have some extra. Test is cheap anyways. Only buy 3 if money is really that tight, although if you're struggling with an extra $15, perhaps you shouldn't be doing a cycle.)
2. HGH - Commonly sold in 20 vials x 36iu which is 720 iu HGH in total. This will be more than enough for you to run 4 - 8 iu everyday from the start to the end of your cycle.

But wait? Aren't you supposed to run a Test only cycle for your first cycle? Why run HGH? Well to answer this, we need to look into what Testosterone and HGH do for bodybuilding by themselves.

What is Testosterone Enanthate?

Testosterone enanthate is a long-acting, injectable androgen ester used medically to treat low testosterone (hypogonadism). In bodybuilding, it is used to significantly increase protein synthesis, accelerating muscle growth, strength, and recovery rates. It acts as a slow-release compound, typically administered every 5 to 7 days.

What is Human Growth Hormone (HGH)?

Human Growth Hormone (HGH), or somatotropin, is a natural hormone produced by the pituitary gland that regulates growth, metabolism, and cell repair. In bodybuilding, HGH primarily functions as a metabolic and cellular repair agent by stimulating the liver to release IGF-1, which promotes the growth of bone, cartilage, and new muscle tissue (hyperplasia). Beyond structural growth, it acts as a potent fat-burner by mobilizing stored fatty acids to be used for energy while improving overall recovery and systemic healing.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

So now that we have an idea on what these two are, we have to figure out, why on earth would you want to run these two together? Well it comes down to risk management and the actual results you get when you combine these two.

Reason 1: Synergy

I mentioned this before, but what does it mean? Well HGH and Testosterone are part of the 3 main pathways of anabolism, being Testosterone, HGH, and Insulin (although Insulin is a dangerous compound that could kill you and for those reasons, should be avoided until you are very well versed in AAS and have done multiple cycles, and if you're reading this to learn more, you aren't. Credits to Sadist for this information, you can find his thread on insulin here if you're interested.)

How do they synergize?

1. IGF-1

The primary way these two synergize is through the regulation of Insulin-like Growth Factor 1 (IGF-1).

HGH: When you inject HGH, the liver converts much of it into IGF-1, which is the primary driver of systemic tissue growth and cellular repair.
Testosterone: Testosterone also increases IGF-1 levels, but more importantly, it increases the sensitivity of the androgen receptors and enhances the local expression of IGF-1 within the muscle tissue itself.
Result: You get a massive spike in both circulating and localized IGF-1, leading to significantly more protein synthesis than either compound could achieve alone.

2. Complementary Nitrogen Retention​

Muscle growth is essentially a game of maintaining a positive nitrogen balance.

Testosterone is a causes Nitrogen Retention. It signals the muscle cells to hold onto more nitrogen, which is a fundamental building block of protein.
HGH focuses on Hyperplasia and Hypertrophy. While testosterone makes existing muscle fibers larger (hypertrophy), HGH is believed to potentially aid in the creation of new muscle cells (hyperplasia) and strengthening the collagen structures (tendons/ligaments) that support those muscles.

3. Nutrient Partitioning & Metabolic Efficiency​

This is where you actually feel the synergy. They work together to decide where your calories go.

Fat Loss: HGH is highly lipolytic, meaning it mobilizes body fat to be used as energy.
Muscle Sparing: Testosterone prevents the breakdown of muscle (anticatabolism) while you are in a fat-burning state.
Result: This duo allows for "recomposition," the ability to lose body fat while simultaneously gaining or maintaining significant lean mass, as the body uses the liberated fat stores to fuel the protein synthesis triggered by the testosterone.

4. Structural Support ​

High levels of testosterone can increase strength so rapidly that your tendons and ligaments can't keep up, leading to tears.

HGH increases collagen synthesis. It strengthens the connective tissues and bone density. (This also helps your skin.)
By adding HGH to a Test cycle, you are essentially allowing your body to handle the power provided by the testosterone.

Reason 2: ROI (Return On Investment)

1. Breaking the Myostatin Barrier​

On a Testosterone cycle, the body eventually fights back by increasing Myostatin, a protein that acts to stop muscle growth. HGH (via IGF-1) has been shown to help suppress Myostatin levels. By running both, you are effectively allowing for growth that would otherwise plateau.

2. Quality of Gains ​

A "Test-only" cycle often results in significant weight gain, but a large portion of that is water and glycogen.

Testosterone Only: High strength, but often accompanied by a "puffy" look and increased body fat if calories are high.
Testosterone + HGH: Because HGH increases lipolysis (fat mobilization), it forces the body to use fat for fuel. This means that for every 10 lbs gained on the scale, a much higher percentage is actual contractile muscle tissue rather than water or fat.

3. Accelerated Recovery​

In any cycle, the "cost" is the wear and tear on your joints and the time it takes to recover.

Testosterone Only: Increases strength faster than tendons can adapt, often leading to injuries that stall progress.
Testosterone + HGH: HGH significantly increases collagen synthesis. This heals micro-tears in connective tissue in real-time. The ROI here is longevity; you can train harder, more frequently, and for more weeks at a time without your body breaking down.

4. Maximizing the Risk-to-Reward Ratio​

Using performance-enhancing drugs is a gamble with your long-term health; you are putting strain on your cardiovascular system, kidneys, and endocrine health regardless of which compounds you choose.

Underwhelming Results: Running a Testosterone cycle alone still carries the same risks, but you are limited by the body’s natural plateaus and the sloppy gains of water and fat. Adding HGH to the cycle allows you to achieve a level of cellular change (hyperplasia) and body composition refinement that Testosterone simply cannot provide on its own.

If you are already willing to pay the biological tax of a cycle, spending the extra money on HGH ensures you aren't just getting a temporary, bloated look, but are instead squeezing every possible ounce of permanent tissue growth and recovery out of the risk you're taking.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Now that we have gotten the "why" out of the way, let's get into the "how."

What you will need for injections:

Testosterone:
- 30 syringes with needles gauge 25 or 27. Must be at least 1 cc. Needles should be 1" long for glute injection and 0.5" for quads. If you are fat then add an extra half inch to each.
- Alcohol wipes.

HGH:
- Insulin Syringes: Choose 29–31 gauge, 0.5 ml or 1 ml syringes with short 8mm needles.
- Alcohol Swabs: For disinfecting the vial tops and your skin.
- Bacteriostatic Water (BAC Water): To mix your HGH.
- Sharps Container: For safe disposal of used needles.

How to inject Testosterone (via .net)

Wipe the lid of the vial with an alcohol wipe. Pull back the syringe to the amount you intend to draw up (eg. 1 mL) and stick the needle in the vial. Shoot that much air into the vial and draw up the amount you want. You will get air as well. Just keep shooting the air back into the vial and drawing back until you actually have the right amount of roids.

Wipe a spot on your ass with alcohol. You can inject into the muscle (IM or intramuscular) or into the fat (SC or subcutaneous). Most people do IM. If you're doing that, you need to inject into safe spots to not hit a nerve. In the ass, that's the upper outer aspect:
View attachment 4866517

How to inject HGH

Gently pinch a small fold of skin at your chosen injection site (preferably the abdomen.) Hold the syringe at a 45-degree angle and stick the needle into the skin. Push the plunger down slowly to inject the HGH. Once you're done, pull the needle out and use a cotton swab to apply light pressure to the spot if you need to.
View attachment 4866564

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Now it is time to go through all the things you will need to nuke all the side effects from steroids. Everything I mention below is a must buy or else you will botch your cycle, your health, and yourself.

Side Effect	Cause	What Supplement To Use
Gyno / Bloat	Estrogen	Aromatase Inhibitors
Hair Loss	DHT	3mg Dutasteride & RU58841 5%
Acne	DHT	Accutane 10-40mg (Isotretinoin)
Shrunken Balls	Shut down of HPTA	HCG (100 - 250 IU every other day)
Testosterone Suppression	Exogenous Testosterone	Nolvadex 20mg daily (2 weeks after your last injection

I will go over each in more detail below:

1. Aromatase Inhibitors

Why do you need an aromatase inhibitor (AI)?

Your body as a man needs estrogen to function. Your body makes estrogen by converting testosterone via the aromatase enzyme. When you start taking excess testosterone, your body starts creating more estrogen via aromatizing to reach homeostasis. Excess estrogen can result in gyno, extreme bloat, being highly emotional and other unpleasant side effects. For this reason, we take an aromatase inhibitor to keep estrogen levels lower. However, it is important not to take to much AI because low estrogen also has bad side effects and inhibits your ability to build muscle.

Arimidex and Aromasin are the two best choices for aromatase inhibitors for most people. 1mg of Arimidex has similar anti-estrogen effects as 25mg of Aromasin. However some people take Letrozole as well so I will also include that below.

Property	Anastrozole (Arimidex)	Letrozole (Femara)	Exemestane (Aromasin)
Type	Non-steroidal, reversible	Non-steroidal, reversible	Steroidal, irreversible
Estrogen Suppression	~50–70% (dose dependent)	~80–98% (very potent)	~65–85% (irreversible)
Half-Life	~48 hrs	~40–60 hrs	~24–27 hrs
Rebound Risk	Medium if stopped fast	High (sharp increase)	Low (enzyme destroyed)
Titration Precision	High (easy microdose)	Moderate to difficult	Low (fixed dose tabs)
Bone Impact	Mild (long-term)	moderate to severe	moderate
Lipid impact	Mild, but could affect HDL	Moderate to severe	moderate
Onset of Suppression	~24 hours	Within hours	~24 hours (stronger than Anastrozole)
Peak Suppression	~2–4 days	~2–3 days	~2–3 days

PRICES

Source	Anastrozole Price (1mg)	Letrozole Price (2.5mg)	Exemestane Price (25mg)
Pharma (Brand)	$5–$10	$8–$15	$10–$20
Generic (Indian)	$0.50–$1.50	$1–$3	$1–$4
UGL (Chinese)	$0.20–$0.50	$0.30–$1	$0.30–$1

SIDE EFFECTS

Side Effect	Anastrozole (Arimidex)	Letrozole (Femera)	Exemestane (Aromasin)
Hot flashes	Common	Common	Common
Joint pain	Moderate	Moderate to severe	Mild to moderate
Fatigue	Mild to moderate	Moderate	Mild to moderate
Bone density loss	Mild (long-term use)	More severe if misused	Moderate (monitor needed)
Nausea	Mild	Mild to moderate	Mild
Mood changes	Possible	Possible	Possible
Headache	Occasionally	Occasionally	Occasionally
Increased cholesterol	Mild	Moderate to severe	Moderate
Muscle pain	Mild	Moderate	Mild

^ Cannot find the thread but I've had this information saved from a heightmaxxing thread (cope.)

I personally recommend Aromasin, although it is more expensive and harsher on hair. We will go over hair next.

2. Hair Loss

RU58841:

RU58841 acts as a topical androgen receptor antagonist that competes directly with dihydrotestosterone (DHT) for binding sites on hair follicles. By occupying these receptors, it prevents DHT from triggering the follicle miniaturization process without significantly lowering systemic hormone levels in the rest of the body. The 5% variant of this is preferred.

Dutasteride:

Dutasteride is a potent 5-alpha reductase inhibitor that works by blocking both Type I and Type II enzymes, which are responsible for converting testosterone into dihydrotestosterone (DHT). By reducing systemic and scalp DHT levels by up to 90% or more, it effectively halts the miniaturization of hair follicles and creates an environment where regrowth is possible. Take 2.5 - 3mg minimum.

View attachment 4866791
(Pic courtesy of SlayerJonas)

3. Acne

Accutane (Isotretinoin):

Accutane (Isotretinoin) addresses acne at the source by permanently shrinking the sebaceous glands and drastically reducing the amount of oil (sebum) they produce. This prevents pores from clogging and creates an inhospitable environment for acne-causing bacteria, often leading to long-term or permanent remission of severe breakouts.


4. Shrunken Balls

HCG:

Instead of waiting until the end to fix atrophy, you should run HCG throughout your entire cycle to prevent your testicles from shrinking in the first place. Use a dose of 250iu every other day to provide a constant signal to the Leydig cells, keeping them functional and full-sized so that your eventual recovery is much faster and more reliable.

Now there is alot of misinformation going around when it comes to this stuff. It artificially gets your balls to start making testosterone, it does not restart your whole complex natural system of different glands and hormones communicating with each other to make your balls produce testosterone (it is known as the HTPA or hypothalamic–pituitary–gonadal axis). That is why it should not be used during PCT. People who use this as their PCT feel great while they are using it but as soon as they come off will have low T because they never restarted HTPA. (via jefferson)

5. Testosterone Suppression

PCT - Nolvadex:

On Testosterone Enanthate, you want to wait 2 weeks after your last injection to let the drug clear before you start your PCT. For a 12-15 week cycle, the standard is a 6 week PCT taking 20mg of Nolvadex daily.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Debunking Common Natty Copes:

1. "They still have to work just as hard."​

Cope: "Steroids only work if you train like a beast; otherwise, they do nothing."
Reality: Research (notably the 1996 Bhasin study) showed that men taking 600mg of Test-E who did not work out gained more lean muscle mass than natural men who did work out. While gear makes hard work more effective, it also makes laziness more productive than natural effort.

2. "It's all water weight."​

Cope: "They just look big because they’re bloated; it’ll all disappear once they go off."
Reality: While certain compounds (like Dbol) cause water retention, steroids primarily drive myofibrillar hypertrophy (actual muscle fiber growth). Furthermore, HGH and certain steroids can cause hyperplasia, the splitting of muscle cells, creating permanent structural changes that a natural lifter can never achieve.

3. "The 'Natty Limit' is higher than people think."​

Cope: If I just train for 20 years and eat perfectly, I can look like [insert fake-natty influencer].
Reality: The Fat-Free Mass Index (FFMI) is a reliable ceiling. Most humans naturally top out at an FFMI of around 25. Influencers who are 220lbs and 8% body fat are statistically impossible to achieve without exogenous hormones.

4. "I’d rather have 'real' muscle."​

Cope: "Natural muscle is denser and stays better than "fake" steroid muscle."
Reality: Muscle tissue is muscle tissue. The contractile proteins (actin and myosin) are the same. While an enhanced lifter will lose the "super-physiological" fullness when they come off, they will still retain a higher baseline of muscle than they ever could have reached naturally due to increased myonuclei count.

5. "Steroids will give you 'Roid Rage' and turn you into a monster."​

Cope: "Every gear user is a ticking time bomb of aggression."
Reality: While certain compounds (like Trenbolone) can increase irritability, "Roid Rage" is largely a myth for those with stable mental health. Most users on a sensible Test/HGH cycle report feeling better, more confident, and more stable due to optimized hormone levels.

6. "They have no discipline/took the easy way out."​

Cope: "Going to the gym naturally is "harder" and shows more character."
Reality: Enhanced lifters often train harder and longer because their recovery allows for it. Being "natural" is often a choice of health and longevity, but it doesn't automatically grant a "discipline" trophy. Taking 500mg of Test doesn't make the 405lb squat any lighter.

7. "Their organs are going to explode tomorrow."​

Cope: "Anyone on gear is going to die by age 40."
Reality: While the risks are real (left ventricular hypertrophy, kidney strain), many users mitigate these through frequent blood work, ancillary drugs (like HCG and AI), and cruising on TRT doses rather than constant blasting. It’s a calculated risk, not a guaranteed death sentence.

8. "It’s all about the 'Lighting and Angles'."​

Cope: "That guy only looks big because of the gym mirrors and a pump."
Reality: No amount of lighting can fake the 3D "cannonball" delts and "traps-to-ears" look that comes from a high density of androgen receptors in the upper body, features that are the "dead giveaway" of an enhanced physique.

9. "I'll catch up to them eventually."​

Cope: "If I stay natty for 10 years, I'll be bigger than the guy who did a 16-week cycle."
Reality: A single, well-executed cycle can put more lean mass on a frame than 3 - 5 years of perfect natural lifting. The "gap" doesn't close, it widens every year the other person stays enhanced.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________

TL;DR:
Steroid downsides: Preventable minor stuff.
The Upsides:
View attachment 4867007View attachment 4867038

Ascend TODAY.

Your perfect life awaits you, your hot wife, your high paying job, the admiration from everyone you meet no matter what, your future kid's respect for you. All of this may be few cycles away, will you dedicate your life this one time? Or will you let the opportunity pass and some other man do it and live your dream life while you rot away?

The world is yours.

Tagging High Iq Users: @SlayerJonas @Chad @Zagro @Sadist @Sayori how'd I do? Thread was a little rushed due to Jonas' current pinned thread being posted right as I was working on mine although.

This was my 1000th post special, hope you enjoyed!

Saving for later thanks

 

[ghost!]

arguably this should be BOTB compared to Jonas guide

 

[rh205]

Are you able to break down the final cost of the cycle (differentiate what you need to have purchased from day 1 and what you need to purchase for PCT, so that budgeting this is easier to think about)?

 

[Magnesium_]

for someone who has never pinned before, this thread was very easy to comprehend

 

[gymcelled]

Fire asf just hopped on ru and 2.5 mgs for hairloss and if it gets better i’ll probably hop on tho i do enjoy the twink look for some types of drip

have u seen any results boyo ? debating buying ru and dut as well, in case my current cycle rapes my hairline

 

[gymcelled]

Are you a framelet?

View attachment 4865740

Do you want women swarming you like this wherever you go?
View attachment 4865708View attachment 4865712


Do you want to framemog the ASU Frat Leader?

View attachment 4865716

Do you want to be admired just for existing by your friends, peers, girls, and even strangers?

Well look no further, this thread will be your introduction into being born again as a slayer, through the means of framemaxxing with PEDS!

Natty Lifting is COPE meant to keep you away from the big leagues. The average "decent physique" takes years to attain, the same physique is 1 starter cycle of 16 weeks away. A good frame looksmatches you higher instantly at an insanely good ROI for you.

View attachment 4867011View attachment 4867012View attachment 4867015

You want these types of looksmatches, have the face, but still can't get it? Look below to find out why.


View attachment 4866987


Which one of the men above do you think would have a higher chance of slaying?


Studies proving that frame/physique/strength are insanely important for attractiveness.

Study/Author	Focus Area	Key Finding
Sell et al. (2017)	Physical Strength	Strength is the #1 predictor of bodily attractiveness.
Pazhoohi et al. (2019)	Shoulder-to-Hip Ratio	High SHR (broad shoulders) = higher attractiveness.
Dixson et al. (2010)	Cross-Cultural Body Shape	V-taper is preferred across Western and non-Western cultures.
Maisey et al. (1999)	Waist-to-Chest Ratio	WCR is the most important component of male attractiveness.
Provost et al. (2008)	Mating Strategy	Women seeking short-term mates show a higher preference for muscularity.
Hönekopp et al. (2007)	Physical Fitness	Women can accurately "smell" and "see" fitness and prefer it.
Tognetti et al. (2013)	Formidability	Muscularity signals the ability to protect and provide resources.

And yeah I have the sources too.

Here are the direct links to the research papers and academic summaries regarding male muscularity, frame, and attractiveness:

Spoiler: Sources

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5745404/
(Sell, Lukazsweski, & Townsley, 2017: The dominant role of physical strength in male attractiveness)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10480816/
(Frederick & Haselton, 2007: Men’s Bodily Attractiveness: Muscles as Fitness Indicators)
https://www.researchgate.net/public...eterminants_of_Sexual_Attractiveness_to_Women
(Dixson et al., 2003: Preference for mesomorphic/muscular somatotypes and V-taper)
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40750-023-00212-3
(Pazhoohi, Garza, & Kingstone, 2023: Sexual Selection and the Male Shoulder-to-Hip Ratio)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24958664/
(Coy & Green, 2014: Why low waist-to-chest ratio is attractive)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1634963/
(Fan et al., 2005: Visual perception of male body attractiveness and volume height index)
https://www.ehbonline.org/article/S1090-5138(09)00032-4/fulltext
(Lassek & Gaulin, 2009: Costs and benefits of fat-free muscle mass in men)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10359341/
(Maisey et al., 1999: Characteristics of male attractiveness: WHR vs. WCR)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10480609/
(Braun & Bryan, 2006: Female Preferences for Strong Men)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/225078516_Geometric_morphometrics_of_male_bodies_and_the_perception_of_physical_attractiveness
(Windhager et al., 2011: Broad shoulders as a signal of fitness)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4685550/
(Hönekopp et al., 2007: Physical fitness and attractiveness)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232497645_Waist-to-hip_ratio_and_attractiveness_of_the_male_body
(Henss, 2000: Attractiveness of the V-shaped male body)
https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/ecology-and-evolution/articles/10.3389/fevo.2022.860797/full
(Durkee et al., 2019: Physical strength as a cue for high status and attractiveness)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27488414/
(Dixson et al., 2016: Interaction of muscularity and facial hair in long-term and short-term attraction)
https://www.ehbonline.org/article/S1090-5138(10)00015-8/fulltext
(Puts, 2010: Sexual selection and the evolution of male formidability)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6328455/
(Little et al., 2011: Body composition effects on masculinity and attractiveness)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15705545/
(Fan et al., 2005: 3D scanning study on male body proportions)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/233821035_The_waist-to-chest_ratio_and_not_the_waist-to-hip_ratio_is_the_primary_determinant_of_male_body_attractiveness
(Swami & Tovée, 2005: WCR as the primary driver of male attractiveness)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/26257218_Male_attractiveness_Physical_strength_and_reproductive_success
(Goulding et al., 2010: Strength as a predictor of reproductive success)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23569234/
(Mautz et al., 2013: Interaction of height, shoulder-to-hip ratio, and attractiveness)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3130383/
(Price et al., 2012: Bodily attractiveness and physical fitness in men)

Still coping? Here's an entire thread on it: https://looksmax.org/threads/gymcel...body-the-same-way-we-do-its-100-legit.256601/

Not coping? Let's get into it then.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________



I've decided to make this thread on a whim and ended up making it for my 1000th post special. The current BOTB "First Steroid Cycle" (https://looksmax.org/threads/first-steroid-cycle.10771/) is a good thread with some good information, however it was posted in 2019. We have a very large amount of information and optimization that needs to be put forward and known by the general public, including some critical safety information that the original thread simply glosses over. This creates the illusion of a completely safe reality with steroids which is completely untrue, while steroids are possibly the most fearmongered substance in existence, and aren't even 1/5th of as dangerous as the media makes them out to be, their high profile on this site creates the inaccurate polarized opinion that they are "completely safe with no risks." This is not the case. All you have to to search up is "balding" and "steroid" together in the search bar to see the mass amount of users that are either worried or suffering the real risk of balding from AAS. This is a very real risk with all steroids, there is no such thing as a hair safe steroid maybe besides Anavar which you don't really run by itself ever. Balding is a terrible loss from steroids, if not recovered instantly, it's about a $4000 to $15000 loss since you have to get a hair transplant and that money could've been used for actual hardmaxxing, so it's a massive loss. This isn't even accounting for other, actual health risks such as liver and heart damage.


However this is not a fearmongering thread, nearly 100% of all risks from steroids can be mitigated and in some cases, vaporized with other supplements. A fair warning, this does mean you have to spend more. There is no such thing as a "cheap cycle." Users see that Test E costs $40 and immediately assume they can use their birthday money for a cycle. This is not the case at all. With no further ado, let's get straight into it.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Your first steroid cycle should consist of a 16 week bulk cycle running 500mg Testosterone Enanthate. I will quote the original cycle thread on why 500mg Test is superior to 250mg which is considered a "safe beginner cycle" by a lot of users.


So what will we need for the cycle?

We will be using 2 main compounds, unlike general consensus, it is a better idea to use Testosterone with HGH due to its significant synergetic benefits, and good risk to benefit ratio (HGH is given to children.)

1. 4x 10ml vials of Testosterone Enanthate dosed at 250mg/ml (Goes over 16 weeks, who cares it's always nice to have some extra. Test is cheap anyways. Only buy 3 if money is really that tight, although if you're struggling with an extra $15, perhaps you shouldn't be doing a cycle.)
2. HGH - Commonly sold in 20 vials x 36iu which is 720 iu HGH in total. This will be more than enough for you to run 4 - 8 iu everyday from the start to the end of your cycle.

But wait? Aren't you supposed to run a Test only cycle for your first cycle? Why run HGH? Well to answer this, we need to look into what Testosterone and HGH do for bodybuilding by themselves.

What is Testosterone Enanthate?

Testosterone enanthate is a long-acting, injectable androgen ester used medically to treat low testosterone (hypogonadism). In bodybuilding, it is used to significantly increase protein synthesis, accelerating muscle growth, strength, and recovery rates. It acts as a slow-release compound, typically administered every 5 to 7 days.

What is Human Growth Hormone (HGH)?

Human Growth Hormone (HGH), or somatotropin, is a natural hormone produced by the pituitary gland that regulates growth, metabolism, and cell repair. In bodybuilding, HGH primarily functions as a metabolic and cellular repair agent by stimulating the liver to release IGF-1, which promotes the growth of bone, cartilage, and new muscle tissue (hyperplasia). Beyond structural growth, it acts as a potent fat-burner by mobilizing stored fatty acids to be used for energy while improving overall recovery and systemic healing.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

So now that we have an idea on what these two are, we have to figure out, why on earth would you want to run these two together? Well it comes down to risk management and the actual results you get when you combine these two.

Reason 1: Synergy

I mentioned this before, but what does it mean? Well HGH and Testosterone are part of the 3 main pathways of anabolism, being Testosterone, HGH, and Insulin (although Insulin is a dangerous compound that could kill you and for those reasons, should be avoided until you are very well versed in AAS and have done multiple cycles, and if you're reading this to learn more, you aren't. Credits to Sadist for this information, you can find his thread on insulin here if you're interested.)

How do they synergize?

1. IGF-1

The primary way these two synergize is through the regulation of Insulin-like Growth Factor 1 (IGF-1).

HGH: When you inject HGH, the liver converts much of it into IGF-1, which is the primary driver of systemic tissue growth and cellular repair.
Testosterone: Testosterone also increases IGF-1 levels, but more importantly, it increases the sensitivity of the androgen receptors and enhances the local expression of IGF-1 within the muscle tissue itself.
Result: You get a massive spike in both circulating and localized IGF-1, leading to significantly more protein synthesis than either compound could achieve alone.

2. Complementary Nitrogen Retention​

Muscle growth is essentially a game of maintaining a positive nitrogen balance.

Testosterone is a causes Nitrogen Retention. It signals the muscle cells to hold onto more nitrogen, which is a fundamental building block of protein.
HGH focuses on Hyperplasia and Hypertrophy. While testosterone makes existing muscle fibers larger (hypertrophy), HGH is believed to potentially aid in the creation of new muscle cells (hyperplasia) and strengthening the collagen structures (tendons/ligaments) that support those muscles.

3. Nutrient Partitioning & Metabolic Efficiency​

This is where you actually feel the synergy. They work together to decide where your calories go.

Fat Loss: HGH is highly lipolytic, meaning it mobilizes body fat to be used as energy.
Muscle Sparing: Testosterone prevents the breakdown of muscle (anticatabolism) while you are in a fat-burning state.
Result: This duo allows for "recomposition," the ability to lose body fat while simultaneously gaining or maintaining significant lean mass, as the body uses the liberated fat stores to fuel the protein synthesis triggered by the testosterone.

4. Structural Support ​

High levels of testosterone can increase strength so rapidly that your tendons and ligaments can't keep up, leading to tears.

HGH increases collagen synthesis. It strengthens the connective tissues and bone density. (This also helps your skin.)
By adding HGH to a Test cycle, you are essentially allowing your body to handle the power provided by the testosterone.

Reason 2: ROI (Return On Investment)

1. Breaking the Myostatin Barrier​

On a Testosterone cycle, the body eventually fights back by increasing Myostatin, a protein that acts to stop muscle growth. HGH (via IGF-1) has been shown to help suppress Myostatin levels. By running both, you are effectively allowing for growth that would otherwise plateau.

2. Quality of Gains ​

A "Test-only" cycle often results in significant weight gain, but a large portion of that is water and glycogen.

Testosterone Only: High strength, but often accompanied by a "puffy" look and increased body fat if calories are high.
Testosterone + HGH: Because HGH increases lipolysis (fat mobilization), it forces the body to use fat for fuel. This means that for every 10 lbs gained on the scale, a much higher percentage is actual contractile muscle tissue rather than water or fat.

3. Accelerated Recovery​

In any cycle, the "cost" is the wear and tear on your joints and the time it takes to recover.

Testosterone Only: Increases strength faster than tendons can adapt, often leading to injuries that stall progress.
Testosterone + HGH: HGH significantly increases collagen synthesis. This heals micro-tears in connective tissue in real-time. The ROI here is longevity; you can train harder, more frequently, and for more weeks at a time without your body breaking down.

4. Maximizing the Risk-to-Reward Ratio​

Using performance-enhancing drugs is a gamble with your long-term health; you are putting strain on your cardiovascular system, kidneys, and endocrine health regardless of which compounds you choose.

Underwhelming Results: Running a Testosterone cycle alone still carries the same risks, but you are limited by the body’s natural plateaus and the sloppy gains of water and fat. Adding HGH to the cycle allows you to achieve a level of cellular change (hyperplasia) and body composition refinement that Testosterone simply cannot provide on its own.

If you are already willing to pay the biological tax of a cycle, spending the extra money on HGH ensures you aren't just getting a temporary, bloated look, but are instead squeezing every possible ounce of permanent tissue growth and recovery out of the risk you're taking.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Now that we have gotten the "why" out of the way, let's get into the "how."

What you will need for injections:

Testosterone:
- 30 syringes with needles gauge 25 or 27. Must be at least 1 cc. Needles should be 1" long for glute injection and 0.5" for quads. If you are fat then add an extra half inch to each.
- Alcohol wipes.

HGH:
- Insulin Syringes: Choose 29–31 gauge, 0.5 ml or 1 ml syringes with short 8mm needles.
- Alcohol Swabs: For disinfecting the vial tops and your skin.
- Bacteriostatic Water (BAC Water): To mix your HGH.
- Sharps Container: For safe disposal of used needles.

How to inject Testosterone (via .net)

Wipe the lid of the vial with an alcohol wipe. Pull back the syringe to the amount you intend to draw up (eg. 1 mL) and stick the needle in the vial. Shoot that much air into the vial and draw up the amount you want. You will get air as well. Just keep shooting the air back into the vial and drawing back until you actually have the right amount of roids.

Wipe a spot on your ass with alcohol. You can inject into the muscle (IM or intramuscular) or into the fat (SC or subcutaneous). Most people do IM. If you're doing that, you need to inject into safe spots to not hit a nerve. In the ass, that's the upper outer aspect:
View attachment 4866517

How to inject HGH

Gently pinch a small fold of skin at your chosen injection site (preferably the abdomen.) Hold the syringe at a 45-degree angle and stick the needle into the skin. Push the plunger down slowly to inject the HGH. Once you're done, pull the needle out and use a cotton swab to apply light pressure to the spot if you need to.
View attachment 4866564

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Now it is time to go through all the things you will need to nuke all the side effects from steroids. Everything I mention below is a must buy or else you will botch your cycle, your health, and yourself.

Side Effect	Cause	What Supplement To Use
Gyno / Bloat	Estrogen	Aromatase Inhibitors
Hair Loss	DHT	3mg Dutasteride & RU58841 5%
Acne	DHT	Accutane 10-40mg (Isotretinoin)
Shrunken Balls	Shut down of HPTA	HCG (100 - 250 IU every other day)
Testosterone Suppression	Exogenous Testosterone	Nolvadex 20mg daily (2 weeks after your last injection

I will go over each in more detail below:

1. Aromatase Inhibitors

Why do you need an aromatase inhibitor (AI)?

Your body as a man needs estrogen to function. Your body makes estrogen by converting testosterone via the aromatase enzyme. When you start taking excess testosterone, your body starts creating more estrogen via aromatizing to reach homeostasis. Excess estrogen can result in gyno, extreme bloat, being highly emotional and other unpleasant side effects. For this reason, we take an aromatase inhibitor to keep estrogen levels lower. However, it is important not to take to much AI because low estrogen also has bad side effects and inhibits your ability to build muscle.

Arimidex and Aromasin are the two best choices for aromatase inhibitors for most people. 1mg of Arimidex has similar anti-estrogen effects as 25mg of Aromasin. However some people take Letrozole as well so I will also include that below.

Property	Anastrozole (Arimidex)	Letrozole (Femara)	Exemestane (Aromasin)
Type	Non-steroidal, reversible	Non-steroidal, reversible	Steroidal, irreversible
Estrogen Suppression	~50–70% (dose dependent)	~80–98% (very potent)	~65–85% (irreversible)
Half-Life	~48 hrs	~40–60 hrs	~24–27 hrs
Rebound Risk	Medium if stopped fast	High (sharp increase)	Low (enzyme destroyed)
Titration Precision	High (easy microdose)	Moderate to difficult	Low (fixed dose tabs)
Bone Impact	Mild (long-term)	moderate to severe	moderate
Lipid impact	Mild, but could affect HDL	Moderate to severe	moderate
Onset of Suppression	~24 hours	Within hours	~24 hours (stronger than Anastrozole)
Peak Suppression	~2–4 days	~2–3 days	~2–3 days

PRICES

Source	Anastrozole Price (1mg)	Letrozole Price (2.5mg)	Exemestane Price (25mg)
Pharma (Brand)	$5–$10	$8–$15	$10–$20
Generic (Indian)	$0.50–$1.50	$1–$3	$1–$4
UGL (Chinese)	$0.20–$0.50	$0.30–$1	$0.30–$1

SIDE EFFECTS

Side Effect	Anastrozole (Arimidex)	Letrozole (Femera)	Exemestane (Aromasin)
Hot flashes	Common	Common	Common
Joint pain	Moderate	Moderate to severe	Mild to moderate
Fatigue	Mild to moderate	Moderate	Mild to moderate
Bone density loss	Mild (long-term use)	More severe if misused	Moderate (monitor needed)
Nausea	Mild	Mild to moderate	Mild
Mood changes	Possible	Possible	Possible
Headache	Occasionally	Occasionally	Occasionally
Increased cholesterol	Mild	Moderate to severe	Moderate
Muscle pain	Mild	Moderate	Mild

^ Cannot find the thread but I've had this information saved from a heightmaxxing thread (cope.)

I personally recommend Aromasin, although it is more expensive and harsher on hair. We will go over hair next.

2. Hair Loss

RU58841:

RU58841 acts as a topical androgen receptor antagonist that competes directly with dihydrotestosterone (DHT) for binding sites on hair follicles. By occupying these receptors, it prevents DHT from triggering the follicle miniaturization process without significantly lowering systemic hormone levels in the rest of the body. The 5% variant of this is preferred.

Dutasteride:

Dutasteride is a potent 5-alpha reductase inhibitor that works by blocking both Type I and Type II enzymes, which are responsible for converting testosterone into dihydrotestosterone (DHT). By reducing systemic and scalp DHT levels by up to 90% or more, it effectively halts the miniaturization of hair follicles and creates an environment where regrowth is possible. Take 2.5 - 3mg minimum.

View attachment 4866791
(Pic courtesy of SlayerJonas)

3. Acne

Accutane (Isotretinoin):

Accutane (Isotretinoin) addresses acne at the source by permanently shrinking the sebaceous glands and drastically reducing the amount of oil (sebum) they produce. This prevents pores from clogging and creates an inhospitable environment for acne-causing bacteria, often leading to long-term or permanent remission of severe breakouts.


4. Shrunken Balls

HCG:

Instead of waiting until the end to fix atrophy, you should run HCG throughout your entire cycle to prevent your testicles from shrinking in the first place. Use a dose of 250iu every other day to provide a constant signal to the Leydig cells, keeping them functional and full-sized so that your eventual recovery is much faster and more reliable.

Now there is alot of misinformation going around when it comes to this stuff. It artificially gets your balls to start making testosterone, it does not restart your whole complex natural system of different glands and hormones communicating with each other to make your balls produce testosterone (it is known as the HTPA or hypothalamic–pituitary–gonadal axis). That is why it should not be used during PCT. People who use this as their PCT feel great while they are using it but as soon as they come off will have low T because they never restarted HTPA. (via jefferson)

5. Testosterone Suppression

PCT - Nolvadex:

On Testosterone Enanthate, you want to wait 2 weeks after your last injection to let the drug clear before you start your PCT. For a 12-15 week cycle, the standard is a 6 week PCT taking 20mg of Nolvadex daily.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Debunking Common Natty Copes:

1. "They still have to work just as hard."​

Cope: "Steroids only work if you train like a beast; otherwise, they do nothing."
Reality: Research (notably the 1996 Bhasin study) showed that men taking 600mg of Test-E who did not work out gained more lean muscle mass than natural men who did work out. While gear makes hard work more effective, it also makes laziness more productive than natural effort.

2. "It's all water weight."​

Cope: "They just look big because they’re bloated; it’ll all disappear once they go off."
Reality: While certain compounds (like Dbol) cause water retention, steroids primarily drive myofibrillar hypertrophy (actual muscle fiber growth). Furthermore, HGH and certain steroids can cause hyperplasia, the splitting of muscle cells, creating permanent structural changes that a natural lifter can never achieve.

3. "The 'Natty Limit' is higher than people think."​

Cope: If I just train for 20 years and eat perfectly, I can look like [insert fake-natty influencer].
Reality: The Fat-Free Mass Index (FFMI) is a reliable ceiling. Most humans naturally top out at an FFMI of around 25. Influencers who are 220lbs and 8% body fat are statistically impossible to achieve without exogenous hormones.

4. "I’d rather have 'real' muscle."​

Cope: "Natural muscle is denser and stays better than "fake" steroid muscle."
Reality: Muscle tissue is muscle tissue. The contractile proteins (actin and myosin) are the same. While an enhanced lifter will lose the "super-physiological" fullness when they come off, they will still retain a higher baseline of muscle than they ever could have reached naturally due to increased myonuclei count.

5. "Steroids will give you 'Roid Rage' and turn you into a monster."​

Cope: "Every gear user is a ticking time bomb of aggression."
Reality: While certain compounds (like Trenbolone) can increase irritability, "Roid Rage" is largely a myth for those with stable mental health. Most users on a sensible Test/HGH cycle report feeling better, more confident, and more stable due to optimized hormone levels.

6. "They have no discipline/took the easy way out."​

Cope: "Going to the gym naturally is "harder" and shows more character."
Reality: Enhanced lifters often train harder and longer because their recovery allows for it. Being "natural" is often a choice of health and longevity, but it doesn't automatically grant a "discipline" trophy. Taking 500mg of Test doesn't make the 405lb squat any lighter.

7. "Their organs are going to explode tomorrow."​

Cope: "Anyone on gear is going to die by age 40."
Reality: While the risks are real (left ventricular hypertrophy, kidney strain), many users mitigate these through frequent blood work, ancillary drugs (like HCG and AI), and cruising on TRT doses rather than constant blasting. It’s a calculated risk, not a guaranteed death sentence.

8. "It’s all about the 'Lighting and Angles'."​

Cope: "That guy only looks big because of the gym mirrors and a pump."
Reality: No amount of lighting can fake the 3D "cannonball" delts and "traps-to-ears" look that comes from a high density of androgen receptors in the upper body, features that are the "dead giveaway" of an enhanced physique.

9. "I'll catch up to them eventually."​

Cope: "If I stay natty for 10 years, I'll be bigger than the guy who did a 16-week cycle."
Reality: A single, well-executed cycle can put more lean mass on a frame than 3 - 5 years of perfect natural lifting. The "gap" doesn't close, it widens every year the other person stays enhanced.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________

TL;DR:
Steroid downsides: Preventable minor stuff.
The Upsides:
View attachment 4867007View attachment 4867038

Ascend TODAY.

Your perfect life awaits you, your hot wife, your high paying job, the admiration from everyone you meet no matter what, your future kid's respect for you. All of this may be few cycles away, will you dedicate your life this one time? Or will you let the opportunity pass and some other man do it and live your dream life while you rot away?

The world is yours.

Tagging High Iq Users: @SlayerJonas @Chad @Zagro @Sadist @Sayori how'd I do? Thread was a little rushed due to Jonas' current pinned thread being posted right as I was working on mine although.

This was my 1000th post special, hope you enjoyed!

im surprised that you didnt mention the correlation between hgh and blood glucose tbh. i was on gh for like a month and my insulin 3x'd while my blood glucose is now permanently 20% higher than before (in the red levels so really fucked up) even several months off hgh

 

[stigmaboy]

lmao dude asking about steroid cycles and female perception like it's not already over for 99% of us.

your face will probably get worse too, think acne, water retention, maybe some gyno if you're unlucky. frame might get bigger tho if you don't have a heart attack first.

 

[Jgns]

have u seen any results boyo ? debating buying ru and dut as well, in case my current cycle rapes my hairline

going through the dut shed rn its pretty brutal, had to hop off ru for a bit tho cause of logistical reasons but yeah hopping back on it tmr. I upped my dose from 0.5 dut to 2.5 dut but when I was on 0.5 my hairline was insanely thick and fire asf. get on them but itll take 6 months atleast obv

 

[gymcelled]

going through the dut shed rn its pretty brutal, had to hop off ru for a bit tho cause of logistical reasons but yeah hopping back on it tmr. I upped my dose from 0.5 dut to 2.5 dut but when I was on 0.5 my hairline was insanely thick and fire asf. get on them but itll take 6 months atleast obv

any mental sides? id like to not kill myself just cuz i try keeping my hair on cycle

 

[drank]

Are you a framelet?

View attachment 4865740

Do you want women swarming you like this wherever you go?
View attachment 4865708View attachment 4865712


Do you want to framemog the ASU Frat Leader?

View attachment 4865716

Do you want to be admired just for existing by your friends, peers, girls, and even strangers?

Well look no further, this thread will be your introduction into being born again as a slayer, through the means of framemaxxing with PEDS!

Natty Lifting is COPE meant to keep you away from the big leagues. The average "decent physique" takes years to attain, the same physique is 1 starter cycle of 16 weeks away. A good frame looksmatches you higher instantly at an insanely good ROI for you.

View attachment 4867011View attachment 4867012View attachment 4867015

You want these types of looksmatches, have the face, but still can't get it? Look below to find out why.


View attachment 4866987


Which one of the men above do you think would have a higher chance of slaying?


Studies proving that frame/physique/strength are insanely important for attractiveness.

Study/Author	Focus Area	Key Finding
Sell et al. (2017)	Physical Strength	Strength is the #1 predictor of bodily attractiveness.
Pazhoohi et al. (2019)	Shoulder-to-Hip Ratio	High SHR (broad shoulders) = higher attractiveness.
Dixson et al. (2010)	Cross-Cultural Body Shape	V-taper is preferred across Western and non-Western cultures.
Maisey et al. (1999)	Waist-to-Chest Ratio	WCR is the most important component of male attractiveness.
Provost et al. (2008)	Mating Strategy	Women seeking short-term mates show a higher preference for muscularity.
Hönekopp et al. (2007)	Physical Fitness	Women can accurately "smell" and "see" fitness and prefer it.
Tognetti et al. (2013)	Formidability	Muscularity signals the ability to protect and provide resources.

And yeah I have the sources too.

Here are the direct links to the research papers and academic summaries regarding male muscularity, frame, and attractiveness:

Spoiler: Sources

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5745404/
(Sell, Lukazsweski, & Townsley, 2017: The dominant role of physical strength in male attractiveness)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10480816/
(Frederick & Haselton, 2007: Men’s Bodily Attractiveness: Muscles as Fitness Indicators)
https://www.researchgate.net/public...eterminants_of_Sexual_Attractiveness_to_Women
(Dixson et al., 2003: Preference for mesomorphic/muscular somatotypes and V-taper)
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40750-023-00212-3
(Pazhoohi, Garza, & Kingstone, 2023: Sexual Selection and the Male Shoulder-to-Hip Ratio)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24958664/
(Coy & Green, 2014: Why low waist-to-chest ratio is attractive)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1634963/
(Fan et al., 2005: Visual perception of male body attractiveness and volume height index)
https://www.ehbonline.org/article/S1090-5138(09)00032-4/fulltext
(Lassek & Gaulin, 2009: Costs and benefits of fat-free muscle mass in men)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10359341/
(Maisey et al., 1999: Characteristics of male attractiveness: WHR vs. WCR)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10480609/
(Braun & Bryan, 2006: Female Preferences for Strong Men)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/225078516_Geometric_morphometrics_of_male_bodies_and_the_perception_of_physical_attractiveness
(Windhager et al., 2011: Broad shoulders as a signal of fitness)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4685550/
(Hönekopp et al., 2007: Physical fitness and attractiveness)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232497645_Waist-to-hip_ratio_and_attractiveness_of_the_male_body
(Henss, 2000: Attractiveness of the V-shaped male body)
https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/ecology-and-evolution/articles/10.3389/fevo.2022.860797/full
(Durkee et al., 2019: Physical strength as a cue for high status and attractiveness)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27488414/
(Dixson et al., 2016: Interaction of muscularity and facial hair in long-term and short-term attraction)
https://www.ehbonline.org/article/S1090-5138(10)00015-8/fulltext
(Puts, 2010: Sexual selection and the evolution of male formidability)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6328455/
(Little et al., 2011: Body composition effects on masculinity and attractiveness)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15705545/
(Fan et al., 2005: 3D scanning study on male body proportions)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/233821035_The_waist-to-chest_ratio_and_not_the_waist-to-hip_ratio_is_the_primary_determinant_of_male_body_attractiveness
(Swami & Tovée, 2005: WCR as the primary driver of male attractiveness)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/26257218_Male_attractiveness_Physical_strength_and_reproductive_success
(Goulding et al., 2010: Strength as a predictor of reproductive success)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23569234/
(Mautz et al., 2013: Interaction of height, shoulder-to-hip ratio, and attractiveness)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3130383/
(Price et al., 2012: Bodily attractiveness and physical fitness in men)

Still coping? Here's an entire thread on it: https://looksmax.org/threads/gymcel...body-the-same-way-we-do-its-100-legit.256601/

Not coping? Let's get into it then.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________



I've decided to make this thread on a whim and ended up making it for my 1000th post special. The current BOTB "First Steroid Cycle" (https://looksmax.org/threads/first-steroid-cycle.10771/) is a good thread with some good information, however it was posted in 2019. We have a very large amount of information and optimization that needs to be put forward and known by the general public, including some critical safety information that the original thread simply glosses over. This creates the illusion of a completely safe reality with steroids which is completely untrue, while steroids are possibly the most fearmongered substance in existence, and aren't even 1/5th of as dangerous as the media makes them out to be, their high profile on this site creates the inaccurate polarized opinion that they are "completely safe with no risks." This is not the case. All you have to to search up is "balding" and "steroid" together in the search bar to see the mass amount of users that are either worried or suffering the real risk of balding from AAS. This is a very real risk with all steroids, there is no such thing as a hair safe steroid maybe besides Anavar which you don't really run by itself ever. Balding is a terrible loss from steroids, if not recovered instantly, it's about a $4000 to $15000 loss since you have to get a hair transplant and that money could've been used for actual hardmaxxing, so it's a massive loss. This isn't even accounting for other, actual health risks such as liver and heart damage.


However this is not a fearmongering thread, nearly 100% of all risks from steroids can be mitigated and in some cases, vaporized with other supplements. A fair warning, this does mean you have to spend more. There is no such thing as a "cheap cycle." Users see that Test E costs $40 and immediately assume they can use their birthday money for a cycle. This is not the case at all. With no further ado, let's get straight into it.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Your first steroid cycle should consist of a 16 week bulk cycle running 500mg Testosterone Enanthate. I will quote the original cycle thread on why 500mg Test is superior to 250mg which is considered a "safe beginner cycle" by a lot of users.


So what will we need for the cycle?

We will be using 2 main compounds, unlike general consensus, it is a better idea to use Testosterone with HGH due to its significant synergetic benefits, and good risk to benefit ratio (HGH is given to children.)

1. 4x 10ml vials of Testosterone Enanthate dosed at 250mg/ml (Goes over 16 weeks, who cares it's always nice to have some extra. Test is cheap anyways. Only buy 3 if money is really that tight, although if you're struggling with an extra $15, perhaps you shouldn't be doing a cycle.)
2. HGH - Commonly sold in 20 vials x 36iu which is 720 iu HGH in total. This will be more than enough for you to run 4 - 8 iu everyday from the start to the end of your cycle.

But wait? Aren't you supposed to run a Test only cycle for your first cycle? Why run HGH? Well to answer this, we need to look into what Testosterone and HGH do for bodybuilding by themselves.

What is Testosterone Enanthate?

Testosterone enanthate is a long-acting, injectable androgen ester used medically to treat low testosterone (hypogonadism). In bodybuilding, it is used to significantly increase protein synthesis, accelerating muscle growth, strength, and recovery rates. It acts as a slow-release compound, typically administered every 5 to 7 days.

What is Human Growth Hormone (HGH)?

Human Growth Hormone (HGH), or somatotropin, is a natural hormone produced by the pituitary gland that regulates growth, metabolism, and cell repair. In bodybuilding, HGH primarily functions as a metabolic and cellular repair agent by stimulating the liver to release IGF-1, which promotes the growth of bone, cartilage, and new muscle tissue (hyperplasia). Beyond structural growth, it acts as a potent fat-burner by mobilizing stored fatty acids to be used for energy while improving overall recovery and systemic healing.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

So now that we have an idea on what these two are, we have to figure out, why on earth would you want to run these two together? Well it comes down to risk management and the actual results you get when you combine these two.

Reason 1: Synergy

I mentioned this before, but what does it mean? Well HGH and Testosterone are part of the 3 main pathways of anabolism, being Testosterone, HGH, and Insulin (although Insulin is a dangerous compound that could kill you and for those reasons, should be avoided until you are very well versed in AAS and have done multiple cycles, and if you're reading this to learn more, you aren't. Credits to Sadist for this information, you can find his thread on insulin here if you're interested.)

How do they synergize?

1. IGF-1

The primary way these two synergize is through the regulation of Insulin-like Growth Factor 1 (IGF-1).

HGH: When you inject HGH, the liver converts much of it into IGF-1, which is the primary driver of systemic tissue growth and cellular repair.
Testosterone: Testosterone also increases IGF-1 levels, but more importantly, it increases the sensitivity of the androgen receptors and enhances the local expression of IGF-1 within the muscle tissue itself.
Result: You get a massive spike in both circulating and localized IGF-1, leading to significantly more protein synthesis than either compound could achieve alone.

2. Complementary Nitrogen Retention​

Muscle growth is essentially a game of maintaining a positive nitrogen balance.

Testosterone is a causes Nitrogen Retention. It signals the muscle cells to hold onto more nitrogen, which is a fundamental building block of protein.
HGH focuses on Hyperplasia and Hypertrophy. While testosterone makes existing muscle fibers larger (hypertrophy), HGH is believed to potentially aid in the creation of new muscle cells (hyperplasia) and strengthening the collagen structures (tendons/ligaments) that support those muscles.

3. Nutrient Partitioning & Metabolic Efficiency​

This is where you actually feel the synergy. They work together to decide where your calories go.

Fat Loss: HGH is highly lipolytic, meaning it mobilizes body fat to be used as energy.
Muscle Sparing: Testosterone prevents the breakdown of muscle (anticatabolism) while you are in a fat-burning state.
Result: This duo allows for "recomposition," the ability to lose body fat while simultaneously gaining or maintaining significant lean mass, as the body uses the liberated fat stores to fuel the protein synthesis triggered by the testosterone.

4. Structural Support ​

High levels of testosterone can increase strength so rapidly that your tendons and ligaments can't keep up, leading to tears.

HGH increases collagen synthesis. It strengthens the connective tissues and bone density. (This also helps your skin.)
By adding HGH to a Test cycle, you are essentially allowing your body to handle the power provided by the testosterone.

Reason 2: ROI (Return On Investment)

1. Breaking the Myostatin Barrier​

On a Testosterone cycle, the body eventually fights back by increasing Myostatin, a protein that acts to stop muscle growth. HGH (via IGF-1) has been shown to help suppress Myostatin levels. By running both, you are effectively allowing for growth that would otherwise plateau.

2. Quality of Gains ​

A "Test-only" cycle often results in significant weight gain, but a large portion of that is water and glycogen.

Testosterone Only: High strength, but often accompanied by a "puffy" look and increased body fat if calories are high.
Testosterone + HGH: Because HGH increases lipolysis (fat mobilization), it forces the body to use fat for fuel. This means that for every 10 lbs gained on the scale, a much higher percentage is actual contractile muscle tissue rather than water or fat.

3. Accelerated Recovery​

In any cycle, the "cost" is the wear and tear on your joints and the time it takes to recover.

Testosterone Only: Increases strength faster than tendons can adapt, often leading to injuries that stall progress.
Testosterone + HGH: HGH significantly increases collagen synthesis. This heals micro-tears in connective tissue in real-time. The ROI here is longevity; you can train harder, more frequently, and for more weeks at a time without your body breaking down.

4. Maximizing the Risk-to-Reward Ratio​

Using performance-enhancing drugs is a gamble with your long-term health; you are putting strain on your cardiovascular system, kidneys, and endocrine health regardless of which compounds you choose.

Underwhelming Results: Running a Testosterone cycle alone still carries the same risks, but you are limited by the body’s natural plateaus and the sloppy gains of water and fat. Adding HGH to the cycle allows you to achieve a level of cellular change (hyperplasia) and body composition refinement that Testosterone simply cannot provide on its own.

If you are already willing to pay the biological tax of a cycle, spending the extra money on HGH ensures you aren't just getting a temporary, bloated look, but are instead squeezing every possible ounce of permanent tissue growth and recovery out of the risk you're taking.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Now that we have gotten the "why" out of the way, let's get into the "how."

What you will need for injections:

Testosterone:
- 30 syringes with needles gauge 25 or 27. Must be at least 1 cc. Needles should be 1" long for glute injection and 0.5" for quads. If you are fat then add an extra half inch to each.
- Alcohol wipes.

HGH:
- Insulin Syringes: Choose 29–31 gauge, 0.5 ml or 1 ml syringes with short 8mm needles.
- Alcohol Swabs: For disinfecting the vial tops and your skin.
- Bacteriostatic Water (BAC Water): To mix your HGH.
- Sharps Container: For safe disposal of used needles.

How to inject Testosterone (via .net)

Wipe the lid of the vial with an alcohol wipe. Pull back the syringe to the amount you intend to draw up (eg. 1 mL) and stick the needle in the vial. Shoot that much air into the vial and draw up the amount you want. You will get air as well. Just keep shooting the air back into the vial and drawing back until you actually have the right amount of roids.

Wipe a spot on your ass with alcohol. You can inject into the muscle (IM or intramuscular) or into the fat (SC or subcutaneous). Most people do IM. If you're doing that, you need to inject into safe spots to not hit a nerve. In the ass, that's the upper outer aspect:
View attachment 4866517

How to inject HGH

Gently pinch a small fold of skin at your chosen injection site (preferably the abdomen.) Hold the syringe at a 45-degree angle and stick the needle into the skin. Push the plunger down slowly to inject the HGH. Once you're done, pull the needle out and use a cotton swab to apply light pressure to the spot if you need to.
View attachment 4866564

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Now it is time to go through all the things you will need to nuke all the side effects from steroids. Everything I mention below is a must buy or else you will botch your cycle, your health, and yourself.

Side Effect	Cause	What Supplement To Use
Gyno / Bloat	Estrogen	Aromatase Inhibitors
Hair Loss	DHT	3mg Dutasteride & RU58841 5%
Acne	DHT	Accutane 10-40mg (Isotretinoin)
Shrunken Balls	Shut down of HPTA	HCG (100 - 250 IU every other day)
Testosterone Suppression	Exogenous Testosterone	Nolvadex 20mg daily (2 weeks after your last injection

I will go over each in more detail below:

1. Aromatase Inhibitors

Why do you need an aromatase inhibitor (AI)?

Your body as a man needs estrogen to function. Your body makes estrogen by converting testosterone via the aromatase enzyme. When you start taking excess testosterone, your body starts creating more estrogen via aromatizing to reach homeostasis. Excess estrogen can result in gyno, extreme bloat, being highly emotional and other unpleasant side effects. For this reason, we take an aromatase inhibitor to keep estrogen levels lower. However, it is important not to take to much AI because low estrogen also has bad side effects and inhibits your ability to build muscle.

Arimidex and Aromasin are the two best choices for aromatase inhibitors for most people. 1mg of Arimidex has similar anti-estrogen effects as 25mg of Aromasin. However some people take Letrozole as well so I will also include that below.

Property	Anastrozole (Arimidex)	Letrozole (Femara)	Exemestane (Aromasin)
Type	Non-steroidal, reversible	Non-steroidal, reversible	Steroidal, irreversible
Estrogen Suppression	~50–70% (dose dependent)	~80–98% (very potent)	~65–85% (irreversible)
Half-Life	~48 hrs	~40–60 hrs	~24–27 hrs
Rebound Risk	Medium if stopped fast	High (sharp increase)	Low (enzyme destroyed)
Titration Precision	High (easy microdose)	Moderate to difficult	Low (fixed dose tabs)
Bone Impact	Mild (long-term)	moderate to severe	moderate
Lipid impact	Mild, but could affect HDL	Moderate to severe	moderate
Onset of Suppression	~24 hours	Within hours	~24 hours (stronger than Anastrozole)
Peak Suppression	~2–4 days	~2–3 days	~2–3 days

PRICES

Source	Anastrozole Price (1mg)	Letrozole Price (2.5mg)	Exemestane Price (25mg)
Pharma (Brand)	$5–$10	$8–$15	$10–$20
Generic (Indian)	$0.50–$1.50	$1–$3	$1–$4
UGL (Chinese)	$0.20–$0.50	$0.30–$1	$0.30–$1

SIDE EFFECTS

Side Effect	Anastrozole (Arimidex)	Letrozole (Femera)	Exemestane (Aromasin)
Hot flashes	Common	Common	Common
Joint pain	Moderate	Moderate to severe	Mild to moderate
Fatigue	Mild to moderate	Moderate	Mild to moderate
Bone density loss	Mild (long-term use)	More severe if misused	Moderate (monitor needed)
Nausea	Mild	Mild to moderate	Mild
Mood changes	Possible	Possible	Possible
Headache	Occasionally	Occasionally	Occasionally
Increased cholesterol	Mild	Moderate to severe	Moderate
Muscle pain	Mild	Moderate	Mild

^ Cannot find the thread but I've had this information saved from a heightmaxxing thread (cope.)

I personally recommend Aromasin, although it is more expensive and harsher on hair. We will go over hair next.

2. Hair Loss

RU58841:

RU58841 acts as a topical androgen receptor antagonist that competes directly with dihydrotestosterone (DHT) for binding sites on hair follicles. By occupying these receptors, it prevents DHT from triggering the follicle miniaturization process without significantly lowering systemic hormone levels in the rest of the body. The 5% variant of this is preferred.

Dutasteride:

Dutasteride is a potent 5-alpha reductase inhibitor that works by blocking both Type I and Type II enzymes, which are responsible for converting testosterone into dihydrotestosterone (DHT). By reducing systemic and scalp DHT levels by up to 90% or more, it effectively halts the miniaturization of hair follicles and creates an environment where regrowth is possible. Take 2.5 - 3mg minimum.

View attachment 4866791
(Pic courtesy of SlayerJonas)

3. Acne

Accutane (Isotretinoin):

Accutane (Isotretinoin) addresses acne at the source by permanently shrinking the sebaceous glands and drastically reducing the amount of oil (sebum) they produce. This prevents pores from clogging and creates an inhospitable environment for acne-causing bacteria, often leading to long-term or permanent remission of severe breakouts.


4. Shrunken Balls

HCG:

Instead of waiting until the end to fix atrophy, you should run HCG throughout your entire cycle to prevent your testicles from shrinking in the first place. Use a dose of 250iu every other day to provide a constant signal to the Leydig cells, keeping them functional and full-sized so that your eventual recovery is much faster and more reliable.

Now there is alot of misinformation going around when it comes to this stuff. It artificially gets your balls to start making testosterone, it does not restart your whole complex natural system of different glands and hormones communicating with each other to make your balls produce testosterone (it is known as the HTPA or hypothalamic–pituitary–gonadal axis). That is why it should not be used during PCT. People who use this as their PCT feel great while they are using it but as soon as they come off will have low T because they never restarted HTPA. (via jefferson)

5. Testosterone Suppression

PCT - Nolvadex:

On Testosterone Enanthate, you want to wait 2 weeks after your last injection to let the drug clear before you start your PCT. For a 12-15 week cycle, the standard is a 6 week PCT taking 20mg of Nolvadex daily.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Debunking Common Natty Copes:

1. "They still have to work just as hard."​

Cope: "Steroids only work if you train like a beast; otherwise, they do nothing."
Reality: Research (notably the 1996 Bhasin study) showed that men taking 600mg of Test-E who did not work out gained more lean muscle mass than natural men who did work out. While gear makes hard work more effective, it also makes laziness more productive than natural effort.

2. "It's all water weight."​

Cope: "They just look big because they’re bloated; it’ll all disappear once they go off."
Reality: While certain compounds (like Dbol) cause water retention, steroids primarily drive myofibrillar hypertrophy (actual muscle fiber growth). Furthermore, HGH and certain steroids can cause hyperplasia, the splitting of muscle cells, creating permanent structural changes that a natural lifter can never achieve.

3. "The 'Natty Limit' is higher than people think."​

Cope: If I just train for 20 years and eat perfectly, I can look like [insert fake-natty influencer].
Reality: The Fat-Free Mass Index (FFMI) is a reliable ceiling. Most humans naturally top out at an FFMI of around 25. Influencers who are 220lbs and 8% body fat are statistically impossible to achieve without exogenous hormones.

4. "I’d rather have 'real' muscle."​

Cope: "Natural muscle is denser and stays better than "fake" steroid muscle."
Reality: Muscle tissue is muscle tissue. The contractile proteins (actin and myosin) are the same. While an enhanced lifter will lose the "super-physiological" fullness when they come off, they will still retain a higher baseline of muscle than they ever could have reached naturally due to increased myonuclei count.

5. "Steroids will give you 'Roid Rage' and turn you into a monster."​

Cope: "Every gear user is a ticking time bomb of aggression."
Reality: While certain compounds (like Trenbolone) can increase irritability, "Roid Rage" is largely a myth for those with stable mental health. Most users on a sensible Test/HGH cycle report feeling better, more confident, and more stable due to optimized hormone levels.

6. "They have no discipline/took the easy way out."​

Cope: "Going to the gym naturally is "harder" and shows more character."
Reality: Enhanced lifters often train harder and longer because their recovery allows for it. Being "natural" is often a choice of health and longevity, but it doesn't automatically grant a "discipline" trophy. Taking 500mg of Test doesn't make the 405lb squat any lighter.

7. "Their organs are going to explode tomorrow."​

Cope: "Anyone on gear is going to die by age 40."
Reality: While the risks are real (left ventricular hypertrophy, kidney strain), many users mitigate these through frequent blood work, ancillary drugs (like HCG and AI), and cruising on TRT doses rather than constant blasting. It’s a calculated risk, not a guaranteed death sentence.

8. "It’s all about the 'Lighting and Angles'."​

Cope: "That guy only looks big because of the gym mirrors and a pump."
Reality: No amount of lighting can fake the 3D "cannonball" delts and "traps-to-ears" look that comes from a high density of androgen receptors in the upper body, features that are the "dead giveaway" of an enhanced physique.

9. "I'll catch up to them eventually."​

Cope: "If I stay natty for 10 years, I'll be bigger than the guy who did a 16-week cycle."
Reality: A single, well-executed cycle can put more lean mass on a frame than 3 - 5 years of perfect natural lifting. The "gap" doesn't close, it widens every year the other person stays enhanced.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________

TL;DR:
Steroid downsides: Preventable minor stuff.
The Upsides:
View attachment 4867007View attachment 4867038

Ascend TODAY.

Your perfect life awaits you, your hot wife, your high paying job, the admiration from everyone you meet no matter what, your future kid's respect for you. All of this may be few cycles away, will you dedicate your life this one time? Or will you let the opportunity pass and some other man do it and live your dream life while you rot away?

The world is yours.

Tagging High Iq Users: @SlayerJonas @Chad @Zagro @Sadist @Sayori how'd I do? Thread was a little rushed due to Jonas' current pinned thread being posted right as I was working on mine although.

This was my 1000th post special, hope you enjoyed!

bump

 

[santam]

bump

 

[procencion//]

great thread but a few questions first what is the ideal age to start (as in not young enough to the point of which estrogen suppression would cause severe deterioration) and when you mentioned ai’s what is the difference between letro being irreversible and aromasin is reversible?

 

[Xazzy]

Are you a framelet?

View attachment 4865740

Do you want women swarming you like this wherever you go?
View attachment 4865708View attachment 4865712


Do you want to framemog the ASU Frat Leader?

View attachment 4865716

Do you want to be admired just for existing by your friends, peers, girls, and even strangers?

Well look no further, this thread will be your introduction into being born again as a slayer, through the means of framemaxxing with PEDS!

Natty Lifting is COPE meant to keep you away from the big leagues. The average "decent physique" takes years to attain, the same physique is 1 starter cycle of 16 weeks away. A good frame looksmatches you higher instantly at an insanely good ROI for you.

View attachment 4867011View attachment 4867012View attachment 4867015

You want these types of looksmatches, have the face, but still can't get it? Look below to find out why.


View attachment 4866987


Which one of the men above do you think would have a higher chance of slaying?


Studies proving that frame/physique/strength are insanely important for attractiveness.

Study/Author	Focus Area	Key Finding
Sell et al. (2017)	Physical Strength	Strength is the #1 predictor of bodily attractiveness.
Pazhoohi et al. (2019)	Shoulder-to-Hip Ratio	High SHR (broad shoulders) = higher attractiveness.
Dixson et al. (2010)	Cross-Cultural Body Shape	V-taper is preferred across Western and non-Western cultures.
Maisey et al. (1999)	Waist-to-Chest Ratio	WCR is the most important component of male attractiveness.
Provost et al. (2008)	Mating Strategy	Women seeking short-term mates show a higher preference for muscularity.
Hönekopp et al. (2007)	Physical Fitness	Women can accurately "smell" and "see" fitness and prefer it.
Tognetti et al. (2013)	Formidability	Muscularity signals the ability to protect and provide resources.

And yeah I have the sources too.

Here are the direct links to the research papers and academic summaries regarding male muscularity, frame, and attractiveness:

Spoiler: Sources

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5745404/
(Sell, Lukazsweski, & Townsley, 2017: The dominant role of physical strength in male attractiveness)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10480816/
(Frederick & Haselton, 2007: Men’s Bodily Attractiveness: Muscles as Fitness Indicators)
https://www.researchgate.net/public...eterminants_of_Sexual_Attractiveness_to_Women
(Dixson et al., 2003: Preference for mesomorphic/muscular somatotypes and V-taper)
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40750-023-00212-3
(Pazhoohi, Garza, & Kingstone, 2023: Sexual Selection and the Male Shoulder-to-Hip Ratio)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24958664/
(Coy & Green, 2014: Why low waist-to-chest ratio is attractive)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1634963/
(Fan et al., 2005: Visual perception of male body attractiveness and volume height index)
https://www.ehbonline.org/article/S1090-5138(09)00032-4/fulltext
(Lassek & Gaulin, 2009: Costs and benefits of fat-free muscle mass in men)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10359341/
(Maisey et al., 1999: Characteristics of male attractiveness: WHR vs. WCR)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10480609/
(Braun & Bryan, 2006: Female Preferences for Strong Men)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/225078516_Geometric_morphometrics_of_male_bodies_and_the_perception_of_physical_attractiveness
(Windhager et al., 2011: Broad shoulders as a signal of fitness)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4685550/
(Hönekopp et al., 2007: Physical fitness and attractiveness)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232497645_Waist-to-hip_ratio_and_attractiveness_of_the_male_body
(Henss, 2000: Attractiveness of the V-shaped male body)
https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/ecology-and-evolution/articles/10.3389/fevo.2022.860797/full
(Durkee et al., 2019: Physical strength as a cue for high status and attractiveness)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27488414/
(Dixson et al., 2016: Interaction of muscularity and facial hair in long-term and short-term attraction)
https://www.ehbonline.org/article/S1090-5138(10)00015-8/fulltext
(Puts, 2010: Sexual selection and the evolution of male formidability)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6328455/
(Little et al., 2011: Body composition effects on masculinity and attractiveness)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15705545/
(Fan et al., 2005: 3D scanning study on male body proportions)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/233821035_The_waist-to-chest_ratio_and_not_the_waist-to-hip_ratio_is_the_primary_determinant_of_male_body_attractiveness
(Swami & Tovée, 2005: WCR as the primary driver of male attractiveness)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/26257218_Male_attractiveness_Physical_strength_and_reproductive_success
(Goulding et al., 2010: Strength as a predictor of reproductive success)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23569234/
(Mautz et al., 2013: Interaction of height, shoulder-to-hip ratio, and attractiveness)
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3130383/
(Price et al., 2012: Bodily attractiveness and physical fitness in men)

Still coping? Here's an entire thread on it: https://looksmax.org/threads/gymcel...body-the-same-way-we-do-its-100-legit.256601/

Not coping? Let's get into it then.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________



I've decided to make this thread on a whim and ended up making it for my 1000th post special. The current BOTB "First Steroid Cycle" (https://looksmax.org/threads/first-steroid-cycle.10771/) is a good thread with some good information, however it was posted in 2019. We have a very large amount of information and optimization that needs to be put forward and known by the general public, including some critical safety information that the original thread simply glosses over. This creates the illusion of a completely safe reality with steroids which is completely untrue, while steroids are possibly the most fearmongered substance in existence, and aren't even 1/5th of as dangerous as the media makes them out to be, their high profile on this site creates the inaccurate polarized opinion that they are "completely safe with no risks." This is not the case. All you have to to search up is "balding" and "steroid" together in the search bar to see the mass amount of users that are either worried or suffering the real risk of balding from AAS. This is a very real risk with all steroids, there is no such thing as a hair safe steroid maybe besides Anavar which you don't really run by itself ever. Balding is a terrible loss from steroids, if not recovered instantly, it's about a $4000 to $15000 loss since you have to get a hair transplant and that money could've been used for actual hardmaxxing, so it's a massive loss. This isn't even accounting for other, actual health risks such as liver and heart damage.


However this is not a fearmongering thread, nearly 100% of all risks from steroids can be mitigated and in some cases, vaporized with other supplements. A fair warning, this does mean you have to spend more. There is no such thing as a "cheap cycle." Users see that Test E costs $40 and immediately assume they can use their birthday money for a cycle. This is not the case at all. With no further ado, let's get straight into it.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Your first steroid cycle should consist of a 16 week bulk cycle running 500mg Testosterone Enanthate. I will quote the original cycle thread on why 500mg Test is superior to 250mg which is considered a "safe beginner cycle" by a lot of users.


So what will we need for the cycle?

We will be using 2 main compounds, unlike general consensus, it is a better idea to use Testosterone with HGH due to its significant synergetic benefits, and good risk to benefit ratio (HGH is given to children.)

1. 4x 10ml vials of Testosterone Enanthate dosed at 250mg/ml (Goes over 16 weeks, who cares it's always nice to have some extra. Test is cheap anyways. Only buy 3 if money is really that tight, although if you're struggling with an extra $15, perhaps you shouldn't be doing a cycle.)
2. HGH - Commonly sold in 20 vials x 36iu which is 720 iu HGH in total. This will be more than enough for you to run 4 - 8 iu everyday from the start to the end of your cycle.

But wait? Aren't you supposed to run a Test only cycle for your first cycle? Why run HGH? Well to answer this, we need to look into what Testosterone and HGH do for bodybuilding by themselves.

What is Testosterone Enanthate?

Testosterone enanthate is a long-acting, injectable androgen ester used medically to treat low testosterone (hypogonadism). In bodybuilding, it is used to significantly increase protein synthesis, accelerating muscle growth, strength, and recovery rates. It acts as a slow-release compound, typically administered every 5 to 7 days.

What is Human Growth Hormone (HGH)?

Human Growth Hormone (HGH), or somatotropin, is a natural hormone produced by the pituitary gland that regulates growth, metabolism, and cell repair. In bodybuilding, HGH primarily functions as a metabolic and cellular repair agent by stimulating the liver to release IGF-1, which promotes the growth of bone, cartilage, and new muscle tissue (hyperplasia). Beyond structural growth, it acts as a potent fat-burner by mobilizing stored fatty acids to be used for energy while improving overall recovery and systemic healing.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

So now that we have an idea on what these two are, we have to figure out, why on earth would you want to run these two together? Well it comes down to risk management and the actual results you get when you combine these two.

Reason 1: Synergy

I mentioned this before, but what does it mean? Well HGH and Testosterone are part of the 3 main pathways of anabolism, being Testosterone, HGH, and Insulin (although Insulin is a dangerous compound that could kill you and for those reasons, should be avoided until you are very well versed in AAS and have done multiple cycles, and if you're reading this to learn more, you aren't. Credits to Sadist for this information, you can find his thread on insulin here if you're interested.)

How do they synergize?

1. IGF-1

The primary way these two synergize is through the regulation of Insulin-like Growth Factor 1 (IGF-1).

HGH: When you inject HGH, the liver converts much of it into IGF-1, which is the primary driver of systemic tissue growth and cellular repair.
Testosterone: Testosterone also increases IGF-1 levels, but more importantly, it increases the sensitivity of the androgen receptors and enhances the local expression of IGF-1 within the muscle tissue itself.
Result: You get a massive spike in both circulating and localized IGF-1, leading to significantly more protein synthesis than either compound could achieve alone.

2. Complementary Nitrogen Retention​

Muscle growth is essentially a game of maintaining a positive nitrogen balance.

Testosterone is a causes Nitrogen Retention. It signals the muscle cells to hold onto more nitrogen, which is a fundamental building block of protein.
HGH focuses on Hyperplasia and Hypertrophy. While testosterone makes existing muscle fibers larger (hypertrophy), HGH is believed to potentially aid in the creation of new muscle cells (hyperplasia) and strengthening the collagen structures (tendons/ligaments) that support those muscles.

3. Nutrient Partitioning & Metabolic Efficiency​

This is where you actually feel the synergy. They work together to decide where your calories go.

Fat Loss: HGH is highly lipolytic, meaning it mobilizes body fat to be used as energy.
Muscle Sparing: Testosterone prevents the breakdown of muscle (anticatabolism) while you are in a fat-burning state.
Result: This duo allows for "recomposition," the ability to lose body fat while simultaneously gaining or maintaining significant lean mass, as the body uses the liberated fat stores to fuel the protein synthesis triggered by the testosterone.

4. Structural Support ​

High levels of testosterone can increase strength so rapidly that your tendons and ligaments can't keep up, leading to tears.

HGH increases collagen synthesis. It strengthens the connective tissues and bone density. (This also helps your skin.)
By adding HGH to a Test cycle, you are essentially allowing your body to handle the power provided by the testosterone.

Reason 2: ROI (Return On Investment)

1. Breaking the Myostatin Barrier​

On a Testosterone cycle, the body eventually fights back by increasing Myostatin, a protein that acts to stop muscle growth. HGH (via IGF-1) has been shown to help suppress Myostatin levels. By running both, you are effectively allowing for growth that would otherwise plateau.

2. Quality of Gains ​

A "Test-only" cycle often results in significant weight gain, but a large portion of that is water and glycogen.

Testosterone Only: High strength, but often accompanied by a "puffy" look and increased body fat if calories are high.
Testosterone + HGH: Because HGH increases lipolysis (fat mobilization), it forces the body to use fat for fuel. This means that for every 10 lbs gained on the scale, a much higher percentage is actual contractile muscle tissue rather than water or fat.

3. Accelerated Recovery​

In any cycle, the "cost" is the wear and tear on your joints and the time it takes to recover.

Testosterone Only: Increases strength faster than tendons can adapt, often leading to injuries that stall progress.
Testosterone + HGH: HGH significantly increases collagen synthesis. This heals micro-tears in connective tissue in real-time. The ROI here is longevity; you can train harder, more frequently, and for more weeks at a time without your body breaking down.

4. Maximizing the Risk-to-Reward Ratio​

Using performance-enhancing drugs is a gamble with your long-term health; you are putting strain on your cardiovascular system, kidneys, and endocrine health regardless of which compounds you choose.

Underwhelming Results: Running a Testosterone cycle alone still carries the same risks, but you are limited by the body’s natural plateaus and the sloppy gains of water and fat. Adding HGH to the cycle allows you to achieve a level of cellular change (hyperplasia) and body composition refinement that Testosterone simply cannot provide on its own.

If you are already willing to pay the biological tax of a cycle, spending the extra money on HGH ensures you aren't just getting a temporary, bloated look, but are instead squeezing every possible ounce of permanent tissue growth and recovery out of the risk you're taking.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Now that we have gotten the "why" out of the way, let's get into the "how."

What you will need for injections:

Testosterone:
- 30 syringes with needles gauge 25 or 27. Must be at least 1 cc. Needles should be 1" long for glute injection and 0.5" for quads. If you are fat then add an extra half inch to each.
- Alcohol wipes.

HGH:
- Insulin Syringes: Choose 29–31 gauge, 0.5 ml or 1 ml syringes with short 8mm needles.
- Alcohol Swabs: For disinfecting the vial tops and your skin.
- Bacteriostatic Water (BAC Water): To mix your HGH.
- Sharps Container: For safe disposal of used needles.

How to inject Testosterone (via .net)

Wipe the lid of the vial with an alcohol wipe. Pull back the syringe to the amount you intend to draw up (eg. 1 mL) and stick the needle in the vial. Shoot that much air into the vial and draw up the amount you want. You will get air as well. Just keep shooting the air back into the vial and drawing back until you actually have the right amount of roids.

Wipe a spot on your ass with alcohol. You can inject into the muscle (IM or intramuscular) or into the fat (SC or subcutaneous). Most people do IM. If you're doing that, you need to inject into safe spots to not hit a nerve. In the ass, that's the upper outer aspect:
View attachment 4866517

How to inject HGH

Gently pinch a small fold of skin at your chosen injection site (preferably the abdomen.) Hold the syringe at a 45-degree angle and stick the needle into the skin. Push the plunger down slowly to inject the HGH. Once you're done, pull the needle out and use a cotton swab to apply light pressure to the spot if you need to.
View attachment 4866564

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Now it is time to go through all the things you will need to nuke all the side effects from steroids. Everything I mention below is a must buy or else you will botch your cycle, your health, and yourself.

Side Effect	Cause	What Supplement To Use
Gyno / Bloat	Estrogen	Aromatase Inhibitors
Hair Loss	DHT	3mg Dutasteride & RU58841 5%
Acne	DHT	Accutane 10-40mg (Isotretinoin)
Shrunken Balls	Shut down of HPTA	HCG (100 - 250 IU every other day)
Testosterone Suppression	Exogenous Testosterone	Nolvadex 20mg daily (2 weeks after your last injection

I will go over each in more detail below:

1. Aromatase Inhibitors

Why do you need an aromatase inhibitor (AI)?

Your body as a man needs estrogen to function. Your body makes estrogen by converting testosterone via the aromatase enzyme. When you start taking excess testosterone, your body starts creating more estrogen via aromatizing to reach homeostasis. Excess estrogen can result in gyno, extreme bloat, being highly emotional and other unpleasant side effects. For this reason, we take an aromatase inhibitor to keep estrogen levels lower. However, it is important not to take to much AI because low estrogen also has bad side effects and inhibits your ability to build muscle.

Arimidex and Aromasin are the two best choices for aromatase inhibitors for most people. 1mg of Arimidex has similar anti-estrogen effects as 25mg of Aromasin. However some people take Letrozole as well so I will also include that below.

Property	Anastrozole (Arimidex)	Letrozole (Femara)	Exemestane (Aromasin)
Type	Non-steroidal, reversible	Non-steroidal, reversible	Steroidal, irreversible
Estrogen Suppression	~50–70% (dose dependent)	~80–98% (very potent)	~65–85% (irreversible)
Half-Life	~48 hrs	~40–60 hrs	~24–27 hrs
Rebound Risk	Medium if stopped fast	High (sharp increase)	Low (enzyme destroyed)
Titration Precision	High (easy microdose)	Moderate to difficult	Low (fixed dose tabs)
Bone Impact	Mild (long-term)	moderate to severe	moderate
Lipid impact	Mild, but could affect HDL	Moderate to severe	moderate
Onset of Suppression	~24 hours	Within hours	~24 hours (stronger than Anastrozole)
Peak Suppression	~2–4 days	~2–3 days	~2–3 days

PRICES

Source	Anastrozole Price (1mg)	Letrozole Price (2.5mg)	Exemestane Price (25mg)
Pharma (Brand)	$5–$10	$8–$15	$10–$20
Generic (Indian)	$0.50–$1.50	$1–$3	$1–$4
UGL (Chinese)	$0.20–$0.50	$0.30–$1	$0.30–$1

SIDE EFFECTS

Side Effect	Anastrozole (Arimidex)	Letrozole (Femera)	Exemestane (Aromasin)
Hot flashes	Common	Common	Common
Joint pain	Moderate	Moderate to severe	Mild to moderate
Fatigue	Mild to moderate	Moderate	Mild to moderate
Bone density loss	Mild (long-term use)	More severe if misused	Moderate (monitor needed)
Nausea	Mild	Mild to moderate	Mild
Mood changes	Possible	Possible	Possible
Headache	Occasionally	Occasionally	Occasionally
Increased cholesterol	Mild	Moderate to severe	Moderate
Muscle pain	Mild	Moderate	Mild

^ Cannot find the thread but I've had this information saved from a heightmaxxing thread (cope.)

I personally recommend Aromasin, although it is more expensive and harsher on hair. We will go over hair next.

2. Hair Loss

RU58841:

RU58841 acts as a topical androgen receptor antagonist that competes directly with dihydrotestosterone (DHT) for binding sites on hair follicles. By occupying these receptors, it prevents DHT from triggering the follicle miniaturization process without significantly lowering systemic hormone levels in the rest of the body. The 5% variant of this is preferred.

Dutasteride:

Dutasteride is a potent 5-alpha reductase inhibitor that works by blocking both Type I and Type II enzymes, which are responsible for converting testosterone into dihydrotestosterone (DHT). By reducing systemic and scalp DHT levels by up to 90% or more, it effectively halts the miniaturization of hair follicles and creates an environment where regrowth is possible. Take 2.5 - 3mg minimum.

View attachment 4866791
(Pic courtesy of SlayerJonas)

3. Acne

Accutane (Isotretinoin):

Accutane (Isotretinoin) addresses acne at the source by permanently shrinking the sebaceous glands and drastically reducing the amount of oil (sebum) they produce. This prevents pores from clogging and creates an inhospitable environment for acne-causing bacteria, often leading to long-term or permanent remission of severe breakouts.


4. Shrunken Balls

HCG:

Instead of waiting until the end to fix atrophy, you should run HCG throughout your entire cycle to prevent your testicles from shrinking in the first place. Use a dose of 250iu every other day to provide a constant signal to the Leydig cells, keeping them functional and full-sized so that your eventual recovery is much faster and more reliable.

Now there is alot of misinformation going around when it comes to this stuff. It artificially gets your balls to start making testosterone, it does not restart your whole complex natural system of different glands and hormones communicating with each other to make your balls produce testosterone (it is known as the HTPA or hypothalamic–pituitary–gonadal axis). That is why it should not be used during PCT. People who use this as their PCT feel great while they are using it but as soon as they come off will have low T because they never restarted HTPA. (via jefferson)

5. Testosterone Suppression

PCT - Nolvadex:

On Testosterone Enanthate, you want to wait 2 weeks after your last injection to let the drug clear before you start your PCT. For a 12-15 week cycle, the standard is a 6 week PCT taking 20mg of Nolvadex daily.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Debunking Common Natty Copes:

1. "They still have to work just as hard."​

Cope: "Steroids only work if you train like a beast; otherwise, they do nothing."
Reality: Research (notably the 1996 Bhasin study) showed that men taking 600mg of Test-E who did not work out gained more lean muscle mass than natural men who did work out. While gear makes hard work more effective, it also makes laziness more productive than natural effort.

2. "It's all water weight."​

Cope: "They just look big because they’re bloated; it’ll all disappear once they go off."
Reality: While certain compounds (like Dbol) cause water retention, steroids primarily drive myofibrillar hypertrophy (actual muscle fiber growth). Furthermore, HGH and certain steroids can cause hyperplasia, the splitting of muscle cells, creating permanent structural changes that a natural lifter can never achieve.

3. "The 'Natty Limit' is higher than people think."​

Cope: If I just train for 20 years and eat perfectly, I can look like [insert fake-natty influencer].
Reality: The Fat-Free Mass Index (FFMI) is a reliable ceiling. Most humans naturally top out at an FFMI of around 25. Influencers who are 220lbs and 8% body fat are statistically impossible to achieve without exogenous hormones.

4. "I’d rather have 'real' muscle."​

Cope: "Natural muscle is denser and stays better than "fake" steroid muscle."
Reality: Muscle tissue is muscle tissue. The contractile proteins (actin and myosin) are the same. While an enhanced lifter will lose the "super-physiological" fullness when they come off, they will still retain a higher baseline of muscle than they ever could have reached naturally due to increased myonuclei count.

5. "Steroids will give you 'Roid Rage' and turn you into a monster."​

Cope: "Every gear user is a ticking time bomb of aggression."
Reality: While certain compounds (like Trenbolone) can increase irritability, "Roid Rage" is largely a myth for those with stable mental health. Most users on a sensible Test/HGH cycle report feeling better, more confident, and more stable due to optimized hormone levels.

6. "They have no discipline/took the easy way out."​

Cope: "Going to the gym naturally is "harder" and shows more character."
Reality: Enhanced lifters often train harder and longer because their recovery allows for it. Being "natural" is often a choice of health and longevity, but it doesn't automatically grant a "discipline" trophy. Taking 500mg of Test doesn't make the 405lb squat any lighter.

7. "Their organs are going to explode tomorrow."​

Cope: "Anyone on gear is going to die by age 40."
Reality: While the risks are real (left ventricular hypertrophy, kidney strain), many users mitigate these through frequent blood work, ancillary drugs (like HCG and AI), and cruising on TRT doses rather than constant blasting. It’s a calculated risk, not a guaranteed death sentence.

8. "It’s all about the 'Lighting and Angles'."​

Cope: "That guy only looks big because of the gym mirrors and a pump."
Reality: No amount of lighting can fake the 3D "cannonball" delts and "traps-to-ears" look that comes from a high density of androgen receptors in the upper body, features that are the "dead giveaway" of an enhanced physique.

9. "I'll catch up to them eventually."​

Cope: "If I stay natty for 10 years, I'll be bigger than the guy who did a 16-week cycle."
Reality: A single, well-executed cycle can put more lean mass on a frame than 3 - 5 years of perfect natural lifting. The "gap" doesn't close, it widens every year the other person stays enhanced.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________

TL;DR:
Steroid downsides: Preventable minor stuff.
The Upsides:
View attachment 4867007View attachment 4867038

Ascend TODAY.

Your perfect life awaits you, your hot wife, your high paying job, the admiration from everyone you meet no matter what, your future kid's respect for you. All of this may be few cycles away, will you dedicate your life this one time? Or will you let the opportunity pass and some other man do it and live your dream life while you rot away?

The world is yours.

Tagging High Iq Users: @SlayerJonas @Chad @Zagro @Sadist @Sayori how'd I do? Thread was a little rushed due to Jonas' current pinned thread being posted right as I was working on mine although.

This was my 1000th post special, hope you enjoyed!

I dont wanna lose bone density on AI 200mg per week btw

 

[someonesomeday]

great thread, do you think decanoate on top of that would be a good idea or overkill (definitely want to maintain fertility).
Also should you be on lower doses of test and slowly go up before this cycle or hop right into it from natural levels (sub 400 in my case).