Dr. Ting just revolutionized the MSE. Now, far greater expansion is possible.

[schneebly]

Dr. Ting does something now with the MSE where he connects it to the posterior teeth with power chains and torques them in. Now, you don’t even need a crossbite to get MSE, and if you do you can still keep expanding after it’s corrected. Ting says he can get up to 6mm extra skeletal expansion this way.

@spark
@ascentium
@MSEFM
@Aeons
@nelson
@SPFromNY914
@PrestonYnot

 

[Jason Voorhees]

Bookmarked tbh

 

[AscendingHero]

@retard

@AscendingHero

 

[Jason Voorhees]

@Mongrelcel

 

[Deleted member 13197]

What was once a myth will now become a reality

 

[Mongrelcel]

Was lack of expansion ever a problem for the MSE tho? When the limit for expansion is screw drag

The biggest issue of MSE is that you need to get another procedure for the lower jaw IMO

(not that this improvement isnt great or anything)

 

[Luke LLL]

Idk how this is gonna make skeletal expansion better

 

[Jason Voorhees]

Was lack of expansion ever a problem for the MSE tho? When the limit for expansion is screw drag

The biggest issue of MSE is that you need to get another procedure for the lower jaw IMO

(not that this improvement isnt great or anything)

.MSE usually is a cope tier surgery for fwrd growth and ipd after ur teenage years but now due to greater expansion it could be possible

 

[Mongrelcel]

.MSE usually is a cope tier surgery for fwrd growth and ipd after ur teenage years but now due to greater expansion it could be possible

No, MSE is not any good for the things you mentioned.

MSE is great for narrow lower third, its great when your bizygo is more narrow than your temples. So you can get MSE + some lower third widening.

MSE will not change your IPD - and the change to FWHR will be minimal. Imagine how much wider your face would have to be to cause a significant change in fwrd.

Also, IMO, bad fwhr usually comes from a long midface, not narrow face - not to mention that narrow face and long midface are usually correlated.

Chances are that if youre a recessed subhuman with narrow face, then you WILL have long midface. How could you not?

 

[Deleted member 12218]

Saves a lot of time that would have gone into Invisalign to torque the upper teeth back inwards, I wish my ortho knew about this before I got MSE.

 

[Jason Voorhees]

No, MSE is not any good for the things you mentioned.

MSE is great for narrow lower third, its great when your bizygo is more narrow than your temples. So you can get MSE + some lower third widening.

MSE will not change your IPD - and the change to FWHR will be minimal. Imagine how much wider your face would have to be to cause a significant change in fwrd.

Also, IMO, bad fwhr usually comes from a long midface, not narrow face - not to mention that narrow face and long midface are usually correlated.

Chances are that if youre a recessed subhuman with narrow face, then you WILL have long midface. How could you not?

I was specifically talking about the MSE+FM combo but yea I agree

 

[pizza]

No, MSE is not any good for the things you mentioned.

MSE is great for narrow lower third, its great when your bizygo is more narrow than your temples. So you can get MSE + some lower third widening.

MSE will not change your IPD - and the change to FWHR will be minimal. Imagine how much wider your face would have to be to cause a significant change in fwrd.

Also, IMO, bad fwhr usually comes from a long midface, not narrow face - not to mention that narrow face and long midface are usually correlated.

Chances are that if youre a recessed subhuman with narrow face, then you WILL have long midface. How could you not?

now imagine a person that the lower third is the half of zygos,let's say I get bsso for projection, what can I do to correct a narrow lower third?

 

[Mongrelcel]

now imagine a person that the lower third is the half of zygos,let's say I get bsso for projection, what can I do to correct a narrow lower third?

Im not very knowledgeable, but sounds like you need more bone mass so try looking into wraparounds
I dont think that some osteotomy can give you that much mass if its so narrow

 

[Mastermind]

Impressive

 

[Jason Voorhees]

Im not very knowledgeable, but sounds like you need more bone mass so try looking into wraparounds
I dont think that some osteotomy can give you that much mass if its so narrow

What do you think about bollards btw

 

[randomvanish]

why not just get sarpe ?

 

[Mongrelcel]

What do you think about bollards btw

I think its the best way to facepull so far, I've heard that the screws used in bollards are too weak for the force required tho

 

[MSEFM]

Just to clarify, the idea is that you could over expand skeletally to get greater opening of the nasal airway and maybe greater midface changes with greater disruption to perimaxillary sutures for protraction and then use these power chains to pull the teeth back in and meet up with the lower arch easier. Combined with the upcoming MSE model that will allow swapping out of the expansion mechanism for over 12mm, it might be helpful in some cases. I don't think I would have benefitted from this much transverse expansion in my case. 10mm seems to have been enough to get my maxilla wider than my mandible, but who knows, maybe I would have seen more aesthetic changes with a little more expansion.

 

[conquistador]

what exactly do you gain with these improvements? Didnt MSE already give you enough expansion?

 

[spark]

I think its the best way to facepull so far, I've heard that the screws used in bollards are too weak for the force required tho

@Sergio-OMS said he does up to 350g which is quite a bit. Would be interesting to know how far can one go with the weights.

It might not be a big deal at all actually when one can get the same direction pull from the MSE arms to lower teeth braces and load it up with some more weights.

 

[Sanguinius]

Thank you for posting this. Excellent intel

 

[N1c]

6mm extra skeletal forward or lateral?

 

[spark]

6mm extra skeletal forward or lateral?

I guess lateral which doesn't even matter does it? You could easily get another MSE installed and get it done that way...

 

[Deleted member 8758]

My 2nd MSE pushed out my right molar out of sync with my other teeth (pushed a few mm laterally.) I wouldve benefited from it and not have had to undergo corrective invisilign sessions delaying my next MSE installation.

 

[ascentium]

What was once a myth will now become a reality

i made this morph FYI

 

[ascentium]

Just to clarify, the idea is that you could over expand skeletally to get greater opening of the nasal airway and maybe greater midface changes with greater disruption to perimaxillary sutures for protraction and then use these power chains to pull the teeth back in and meet up with the lower arch easier. Combined with the upcoming MSE model that will allow swapping out of the expansion mechanism for over 12mm, it might be helpful in some cases. I don't think I would have benefitted from this much transverse expansion in my case. 10mm seems to have been enough to get my maxilla wider than my mandible, but who knows, maybe I would have seen more aesthetic changes with a little more expansion.

did you get any paranasal filling?

 

[ascentium]

.MSE usually is a cope tier surgery for fwrd growth and ipd after ur teenage years but now due to greater expansion it could be possible

I have mse. I took pre-expansion measurements of ipd at optometrist, and will take post expansion measurements at optometrist. T_0 = 67mm.

 

[JimmyDreamsOfZygos]

What a time to be alive

 

[MSEFM]

did you get any paranasal filling?
View attachment 1115792

Maybe? When I look at my face head-on in the mirror, I feel like that area seems a little less hollow, but if I try to compare profile photos, there isn't an obvious increase in the convexity of my cheek.

 

[RealSurgerymax]

6mm extra skeletal forward or lateral?

I guess lateral which doesn't even matter does it? You could easily get another MSE installed and get it done that way...

LOL You will never achieve close to 6mm FORWARD with mse/face puller

 

[spark]

LOL You will never achieve close to 6mm FORWARD with mse/face puller

What about bollards + MSE-braces elastics both at the same time?

If Ting is able to get 2mm of forward growth in an adult male using a shitty Delaire type facemask it should be possible to get significantly more than that using the above described method. Especially when overexpanding thus keeping the suture open for much longer (with mandibular width later corrected with a mandibular surgery like IMDO).

 

[RealSurgerymax]

What about bollards + MSE-braces elastics both at the same time?
View attachment 1116021View attachment 1116020

If Ting is able to get 2mm of forward growth in an adult male using a shitty Delaire type facemask it should be possible to get significantly more than that using the above described method. Especially when overexpanding thus keeping the suture open for much longer (with mandibular width later corrected with a mandibular surgery like IMDO).

Not gonna happen

not to mention the downward growth youd get from such a ridiculous thing

 

[spark]

Not gonna happen

not to mention the downward growth youd get from such a ridiculous thing

how can you get a downward growth from a CCW causing bollard plates?

not to mention even the MSE arms-braces elastics caused a CCW:

 

[RealSurgerymax]

how can you get a downward growth from a CCW causing bollard plates?

not to mention even the MSE arms-braces elastics caused a CCW:

Your wishful thinking is beyond unrealistic. If you want over a millimeter of movement and counter-clockwise rotation you need SURGERY. End of story.

 

[scalpel]

Your wishful thinking is beyond unrealistic. If you want over a millimeter of movement and counter-clockwise rotation you need SURGERY. End of story.

Don't bother, these kids desperately want to believe they'll be able to get meaningful movement of skeletal structures from nonsurgical interventions in their late teens and early 20's. They don't care about the facts.

 

[spark]

Your wishful thinking is beyond unrealistic. If you want over a millimeter of movement and counter-clockwise rotation you need SURGERY. End of story.

Another one:

 

[RealSurgerymax]

Another one:
View attachment 1117769View attachment 1117770View attachment 1117775View attachment 1117772View attachment 1117773View attachment 1117774

Surgical.

And totally ridiculous approach. Just do the plated lefort 1 and get more advancement and dont deal with the unpredictability of this

 

[spark]

Surgical.

And totally ridiculous approach. Just do the plated lefort 1 and get more advancement and dont deal with the unpredictability of this

What is surgical? SARPE yes but the protraction was done via tads. LeFort 1 only moves the bottom part of the maxilla and thus never provides an ideal result.

 

[RealSurgerymax]

What is surgical? SARPE yes but the protraction was done via tads. LeFort 1 only moves the bottom part of the maxilla and thus never provides an ideal result.

There is a surgical disjunction in your example at the LeFort I level

 

[spark]

There is a surgical disjunction in your example at the LeFort I level

That is the SARPE that was done.

MSE can substitute the SARPE procedure and as long as the sutures successfully split results should not differ to this SARPE case.

 

[RealSurgerymax]

That is the SARPE that was done.
View attachment 1117831View attachment 1117832

MSE can substitute the SARPE procedure and as long as the sutures successfully split results should not differ to this SARPE case.

yeah.... you are under the wrong impression... to a pretty extreme extent.

Results wont be nearly the same as far as the forward movement.

Anyone who tells you otherwise is either scamming you, or they are in deep denial that they need surgery.

 

[spark]

yeah.... you are under the wrong impression... to a pretty extreme extent.

Results wont be nearly the same as far as the forward movement.

Anyone who tells you otherwise is either scamming you, or they are in deep denial that they need surgery.

What is your reasoning? You didn't explain yourself. Why would MSE not work as much as SARPE in this case? How come Won Moon achieved this without any skeletal anchorage while using MSE?

I am not anti-surgery per se. The bollards have to be installed via surgery. I am anti-lefort since it doesn't address the cheekbones at all whatsoever.

 

[N1c]

What is your reasoning? You didn't explain yourself. Why would MSE not work as much as SARPE in this case? How come Won Moon achieved this without any skeletal anchorage while using MSE?
View attachment 1117928

I am not anti-surgery per se. The bollards have to be installed via surgery. I am anti-lefort since it doesn't address the cheekbones at all whatsoever.

Indeed lefort 1 only adresses the lower maxilla and people who have it often end up with a monkey look

 

[Winter_Soldier]

@spark 10mm possible with this??

 

[spark]

@spark 10mm possible with this??

10mm of forward growth with bollards type protraction in adults? Likely completely impossible but what do I know? Not many doctors protract with anything beyond a delaire type facemask. This guy did the case with TADs I showed before:

JUAN C PEREZ VARELA Ortodoncia (@dr.juan.carlos.perezvarela) • Instagram photos and videos

9,293 Followers, 3,867 Following, 1,534 Posts - See Instagram photos and videos from JUAN C PEREZ VARELA Ortodoncia (@dr.juan.carlos.perezvarela)

www.instagram.com

@Sergio-OMS has used bollards before but even he said we shouldn't expect more than a few mms.

 

[spark]

Indeed lefort 1 only adresses the lower maxilla and people who have it often end up with a monkey look

Yeah lefort is a joke you need custom cheekbones implants even Coceancig who seems to dislike functional appliances warns his patients about it:

 

[Deleted member 8758]

The real question is wrether protraction is giving full maxillary movement or just dentoalveolar movement.

 

[N1c]

The real question is wrether protraction is giving full maxillary movement or just dentoalveolar movement.

Probably a bit of both

 

[Deleted member 13779]

can't wait to shove that terrifying hellraiser saw trap in my mouth

 

[eduardkoopman]

can't wait to shove that terrifying hellraiser saw trap in my mouth

Forward growth like this, or death.