Can free will logically exist with an omnipotent God?

[Heretic]

Can he make a stone that he can't lift?


Also, under my conception of things, free will does not exist.

It could not exist LESS with an omnipotent god.

Yea ngl I don't even bother thinking about this stuff cause it's pointless, literally impossible to answer

 

[Incelforeever]

What does Saturn prove here?, being same shape doesn’t mean anything , elaborate on your point you said they look similar? And then what does that prove? Misread this point maybe
The Kaaba is cubic, Sure, other figures are cubic, since cubes are typically represented as a trapping shape or existential limitaiton from modern media exposure

Saturn hexagon, bunch of energy fields going counter clockwise just like muslims do around the kabba. Muslim turn around the Kabba 7 times, which if i remember correctly was what the pagan tribes that were there already doing. 7 is the number of saturn in astrolgy.

Dont worry its not only u guys, christian and jews worship saturn/Chronos/Osiris unknowingly really

 

[ICXCLuvr]

Yea he's omnipotent he can make anything

He can lift a rock that even he can’t lift apparently

 

[Incelforeever]

Can he make a stone that he can't lift?


Also, under my conception of things, free will does not exist.

It could not exist LESS with an omnipotent god.

(So w god, yeah it could exist, without god, no.)

With god free will can exist or cannot? im sorry im confused

 

[Deleted member 86562]

Can he make a stone that he can't lift?

do you know what the theistic definition of omnipotence is? it is not the ability to do anything like a lot of people think

 

[Incelforeever]

and whats your argument for that assertion?

Hmmm, God knew everything would do before he created us. U have an illusion of free will, u might think oh i can choose to eat healthy or unhealthy but that was already determined before ur existence

 

[Incelforeever]

do you know what the theistic definition of omnipotence is? it is not the ability to do anything like a lot of people think

As long as the logic holds omnipotency is pretty much having the capablity to do anything. Making a rock he cant lift isnt logical because its a negetive so they are wrong by using that argument

 

[Deleted member 86562]

Hmmm, God knew everything would do before he created us. U have an illusion of free will, u might think oh i can choose to eat healthy or unhealthy but that was already determined before ur existence

why does foreknowledge = determinism?

 

[Troo_]

But if he omnipotent he knows ur outcome and everything u will do before even creating u so how is free will even possible logically?

Depends on definition of free will which also has been debated since beginnings of man.

Though, an example I’m thinking off the top of my head could be how meteorologists use instruments to predict the weather for tomorrow and week after, but that doesn’t mean they caused it to be that way per se.

 

[Incelforeever]

why does foreknowledge = determinism?

because he doesnt just know, he created u. If i happen to know ur future as a fellow human being i still didnt decide ur choices because im not ur creator. If im a creator and i make a human being and already have the knowladge of every choice he would make before creating him free will cant logically exist

 

[Incelforeever]

Depends on definition of free will which also has been debated since beginnings of man.

Though, an example I’m thinking off the top of my head could be how meteorologists use instruments to predict the weather for tomorrow and week after, but that doesn’t mean they caused it to be that way per se.

Meteorologiests didnt create weather

 

[ccwb]

Saturn hexagon, bunch of energy fields going counter clockwise just like muslims do around the kabba. Muslim turn around the Kabba 7 times, which if i remember correctly was what the pagan tribes that were there already doing. 7 is the number of saturn in astrolgy.

Dont worry its not only u guys, christian and jews worship saturn/Chronos/Osiris unknowingly really

I heard this argument, yes pagans used to circle around THEIR OWN STATUE Islam came and changed the act and changed lots of its rules, one of them is to wear a modest wear during it unlike pagans doing it naked also what does that change if Muslims spin 7 times like pagans ( pretty sure they didn’t spin 7) but they worship god instead of pagan statues
Saturn and bunch of energy fields going counter clockwise = Muslims worship Saturn??
There’s literally no link not even close or slight, only thing is it happens to be similar I mean most planted energy field are moving clockwise, hurricanes also move clockwise
Does this mean Muslims worship hurricanes?

 

[Deleted member 86562]

because he doesnt just know, he created u. If i happen to know ur future as a fellow human being i still didnt decide ur choices because im not ur creator. If im a creator and i make a human being and already have the knowladge of every choice he would make before creating him free will cant logically exist

but by your logic acts would depend on knowledge not the other way around

 

[Incelforeever]

I heard this argument, yes pagans used to circle around THEIR OWN STATUE Islam came and changed the act and changed lots of its rules, one of them is to wear a modest wear during it unlike pagans doing it naked also what does that change if Muslims spin 7 times like pagans ( pretty sure they didn’t spin 7) but they worship god instead of pagan statues
Saturn and bunch of energy fiends going counter clockwise = Muslims worship Saturn??
There’s literally no link not even close or slight, only thing is it happens to be similar I mean most planted energy field are moving clockwise, hurricanes also move clockwise
Does this mean Muslims worship hurricanes?

If u wanna ignore the obv lines that connect ur religion to saturn worship its fine, i mean u probably grew up muslim and its hard for people to let go of things they have been thought since they knew themselfs.

What am saying is, paganisem has infiltrated all of the abrahamic religions. Its hidden but its there. U guys are meant to think u worship the creator but u unknowingly worship false deities which is not ur fault but its up to u to do research at this point

 

[Incelforeever]

but by your logic acts would depend on knowledge not the other way around

That doesnt make sense because he created u and all the circumstances and desires that would make u act a certain way.

An example would a child born into a dysfunctional familiy where he gets abused from a young age and grows up to be criminal

 

[Daddy's Home]

There are no gods bro, so these conversations are pointless..

They're just fairy tale characters to make those on the left feel better about the fact that they'll never be like those on the right, It's that simple..

 

[ccwb]

If u wanna ignore the obv lines that connect ur religion to saturn worship its fine, i mean u probably grew up muslim and its hard for people to let go of things they have been thought since they knew themselfs.

What am saying is, paganisem has infiltrated all of the abrahamic religions. Its hidden but its there. U guys are meant to think u worship the creator but u unknowingly worship false deities which is not ur fault but its up to u to do research at this point

Elaborate on which point I missed, correlation isn’t the same as causation, ur simply saying attributes equal identity, paganism is simply not worshipping god
There’s literally no reason for the prophet to come and break the stones that were worshipped note he was given money and power in exchange for him to leave his dawah, he refused and said wallah if you bring the sun in my right and moon on my left I won’t leave the dawa till my soul is taken
Now back to your argument you said the Muslims spin around the Kaaba like Saturn field for example, that means Muslims are worshiping almost every planet since most rotate in clockwise motion, that proves nothing since it’s an attribute, not identity, surface similarity don’t equal equivalence, and saying pagans used to spin over an object, it’s an object THE WORSHIPPING IS DIRECTED TO IT, Muslims spin over the Kaaba worshipping Allah TOWARDS IT, not to it, there’s a difference here, giving similar identities mean nothing it would be the same saying Muslims are pagans when they literally aren’t simply cuz they worship Allah through the Kaaba not pray to Kaaba, and no one can prove otherwise

 

[Deleted member 86562]

That doesnt make sense because he created u and all the circumstances and desires that would make u act a certain way.

right your logic in that reply does not make sense. Right now you are already presupposing a deterministic worldview

An example would a child born into a dysfunctional familiy where he gets abused from a young age and grows up to be criminal

and how does creating circumstances = being cause of act

 

[Troo_]

Meteorologiests didnt create weather

The same way God didn’t lead us into certain situations. It would be dishonest and without accountability to say God lead us to having a prison sentence because he knew we were going to murder someone so therefore it’s His fault.

Even the story of Jonah is about how God willed for Jonah to spread the word, but out of Jonah’s free will, he fled (and then got swallowed by the big fish for 3 days and etc).

God knew this would happen, but why would God will Jonah to do something, then will Jonah to not do that same thing?

God is unchanging, just, and not contradictory. He’s not going to will one thing while willing the direct opposite despite his foreknowledge. This also applies to things like “why can’t God kill himself and cease to exist? Can we lift an unliftable item?”

These are contradictory therefore it cant apply to Him

 

[Incelforeever]

There are no gods bro, so these conversations are pointless..

They're just fairy tale characters to make those on the left feel better about the fact that they'll never be like those on the right, It's that simple..

View attachment 4691232

Its not pointless, its healthy enertiament for me. saying "there are no gods" is just as pointless because clearly the world started somehwere, and we know logically for something to get started there has to be a creator. Or maybe the universe was created by itself which breaks logic but that ig u can also say who created god which also breaks logic but hey both of them are possibliteis

 

[ccwb]

Its not pointless, its healthy enertiament for me. saying "there are no gods" is just as pointless because clearly the world started somehwere, and we know logically for something to get started there has to be a creator. Or maybe the universe was created by itself which breaks logic but that ig u can also say who created god which also breaks logic but hey both of them are possibliteis

There’s a huge problem in your last argument, your using a self contradictory premise/category error
How can god have a creator if he is the creator, your implying rules of creation to the creator himself
If he is god he’s necessary being and all powerful all one, if he had a god then he’s not a god to begin with, that’s a category error made by low iq atheists

 

[Incelforeever]

right your logic in that reply does not make sense. Right now you are already presupposing a deterministic worldview

and how does creating circumstances = being cause of act

If u build a building with a weak link in an area with reguler earthquakes and the building collaps its not the buildings fault.

Now lets look at human beings, an omnipotent god, created u, everything about u, the baseline of ur personality ur intellect ur genetics are from him. He also chose the circumstences u would be born into and knew everything that would happen to u before creating u.

Where is the free will in that? every choice u would made was already determined

 

[Daddy's Home]

is just as pointless

It is not pointless, because throughout human history there have always been certain forms or gods that have come and gone, all of them relative, even the Christian or Muslim god or whatever, who just happen to be contemporary with us, are relative and will disappear, and maybe others will replace them or maybe not

Why? Because such ideas/concepts exist only in the human mind; they are merely imagination; they do not exist in nature, in other animal species, etc.

Gods have always come from the human mind, and have always disappeared sooner or later from the human mind throughout history..

In the 2000s, people imagined that by now we would have flying cars, and yet we still don't have them, but instead we have drones for ex

Ideas come and go, but imagination will always be there to give birth to new ideas or concepts..
Christians always say that Jesus had to, or is going to, come back to earth, raise the living and the dead, and other scenarios like those in apocalyptic movies

Obviously, that hasn't happened yet, and it won't happen lol

 

[Incelforeever]

There’s a huge problem in your last argument, your using a self contradictory premise/category error
How can god have a creator if he is the creator, your implying rules of creation to the creator himself
If he is god he’s necessary being and all powerful all one, if he had a god then he’s not a god to begin with, that’s a category error made by low iq atheists

Just u like u can create something, while being created. God is only all powerful if u attruibute omnipotency to him which not everybody does.

The word God just means power, thats all. God called the israelites "gods" in the bible. U can have a god and still be a god, just not an omnipotent god.

This convo is about free will existence with a omnipotent god

 

[ccwb]

It is not pointless, because throughout human history there have always been certain forms or gods that have come and gone, all of them relative, even the Christian or Muslim god or whatever, who just happen to be contemporary with us, are relative and will disappear, and maybe others will replace them or maybe not

Why? Because such ideas/concepts exist only in the human mind; they are merely imagination; they do not exist in nature, in other animal species, etc.

Gods have always come from the human mind, and have always disappeared sooner or later from the human mind throughout history..

In the 2000s, people imagined that by now we would have flying cars, and yet we still don't have them, but instead we have drones for ex

Ideas come and go, but imagination will always be there to give birth to new ideas or concepts..
Christians always say that Jesus had to, or is going to, come back to earth, raise the living and the dead, and other scenarios like those in apocalyptic movies

Obviously, that hasn't happened yet, and it won't happen lol

Why are you comparing creatures with inferior pre frontal cortex development to us tho??

 

[Deleted member 86562]

If u build a building with a weak link in an area with reguler earthquakes and the building collaps its not the buildings fault.

Now lets look at human beings, an omnipotent god, created u, everything about u, the baseline of ur personality ur intellect ur genetics are from him. He also chose the circumstences u would be born into and knew everything that would happen to u before creating u.

Where is the free will in that? every choice u would made was already determined

its a circular argument. it only follows that humans have no agency if determinism is true, which you havent established

 

[ccwb]

Just u like u can create something, while being created. God is only all powerful if u attruibute omnipotency to him which not everybody does.

The word God just means power, thats all. God called the israelites "gods" in the bible. U can have a god and still be a god, just not an omnipotent god.

This convo is about free will existence with a omnipotent god

God in religion overall is a diety with power as a central attribute but definitely more attributes like oneness, there’s no where where it says god is only power, btw your using a source where the authors are unknown and it’s not proven who wrote it and not even in the original language Jesus spoke, highly unreliable, while also I’m arguing with you in Islamic POV, cuz it’s the only religion where the book is in its main language and known who wrote it and under who and who gave the teachings

 

[Incelforeever]

The same way God didn’t lead us into certain situations. It would be dishonest and without accountability to say God lead us to having a prison sentence because he knew we were going to murder someone so therefore it’s His fault.

Even the story of Jonah is about how God willed for Jonah to spread the word, but out of Jonah’s free will, he fled (and then got swallowed by the big fish for 3 days and etc).

God knew this would happen, but why would God will Jonah to do something, then will Jonah to not do that same thing?

God is unchanging, just, and not contradictory. He’s not going to will one thing while willing the direct opposite despite his foreknowledge. This also applies to things like “why can’t God kill himself and cease to exist? Can we lift an unliftable item?”

These are contradictory therefore it cant apply to Him

But than why would God even tell Jonah to speard the word if he knew he would flee? Its simple, because that was the only way it was gonna happen which he already knew before creating him. So there is no free will in there.

It wouldnt be dishonest, it would just be realistic with an omnipotent God. The person who got a life in prison didnt choose to be which already shows there is no free will.

If im an architact and i design a building with a weak link in an area with earthquakes and the building falls the fault is on me

 

[ccwb]

But than why would God even tell Jonah to speard the word if he knew he would flee? Its simple, because that was the only way it was gonna happen which he already knew before creating him. So there is no free will in there.

It wouldnt be dishonest, it would just be realit with an omnipotent God. The person who got a life in prison didnt choose to be which already shows there is no free will.

If im an architact and i design a building in a weak link in an area with earthquakes and the building falls the fault is on me

Yo also search up “born believers” book it’s a study
Mirin that book ngl

 

[Incelforeever]

its a circular argument. it only follows that humans have no agency if determinism is true, which you havent established

An omnipotent god makes determnism true. U can argue god is not omnipotent if u want but than u should step out of this convo

 

[Deleted member 86562]

An omnipotent god makes determnism true. U can argue god is not omnipotent if u want but than u should step out of this convo

"it just is!" youre not arguing with me, youre just asserting things

 

[Incelforeever]

God in religion overall is a diety with power as a central attribute but definitely more attributes like oneness, there’s no where where it says god is only power, btw your using a source where the authors are unknown and it’s not proven who wrote it and not even in the original language Jesus spoke, highly unreliable, while also I’m arguing with you in Islamic POV, cuz it’s the only religion where the book is in its main language and known who wrote it and under who and who gave the teachings

Im saying the word "god" means power. Its pointless to argue from an islamic pov since its a copy of the original monotheism faith but even than. Allah is his title in islam. In the israelite faith he has a name and a couple titles. Yahweh, Elohim etc

 

[Incelforeever]

"it just is!" youre not arguing with me, youre just asserting things

define omnipotency

 

[Deleted member 86562]

define omnipotency

The ability to actualize all genuine potencies

 

[ccwb]

Im saying the word "god" means power. Its pointless to argue from an islamic pov since its a copy of the original monotheism faith but even than. Allah is his title in islam. In the israelite faith he has a name and a couple titles. Yahweh, Elohim etc

It js dosent, your source is an distorted changed book who we don’t even know wrote it, ask anyone u see on street research all say god is a all powerful necessary existence
Obviously can’t be more than 2 since it’s all powerful having a partner demotes that to powerful to not powerful, Islam is literally the evolution of TRUE Judaism and Christianity not the nowadays Judaism and Christianity where it’s devided and the books are changed

 

[Latinolooksmaxxer]

Yea but theres no personal god

 

[Incelforeever]

It js dosent, your source is an distorted changed book who we don’t even know wrote it, ask anyone u see on street research all say god is a all powerful necessary existence
Obviously can’t be more than 2 since it’s all powerful having a partner demotes that to powerful to not powerful, Islam is literally the evolution of TRUE Judaism and Christianity not the nowadays Judaism and Christianity where it’s devided and the books are changed

The truth doesnt evolve nor change. U thinking ur copy cat religion is the "right one" is very very cocky

 

[ccwb]

The truth doesnt evolve nor change. U thinking ur copy cat religion is the "right one" is very very cocky

Well it’s not if it’s the only truly preserved one while others are js changed
How’s it a copycat if it’s evolution, the gospel sent to Moses was to his people the one to Jesus to his people and Quran is for prophet people and so on, the biggest proof is some rules were used in other times but Quran came and stopped it and gave other rules, simply cuz humanity standards and norms change but it stopped at Mohammed peace be upon him since god knew that rules given to him will be enough thus labeling him as “the khatem al anbiyah” the “ring” of the prophet symbolizes the ring used to signature the end of sometime

 

[Incelforeever]

Well it’s not if it’s the only truly preserved one while others are js changed
How’s it a copycat if it’s evolution, the gospel sent to Moses was to his people the one to Jesus to his people and Quran is for prophet people and so on, the biggest proof is some rules were used in other times but Quran came and stopped it and gave other rules, simply cuz humanity standards and norms change but it stopped at Mohammed peace be upon him since god knew that rules given to him will be enough thus labeling him as “the khatem al anbiyah” the “ring” of the prophet symbolizes the ring used to signature the end of sometime

The people of Moses and the people of Christ are the same people. They didn’t get different gospels, the truth doesn’t change. Christ came to fulfil the law not change it. They didn’t get bible is not a religious book it’s a history book. Islam quite frankly is just a copy.

We already found the Dead Sea scrolls from the Israelites which are quite ancient and are the last remaining thing from them and we can see that for most part, the translations have been pretty accurate.

Now the Quran is a book that connects itself to the bible, yet apparently was given to a people who have nothing to do with the promise of god through Abraham, Issac and Jacob. Interesting

 

[ccwb]

The people of Moses and the people of Christ are the same people. They didn’t get different gospels, the truth doesn’t change. Christ came to fulfil the law not change it. They didn’t get bible is not a religious book it’s a history book. Islam quite frankly is just a copy.

We already found the Dead Sea scrolls from the Israelites which are quite ancient and are the last remaining thing from them and we can see that for most part, the translations have been pretty accurate.

Now the Quran is a book that connects itself to the bible, yet apparently was given to a people who have nothing to do with the promise of god through Abraham, Issac and Jacob. Interesting

It says gospel not bible, show me where Quran says bible, it clearly says gospel, nonetheless the people are the same they js had different sins thus other rules came to prohibit these things they did

 

[Deleted member 159029]

title

if it does exist and we do have actual free will then we are Gods, and nobody else.

 

[Incelforeever]

The people are not the same jfl. Ur people are not from the seed line of Jacob. Moses wrote/got the Torah, “laws”. The prophets wrote the bible. The laws never changed, new rules were never created cuz God doesn’t change

It says gospel not bible, show me where Quran says bible, it clearly says gospel, nonetheless the people are the same they js had different sins thus other rules came to prohibit these things they did

 

[Incelforeever]

if it does exist and we do have actual free will then we are Gods, and nobody else.

Pretty much

 

[ccwb]

The people are not the same jfl. Ur people are not from the seed line of Jacob. Moses wrote/got the Torah, “laws”. The prophets wrote the bible. The laws never changed, new rules were never created cuz God doesn’t change

rules can definitely change it depends on era more specifically

 

[Incelforeever]

rules can definitely change it depends on era more specifically

True doesn’t change, god doesn’t change. “Nothing is new under the sun”

 

[ccwb]

True doesn’t change, god doesn’t change. “Nothing is new under the sun”

Truth dosent, but for example why would god forbid weed for people who don’t use
When the new people use he will reveal the law

 

[Deleted member 283745]

title

Yes?

 

[Incelforeever]

Yes?

elobrate

 

[Deleted member 283745]

elobrate

hmas aquinas teaches in the Summa Theologiae (I, q.83, a.1), man possesses free choice because he is rational, and reason is ordered toward the apprehension of the good under diverse aspects. God’s omnipotence doesnt compete with human freedom, bc he causes things according to their nature thus He moves the will in a way that preserves its freedom rather than destroying it (I, q.105, a.4). In classical theology divine causality is not coercive but foundational:

 

[Incelforeever]

hmas aquinas teaches in the Summa Theologiae (I, q.83, a.1), man possesses free choice because he is rational, and reason is ordered toward the apprehension of the good under diverse aspects. God’s omnipotence doesnt compete with human freedom, bc he causes things according to their nature thus He moves the will in a way that preserves its freedom rather than destroying it (I, q.105, a.4). In classical theology divine causality is not coercive but foundational:

That nature itself is created by god. The circumstances where ur nature oprates and expresses it also are also created by God.

I should not have used "omnipotent" for god in this thread. Thats my mistake